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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Rowan Tree on Tuesday 06 January 09 20:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm feeling a little lost with my German ancestors and just don't know how to move forward. I'm hoping someone reading will be able to give me a little help and perhaps point me in the right direction.
I have a Christiana DIEHL and a Maria DIEHL who I believe are sisters (on each woman's marriage certificate they give their father's name as Peter DIEHL).
Christiana is my ancestor and I believe Maria was her sister.
I've found Christiana with the following name spellings:
Christiana or Christina - DIEHL, DAIL or DALE.
Maria appears to have anglicised her Christian name to Mary.
I've found Christiana's place of birth on different censuses as:
Germany or Hesse-Darmstadt or Frankford N K.
Maria was born c. 1821
Christiana was born c. 1830
Maria DIEHL married a Frederick LENZ at Manchester cathedral in 1850.
Christiana DIEHL and her future husband, James LITTLER, appear as witnesses at the marriage.
1851 Census - Bury, Lancashire
Source Citation: Class HO107; Piece 2214; Folio 293; Page 57.
Christiana appears as a lodger with the surname DALE, is unmarried and listed as a musician. Her place of birth is given as Frankford, N K.
Also in the same residence as Christiana is a lodger by the name of Mary Ann DALE with the place of birth Frankford, N K. This is the only place I have seen Mary Ann and do not know if she is related to Christiana. Could she have been a sister or a cousin?
Does anyone know what the "N K" after Frankford might mean?
Also, given on the censuses I've found Christiana's birth place as Hesse-Darmstadt or Frankford does this mean Christina was possibly from Frankfurt?
Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Best Wishes, Rowan :)
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Hi Rowan,
I haven't seen the census image but as you are mentioning Hesse-Darmstadt, then I'm guessing that it could be an M.
Frankfurt in Hessen is called Frankfurt/Main or Frankfurt/M to distinguish it from other Frankurts in Germany.
Did the two girls come to Britain with their father ??
If say it might be worth looking on the TNA site for possible naturalisation papers.
Topic: RootsChat Topics - Naturalisation and Internment
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,157691.0.html
gruß,
Bob
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Hi Bob and thanks for your quick reply,
Sorry to sound completely dense but I'm not sure I'm following you. What do you mean by "...but as it's Hessen, then I'm guessing that it could be an M..."?
Sorry to not be on the ball. Here are the relevant census source citations:
1851 (Christiana and Mary Ann DALE)
Class HO107; Piece 2214; Folio 293; Page 57.
1881 (Christiana LITTLER nee DIEHL)
Class RG11; Piece 3785; Folio 33; Page 16.
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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Hi Kirsty,
I must have edited my reply while you were replying. I think it should be a bit clearer now.
There are at least three Frankfurts in Germany, but Frankfurt/M is in Hesse.
I don't have access to census images, but maybe someone else could post a small part of the image with the birthplace .
Bob
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Hi Bob and thanks again,
I'm completely with you now. I'll have a go at posting a couple of images.
Be back soon, Rowan/Kirsty :)
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Here is Christiana DALE and Mary Ann DALE on the 1851 census:
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Here is Christiana LITTLER nee DIEHL on the 1881 census:
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Marriage certificate of Mary/Maria DIEHL and Frederick LENZ.
12/09/1850
Manchester Cathedral
Groom: Frederick LENZ - 25 - Bachelor - Dyer - 43 Carter Street
Bride: Mary/Maria DIEHL - 30 - Spinster - No occ - 43 Charter Street - Father Peter DIEHL, labourer
Witnesses: Christiana DIEHL and James LITTLER
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Hi Kirsty,
there is a Diehl Family (from around Frankfurt)Forum on Ahnenforum.com. It's in German with some queries/answers in English. It's from 2003 . You could try and post there.
http://www.ahnenforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25&sid=55023a23172e6e0bee3226a344b039fd
Regards, Peonie
Found somebody who has an Ahnentafel (Family Tree) Diehl Darmstadt/Hessen
http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=5896
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Did the two girls come to Britain with their father??
It might be worth looking on the TNA site for possible naturalisation papers...
Hi Bob,
I checked out TNA but didn't find anything unfortunately :( . Thanks for the suggestion though.
I don't know if Maria and Christiana travelled with their father as the only trace of Peter Diehl that I've been able to find is his name on the two marriage certificates. Apart from Maria and Christiana I've not been able to confirm the where-abouts of any other family members although I suspect Mary Ann DALE off the 1851 census living with Christiana is a relation.
Perhaps to two sisters did travel to England with their father plus other family members but I've been unable to prove it thus far. The quest continues.
Many thanks, Kirsty :)
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There is a Diehl Family (from around Frankfurt) forum on Ahnenforum.com. It's in German with some queries/answers in English. It's from 2003. You could try and post there.
Regards, Peonie
Hi Peonie and thanks for your post and links,
I've just been checking out Ahnenforum.com and am going to register with the forum and get posting. I have absolutely no German so I'm hoping the resident German forum members will be patient with me. I think I need to invest in a German phrase book asap ;).
