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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: luckydog on Monday 12 January 09 15:56 GMT (UK)
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One of my ancestors is John McGonigal Christie born 02 September 1822 in Liberton , his father was John Christie originally from Monimail in Fife and his mother was Henrietta Stewart originally from Galloway . He married Bridget Forbes who was born about 1815 and they had a son Daniel Mcgonigal Christie born 03 April 1841 . I would like to find where and when they were married , when exactly they died , who her parents were , and where she was born . All research on Scotlands People has drawn a blank . Any help , clues or facts verygratefully received .
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Hi Luckydog
I think you must have a typo in there - you have your man marrying before he was born ;)
I don't know if you are aware that Daniel and Donald are sometimes used as being interchangable (like Jean/Janet/Jane).
There is a record on FreeCEN in the 1841 census in Liberton for a John (55), Hennerita (50) and John (15) at Sunnyside Gardens. Given the rounding of ages in effect for that census there is a good chance that is your family. Unfortunately it doesn't give much more information, just that the males were Ag Labs.
Kirsty
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Hi Luckydog and Kirsty, :)
I'm not at all sure John and Bridget did marry. As you have probably discovered yourself, there is no sign of a marriage with these names on either the IGI or SP. Further to that, John is still staying with his parents in Edinburgh by the 1851 census (along with a sister, Janet) - and he still shows as single. :-\ Let me know if you need the original entry of this from SP.
However, I think I have found John's death. He died 28th December 1868 at the Royal Infirmary, but his usual residence was 173 Causewayside. His address on the 1861 census was no. 97 Causewayside. His parents are given as John Christie, gardener (dec.) and Helen Christie m.s. Wick [?] (also dec.). Maybe a mistake by Alexander Good, the man who registered the death.
hume
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Also, can you tell us where you found the 3rd April date for Daniel's birth or baptism? I can't see it under Christie or Forbes on SP. :(
Any census returns for him too would be useful for finding Bridget's roots.
hume
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Thanks Hume , I am now going to go back and reinvestigate my sources for the info I have. I also have seen the 1851 census , what it shows certainly adds to the confusion . Not sure where the date for Daniels birth came from but I will track it down . To add to the mix there are middle names I forget to mention before . Daniels middle name was McGonigal as was his fathers . There is a possibility I am mixing two families here . There is also a record of Daniels death , 17th April 1906 in the City Poorhouse , Edinburgh .His wife is given as Elizabeth McCartney .
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Hi All
There is a marriage for Daniel Christie aged 19, boilermaker to Elizabeth McCartney in 1860 in St Patricks Cowgate, following the form of the Catholic church. Parents listed as John Christie and Bridget Christie ms Forbes. John is described as a gardener. This is probably where Luckydog got Daniel's birth year from. In 1871 this Daniel is now shown as a dealer in old clothes, possibly living next door to his father-in-law.
There seem to be a few John Christie's who are gardeners in Edinburgh at this time. I've found a John marrying a Violet Forbes in 1851. These two had a son Daniel in 1858 and on the 1861 census John is listed as a journeyman gardener....the same occupation as the John Christie that Hume found in 1851 aged 30 who was living with his parents John and Henrietta Christie.... ???
Tracey
Just had a thought....Daniel was married in a Catholic Church so it's possible that his parents were Catholic? Would a Catholic marriage in c 1840 be on SP?
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I have gone through my records and confirmed the links and think I an safely dismiss the John Christie/Violet Forbes connection . Had come across them before and spent ages trying unsuccessfully to link them to my lot . Having the same name , same profession and naming sons Daniel is either very coincidental or there is some as yet hidden link . The Catholic marriage is very intriguing . They were very young when they got married and I have no record of his parents being catholic . St Patricks is in the Cowgate in Edinburgh and was historically the main church for the Irish poor living in Edinburgh . Elizabeths father and possibly mother were born in Ireland . St Patricks also had a reputation for being fairly fundamental in its approach to life . Will contact the Catholic Archives and see if they hold any relevant records although I have a feeling a lot of their records went to the Archive at West Register House in Edinburgh .
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Hi
Elizabeth's parents were John McCartney and Helen Barclay on her MC and according to the census record i looked at for Daniel in 1871 he was living next door to them at 133 Cowgate, which i assume was a tenement. Its shows that John and Ellen were born in Ireland as well as their son John but Elizabeth was born in Edinburgh.
John Snr, John Jnr and Daniel Christie were all listed as dealers in old clothes, the same occupation that John Snr claimed on Elizabeth's MC.
Let us know how you get on.
Tracey
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Just had a thought....Daniel was married in a Catholic Church so it's possible that his parents were Catholic? Would a Catholic marriage in c 1840 be on SP?
