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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: JFK on Tuesday 08 February 05 20:36 GMT (UK)
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Hello All
Can SKS please help me before I go mad. I'm so befuddled with names and dates and looking for people who don't seem to have been born that I'm desperate.
I'm looking for a HENRY PENNYFATHER born in 1815 in St GILES, CAMBERWELL. He had a twin brother called THOMAS who I have found living in HARROW WEALD in 1871 with this wife and two children. Also living in the same house is an E PENNYFATHER head (Born c 1812), and an E PENNYFATHER daughter (Born c 1845). The E in both instances I think stands for ELIZABETH. E the head is down as being unmarried, but I think there is a connection here between her and the HENRY I'm looking for. I've not been able to find a marriage certificate or a birth certificate for the daughter. Both are said to have been born in Surrey. I have however found a HENRY PENNYFATHER born in 1845 in the CAMBERWELL WORKHOUSE. No father was mentioned on the birth certificate but again I have a feeling that there is a connection. His mother is down as ELIZABETH, his name HENRY (after his father?) and being born in CAMBERWELL could mean something. Tentative I know but I'm desperate.
Is there anyone who could do a 'lookup' for me and see if they can find this family or any tips on where I go from here? I've exhausted all the more well known sites on the web and have a complete data base of all the Pennyfather (and derivatives) BM & D records since they began - nothing
One other question. Are institutions detailed on the 1851, 1861 & 1871?
Many thanks
Kind regards Jan ???
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Jan
I have checked the complete Camberwell 1851 Census Index - HO107/1580-1582, but I couldn't find any listings for PENNYFATHER I'm afraid.
Workhouses are included on census returns, but family groups are often not listed together, and occasionally an enumerator will just put the inmates initials down.
Rick :)
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Hi Rick
Thanks for looking for me. It looks as if I'm going to spend a few more sleepless nights before I untangle this mystery. You would never believe the problems they have caused me. Right from the very beginning as well. It seems that my grandmother, for reasons I shall never know changed her birthdate from the 31 July to the 4 August. Her father disappeared, her sister's birth certificate shows the mother's name as Digglebury which doesn't exist as a name....and so it goes on.
Again many thanks for taking the time to look. At least I know that Camberwell is one place where they weren't living
Regards Jan ???
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Jan
Having said that they do not appear to have been in Camberwell in 1851, I have to tell you that parts of the return are in a very bad state, and are completely illegible.
Workhouse records are generally very good, and if Camberwell Workhouse records have survived, they will be held at the London Metropolitan Archives. If you cannot visit in person, they do offer a research service, but they will charge for this.
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/corporation/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/JAS/lma/lma.htm
Rick :)
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Hi Rick
Thanks for the tip. I think that will have to be my next step. Strange that I can find one twin but not the other. Makes me wonder if he was in prison or had been deported. If I could find a death certificate it would bring some sort of closure but nothing anywhere...I will not be beaten though, I will get to the bottom of it - one day.
Thanks and regards Jan
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This is the only Henry Pennyfather that appears on the partial index for 1861.
Pennyfather Caroline 39 Pancras, Somers Town 109 55
Pennyfather Henry 41 Pancras, Somers Town 109 55
Age is wrong ,but if you think he might be yours- yell.
I was born in Harrow Weald- too many years ago to waht to be reminded ;D
Regards
Carol
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Have just had a play with your names and found this....from the 10% census sample,could they be yours? Enfield to Harrow is perfectly possible.
1851 United Kingdom Census Sample
Name Residence
(ED, County) Birth Place Gender Age
Ellen Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Middlesex, England, Enfield Female 3
Emily Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Middlesex, England, Enfield Female 0.48
Emma Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Middlesex, England, Enfield Female 8
George Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Middlesex, England, Enfield Male 6
John Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Hertfordshire, England, Wellwyn Male 34
Lydia Pennyfather Enfield, Middlesex Middlesex, England, Enfield Female 31
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Hi Carol
Many thanks for the information you sent but unforunately none of them are my Pennyfathers. The names I'm looking for are Thomas (husband) Emma (wife) Charlotte & Henry (children) and 2 Elizabeths - mother and daughter. I've found them living in Harrow Weald in 1871 and in 1881 Henry living with his wife and family in Bushey. It's the two Elizabeths who I'm interested in. My great great grandmother and her daughter who were both born in Surrey and of course the illusive Henry, the twin brother of Thomas. He seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth !! No record of his marriage or death which makes me think he may well have been deported.
I will have to keep looking.