I've just been checking out the IGI and came across the following baptism:
Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
B. 10/11/1829
Bapt. 15/11/1829
Christina Sophia Diehl
Father: Peter Diehl
Mother: Sophia Langsdorf
I'm not sure if there is a possibility if this could be my Christiana. Opinions anyone?
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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Found somebody who has an Ahnentafel (Family Tree) Diehl Darmstadt/Hessen
http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=5896
Peonie,
I've just been trying the second link you gave me but I don't really understand what I'm looking at. Could you shed any light?
Regards, Kirsty :)
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Perhaps the N.K. in the census entry 'Frankford N.K.' means Not Known- in other words she was born in a place called Frankford [Frankfurt] but the country was listed as not known.
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Hi Kirsty,
members of Ahnenforschung offer look-ups and there is a list of books on this page. When you go
down the page to nr.7 "Woody" he has a Family Tree Diehl from Darmstadt/Hessen.
Regards Peonie
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Perhaps the N.K. in the census entry 'Frankford N.K.' means Not Known- in other words she was born in a place called Frankford [Frankfurt] but the country was listed as not known.
Hi, I'd not thought of that possibility so thanks for the suggestion :) .
I have come across "Unknown" on censuses before now so it's certainly a possibility. Hmm, food for thought...
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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...members of Ahnenforschung offer look-ups and there is a list of books on this page. When you go down the page to nr.7 "Woody" he has a Family Tree Diehl from Darmstadt/Hessen...
Thanks for that Peonie,
I'm completely with you now. Hmm, this could prove to be very interesting. I've just PM'ed Svenja with a request for help. I'll be sure to post any new developments.
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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These are also my ancestors and i have searched hem back to leihgestern in Germany
im sure than nk means not known and frankfurt is in hessen darmstadt so that would make good sense. Mary ann dale wouldnt have been the sister with her sister "mary" already married and living in bolton in 1851 with frederick lenz.
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Hi John,
I've just read your post on Ahnenforschung.org and left a brief reply but wanted to reply in full here on Roots.
I'm thrilled to have found a DIEHL descendant. I've noted that there is a public member tree on Ancestry owned by "jonniemather" - Is this you? Are you a son of Margaret LENTZ and John MATHER? If so, we share ancestors through the DIEHL line. We are descendants of the sisters, Maria and Christiana DIEHL.
This is how you get from Peter DIEHL (Maria and Christiana's father) to myself:
Peter DIEHL (4 x great-grandfather)
Christiana DIEHL b. 1830 m. James LITTLER (3 x great-grandparents)
Ellen LITTLER b. 1861 m. William NICHOLSON (2 x great-grandparents)
Jane Ethel NICHOLSON b. 1901 m. Henry PARKINSON (great-grandparents)
James PARKINSON b. 1924 m. Margarete B. FORSHAW (grandparents)
David Harry PARKINSON (dad)
Kirsty (me ;))
On the "jonniemather" tree on Ancestry I see there are dates of birth for Maria and Christiana (plus a brother named Johannes). Also there is a date/place of birth and date of death for a Phillip Peter DIEHL plus a spouse with date/place of birth. Was all this information taken from Family Search?
Looking forward to hearing from you. Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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yes this is my relation, and i am also thrilled to have found a descendant from the German side of our family.
i would love to find out more such as when they all came to England?, why? and if they all came together.
The information i have got together was all from family search and i am fairly sure they are all correct. if you have any more information on our German relatives please write back
regards
John
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Hi Kirsty
In around about way I think our families are connected.
This is my Hoffman family from Germany, also musicians.
Conrad Hoffman born 1775, wife Lucrecia
son Conrad 1811 and a daughter Elisabeth 1819
Elisabeth Hoffman married Casper Lenz age 33 occupation Tailor, in 1852 Manchester Cathedral. Father John Lenz farmer both living 28 Ashley Lane Manchester.
I can't find the death of Casper but in 1861 Elisabeth was living with or married to John Miller in a beer house 32 Nightingale St, Cheetham, Manchester, son Henry was then age 16 but had change his name to Henry Miller and later became Henry Lenz Miller musician.
In 1881 living at Howard St Cheetham, Henry was a Prof. of Music wife Thirza, Lilly 13, Annie 9 and Alfred Henry Long age 3.
I have penciled in Casper's parents were John Lenz and Maria Christina Mihlenhoff, a brother Fredrick Heindrick Lenz born 1816, John Lenz and a sister Louisa Lenz 1820 all the children were born Evengelist, Aplerbeck, Westfalen.
I hope this helps with your family, please if you find any infomation on the Lenz family would you please post it on to me.
Regards
Ann
A very complicated family to follow (for me)
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Yes this is my relation and I am also thrilled to have found a descendant from the German side of our family. I would love to find out more such as when they all came to England, why and if they all came together?
The information I have got together was all from family search and I am fairly sure they are all correct. If you have any more information on our German relatives please write back...
Hi John,
Thanks for your reply and apologies for taking so long to respond.
I'm a little concerned with the results off Family Search. They may prove to be our families but I'm just not sure there is sufficient evidence to say so yet.
