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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Crumble on Thursday 15 January 09 23:20 GMT (UK)
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According to the IGI Mary Good of Diss had a daughter (Eliza) in 1807 and two sons William 1814 and Alfred 1821 and I'm wondering whether Bastardy Bonds might have been issued. Was a register of Bonds kept?
Also I wonder whether there is any significance in the 7 year gaps between children!!! (Do they coincide with any military campaigns?)
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I don't know about Norfolk, but Lincolnshire Archives certainly has a record of Bastardy Bonds and I have them on microfiche. I found one for my 4 x g.grandmother and strangely it is not my 3 x g.grandfather, who was illegitimate, but another earlier child. ::)
Perhaps you could contact the Norfolk Archives and ask for their help.
Lizzie
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There are a number of different bastardy papers that might help, bastardy bonds, bastardy examinations, bastardy orders and bastardy warrents. However, survival of these papers is patchy and many parishes do not have any surviving papers at all. If there are any they will be amongst the parish deposit for Diss at the Norfolk Record Office. You can search the parish deposit online at:
NROCAT (http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/Dserve/public/searches/nroadvanced.htm)
Just put PD 100 into the catalogue reference field and you can then search through to see if there are any bastardy papers listed.
If you don't find any all is not lost, as there may be records of monies collected from reputed fathers and then paid out to the mothers in the Overseer's accounts books. So while you are searching the parish deposit keep an eye out for any of those from the right date.
Finally, some bastardy orders are recorded in the quarter sessions books. However, as you can see if you don't find bastardy papers, then you have quite a search ahead of you and of course, if the mother and father came to a private agreement about money then there will have been no official record anyway.
Good luck, it is a lot of work, but it can pay off. Oh and just a final thought, it may be worth having a look at the actual baptism as sometimes the reputed father was named in the register. I don't know whether the transcribers would have added that information to the IGI or not.
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Hi
Quite often baptisms may note a reputed father. Like "Mary Smith daughter of Jane Smith and reputed father Thomas Jones". etc.
Ben
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i found this thread very interesting, as i though i had come to a stop after finding a illegitimate relative, will now keep digging and see if i can find out more.
thanks
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Hi
Often aprish officials wanted the mother to name the putative father. Often though, the man admitted paternity and either married the mother or paid maintenance.
If he had admitted fatherhood then wed the mum then I doubt that there would have been any action taken before the wedding if he admitted it as if he did then the poor law quite often need not get involved.
Ben
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hi,
in this case the mother didnt marry, she had 5 illegimate children over a period of 10 years, i believe 2 of them to the same man, 1 to a different man. she died at the age of 73, a pauper and still unmarried
no bastardy bonds remain for the parish, so i thought i had met a dead end, now it seems there may be avenues to explore.
thanks all
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Hi
Finding the father of an illegitimate child is not as impossible as people think. I did with Thomas Roberts, an ancestor of mine who fathered my 2xgreat gran out of wedlock but married the mother as soon as he could and I have found more evidence on Thomas as well. This was in the 1860s though. Before 1834 bastardy bonds and churchwardens account or parish baptisms are the best.
Ben
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my illegimate child was born in 1805, what are my chances? with no bastardy bonds for the parishm what we be the best road for me to take next.
thanks in advance
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Hi
I take it that you have found the baptism? What makes you think that she had 5 illegitimates by 2 fathers? Have you found any likely candidates for fathers?
Ben
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hi,
i have found the baptisms for all 5 children.
when the eldest got married he used the name marshall as a middle name on his marriage cert.
on the second childs baptism winn was his middle name
on the fourths child bapptism it say reputed father john marshall - same as the middle name for the first child.
the baptism records for my ancestor is unreadable, i have a copy of the bishops transcript which doesnt give any details or clues to a father.
your opinion appreciated.
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Hi
That seems very interesting. Quite often mothers would give the fathers surname as a middle name if the baby was illegitimate. This was often a way if the father disputed paternity or he couldnt marry the mother. Sometimes that was a way of exposing the alleged father.
Where did the baptism take place?
Ben
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the baptism took place at stibbard.
