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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Shining Light on Saturday 10 January 09 00:54 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for any information about Charles William Sadler and his brother Walter William Sadler and their service during World War 1.
Charles William, born 1896, joined the Royal Innerskilling 5th Dragoon Guard until it was dismounted then transferred to the Princess Charlotte Regiment in the Rifle Brigaide where he became a Sergent Instructor for Artillery Field Guns.
Walter William (or Bill as he was known), born 1898, was in the Middlesex Machine Gun Regiment.
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Welcome to Rootschat and to the Armed Forces boards!! :D :D
First of all though, I'm a little confused by your post!! :o :o
May I ask where did you get the Regt details from?? Have you confused a number of medal cards bearing the same name??
It all appears somewhat garbled to me I'm afraid!! ;)
Are they "family oral history"??
5DG did not become "Inniskilling's" until 1922 when they merged with the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoon Guards.
It is such that a number of cavalry squadrons of the Regt became dismounted and fought in the trenches. They became mounted again towards the end of the war and they did not lose their nags fully until they became mechanized with tanks in the 1930s.
You may find this interesting...
http://www.rdgmuseum.org.uk/history.htm
Princess Charlotte of Wales' (Royal Berkshire) Regt were an infantry Regt in their own right as was The Rifle Brigade
https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/royalberkshire.php
http://www.greenjackets-net.org.uk/rb/branch.htm
It is highly unlikely that he could have been an artillery instructor with either Regt as they were both infantry, and did not have access to the large guns of the artillery. The Royal Artillery themselves dealt with them, esp field guns!
Do not be confused by the "Brigade" bit of the Rifles...It was a "normal" Regt!!
As for the Middlesex Regt...They were an infantry battalion, and in WW1 the machine gunners were transfered to The Machine Gun Regt.
There was a machine gun bn of the Middx in WW2, 1/7th bn "The Die Hard Gunners", some int on whom can be found here...
http://www.freewebs.com/middixgunners/history.htm
If you could be kind enough to post everything you have (places of birth etc) and from whence you gleaned your int, we can help further!!! :D
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I can see one Charles Sadler with Dragoon connections on the medal index cards on TNA:
Charles W Sadler; Dragoon Guards; D7629; Private.
He is then listed with the Essex Yeomanry and Corps of Dragoons with the same number (?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0595/
Phil
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A possible MIC for Walter W Sadler:
Walter W Sadler; Middlesex Regiment; 3448; Private
Middlesex Regiment; 291178; Private
Essex Regiment; 203853; Private
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0596/
Phil
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Good digs Phil...
Doesn't explain all the weird and wonderful's in the original post though!!
I thought that there may be some fire beneath the smoke in that the Middx chap may have been carted off to the MGC...Doesn't look like that thus far!!
Oh blimey... :o
We do need some more input from shining light ::)
Corps of Dragoons appears to be a generic term when enlisting....My grandfathers attestation sheet has it on prior to him being posted to 6DG.
But why Essex Yeomanry first, and no change of number!! Curiouser and curiouser said Alice...
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I can't see the originals on A***y these days Scrimnet, so the repeat numbering may just be a quirk of TNA.
Both of them do look a bit ordinary though. :-\
I'll be glad when the LLT Divisions pages updated. :D
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Thank you all for your responses to my query. I am sorry it is confusing but I am going on "oral family traditions" and the older family members are getting a bit vague. It would be good to get the real story on these brothers.
Charles William Sadler born 11 May 1896 in Hammersmith registered in Fulham, London
Walter William Sadler registered Jun 1898 in Fulham, London
They both survived the war.
I have tried to attach photos of them in their uniforms but they are too large. I will try and get them reduced in size and post them next time.
Thanks for the websites to check out and for your help so far.
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Hi I have attached the compressed the photos of Charles and William Sadler.
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Well....The first pic of Charles is that of a Gunner, and taken quite close to (the 1930s), if not during (the early days of) WW2! He is wearing Patrol Dress now known as No 1s. He has medal ribbons on, and would expect Pip, Squeak and Wilfred The 1915 Star, The British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
So...he WAS Royal Artillery at some point! Also his records are still with the MOD as he was in post 1922!!! ;D You can apply for his records from them in Glasgow
The second...well...Not a lot here...he is "somewhere out east", ie Salonika, Gallipoli or Mesopotamia...Or even India! He does appear to have a medal ribbon on, which MAY indicate a gallantry award. He is wearing Khaki Drill uniform. Sadly, there are no tribal distinctions to give ANY clue as to his Regt. He has a 1903 ptn belt on...