I've found the following information through Family Search for Peter DIEHL & Sophia;
Marriage: 28/11/1819 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Groom: Peter DIELL (age at marriage: 31), father: Peter DIELL
Bride: Sophia LANGSDORF (age at marriage: 21), father: Kaspar LANGSDORF
B. 19/05/1820
Bapt. 20/05/1820 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Anne Marie DIEHL
Father & Mother: Peter DIEHL & Sophia LANGSDORF
B. 11/12/1822
Bapt. 12/12/1822 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Death. 16/01/1824
Maria Christina DIEHL
Father & Mother: Peter DIEHL & Sophia LANGSDORF
B. 10/11/1829
Bapt. 15/11/1829 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Christina Sophia DIEHL
Father & Mother: Peter DIEHL & Sophia LANGSDORF
B. 23/03/1834
Bapt. 25/03/1834 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Sophia DIEHL
Father & Mother: Peter DIEHL & Sophia LANGSDORF
I also found the following details off Family Search for a Philipp Peter DIEHL & Sophia;
B. 21/10/1825
Bapt. 23/10/1825 - Evangelisch, Leihgestern, Oberhessen, Hessen
Johannes DIEHL
Father & Mother: Philipp Peter DIEHL & Sophia LANGSDORF
Now, for the above family to be ours the child born 19/05/1820, Anne Marie DIEHL, would have to be your Mary/Maria and the child born 10/11/1819, Christina Sophia DIEHL, would have to be my Christiana. The child born 11/12/1822, Maria Christina, died so this can't be your Mary/Maria.
It would be interesting to see if we could trace any of the other siblings and see if they are in Lancashire also. What do you think?
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
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...In around about way I think our families are connected... If you find any infomation on the Lenz family would you please pass it on to me....
Regards, Ann
Hi Ann,
Thanks for your interesting post. I've just been having a search through Family Search and found the following;
B. ?
Bapt. 22/11/1818 - Evangelisch, Aplerbeck, Westfalen, Preussen
Casp. Henr. LENZ
Father & Mother: Johann LENZ & Maria Christ. MOELLENHOFF
The only sibling of the above child that I was able to find is;
B. 29/09/1820
Bapt. 07/10/1820 - Evangelisch, Aplerbeck, Westfalen, Preussen
Luisa Friederica Elisabeth LENZ
Father & Mother: Johannes LENZ & Maria Christina MOELLENHOFF
I'm not directly related to the LENZ family myself as it is the DIEHL's I am descended from. I do have several LENZ' (by marriage) in my tree though. If you'd like to see my family tree on Ancestry send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send you an invite.
Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
P.S. Just found the following census.
1851 Census
Source Citation: Class HO107; Piece 2215; Folio 88; Page 25.
Stanley Street, Bury, Lancashire
Lodger - Conrad FENZ - 30 (c. 1821) - Married - Germany - Carpenter
Lodger - Christiana FENZ - 24 (c. 1827) - Married - Germany
Lodger - Peter FENZ - 4 months (c. 1850) - Bury, Lancashire
The original image reads LENZ not FENZ (I have submitted a correction to Ancestry).
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Hi Kirsty
I would have loved to see your family tree but I can't send you my email address, as to send a PM you have had to have made 3 post, which I haven't. (I just read and enjoy other people's difficulties with their family trees)
It is advised that we don't put our email address out for all to see so I don't know how to go about getting my email address to you.
Any ideas ? ???
Regards
Ann
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Just keep posting - you're nearly there :)
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Thanks Berlin-Bob
:)
Ann
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Hi Ann,
An Ancestry invite is on its way to you now. Best Wishes, Kirsty :)
Hi John,
I've also sent you an invite to my tree using your Ancestry user name. TTFN, Kirsty :)
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I wonder if the Lenz family just Anglicized there name to Miller? there is a death of a Caspar Miller in 1860 Manchester.
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Thank you Gortonboy for your suggestion, I'm quite confused with the Lenz/Miller's.
Maybe someone out there has the death certificate of Caspar Miller 1860 ??
It isn't really my family but connected by Elizabeth Hoffman who married Casper Lenz (sister to my Conrad Hoffman).
I have a few certificates of the Lenz family and it's either Lenz or double barrelled Lenz Miller. Henry son of (Casper and Elizabeth) birth cert. he was Lenz married as Lenz but on his death certificate he was Miller Lenz and 1881 census Henry was Miller Long.
It has been suggested to me that John Miller on the 1861 census is actually Casper Lenz.
To anglicise the name Lenz to Miller mmm not to sure about that when they could have changed it to Long
I have been fascinated by this family, mainly Henry b: 1845 through everything Henry Lenz has beat all the odds and come out the other end a professor of music and even wrote an opera "The Drummer's Daughter" which was shown in Manchester and hailed a success.
Cheers
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hi..i am currently helping someone on another forum with this Lenz family,,,would you be prepared to join in the topic,,,or pass on the certificates you have ? I can direct you to the forum by private message? cheers GB. ;)
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Certainly love to join in if it's the Lenz family ?
:)