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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 16:16 GMT (UK)

Title: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 16:16 GMT (UK)
 :-\     Can anyone please offer me some tips?

I am trying to find my great grandfather but i have very little info.

His name is John Willie Taylor.He was born about 1870-1871 in Bradford Yorks according to the 1901 census.He married my G.Grandmother Rosa Louisa Outen in 1899 in Grays Essex.According to the marr cert his father was William Taylor who at the time of marr was deceased and his occupation was general laborour.  I have John and Rosa on the 1901 census living in Grays Essex but they are under the name Tyler.I know i have the right people as they also have their daughter Caroline Emily living with them and also either in the same house or next door are Rosa`s parents Frederick and Harriet Outen.  I have checked some of Rosa and /John`s childrens baptism records and it states his name as being Taylor so i assume that Tyler is a mistake by the person who wrote the census.  According to family they all state that John Taylor came from "Yorkshire way".  I have a photo of the man but i am struggling to find his birth record so i can trace his family back.  I appreciate that he may have been born in Bradford but didn`t necessarily live in that part of Yorkshire before he came to Essex.

Can anyone give me tips on how to find his birth record?
Your advice would be gratefully received.
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: hepburn on Monday 05 January 09 16:42 GMT (UK)
Taylor    John Willie         Oldham    8d   639 Jun' qtr 1871.........There's this one :-\
Sorry just realised Oldham is in Lancashire :-[
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 05 January 09 16:45 GMT (UK)
There's a couple of candidate births shown in freebmd.

One in Oldham district (30 miles from Bradford) jun 1871 and another in sept 1871 Northwich Cheshire.

There's also a Bradford in Lancs..

Pauline
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Bluie on Monday 05 January 09 16:46 GMT (UK)
Hi
Heres a possibility 1871 Census Idle near Bradford Yorks
Joshua Taylor Coal Miner Age 27   Eccleshill
Louisa             Wife                 27  Idle
Jesse               Son                  9    Eccleshill
Joseph               "                    6       "
Edgar                "                     4     Rawden
Jane               Daur                  3  Normanton
John William     Son                  1   Eccleshill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 16:51 GMT (UK)
Hi Hepburn,

Thanks for your help. Every avenue i have tried i have hit a brickwall.I know Oldham is in Lancs but there is always the posibility that he was born there and maybe lived in bradford until he moved to Essex. I know it`s a long shot but one not to be ruled out :-*

Also to genechaser who pm`d me.Thanks for looking,but his father was called William,not John.Your help is very much appreciated.xx

Did they have electoral roles for 1870? If so where do i find them?
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Monday 05 January 09 16:56 GMT (UK)
Perhaps it would be helpful to try and find a John Willie/iam, with father named William on the 1881 or 1891 census - to verify his age and birthplace? I've tried the 1881 census but Family Search seems to be playing up at the moment. Plus, I suppose his father could have died soon after his birth.

With a reasonably common name like Taylor, it's going to be very difficult to track him down (especially with a first name like John!!) without a bit more to go on. If someone can find him on an earlier census - with a few siblings names included - it would help no end to narrow it down.

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Monday 05 January 09 16:58 GMT (UK)
hi there here we go:

from A* 1881 census Wortley ,ecclesfield       (bradford is subdistrict of Wortley registration area - see genuki.)

William Taylor    65  Painter,house     Notts, Norton?
Ann taylor         60                             Wortley
Emma                11                                "
John W               10                               "
-----     taylor        5                               Notts,worksop (name not given)
Charles E              4                              Ecclesfield

3 births for 1870 /1871 on freebmd:

John William taylor    jun Q 1870    Bradford   9b/233
         "                       jun Q 1871        "          9b/99
         "                       sept Q 1871       "           9b/86

Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 16:59 GMT (UK)
Hi PaulineJ,

Thanks for your help.Maybe it is worth ordering them certificates,at worst it rules then out of the equation!!     Now Bradford in Lancs....... the 1901 census states bradford yorkshire but i must admit when searching different sites some do say Bradford,Lancashire,which i must admit has confused me at times!!   I wonder how far  apart Lancs and Yorkshire are?  I was beginning to think that maybe they are known as both!!   See how mad this is driving me!! :D
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 05 January 09 17:04 GMT (UK)
We should point out that he is 'officially' WILLIE, ie not WILLIAM on marriage.

