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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: geniecolgan on Sunday 28 January 07 06:26 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to establish my 3rd great grandmother's maiden name. My 2nd great grandfather was Joseph Durrant b. c.1826 in Hemel Hempstead to John Durrant & Sarah.
IGI has a marriage of a John Durrant to a Sarah Norris in 1807 and I'm wondering if this is the Sarah Norris b. 1786 in Watford? Was she Joseph's mother?
Joseph became a Tallow Chandler and married Jane Whiting in 1851, in London.
Can anyone throw any light on the subject?
All help welcomed.
Thanks.
jc
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Hi JC
Joseph's baptismal record may well give his mother's maiden name. Hemel Parish Record films are stored at HALS (See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24217.0.html) and are also available for hire to view at any LDS Family History Centry worldwide.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
The marriage that you found on the IGI may well relate to your John and Sarah as Watford is very close to Hemel Hempstead, but it may be dangerous to assume that it is. See Right Name, Wrong Body and The Dangers of Internet Genealogy by Chris Reynolds.
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/keytopics.htm
Rick :)
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Hi Rick,
I have read Chris Reynolds article - "The dangers of Internet Genealogy", it makes interesting reading. That is why I'm making no assumption but posting here so that someone may confirm or deny my postulation. I am somewhat limited to "Internet Genealogy" given my location, Canada and an inability to travel. However I shall, weather permitting, hy myself off to the local Family Search centre and check if they have Joseph's baptism.
Many thanks.
Jeanette
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Hello Geniecolgan,
I wonder if you've had any luck with your search yet? Sarah Norris and John Durrant are, apparently, in our line that we are currently researching, though Sarah has been recorded by other family members as being a 'Morris' - which may well be as a result of a mispelling or flawed oral history. Our interest is in one of their sons, Jonathan.
However, we don't appear to have a Joseph listed . We've sourced someone's transcriptions of the Hemel Hempstead baptisms, and can see no Joseph in that list either. Would love to know what you managed to dig up.
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Hello CasB,
I've not had any luck with the marriage of John and Sarah Norris/Morris.
My line comes down from Joseph who was my gt. gt. grandfather.
I believe that Jonathan was Joe's elder brother, he was a witness to Joseph's marriage in 1851. At that time, Jonathan and his family were living in Paddington. I have them on the 1851 census. His wife was Sarah and they had three children, Henry 9, John 4 and Sarah 1.
I can't find Jonathan after that but I suspect he may have gone to Australia. There is a Durrant tree on RootsWeb but it doesn't quite fit with my research unless Jon's wife Sarah had died. They have Jon's wife as Caroline Archer ???
I have Joseph on the 1841- 1891 census and I have his marriage cert.
I do not have a christening for him. The only ref. I could find was on IGI and it is a submitted entry, therefore questionable.
We must chat some more. I'd like to know what you have on Jonathan and his ancestors.
Genie :)
P.S. I've just noticed that this is your first post. Welcome to RootsChat ;D
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Just an update since I last wrote - we've been slowly trawling through the information online and have now ordered a couple of marriage certificates relating to Jonathan (the Durrant that came to Australia on the Coromandel).
My own belief (which I hope to be confirmed or otherwise by the certificates) is that Caroline was Jonathan's 2nd wife, and that Jonathan is the same Jonathan you mention as listed in the 1851 census with wife Sarah, and children Henry, John (Jonathan) & Sarah. (He was listed as a bricklayer, as was Jonathan on the ship to Australia listing). It seems likely that something happened - perhaps death - in 1851 to wife Sarah & the eldest child, and that Jonathan remarried quite quickly (we are looking at a possible marriage to a Caroline Archer in 1852). I have found two death records listed that might be contenders, but have also found a Henry Durrant aged 19 at 1861 census living as the son of a woman who is not named Durrant, so perhaps Henry was taken in by extended family? That's purely speculation but, whatever - he did not come to Australia, just Jonathan & Caroline, and the 2 other children.
What's so interesting is that all our Australian relatives have presumed that they've resulted from the Jonathan/Caroline line. I strongly believe that this is not so - that the young Jonathan on the boat, along with his sister Sarah Elizabeth, was a product of Jonathan & Sarah.
Once we've ascertained Jonathan's (2?) marriage details, I can then move on to his parentage, and perhaps we'll turn up something about your Joseph.
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Hi CasB,
I am very pleased to hear from you again.
I concur with your beliefs. It has long been my theory that Jonathan's wife Sarah died, that Caroline Archer was his 2nd wife and that our Australian relatives stem from the issue of Jon and Sarah.
I have a further theory...... that Henry was not Jonathan's son but his nephew, the son of Jonathan's eldest brother William b 1808.
That Wm and his wife were dead and Jonathan and Sarah had taken him in.
Note: that on the 1851 census Sarah's age is 26 and Henry's is 9. If Henry was her son, she would have given birth to him at <15> years old, a bit young I think.
Also, there is a submitted record on FamilySearch giving a birth of Henry to Wm and Louisa Bacon 25th Jun 1841 and a birth record for Henry on FreeBMD (Sep, 1841, H.H., 6, page illegible).
So when Sarah died and Jon remarried, then decided to leave for Australia, Henry was passed over to yet another relative so that he would grow up near the family.
On the question of Jonathan and Joseph's mother's maiden name, I have found another source that gives John Durrant marrying Sarah NORRIS 4th Aug 1807 in H.H. See this link:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,311449.msg1747784.html#msg1747784
I am sending you a Personal Message. I look forward to hearing more from you.