Errr...thats about it that can be gleaned, but hopefully it will give you some pointers....
Any more pics??? :D :D :D :D ;D
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Re. Charles, I can't see any MICs that fit with artillery connections, so he may have had a break in service.
It would be handy to see the two MICs that I dug out last night........ any takers :D
Phil
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Hi Scrimnet and Forester
Sorry no more photos. Looking at Charles' photo now I see that, yes, he is not young and he would have been 18 when he joined for WW1. According to my sources when the WW1 finished Charles was in the Territorials and when WW2 broke out he joined up again in readiness but did not serve as he was working on essential work building airports etc. He served in the home guard as a Captain. He was a member of the British Legion. I don't know if that will help find him.
Looking at Walter's uniform it is easy to see now that he was not serving somewhere cold in his shorts! I would like to buy the Medal cards mentioned by Forester but checking the BMD I find there are four Walter William Sadlers born since 1880 and more than that for Charles William so is there anyway I can check that this entry is the right Walter or Charles by his birth date and place of birth?
Would where you come from make any difference to what regiment you were in, meaning, if you were from Essex would you be in the Essex Yeomanry? or from Middlesex and be in the Middlesex Regiment? Can I find out where each regiment was fighting e.g. were the Middlesex Regiment somewhere in the East rather than in Europe?
Sorry if these questions are a bit silly, but being a mere female I don't know much about this stuff!! Thanks for your patience and help.
Shining Light
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Dear Shining Light
I don't know if the info I have will assist you!
The Charles W Sadler who served in the Essex Yeomanry was a regular cavalary soldier serving pre-war: D/7629, 5th Dragoon Guards, later 1st Dragoon Guards and then 1/1st Essex Yeo. He proceeded overseas on 15 August 1914 and earned the 1914 Star and bar trio - the famous "Mons Star".
While it is just possible that he is the Charles William Sadler who was born in March 1896, note that he would have enlisted soon before the war broke out (unless he lied about his age on enlistment).
Returning to the cavalryman, he appears in a roll of regulars serving with Essex Yeo in January 1918 and is shown as HQ, 8th Cav Bde [Cavalry Brigade] 17.8.17 - which I assume to be the date he was posted to HQ, 8th Cav Bde. Finally the medal index card shows that he was discharged to class B of the Army Reserve on 7 December 1919.
Are they the same man? Possible but not certain. The unit matches. We know he had a WW1 trio. It would be interesting to see a blow up of the medal ribbons to see if we can spot the rosette on the ribbon of the star. If his service continued into the 1930s, one might expect to see a long service medal ribbon - either regular army long service & good conduct medal or perhaps an efficiency medal if he was in the TA (can anyone tell from the uniform whether he was regular or TA?). I'm not sure whether I can see a fourth ribbon but there might be one lurking there.
As for his brother, the Essex Regiment number indicates service with the 4th Bn (TF) in 1917 or later when 1/4th Bn was in Palestine. However it is common to find men with 4th Bn numbers who had proceeded via the 2/4th or 3/4th Bn to Essex R Bns serving in France. Again, one cannot be certain that they are the same man but the Middlesex link seems persuasive.
I hope this helps
Ian
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Hi Ian
I have just found your reply after not looking at this site for a long time - I don't recall getting notice that you had replied or I would have done earlier.
The Charles William you mention sounds like it could be my grandfather as the story my Father told was that Charles joined the cavalry and did lie about his age. I thought he couldn't have lied to join when war broke out as he would have been eighteen, but if he did join before the war then that would explain the story. Did you get all the information from the medal card? I have tried to find his miltary papers but he doesn't seem to have any regimental number like some of the others on the medal cards. What is the D7629 and could I find his record's using that?
I have attached a blow up of Charle's uniform which I hope might tell us a bit more about him.
Regards
Shining Light
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They appear to be the 3 usual WW1 medals - 1914-15 star, Great War medal and the Victory Medal. The photo dates to post 1920 but you gathered that already.