I'd suggest looking at all John Willie births on freebmd; killing off as many as possible in the death indexes and seeing who is left...
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 17:05 GMT (UK)
Could John Willie actually be John William??  Just to confuse me even more!!

Thankyou to you all for all your help and suggestions.  Maybe i should just order birth certificates around the area and suggested year of birth and just try to eliminate........well i would if i won the lottery!!      Diddy i am going to follow your lead up if i can.Thanks.
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Monday 05 January 09 17:09 GMT (UK)
1891 in worsborough, Barnsley:

Ann Taylor   50  wid
John W        20   coal miner
Maria           17    gen servant
Charles       14   coal miner

Always down as John W. in indexes / census.

Think this one mose likely.  West Yorks.

Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 17:13 GMT (UK)
Hi PaulineJ,

Good idea!!  I am getting on to it right now.......whilst cooking dinner!!
Thanks for your help. The man is such a headache!! ::)
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Monday 05 January 09 17:16 GMT (UK)
Birth for the Wortley one:

John William Taylor  dec Q 1871  wortley  9c / 192

would have thought john Willie was def john William!!
Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Monday 05 January 09 17:58 GMT (UK)
I wouldn't go ordering certificates willy (Willie - get it!!  ::)) nilly - it could prove very expensive and still not produce the goods!

I've looked on FreeBMD and the only John Willie Taylor births I can find at the right time are in Lancashire. (2 in Oldham and 1 in Rochdale(who died same year) - oh and another in Northwich, Cheshire.)

I didn't know there was a Bradford in Lancs - I looked it up and , if I've got it right, it's bang in the middle of Greater Manchester and, of course, Oldham is also pretty much part of Manchester (although I'm sure people from Oldham would argue that one).

So, if you say that some websites give JW's birthplace on the 1901 census as Bradford, Lancs - perhaps that's right???

Family Search 1881 Census is still playing up - or is it just me? but if it ever rights itself, it might be worth looking for a Taylor family from Lancashire with William as Head of household.

These censuses can send you off in all sorts of wrong directions - I spent months once looking for my great grandmother's birth (and wasting money on birth certs) in Wales because an enumerator or a transcriber had read Great Marlow (GM) in Bucks as Glamorgan (GLAM) in Wales!!

Jill

Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Monday 05 January 09 19:02 GMT (UK)
Juliah's first post says 1901 bradford, yorks. am i missing something here?
no mention of Lancs!!

Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 05 January 09 19:07 GMT (UK)
what, we haven't had a right town, wrong county before?

I think we might be better off waiting for 1911 before wasting any certificate money...

Pauline
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Annie65115 on Monday 05 January 09 20:00 GMT (UK)
Regarding the 1881 census return, Wortley and Ecclesfield are these days both suburbs/satellite villages on the northern side of Sheffield, so very definitely in Yorkshire and nowhere near the Lancs border at that point.
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Monday 05 January 09 22:06 GMT (UK)
 ;D Hi  all,

Thankyou all for racking your brains for me. I will clarify for you all where i am with this mystery man.  His name is John Willie Taylor...Willie not William.This is is stated on his marriage certificate and also on his childrens baptism records, so until i find anything telling me other than this i am looking for a John Willie, not John William :)

According to the 1901 census he was born in Bradford Yorks and according to the marriage and census record he was born around 1870-71,this is assuming he hasn`t lied about his age!!His  father was William Taylor as stated on his marriage certificate who at the time of marriage(1899) was deceased.This is the only info that i have on him and yes i can`t wait for the 1911 census but this poses another problem for me......he left his wife and supposedly went to oz .The 1911 census will hopefully narrow down the years that he left as they had their last child in 1909 and Rosa had another child by someone else in 1914!! Confused...I AM!! :)

There isn`t alot of John Willie Taylors born in the surrounding years when he was born but none are for Bradford,well not that i can see. So either he was born somewhere else and lived in or near Bradford and stated Bradford on the census as this was his closest town or he never came from there and was lying...or his name was actually John William Taylor.Whatever the reason is this man doesn`t want to be found!!    Maybe he never went to oz maybe he was in prison? Who knows :)

I just want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for all looking for me and also for your suggestions.Feel free if you want to try and solve the mystery of this man ;)

Without a mothers name or any siblings he is too hard to find.Maybe now is the time to ask for a proffessional to help?  God bless you all and i will let you know if i make anymore progress.I will try to trace the John Willie of Oldham and Northwich,you never know he may be my man.xx
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Monday 05 January 09 22:26 GMT (UK)
I wish you luck, Juliah - it looks like you're going to need it!