Genie
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Update:
I have just received from HALS a copy of the marriage of John Durrant to Sarah Norris, Hemel Hempstead 1807 ;D
It is entry no. 549,
John Durrant, Bachelor and Sarah Norris of the same parish Spinster.
Married in church by Banns, 4th Aug 1807.
Signed by: John and Sarah in the Presence of James and Mary Durrant.
I'm now satisfied that my John married Sarah Norris and not Morris ;D ;D ;D
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Norris Connection
We may have interests in Watford & Hemel Hempsted. If the Sarah born in 1786 is the one who married John Durrant and is a sister of Charles Norris and George Norris of Watford. Then there would be a relationship;however, as my cousin George Norris in Nanaimo says:
Obviously they are talking about our Sarah Norris b. 1786 in Watford, daughter of John Norris and Sarah Ayers and I have no events recorded for her other then birth. However, is it the same Sarah who married Durrant? Me thinks it would be difficult to prove this other then by "reasonable assumption".
Moderator Comment: split off from another topic and merged here
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Hi nordon,
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she is the same Sarah.
I have not been able to tie her back further than her marriage to John Durrant in 1807.
We must confer more :) but I'm afraid you've landed on Dee's inquiry :-\ (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: now merged :)
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Well...thank-you editor as I'm finally in the right topic section.
We spent several decades trying to find where George Norris,grocer, Chelsea was born...he was listed under Morris in the 1851 census for St. James, Westminster. His place of birth was listed as Watford 1790 or perhaps, Bushey,1794. A 1784 George had died. He had an older brother, Charles, a tailor in south London...and a sister Sarah.
The IGI listing had her parents as Jo. Norris and the others as John--so the orginal record might better indicate if this is John or perhaps, Joseph.
George's son, William George Norris and his wife, Mary Tompson of Hemel Hempsted emmigrated to the Toronto area and then migrated to Bowmanville, Ontario and on to Victoria, BC.
Now a little more work might prove that our Sarah and your Sarah are one and the same.
Cheers...Don
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Thanks Mod for moving the posts, much appreciated :)
Hi there Nordon,
we are in the right place now. I did try to send you a Personal Message but you have to have a minimum number of post to receive same. I think it's 3 or 4 so lets continue ;D
I've had a look at the image of the1851 census for George in Westminster and I tottally agree. It's an N. and he's born in Watford.
I've seen the IGI entries. Not very helpfull in connecting Sarah to Charles and George, are they :-\
I'm not sure how we can prove our Sarah's are the same but will keep revisiting her from time to time. I have her in 1841 and 1851 censuses. (Down as Durrans in 1851) but I know it is my Sarah as she has the right kids with her.
Refs:
HO107 Piece 441, Folio 14, Page 23.
HO107 Piece 1715, Folio 169, page 46
Happy New Year,
Genie :)
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Hi geniecolgan and others
I notice that the marriage of John Durrant was witnessed by James and Mary Durrant. I have a James Durrant poss. b.1799 in Bovingdon, bricklayer by trade who was my great great great grandfather and had a daughter Elizabeth b.1820. Is there any chance that there is a link between the John you've investigated and the James in my tree? I have a Marriage Certificate for Elizabeth (to William Osborn) with her father's details on it, but little else other than an unconfirmed 1861 Census entry.
All the best
Christopher
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Hi Christopher,
welcome to RootsChat.
Though I am convinced that the Bovingdon and Hemel Hempstead Durrants were kin I have not been able to establish the link.
I think this is your James and Elizabeth in Kings Langley,1841.
Ho107/441/35/2
James 40
Sarah wife 40 (possibly maiden name Steward)
James 18
Thomas 15
George 12
Fanny 10
Elizabeth 8.
Then Sarah died 1847 or 1848.
By 1851, only Elizabeth is still with James in Chipperfield.
Ho107/1715/42/3
James Wid. 48
Elizabeth Dau. 17
By 1861 James is by himself back in Kings Langley.
Hope this helps.
genie
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content removed as irrelevant
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Is anyone interested in photos of Durrants? I have Jonathan William Durrant, if you are interested.
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Hi Wendy, welcome to RootsChat.
Just to confirm we are talking about the same family ...
Your great great grandfather was Jonathan William Durrant, born 1846, in London, who sailed on the Coromandel to Australia in 1854 with his father, Jonathan Durrant (1817-1902), his stepmother Caroline nee Archer (1816-1897) and his sister, Sarah Elizabeth (1851-1913).
He married Margaret Elizabeth Murdoch,1870 in South Australia.
Jonathan William's mother was Sarah Anne Judd, born 1825, died 2 Feb 1852 age 26. Following the death of his mother, his father remarried Caroline Archer 3 Oct 1852.
Sarah Norris was Jonathan William's grandmother. She married John Durrant,1807 in Hemel Hempstead.
So where and when did Matthew Jones look after whose children?
genie :)
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Definitely same family! I will have to go check through the boxes to see where I read about Mathew Jones, it may take me a few days to get to it, meanwhile, here is a pic of Jonathan William Durrant...It won't let me post the photo, It's larger than 500mg and I don't know how to shrink t...
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I have been having a little look at the many boxes that my parents have amassed , and I have found a schoolmaster's report of the progress of the education and health of the immigrants' children on the Coromandel.
I'm not sure if I have anything that would help you, I have so many boxes of things from my parents (John and Betty Durrant) they were very keen and did a lot of research, including the New Zealand and Canadian connections. You are mainly interested in Durrants in the UK?
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Hi Wendy,
No problem. I get mixed up myself sometimes ;D
As you've explained the mix up in your latest posts, I would leave your original post as is.
Happy hunting!
genie :)