No, it wouldn't although I have read there are plans to make RC records (pre-1855) available on SP. :)
I still can't see Daniel or his mum on the 1841/1851 census ... wondering if she's married someone else and Daniel is listed under his stepfather's name? Mother's remarriages (or changes of name in general) aren't always recorded on certificates.
hume
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Hi All
Haven't figured it out, but could this be Daniel in 1841? Unless shown, everyone born in the county. The census that year was on 6 June:
John McGonegal 35, gardener journeyman b. Ireland
Bridget McGonegal 30 b. Ireland
John McGonegal 11
James McGonegal 4
Sarah McGonegal 3
Daniel McGonegal 3 Months
Thomas Moran 19 Shoem J (?shoemaker journeyman), b. Ireland
Betsy Moran 17
Address: Bells Wynd, Edinburgh New North
Monica :)
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Hi
Intriguing...but if this is him it doesn't explain why he registered his marriage in 1860 as Daniel Christie with parents John Christie and Bridget Forbes ??? The 1851 census has Daniel McG living with parents at 7 St James Court.
Tracey
ADDED Bridget McGonegal in 1851 now has an age of 50....
MCGONIGAL John Head M M 48 Gardener's Labourer Ireland - -
MCGONIGAL Bridget Wife M F 50 Ireland - -
MORAN Thomas Stpson U M 28 General Labourer Ireland - -
MCGONIGAL John Son U M 20 Gardener Journeyman Midlothian - Edinburgh
MCGONIGAL James Son - M 13 Message Boy Midlothian - Edinburgh
MCGONIGAL Sarah Dau - F 11 At School Midlothian - Edinburgh
MCGONIGAL Daniel Son - M 9 At School Midlothian - Edinburgh
MCFARLANE Marion Visitr U F 50 Sick Nurse Argyllshire - Kilchoman
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Hi Tracey
Did the 1860 MC show Daniel's parents as alive or deceased I wonder?
Monica
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The 1861 census is interesting:
John McGonigal 50, R(L?)and Labourer b Ireland
Daniel McGonigal 19 , R(L?)and Labourer b Edinburgh
Elizabeth McGonigal 18, daughter in law, dress maker b. Edinburgh
Thomas McLauchlan 37, Journeyman Tailor, lodger b. Ireland
Address: 105 Grassmarket, Edinburgh New Greyfriars
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Elizabeth McCartney's birth is showing as a submitted entry on IGI as 1843 in Edinburgh so age above would fit.
Added: The 1851 census for Elizabeth I would think from the details you found Tracey on the MC:
John McCartney 35, Costermonger, b. Ireland
Helen McCartney 29, b. Ireland
Steven McCartney 13, b. Ireland
Elizabeth McCartney 9, b. Ireland
Helen McCartney 8 Months, b. Edinburgh
Address: Maconnochies Close 44 Cowgate, Edinburgh St John
Costermonger was a Street seller of apples, other fruit and vegetables www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm
Luckydog, there is an 1855 birth cert showing for a child to John and Helen on IGI:
MARY MC CARTNEY Birth: 23 NOV 1855 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
1855 was the first year of official registration in Scotland and the certs ran over to two pages on the register. For births, it should include date and place of parents' marriage, ages, occupation, where the parents were from and how many children they'd had (alive or deceased). A good one for you to look at if you haven't already. With Irish families, it may be the only clue as to where they came from in Ireland :)
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Hi Monica
1860 MC made no mention of Daniel's parents being deceased.
Tracey
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Blimey Monica :o :o :o
Just checked the MC again.....guess what address Daniel gives as his residence 105 Grassmarket!!
Why would he change his name to Christie for his MC and then his wife use McGonigal for the census and then all go back to Christie for the 1871 census???
Tracey
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Sorry Tracey - lots of questions from me!
Do any of the address we have on the censuses match the addresses given on the 1860 MC by Daniel and Elizabeth (it would help if I could find the 1861 census for the McCartneys which I'm struggling to do!)
Added:
I think this might be them with father John showing as Owen:
Owen McCartney 45, Hawker Clothes, b. Ireland
Ellen McCartney 40, b. Cannongate
John McCartney 20, brewer, b. Edinburgh
Ellen McCartney 10, b. Edinburgh
Mary McCartney 5, b. Edinburgh
James McCartney 2, b. Edinburgh
Address: 133 Cowgate, Edinburgh Old Greyfriars
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Sorry Tracey - posts crossed over (RC is back on go slow :-\)
That's great that we have a match ;D No idea why Daniel would change his name though. Only a few months later he is registering the birth of first born under Christie:
STEVEN MC CARTNEY CHRISTIEBirth: 16 JUL 1861 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
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ok...here goes
Daniel's address on 1860 MC shows 105 Grassmarket and Elizabeth's address shows 133 Cowgate.
1861 census you found them living at 105 Grassmarket as McGonigals and in 1871 they are living at 133 Cowgate as Christies. In each census they are living with/next to their inlaws.
Tracey
ADDED lol see what you mean about the cross posts ;)
It looks like Owen McCartney on the MC too...just checked it again.
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These two families certainly liked to play around with their names ;D
The birth registrations for the McCartney children post 1855 on IGI show father as John...