Thanks again for your time
Kind regards Jan
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Hi Jan
Not sure if you're still looking but for 1861 a possibility ...
Harrow Weald (the actual address is difficult to read, perhaps someone can have a look?)
Charlotte Pennyfather 1855 Harrow Weald, Middlesex, England Daughter
Ellen Pennyfather 1851 Harrow Weald, Middlesex, England Daughter
Emma Pennyfather 1815 Acton, Middlesex, England Wife
Harriet Pennyfather 1847 Harrow Weald, Middlesex, England Daughter
Henry Pennyfather 1853 Harrow Weald, Middlesex, England Son
Joseph Pennyfather 1858 Harrow Weald, Middlesex, England Son
Thomas Pennyfather 1815 Peckham, Surrey, England Head
George Rogers 1839 Brewtford, Middlesex, England Nephew
Thomas is a Potter? Labourer (hard to read)
RG9/783
Folio: 10
Page: 13
Jonathan
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Yes as you say Johnathan very difficult to read- next door is Mr Jones Cottage,The Copse, near the City.That area of Harrow Weald is now known as Old Redding.
The pub called the Case is Altered is there and Grimsdyke,the Gilbert and Sullivan house.
I was born just along the road from there- but only last year did I discover it was called The City ;D
Hope this helps
Carol
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Excellent detective work Carol, I must admit I thought I saw something like Mr Jones Cottage and The City but couldn't figure it out and didn't want to make an idiot of myself by guessing :D
Thanks for sorting that out.
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan
Many thanks for the info on the Pennyfather family living in Harrow Weald in 1861. It is the right family but it's Thomas's twin brother's family that I'm looking for. Henry, the twin, was drowned in 1839 but he had a wife and daughter both called Elizabeth. In 1871 both of them were living in the same house as Thomas's family still in Harrow Weald but I've no idea where they were before that.
Again many thanks for the 1861 info. It's brought a new name into the tree now - Rogers - the surname of the nephew.
Kind regard Jan
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Hi Jan
So we have a starting point in our search for Elizabeth Pennyfather snr and jnr ;D
I will post them here in 1871,it might help someon to find them in 1861 or 51!
E Pennyfather W 1821 Surrey, England Head Harrow Middlesex
E Pennyfather U 1843 Surrey, England Daughter Harrow Middlesex
Is the date of birth of young Elizabeth correct.........4 years after her dad died???
I'll have a look for them myself later.
Cheers
Carol
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Hi Carol
Sorry about the year of birth for Elizabeth the daughter. It should have been c.1839 - the year in which her father was found drowned. I went to a party last night and although not hung over my brain must be a little bit scrambled!!
Thanks for the help.
Kind regards Jan
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Hello Jan
I'll whisper incase your head hurts ;D ;D ;D
Do you know about Grimsdyke? It was the home of W S Gilbert ,and is very near to where your Pennyfathers were living in 1861.
See info about it here,including how Gilbert died,he drowned trying to save two girls swimming in his lake http://www.grimsdyke.com/hist.htm
A pal of mine had his wedding reception there 10 years ago.
I was born in the 50's :-[ in the same road- about a mile further down the hill.
Have a good day
Carol
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Hi again Carol
No I know absolutely nothing about Harrow Weald - other than the name but I will have a look at the web site and find out more. I was born in 1945 west of London - Hillingdon - moving out to Buckinghamshire with my parents when I was 11 so what memories I have are of the old A40 corridor - Greenford, Hayes, Uxbridge, Acton & Ealing. Close
Thanks for your offer to help find my illusive Elizabeths'. I'm not even sure if Elizabeth Snr married Henry. In the 1871 she is down as being unmarried but then she had been widowed for 30 odd years so probably no longer considered herself a widow. It would be interesting to find them on the 1861. I do wonder if she was still living in the Camberwell area. I have found an Elizabeth Pennyfather having a son - Henry - in the Camberwell Workhouse in 1845. No father was mentioned on the birth certificate and it was 5 years after her husband's death. But was it her and did she name him after her dead husband? Aged 12 and with 7 previous convictions, a Henry Pennyfather was prosecuted for steeling 12lbs of horse hair and detained for four months in a house of correction and a further four years after that in a reformatory institution. If he was her son she wasn't too hot on the parental guidance was she? This woman is really intriguing me. I wish I knew what she looked like and what sort of life she led. From what I've read Camberwell was a rather salubrious place, full of gin palaces and whore houses so p'raps it's best I don't know.
Many thanks and kind regards
Jan