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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Malshie on Friday 09 January 09 14:13 GMT (UK)
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Could I please be bold enough to ask if anyone has a subscription to Emerald Ancestors they could please give me details i.e. Fathers name of Bride and Grooms
Marriage between James Connor to Ellen McCullough Co Down around 1874/1886
Marriage between Mary Connor to Henry Lenagham Co Down 1874 in Castlewellan Church.
all Catholic from Dunturk/Drumnaquoile
Thanks for any help
malshie
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Hi Malshie,
I cannot give you the fathers but I can give the marriages.
2 Jul 1889 James Connor married Ellen McCullough in Drumaroad R.C. Church, Loughinisland, Downpatrick.
11 May 1874 Henry Leneghan (sic) married Mary Connor in Castlewellan R.C. Church, Kilmegan, Downpatrick.
Regards
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Hi Kingskerswell
That was quick, thank you so much for information greatly helped
Would I be able to order their Marraige Certificate, would you think?
kindest regards
malshie
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Malshie,
Yes it will be possible to order the certificates but I should wait a while as I am sure thatsomeone will supply the fathers' names. If you want them for your records I would have a look through some of the Ulster postings by Aghadowey or Christopher they have advised others on the cheapest way to obtain these and give the web address to apply to.
Regards
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The following are listed on Ancestryireland.com. Several have no father's name stated and you would have to pay £4 per entry to see which one relates to your James or Mary.
Surname Firstname Year Fathers Firstname county
CONNOR JAMES 1889 PATRICK Down
CONNOR JAMES 1889 n/s Down
MCCULLOUGH ELLEN 1889 n/s Down
CONNOR MARY 1874 n/s Down
CONNOR MARY 1874 n/s Down
CONNOR MARY 1874 PATRICK Down
LENEGHAN HENRY 1874 MATTHEW Down
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Thank you Kingsderswell
That is very good advice, yes I would like the information for my records, I have conflicting information that the Connor `father` was named either John or Patrick I am just trying to sort out which one is correct.
I shall wait a little while to see if anything turns up.
Expensive this research isn`t it?
Thanks again
regards
malshie
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Hi Akanex2
Thank you for taken the time to look up on Ancestryireland for me. Shame that not many fathers names have been recorded, I wonder why?
I shall, look at the records I have, to see if anything matches with your findings. £4 per entry does seem a little expensive, especially if I make the wrong choices, and knowing my luck...
I am off to get that very large file out again, fingers crossed I just may find something.
regards
malshie
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Hi Malshie
Thought you might be interested to know that we are distant cousins! I saw your post about James Connor and Ellen McCullough. They were my great grandparents. Your Great Grandmother, Catherine and my great grandfather were brother and sister.
James and Ellen had a son, also called James who was my father's father. I live about 50 miles from the Connor family burial plot at Drumaroad, County Down. Ellen was James second wife. he married three times in the space of ten years (all Drumaroad) so he had a interesting life. I can post you some photos of the plot if you like.
I have looked through your other posts and was fascinated to see the photo of Catherine. She looked very elegant.
Can you pm so we can share the family history.
Look forward to hearing from you.
dunturk
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Hi Dunturk
Thankyou for your message I have sent you a pm
best wishes
malshie
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Hi Malshie
I cant seem to reply to your pm. I'm new to this site. I think I have to post a couple more public posts before i can pm you. I am going to send another public post today so should be ok after that.
I have only recently got into the family tree and there are a few uncles that i need to speak to get more detail of the connor family. Most of what I have done has been on-line backed up by my own knowledge of the family.
I am guessing that James and Catherine's father was called John. I havent obtained birth cert but if you check online at Public Records Office Northern Ireland, they have wills extracts and for a John Connor, they have the following;
Title:
Forename: John
Surname: Connor
Alt Surname:
Date Of Death: 19/04/1885
Date Of Grant: 20/11/1891
Effects: Effects £65
Registry: Belfast
Full Abstract:
Letters of Administration (with the Will annexed) of the personal estate of John Connor late of Drumnaguoile County Down Farmer who died 19 April 1885 at same place were granted at Belfast to James Connor of Drumnaguoile Farmer the surviving Residuary Legatee in Remainder.