Just to clarify:

1. Am I right in thinking that you never found him on any earlier censuses?

2. Am I right - did you mean that you'd found him on the 1901 on some websites where his birthplace is actually given as Bradford, Lancashire?

I'm still going to try and find him on the 1881 census when Family Search is running properly. (Glutton for punishment, but I don't like to admit defeat!!)

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: madpants on Tuesday 06 January 09 01:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Juliah

Just on the subject of John Willie/William don't rule out the William.  Just because he was referred to on his marriage cert etc as Willie does not mean he didn't start out life as William

My Faith on marriage, childrens's certs, census and death records was Birth registered as Kate Elizabeth ...........go figure!

NOTHING is as it seems in genealogy, you need to consider the Williams too.
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 06 January 09 01:36 GMT (UK)


What is the Mothers name on marriage cert?


trish
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: madpants on Tuesday 06 January 09 01:46 GMT (UK)
Mother's name is not stated on english marriage certs unfortunately  :(
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: trish1120 on Tuesday 06 January 09 04:33 GMT (UK)


Thanks Madpants :-
[ Shows how many English marriage certs I have applied for ;)

Trish
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Tuesday 06 January 09 22:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Jillruss 8)

I have never found John on any census other than the 1901, this is due to the fact that there are so many John w Taylors and fathers called William that it really is so hard to determine which one is him,especially as i have so little info on him.

Now regarding how Lancs came in to it.When i have been searching on various websites for info on Bradford, i often wondered why the search engine was coming up with Bradford Lancashire.I now know that there is a Bradford in Lancashire.....you learn something new every day ::)

The 1901 census def states Bradford Yorks so i can rule out Lancs,but i have wondered if maybe he necessarily wasnt born in Brad Yorks but lived there as a baby and just gave this area as his birth place.I think the best avenue is to rule out all the John Willie`s and then start looking at John William.I may order the birth certificates for John Willie in Oldham but i wont be silly spending my money on ordering loads.  Why are so many names listed as John W or John H, why can`t they just state the middle name it would make our research a lot easier. 8)

Anyway im glad you like a challenge,do it`s over to you.................................good luck.xx
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: MKG on Tuesday 06 January 09 22:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Juliah - excuse me for butting in.

I just noticed that you'd expressed a possibility of consulting a professional. I have limited experience on this site, but the little I have is all totally positive. The people on here are bloodhounds and tenacious bu**ers to boot. My feeling is that if they can't collectively find what you're looking for, it ain't there to find. A professional isn't going to change that situation.

Let 'em run with it. It may take a while but if there's anything there, they'll get it in the end. I've watched them slogging and I've seen flashes of inspirational brilliance - and I've rarely seen a non-result.

Best of luck.

(For all you bloodhounds, cheques for the advertisement can be made out to ............................ )

Mike
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Wednesday 07 January 09 11:12 GMT (UK)
Mike - cheque's in the post!!!  ::)

Juliah,

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood and thought you had actually found some census transcriptions which gave JW's birthplace as Bradford, Lancs. So, it looks as if you are looking for one born in Bradford, Yorks and, on the face of it, there ain't any John Willie Taylors born in Yorkshire at the right time. So it looks as if he was given his full name when registered.

I agree it's a possibility that he was born in Lancs or Cheshire and moved to Bradford as an infant so remembers that as his birthplace.

I still think it's a priority to try and find him on the 1891 and 1881 censuses - particularly the 1881 when he would have only been about 10 years old and more likely to be living at home.

It may be a case of finding all the likely candidates and eliminating them along the way e.g. you need to find a couple where the wife is a widow by 1901 census (as William Taylor died before JW's marriage in 1899).