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Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any surviving overseers' or churchwardens' accounts for Stibbard from the right period. You have the name of at least one father already, have you checked the children's marriage certificates to see if they named a father? You can try the quarter session records to see if there is any record of a bastardy bond there, you can also look to see if John Marshall left a will where he may have mentioned his illegitimate children. If men recognised their offspring they sometimes gave apprenticeships to them or counter-signed the apprenticeship indenture, but it doesn't look as if any apprenticeship papers have survived for Stibbard either, so this avenue is no help for you this time.
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Hi
The options described above are an avenue to research. It might even be an option to check newspaper records. Some do survive for this period.
Ben
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hi,
many thanks for all your advice.
lt seems though all records for stibbard haven't survived, so it looks as if my chances are running out. do the quarter session records remain for stibbard?
lydia's first child was baptised john waller in stibbard in 1798, although when he married in 1840, he used the name john marshall waller, he was an inkeeper and his abode was stibbard, do you think i will be able to find anything from this?
lydia's second child was baptised thomas winn waller in yarmouth in 1800.
lydia's third child was baptised ann marshall waller in stibbard in 1801, baptism records stated reputed father as john marshall.
lydia's forth child margaret in yarmouth in 1802
fifth child richard waller in stibbard 1805, this is my ancestor who father i am trying to trace, could it be all children born stibbard are to john marshall??...
i have found a birth of a john marshall in stibbard in 1745, died stibbard 1828 aged 82. lydia was born 1772, so if this is the john marshall he was 27 years older than her. i cant find a marriage of a john marshall in stibbard.
all opinions on this matter appreciated.
thanks
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Some records have survived for Stibbard, but as with most parish deposits, it is largely a matter of luck if the relevant records for the period you are interested in have survived. Quarter Session records are court records for an area, rather than just a parish, so they are quite consuming to search, but can be worth it. There is good survival of the quarter sessions books, but you will need to go the NRO to search them.
I would be happy that John Marshall is the father of child 1 and 3 at least. Have you looked to see if he left a will? Was he married to someone else - you haven't found a marriage, but did he have other children baptised in the parish? Did they leave wills that may mention half brothers and sisters? As well as checking who was named as father in the illegitmate children's marriages, who were the witnesses - any links there? Second child had the middle name Winn, is there any evidence of a man named Winn in the parish?
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Hi
The options described above are an avenue to research. It might even be an option to check newspaper records. Some do survive for this period.
Ben
This is interesting. I was not aware/have never noticed any newspaper reports that might shed light on an illegitimate child's parentage. Have you seen articles that might help with this in newspapers then? Would be interested to know more.
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Hi
I have found a few references in newspaper reports where a woman has had an illegitimate child. Sometimes the weekly quarter sessions are mentioned which can include bastardy orders. The Norwich Mercury survives for this period I think.
Ben
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Interesting. Of the reports that you have seen, were they actually reporting the birth of an illegitimate child or was an illegitimate child mentioned as part of a report about some other incident? If the former, would it be fair to say that these reports were about persons of note, rather than ordinary village people?
As you say the Quarter Sessions are reported (not weekly though, 4 times a year, hence the name 'quarter') but I have never noticed orders made being listed in the reports - will keep my eyes open for this now though. Don't think the Norwich Mercury would help on this occasion though as the children were born in Stibbard and Yarmouth, Norfolk Chronicle would be a better bet.
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Hi
I saw a report for 1863 which noted about a woman in Sussex concealing the birth of her illegitimate child from the birth registrar or something like that. This was from the microfilm of a Sussex newspaper in Brighton. Although many people concealed the pregnancy itself by going away to an aunt or other relative and having the birth there.
Ben
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I see. Of course different newspapers will have had different ideas on what they did or didn't report on. My experience of wading through Norfolk papers is that this route is unlikely to help the poster. I will check the reports of the quarter sessions though to see if orders were mentioned and will report back. :)
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hi,
i was searching NROCAT today, and some inquest reports name the reputed father of women who had died during childbirth or babys who had died shortly after birth.
i had no luck finding any names i wanted but thought i would mention it for future reference.
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That is useful, thanks.
It makes sense when you think about it, as women who refused to fess up to the father's identity during pregnancy were commonly pressed for the info by the midwife during labour. They were told it was in case they died in childbirth, but of course the information was swiftly passed onto the parish officials.