Drumnaquoile townland is just beside Dunturk and i think this James may have been my greatgrandfather as by this stage all his siblings, including Catherine would have left to go England or America. Maybe James was the eldest son or had the most interest in the land? Unfortunately we dont have any today!
I dont want to bore everyone with our history and will send you more info (including picture when i can pm) but the other lead i am working on is that we are descended from a group of (presumably) brothers called Nogher (Nogher, O'Connor and Connor are all anglicized versions of the original Irish, O'Conchobair). If you check the freeholders records in the PRONI site you will see James, Charles, Patrick and Edward Nogher are all freeholders in drumnaquoile between 1813 and 1821. My guess is that one of these men is James and Catherine's grandfather, or even greatgrandfather.
I didnt think James my grandfather James had any sibling but the 1901 census for dunturk,drumanquiole and drumaroad is online and there is a Bernard mentioned who was 10 in 1901 (James was 15) but i have no other info on him at present.
PS there is a very good website on Drumaroad at www.drumaroad.com (http://www.drumaroad.com) which gives lots of background on the area where our ancestors lived, up to date info as well as photos of drumaroad chapel etc.
will pm soon
best wishes
dunturk
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Hi Malshie
Forgot to say there is another excellent website on Drumaroad and Clanvaraghan at www.drumaroadhistory.com - it was down for a while but seems to be up and running again. The site is brilliant for anyone with an interest in mid-down. Go into Drumaroad in the index on left hand side and you can even see some of the gravestone inscriptions for drumaroad and clanvaraghan graveyards. You will see a lot of info on the savage family - a very common name in drumaroad area. My grandfather James married two savage sisters (I know that doesnt sound right but you know what I mean!) both sisters - second being my father's mother - died very young.
happy hunting!
dunturk
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Hi Dunturk
I shall send you another pm to see if you have any luck in replying.
Note that you have just got into researching the family, be warned it is very addictive!
Interesting about the Will extract you found for John Connor. Like you say I dont want to bore other posters so I shall answer that one in my pm.
With regard to your grandfather James, I also thought he had no siblings but I suppose we shall find out more in our research!
Regards
Malshie
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Hi Malshie and Dunturk,
I've already 'met' Malshie but I'm glad to meet you Dunturk.
My great grandmother was Margaret Connor, married to James Clark from Cavan, here on Tyneside in 1869. I've been doing some work on Patrick Connor 1846-1931 recently and hope to receive some memorial images from Rapid City South Dakota soon.
I must say it's great to make an 'Irish' connection at last.
Irish Geordie
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Hello dunturk, Malshie and everyone,
I have found the birth record of my relative Ellen Connor in the Drumnaquoile parish register, daughter of James Connor and Catherine Johnson, born in 1868.
James (b.1836) and his brother Patrick Connor (b.1839) were from Drumnaquoile.
James and Ellen were married in Whitehaven in 1866, had their first child in Cumberland, then Ellen was born in Drumnaquoile and the rest of the children were born in Cumberland.
I was wondering if these Connors fit in at all with any of your Connor family? I'd love to find the parents of James and Patrick, and any siblings.
The sponsors recorded on Ellen's record were Edward and Margaret Connor, would you know anything about these people? They appear on other records in the register, too.
I'd be glad for any help,
Kind regards, ReJen
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ReJen
Dunturk & Malshie typed their comments in 2009. Malshie was online March this year but dunturk only ever made the 3 comments above & last logged on in 2015.
Drumanaquoile Townland, Civil Parish of Kilmegan. Castlewellan R.C Parish (baptism registers only from 1859) or Drumaroad (baptisms and marriages from 1853). Ellen baptised in Castlewellan 25 Sep 1868 & born 25 Sep 1868 to James and Catherine Connor nee Johnson.
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633134#page/41/mode/1up
https://irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1868/03423/2255800.pdf
Four R.C churches fell under Kilmegan: Castlewellan, Dundrum (later joined with Ballykinler to form Tyrella), Aughlisnafin and Clanvaraghan/Clonvaraghan
https://townlands.ie/down/kinelarty/kilmegan/seaforde/drumanaquoile
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0404
https://rosdavies.com/PHOTOSwords/KilmeganAll.htm
James and Ellen were married in Whitehaven in 1866
Their father's names and occupations were?