Unfortunately, Family search census is still not working properly (on my PC anyway!) so I'll take a look at Find Your Past.

By the way, I know I said I like a challenge but I'm not flying solo here, the others are still helping (I hope).

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Wednesday 07 January 09 13:57 GMT (UK)
please refer back to my posts 6/10 & 12 for the above census etc!!

Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Wednesday 07 January 09 14:51 GMT (UK)
Absolutely, Diddy - I was just hoping that we might find a JW whose birthplace was given as Bradford but the only one I can come up with on the 1881 is:

27 Southampton St, Bradford

William Harrison Head 41 joiner born  Sowerby
Elizabeth   "       Wife   51                   Wigston, Leicester
John Wm Taylor  Nephew 9                 Bradford, Yorks

which would open another can of worms if it were him! Possibly his father has already died? What of his mother?

I certainly think those 3 births you found for a JW in Bradford in 1870/1 would be worth Juliah sending for - perhaps with the proviso that his father's name has to be William - so that she'd pay less than the full £7 for any cert that isn't s/o William. I can't remember off hand what the minimum payment per certificate would be.

Jill

Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: diddymiller on Wednesday 07 January 09 16:23 GMT (UK)
as stated before - on genuki bradford yorks comes within wortley reg district - thus birth given post 12 most likely.


Diddy
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Wednesday 07 January 09 16:36 GMT (UK)
As stated in previous post - absolutely!!  ;)

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Wednesday 07 January 09 16:51 GMT (UK)
Hi

I have been following this thread and am a bit confused!

Isn't Bradford a Registration District in its own right?  I thought it was Bradfield that is in the Wortley Registration District?

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Annie65115 on Wednesday 07 January 09 17:38 GMT (UK)
I've been following this thread and been quietly surprised that BradFORD should be classified under Wortley, if only because Bradford is a city and Wortley is a village!

Now BradFIELD (upper and lower) are two villages nowadays under the Bradfield Parish Council, and they aren't very far from Wortley village at all so that would make more sense.

Sorry, I'm not being v helpful re the OP but I do know the Sheffield area pretty well!
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Annie65115 on Wednesday 07 January 09 17:39 GMT (UK)
That might also raise the possibility that JW was born in Bradfield, under Wortley jurisdiction, but this was mistranscribed as Bradford for the census.
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Wednesday 07 January 09 17:50 GMT (UK)
Hello Annie

I am relieved to hear that someone who knows the area agrees with me - I am not particularly familiar with research in Yorkshire and therefore was rather hesitant about posting!

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: coombs on Wednesday 07 January 09 17:52 GMT (UK)
Hi

There is such a registration district as Bradford. Bradford is a large city so it should have a reg district.

Ben
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Wednesday 07 January 09 19:34 GMT (UK)
Must admit, I was begining to find all this Wortley business a bit confusing.

Correct me if I'm wrong (please) but we are looking for the birth of a John Willie/William Taylor in Bradford about 1871/2.

Diddy found 3 possibles on FreeBMD.

I'm not sue if we've found any of them on the earlier censuses - other than the one living with his uncle and aunt, the Harrisons in 1881??

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Wednesday 07 January 09 20:00 GMT (UK)
Hello Jill

I have found a John W Taylor aged 1 month in the 1871 in Leeds.  He was born in Bradford.  He is living with his mother Elizabeth and sister Ann M aged 1 with Elizabeth's parents John and Ann Golding.  No sign of his father but Elizabeth is described as married.

I checked for a marriage of an Elizabeth Golding and found this

Marriages Mar 1869   
GOLDING  Elizabeth     Leeds  9b 580   
TAYLOR  William     Leeds  9b 580

I can't find John or Elizabeth in 1881.  Am wondering if the John W you found is the same boy?

Perhaps we should try to find the Harrisons in 1871?

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Wednesday 07 January 09 20:34 GMT (UK)
I think I have found the Elizabeth Taylor and John from the 1871 census in 1891.

The ref is RG12 3691 f 123

There are now a lot more children.  Will have another look fror them in 1881.