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John McGonigall died age 67 in 1867 in City Poor House Edinburgh. He is down as a 'widower' (no wife's name) and no parents' names :'(
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Think i've got something!
Found a death for a Bridget McGonigal in 1860, lived at 105 Grassmarket :D. Wife of John McGonigal.... :D...daughter of James Christie and Helen McFarlane Christie.
Could this be where Daniel gets the Christie from and maybe why he changes his name?? Less "Irish" than McGonigal maybe or are they trying to hide something??? I still dont get why he would list his parents as John Christie and Bridget Forbes Christie....i think this is maybe one we will never know? :-\
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Clever you Tracey ;) At last a reference to Christie!
I'm pooped now Tracey, off to bed, night night 8)
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Thanks to everyone who has replied to my original post . Still trying to make sense of it all by looking at records on SP but the site is continually timing out and I have made my third complaint about the poor service . Anybody else have problems with SP . I have confirmed that my broadband connection and speed are working fine so it is definitely a fault with SP .
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Since the release of the 1911 and the renewed interest in tracing family I have found most sites operating slower probably to the increased demand (Ancestry and IGI/Family Search to name another two) :-\ Hopefully things will calm down in the weeks to come ;) Let us know what you find from your searches!
Monica
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Ladies,
you are talking about my GGG grandfather, Daniel Christie. Would love to exchange notes with u. Have been wondering myself why they changed names. The name Christie stuck in my line.
Caroline
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Hi Caroline
It's your cousin Mike in Scotland !!. Have lost your email address so have not been touch. If you post a few more messages on this board we will be able to exchange personal messages.
As for the Macgonigal/Christie conundrum I have concluded that the children of John Macgonigal and Bridget Christie were all christened with the surname MacGonigal ( with a number of variants ) . I found the info on the Catholic Parish Records.
Part of the birth records indicates the legitimacy of the children. Any child with the prefix " lawful " is legitimate and with no prefix not legitimate. Only one of our lot is given as lawful and the birth date is in the middle of the range of birth dates so it is difficult to be sure if John and Bridget were legally married. This may explain why over time the children were given or took the surname of their mother. Another reason might be because of anti-Irish feeling in Edinburgh which would restrict work and housing opportunities. Changing the name to a more Scottish one would help.
I have no marriage record for John and Bridget but upcoming online releases of Catholic marriage records may help.
John and Bridget had the following children ( name spellings as given on official records ) :-
John Maconegal born 17th November 1829
Ann McGunigal born 30th January 1834 ( recorded as lawful daughter )
James Macgonegal born 5th May 1836
Sarah McGunigal born 28th January 1839 ( mother recorded as Bridget McGunigal rather than Christie )
Daniel McGunagle born 7th March 1841.
I have much more info which I can give you by email. Have also made a breakthrough with our great-grandfather Francis Hooper
Mike
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AHA! I did wonder if it was u. All these sign in names don't help!
I had, as it happens. just got the urge to open up my tree & poke a bit this week. Ended up on the Christies and thought Id check the Catholic registers & yes there they were!
I googled McG to Christie & up comes this thread. !
Anyhow, Ive also looked for entries for the two children she has called Moran. Cant find deaths for them. Cant find a marriage for her to a Moran but they may have been in Ireland. Cant find a death for a Moran in Midlothian to fit. Since Betsy was born in Scotland I wondered if Bridget's husband had died here. Cant see anything obvious in the census's for the 2 Moran children after 1851.
With that entry for John McG in the poorhouse...I wonder why not one family member came to witness him. Or why was he not living with family? Seems such a shame!
Anyway.. I must away & get ready for a days work. Have a great one & love to all.
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and then I'll post this so I get my three postings to allow PM :)
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I found a reference to a John Christie in the death notice of William Christie from Almora, Liberton. Wiliam and John Christie were partners in 'J. Christie & Sons' Clothiers' 11 St Andrews Square, Edinburgh.
If anyone has information on James Christie Milne, please let me know.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/10225/page/153/data.pdf
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Hi Catherine
Welcome to RootsChat :)
From the link you added, James Christie Milne is referred to a clerk in Edinburgh.
What do you have for him? Could this be his family www.geni.com/people/James-Milne/6000000084226446930
There is a James Christie, boarding with a Young family at 9 Murieston Cres, Edin. He shows as born c 1866 in Edinburgh, aged 25 and a clerk.
Monica
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Hi Catherine
I think you have this info already? This is your tree? www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/156093258/person/162059723393/facts
Birth here https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F7HJ-B61
What info is it you are looking for in particular regarding James?
Monica
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You don't seem to have the 1881 census on the family tree. This looks like James in 1881:
Alex Milne 49 Physician & Surgeon M. D. b. Montrose
Chas B Milne 16 Apprentice Wine Merchant
James C Milne 14 b. Edinburgh
Constance E A Eiswaar 21 step daughter b. Staffordshire, Tiemtall (spelling?)
Jane Hall 16 servant
Address: 104 Lauriston Place
Monica