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Hi
Often a midwife refused to assist if the mother didnt say who the father was. But if he admitted it and the mother agreed then there was no problem.
Quite often parents moved away after the birth of an illegitimate child. If for some reason they couldnt marry at the time of the birth but could do soon after, then some fled their previous home residence to escape the past. Also, to protect their baby if they didnt want the little one to know that it was illegitimate.
Ben
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hi again,
something tells me my john marshall could have been already married, as we all know they were pushed into a marriage if possible after the birth of an illegimate child.
lydia had at least 2 to john marshall, wey no marriage?
also found out her first child baptised john marshall waller, after getting married dropped the waller and went by the name john marshall himself. he left stibbard and was a farmer in little ryburgh, is this near stibbard. also noted there are a lot of marshalls in great ryburgh, is this also close to stibbard?
thanks again in advance for all your help
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Hi
My great, great grandmother was born out of wedlock. Her mother married the father soon after the birth.
The father was still married when the mother became pregnant, although she died into the mothers pregnancy, although late into the mothers pregnancy.
His previous wife was ill for a long time before she died according to the death cert.
The mother Mary Ann was 7 months pregnant when the fathers wife died. Once they were free to marry, the father acknowledged paternity. From this evidence it does seem as if he was the father and that he was seeing Mary while his wife was ill, probably for comfort.
Quite often the father was married when an illegitimate baby was born but he often wed the mother when he could. A lot of parishes pressured men to admit paternity.
Ben
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well as we know he never married lydia, as she died age 73, single and a pauper. whatever the reason, i dont know, but 2 of her five illegimate children seem to be john marshall's.
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Stibbard is right next to Little Ryburgh and Great Ryburgh is the next parish over.
I would think it is a pretty good bet that John Marshall was already married, particularly in view of the age difference between him and Lydia.
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thanks, just got to try and find a marruage for him now and dig a bit into his family history, see if i find any clues.
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just been checking my notes and richard married in 1925.
his first son he named john, could this be an indication maybe that his father was john marshall.
opinions appreeciated.
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Could well be, he might have been the father of all of them, but I think to be sure you need to follow up the steps we have already mentioned regarding marriage certificates, wills etc.
If there was an ongoing relationship between them, then they may well have come to a private arrangement for him to provide financial assistance, in which case the parish would not have had to get involved and so no bastardy order been made.
By the way, I was searching newspapers today and checked two quarter session reports. There was no mention of bastardy orders being made. There were reports of appeals against orders, but there was no mention of what kind of order they were (could just as easily been removal orders as bastardy order). They mostly read something along the lines of: An appeal against an order made by the parish of X was upheld/overturned etc. So I really don't think a newspaper search would be worth your while.
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Hi
If an unmarried woman became pregnant and the father wasnt yet free to marry the mother but could do soon even if it had to be just after the birth, either through the death of a sick wife, impending divorce or coming back from the Army, then the mothers family may have been told this and also the local authorities, and if the father was planning to marry the mother as soon as he could once the baby was born, then there probably wouldnt have been any need to have a maintenance or affliation order made.
If he couldnt marry the mother due to a very well wife, then he might even come to a private agreement but if there was no chance of the father marrying the mother, then it may seem likely that an order may have been made or if meither a private agreement or court agreement could be made then that is quite often when the mother passed the baby off as a sibling or the baby given up for adoption informally.
Ben
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What also happened reasonably frequently was that the father would wait to see if the mother and child survived the birth before doing the decent thing. However, we know this was not the case here.
If there was no private arrangement made for maintenance and the mother refused to name the father (for which she could be imprisoned if she had been subject to a bastardy examination) so an order could be made, then it was down to the parish (or poor law union after 1834) to provide financial assistance. This is why the parish went to such lengths to discover who the father was.
Although no doubt some women did pass illegitimate children off as siblings, have them adopted etc. Actually a great many women had illegitmate children right in the parish where they had always lived and then went on to have more or to marry the father or another man entirely. I am not so convinced that this Victorian idea of great shame and disgrace was really the reality for 18th and 19th century ordinary village folk, because there were a heck of a lot of them at it!
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Hi
I think it also may have depended on how strict the mothers father was as well.
Ben