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Wednesday 07 January 09 20:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,

I am so surprised and very grateful that my brick wall has sparked such a huge interest.The elizabeth and john Golding that you have mentioned........there is a man on gene`s who has these in his tree.He admits that his John W has vannished in 1901 without a trace but he states that his john is John William and not Willie and also the father William is alive and kicking in the 1901 census so he has ruled out that it is the family that i am looking for. :'(
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Wednesday 07 January 09 22:05 GMT (UK)
Barbara,

I don't have access to the censuses (apart from 1881) so would it be possible for you to post the details of your 1871 Leeds find of a JW with his mother Elizabeth and sister Ann M? I'm particularly interested in their birthplaces and Elizabeth's age.

And ditto for the 1891 find? **Is Elizabeth a widow?

Has anyone managed to find William & Elizabeth Harrison in 1871 in case the JW, nephew, staying with them is the right one?

Juliah, don't give up on the family Barbara has found, just because a chap on Genes has written them off - he could be wrong ( a lot of them are!).

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 09:20 GMT (UK)
Hi again Jill and Julia

Yes, I will post my findings!  Will have to be this afternoon though.

I found the Taylor/Golding family in 1901 and William is indeed alive - think he is a shoe maker.  John is not with the family in 1901.

This means that if this is the correct family John lied on his marriage certificate - but that is not unusual!

Will also have a look for the Harrisons in 1871.

I have had no luck at all with the Taylor/Golding family in 1881  :(

Barbara

Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 14:02 GMT (UK)
1871
3 East Grove Street, Leeds 
John Golding Head Mar70 Cottage Property Owner b Glouc Chipping Sodbory
Anne M Golding Wife Mar 68 b Yorks Bridlington
Elizabeth Taylor Dau Mar 20  b Essex Barkingside
Anne M Taylor Gr Dau 1  b Yorks Leeds
John Wm Taylor Gr Son 1 month  b Yorks Bradford

Ref RG10  4555 f  155


1891
William’s Yard, Lyndhurst Street, Leeds
William Taylor Head Mar 42 Clogger b Yorks Leeds
Elizabeth Taylor 36  Wife Mar Taloress b Bath
John Taylor Son Single 19 Warehouseman(Cloth) b Yorks Bradford
Henry Taylor Son Single 16 Brickmaker b Yorks Leeds
William Taylor Son Single 14 Brickmaker b Yorks Leeds
Annie Taylor Dau Mar 20 b Yorks Leeds
Sarah Taylor 13 Single Tailoress b Yorks Leeds
Ellen Taylor 12  b Yorks Barnsley
Amelia? Taylor 6 b Yorks Leeds
Emily Taylor 3 b Yorks Leeds
Annie E Wilkinson Gr Dau 1 b Yorks Leeds
John T Wilkinson Lodger Mar 26 Cloth Finisher b Yorks Leeds
 
RG12 3691 f 123

This marriage ties together Ann M from the 1871 with the lodger. Why Annie is shown as married but with the surname Taylor on the 1891 I have no idea!

Marriages Mar 1887
TAYLOR  Annie Maria     Leeds  9b 549   
WILKINSON  John Thomas     Leeds  9b 549   

1901 on its way.

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 14:11 GMT (UK)
1901
58 Windsor Street, Leeds
William Taylor Head Mar 53 Sole Cutter Boot Trade
Elizabeth Taylor Wife Mar 49 
Annie Taylor Dau Mar 32 Charwoman Domestic Worker
Amelia Taylor Dau 16  ?? Boot Trade
Emily Taylor Dau 14 
Joseph Taylor Son 9 
Annie E Wilkinson Gr Dau 12 
William Taylor Son  22  Brickmaker

All born Leeds.

Ref  RG13  4224 f 62

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Thursday 08 January 09 14:25 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Barbara.

What do you think?

Why would Juliah's JW say his father was deceased when he married in 1899 when, in 1901, he's clearly alive and living at home? I suppose it could have been an error by the registrar, but not likely.

Also, this John is a warehouseman in 1891 - Juliah's JW was a general labourer by the time of his marriage 8 years later - possible, but again not likely.

All in all, I think perhaps I've maligned the chap from Genes who discounted this family as Juliah's - I think he might be right!

Juliah, it's beginning to look as if you're going to have to order those 3 certificates and hope one (and only one!) of them has a father named William.