The websites linked by dunturk no longer exist, but a 325 page pdf history of Drumaroad (Loughinisland) is viewable on https://www.scribd.com/document/372222067/History-of-a-County-Down-Townland-Drumaroad
The 1885 Will/Probate Calendar entry transcribed above for John Connor (aged 76), late of Drumnaguoile, though an Adminstation had the Will annexed - so that is now viewable on PRONI's website and names his wife/mistress as Anne, two sons Charles and James, daughters Margaret & Nancy. A Daniel Connor renounced his executorship & sounds like Charles had died before 1891.
https://irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-6693095 Anne died 1889 aged 80.
Half a dozen other John Connors died of a similar age in Downpatrick District 1880's. Also in Clough Sub-District was John Connor from Dunturk aged 77 in 1886 and a John Connor aged 92 died in Drumanaquoile 1902 registered by son John.
Bear in mind in 2009 neither IrishGen nor GRONI websites existed, even the old annual/quarterly indexes to civil BMD's were not online on Ancestry or Familysearch yet, just indexes on subscription sites Emerald Ancestors and Ancestryireland.com (forerunner of Ulster Historical Foundation and RootsIreland). It is clear from Malshie's page 1 comments he did not have all the paper certs then so some aspects/relationships may need revised.
Reply 7 refers to other associated posts by Malshie - click on his name to access, circa page 14 & 15.
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From kingskerswell's comments in reply #1-
2 Jul 1889 James Connor married Ellen McCullough in Drumaroad R.C. Church, Loughinisland, Downpatrick.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10740/5915941.pdf
Fathers Patt Connor and Samuel? McCullough, both farmers.
11 May 1874 Henry Leneghan (sic) married Mary Connor in Castlewellan R.C. Church, Kilmegan, Downpatrick.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11236/8119602.pdf
Fathers Matthew Leneghan a carpenter, and Patrick Connor a farmer.
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Afternoon Jon- ni
Thank you for your message re O’Connor/Connor.
I haven’t been on Rootschat for a very long time.
James Connor and Ellen McCullough were “Dunturk” family line.
James Connor was born in 1851 son of Patrick Connor and Catherine McMullan.
I am sorry I have no information on Ellen.
James and Ellen McCullough had a son James born 1886 in Drumnaquoile, I am not aware they had more children.
Sorry I cannot help with ‘your Ellen’ appears to have a different surname i.e. Ellen Connor daughter of James Connor and Catherine Johnson.
Good luck with your research
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Hello, and thanks for taking the time to reply,
I made an error in my post above - Reply #13.
I wrote:
James and Ellen were married in Whitehaven in 1866
What I meant to write was:
James and CATHERINE were married in Cleator Moor (Whitehaven District) in 1866.
Oops, sorry for any confusion. I am a bit embarrassed!
Yes, Jon_ni, that is the record for Ellen Connor's birth that I was referring to.
Thank you for the links to the local area, it takes a while to become familiar with a new area, I find.
The record for James and Catherine's marriage is from the Cumbria FHS PeopleFinder and states:
CONNOR Jacobum 1866 marriage Spouse Catharinam Johnson Cleator Moor – St.Mary's Cumberland 1866-11-01 - Parish Register [transcribed by CFHS]
So it doesn't list parents.
I have found out from a later census that Catherine Connor née Johnson was from Wexford. So I'm working on the theory its the two brothers - James Connor (b. 1836) and his younger brother Patrick (b. 1839) (who were on the 1871 census when the family were in Cleator Moor), came from Drumnaquoile area.
I think James and Catherine came back to Co. Down to visit or stay and had their second child there.
Their first child, Patrick Connor (born 1867 Cleator) wasn't with the family in the 1871 census, but was
in the 1881 census, so I think there's a possibility he was with family in Co. Down in his younger years.
So, in terms of my search for the two brothers James Connor (b. 1836) and Patrick (b. 1839), it was simply to see if anyone had potential match ups on their tree.
I realise the parish records don't stretch back that far, but I thought it was worth a shot.
I've come to realise that this excellent forum had the potential for members to reach out to members past, and also members in the future, so who knows?