With his parents' names it should be easier to find him on the earlier censuses. Hopefully!!

(If you decide to go for the certificates, you will let us know how you get on, won't you?)

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 14:40 GMT (UK)
This is the Harrison couple in 1871.  Looks as though they doctored their ages in 1881!

1871
27 Southampton Street, Bradford
Elizabeth Eagles Head Wid 44 Dressmaker b Leicestershire Wigston
William Harrison Lodger Unm 26 Joiner b Yorks Sowerby

RG10  4459 f 74

If we could find the Taylor family in 1881 I would be much happier!

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 14:59 GMT (UK)
Have just tracked the family in 1881  :D - details to follow.

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 15:23 GMT (UK)
1881
Nether Field, Hoyland Nether
Wm. Taylor Head Mar 27  Clogger b Leeds Yorks
Elizbth. Taylor 25 b Gloucester
Annie Maria Taylor 10 b Leeds Yorks
Harry Taylor 5 b Leeds Yorks
Wm. Taylor 4 b Leeds Yorks
Sarah Taylor 3 b Leeds Yorks
Helen Taylor 1 b Stutton Yorks
Jimmy Taylor 8 months b Hoyland Yorks
John P. Allinson Boarder 25  Clogger b Yorkshire
Rachel Ragan 19  Servant b Gt Houghton Yorkshire

RG11  4608 f 59

John is not with the family so could well be the boy with the Harrisons. I assume Baby Jimmy must have died as he is not around in 1891.

Barbara

When I checked the Golding family it looked as though they were Travellers which could explain why Elizabeth's birthplace changes!  In 1901 I think it must have simply been convenient to say all the family was born in Leeds
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Thursday 08 January 09 15:37 GMT (UK)
Well done, Barbara!

Yes - I was beginning to wonder about Elizabeth's various birthplaces!! That would explain it.

I agree - looks like the JW staying with aunt and uncle is their's, but the question is - is he Juliah's???

One thing has sprung to mind, but I'm wondering if I'm just getting a bit too fanciful here: if JW had been 'farmed out' at 9 or younger to his aunt and uncle, who didn't seem to have any children of their own, did he look upon William Harrison as his father, and is it William Harrison who has died prior to 1899?

As Elizabeth Harrison came from Leicestershire, it seems more likely that JW is William's blood nephew, so does that mean his mother Elizabeth might have been William Harrison's sister?

I hope you're following all this, Juliah (not sure I am!). We will be testing you on it later (joke!). Please send for those certs and put us all out of our misery!!  ::)

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 15:45 GMT (UK)
Searching the 1901 census for a John Taylor born Bradford 1871 +/- 2 gives the following possible for the son of William and Elizabeth

John  - a Steam train driver married to Catherine
John W - a Joiner  married to Eleanor

The others all have wrong middle name/initials or are with parents.

Not sure where that leaves us but a labourer is nearer to a Warehouseman than Train Driver or Joiner.

Barbara

Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 15:49 GMT (UK)
Have just seen your reply Jill.

What we need is something to tie the John W married to Rosa to this - or some other family.

Who were the witnesses to his marriage Julia? Do they give any help at all?

Would be wonderful if a family memebr were with John and Rosa in 1911 - but I suspect that is too much to hope for  ::)

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: jillruss on Thursday 08 January 09 16:41 GMT (UK)
Aha!!

Don't know if you agree, but it seems more than likely that the John W, joiner on the 1901 is the one who was with William & Elizabeth Harrison in 1881 as William was a joiner. That's probably why he was living with them - learning the trade. So, I think we can eliminate him from our enquiries.

Also, your 1901 finds may account for the 3 John W births found in Bradford 1870/1 (if we include Juliah's find).

It still doesn't explain where on earth our JW was in 1881.

Murkier and murkier!!!