The websites linked by dunturk can be viewed on the Wayback Machine if that is useful to anyone:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060118220452/http://www.drumaroad.com/index2.asp
https://web.archive.org/web/20130303101108/https://www.drumaroadhistory.com/
With kind regards, rejen
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The record for James and Catherine's marriage is from the Cumbria FHS PeopleFinder and states
So partial transcript (no witness names eg perhaps brother Patrick) of the church record from St Mary's, Cleator map https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CUL/Cleator/StMary or its predecessor dedicated to St. Bega really, as the current building was constructed 1872, its predecessor 1853 becoming part of St Mary's schoolhouse & now the site of the car park.
https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/church-of-st-mary-cleator
History & expansion of the Benedictine mission church established 1853 for the Irish Catholic workforce of the local iron ore mines, who previously travelled to Whitehaven each Sunday for Mass - church website. https://www.stmarysandstjosephs.com/history.html
https://cumbriaarchives.org.uk/catalogues-and-guides/guide-church-records/mroman-catholic-church
Thought perhaps you had a paper copy of their civil marriage when asked about a fit with the others. James Connor, Q4 1866 Whitehaven Vol 10b page 904. Would assist in establishing/confirming any matchups now or future & any other siblings civil marriages. I see a John, Patrick & Charles Connor in Drumanaquoile on Griffiths Valuation printed 26 Sep 1863.
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Hello Jon_ni,
Thank you for the links and the tip about the paper copy. Catherine's brother Thomas is also in the 1871 census, maybe also from Wexford, and I'm not making any head way tracking them down, so maybe there's a chance he's on the marriage certificate, and/or James' brother Patrick.
I followed up the Griffiths Valuation and located a cluster of the Connor family together. Its a brilliant tool.
Thanks for your help, rejen
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I followed up the Griffiths Valuation and located a cluster of the Connor family together
I'll use Findmypast or Ancestry for a quick search but they only have the text, if you accessed via AskaboutIreland you will have seen the maps too (with historical to modern slider).
Post Griffiths you can follow changes using the Valuation Revisions on PRONI (they are name indexed on Ancestry with PRONI's images but there are errors & omissions for name changes so browsing by townland then the numerical reference on PRONI is better).
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/revision-books.html
PRONI - How to Use Online Valuation Revision Books
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO8_QhA4VVo
Irish Ancestors: Reverse Genealogy 2, Valuation Revision Books
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs9VAWMTemY
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Hello Jon_ni,
Thank you so much for those links, I have been on quite a journey! I was able to piece together the various names and dates to see how this family of Connors fared over the years and now I have a more concrete list of names and dates to try and work with.
It gave me confidence to look at land valuations on my other Irish leads and one of them led to figuring out where one of my families lived, I'm over the moon!
Your assistance has been much appreciated,
Kind regards, regen
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Bit late now, I should have tipped on PRONI once get to a page of interest rather than trying to read the small central pane, right click and open in a new window, get full size (like on Ancestry).
Convenient that Drumanaquoile is right at the beginning of VAL/12/B/18/24A (1864-1878) at least https://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_Val12b/Large%20JPeg/IRELBEL1D_032/IRELBEL1D_VAL12B-18-24A/IRELBEL1D_VAL12B-18-24A_M_00003.jpg
If change the final digit get previous page with John Connor junior on at map ref 15. The fact that 16 says Pat Connor (Walsh) and 17 Pat Connor (James) is to distinguish them. Also have Pat Connor (Ewd) at 20, who perhaps died 1873 & had a wife Rose and son Edward [named after his grandfather]. Have to turn to Civil deaths to confirm (not all deaths were registered and some changes are due to emigrations). People can have parcels of land in adjoining townlands sometimes one has the house + land and the other just land.
Pat Connor (Edw) at 20 died 1872 aged 68, but Charles Connor at 16 just got too old. Patrick (Walsh) seems to take over 16a, 16b & 17 and have the land revalued 1876 but Charles didn't die till 23 Dec 1878 (aged 80).
The maps on AskaboutIreland are later late 1870's but used as they are neatly printed in red rather than the scrawl of hand annotations on earlier ones. as the numbering tends not to change much in rural areas is fine + Co Down & Co Armagh were the last surveyed.
https://www.johngrenham.com/blog/2018/11/05/more-maps-than-you-can-shake-a-stick-at
The alternative ones & Town plans John mentions are only there for the Republic, PRONI has N.I.'s offline. AskaboutIreland is glitchy sometimes maps don't load for a particular Townland, can always open someone elsewhere and move the view.