Jill
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Thursday 08 January 09 18:53 GMT (UK)
Hi Gill and Barbara,

Regarding John and Rosa`s marriage certificate:The witnesses were a Thomas Edward Livermore who is Rosa`s half brother and an Elizabrth Ann Rounce (who from what i can see on freebmd after doing a birth search for all areas) most likely was a friend of Rosa`s as she appears to have been born in Orsett Essex.  No help what so ever to us!!   Am i following........No.Im more confused than ever!!LOL.At least i am having fun in my search :-*  Even John and Rosa`s kids names dont give me much help.They had 4,Caroline Emily b 1900,she must have been named after Rosa`s younger sister Caroline Emily.Then came John Willie Taylor born 1902 and then came my nan Julia Ann.The name Julia has run in the family but it has been Julia Maude.Maybe Ann is a clue to John`s family or maybe if Rosa and Elizabeth Ann Rounce were really close she may have named her after her....if you know what i mean!!Then there was Lilian Violet born 1909.Doris Harriet Taylor Johnson born 1914 as explained in previous note was by another man.OOH the plot thickens.LOL. There are no Lilian Violet`s in the tree that i can see but that doesn`t really mean a thing.Just to add fuel to fire im going to look a little into the Annie Wilkinson,just to rule it out but....Rosa`s older half sister Sarah ann Livermore married a man called William Wilkinson Fell who came from Driffield Yorkshire.From what i can see William was an only child and his mum i think was Ann Wilkinson so either thay wasn`t married when he was born or she carried her maiden name on by giving him it as his middle name.I am going to now have a quick look to see if Annie Wilkinson`s dad is in anyway related to William Wilkinson Fell`s mother.Now are you all following me. ::) I know it is a very long shot but i would rather rule it out now than find out 5 years down the line that it has been staring me in the face for all this time. Also what do you make of the censuses where there is a JWTaylor living say with his mum who is unmarried and still at home with her parents? Were they allowed to name a man on the certificate,my god they could have put anyone on there?  I ask this as i had my eldest daughter(now 15) before i married her dad and he had to be present to agree that he was going on the certificate.  I am wondering if he was dumped on grandparents or his mum had him out of wedlock and his dad wasn`t around?  Silly questions i know but i don`t really understand the rules and regulations of registering births back then.....that`s if there was any rules!! :-*
Will keep you all posted on how i get on.

Julia.xx
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: Barbara F on Thursday 08 January 09 19:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Julia

Have a look at this site

http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm#COL4

Really useful for explaining certificates and registration.

Barbara
Title: Re: helping a newbie!!
Post by: juliah7 on Thursday 08 January 09 20:37 GMT (UK)
Barbara, i will look at that site in a min:)
Just been on the Bradfordfhs website.Very informative about the area.Not sure how much you and Gill know about the area so i thought i would post what i had found.Not sure if it will help or confuse!!

First of all it states: The registration district of "Bradford West Riding" is used as the society`s geographical area of interest and covers much more than the original township of Bradford. Within this area are Townships and Hamlets such as: Adwalton,Allerton,Bierley,Bolton,Bolton Woods,Bowling,Bradford Moor,Buttershaw,Calverley,Clayton,Cleckheaton,Cullingworth Gate,Denholme,Drighlington,Dudley Hill,East Bierley,East Bowling,Eccleshill,Fagley,Farsley,Frizinghall,Fulneck,Great Horton,Greengates,Heaton,Hewendon,Horton,Hunsworth,Idle,Lsidterdyke,Lidget Green,Little Horton,Low Moor,Manningham,Nabwood,North Bierley,Oakenshaw,Odsal,Pudsey,Qeensbury,Saltaire,Scholes,Shipley,Thornbury,Thornton,Toftshaw,Tong,Troydale,Tyersal,Undercliffe,West Bowling,Wibsey,Wilsden,Windhill,Wrose and Wyke.

It then states Registration sub districts 1851-1891 censuses.The name of each sub-district is in UPPERCASE.Lowercase are chapelries,Hamlets or villiages which were enumerated in that sub-district.
SUBDISTRICTS:WILSDEN, THORNTON, SHIPLEY, IDLE, CALVERLEY, HORTON,BOWLING, PUDSEY,NORTH BIERLEY, DRIGHLINGTON, CLECKHEATON.

Chapelries,Hamlets etc: Hunsworth, Wyke, Tong, Clayton, Denholme, Allerton, Heaton, Manningham, Windhill, Bolton, Eccleshill, Farsley, Thornbury, Tyersal.

Thought i would post this incase you or Jill see anything on the census that i don`t. :D