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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Hemmum on Thursday 01 January 09 13:24 GMT (UK)
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This is my first posting therefore please forgive any errors. I have been tracing my family using BDM certificates and census returns, now for Parish records! I have used Family Search but all the results are from "submitted" files which I am aware (through your very helpful forum search) are not totally reliable and need checking, which I would be really grateful for help/direction.
What I know from census/BDM is;
My paternal grandmother was Mary (Polly) CROSSMAN born 25th July 1855 Morwellhan Tavistock Devon.
Her father was Robert CROSSMAN Labourer born circa 1815 Tavistock died 1869 her mother was Eliza JAGOE born circa 1817 Tavistock.
On the 1841 and 1851 census the family were living in Brook Street, Buckland but in 1861 ? Murrel Lane Tavistock St Paul (I would appreciate clarification if possible). The last census entry I found is 1871 for Eliza (widow) occupation Charwoman as head of household at Tavistock St Paul's which I think is Morwelhan.
The only other fact I have is that on the 1851 census Robert CROSSMAN brother John CROSSMAN born 1801 Tavistock was living with the family.
This is where my calculations may be iffy and I need help / conformation. (submitted files)
I looked on family search for parents of two sons Robert (my ggranfather) and John and found a George CROSSMAN 1781-1846 married to Elizabeth 1778-1845 (no surname would love to know).
then George's parents
John CROSSMAN 1744-???? married to Joan 1746-????
then John's parents
John CROSSMAN ???? and Christian EASTLAKE ????
These names and dates could be very useful but (am I being greedy) are only names.
Sorry for the long message but thought I should give as much information as possible.
On my 2009 wish list is. Are these names correct? How can I find out more i.e. what Parish records can be checked? What more can I find out about these people (not very interesting I suppose but they are my family).
Thank you in advance for any help offered
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Robert CROSSMAN was baptised at Tavistock 20 Dec 1815, son of George & Elizabeth CROSSMAN of Higher Brook Street; father a labourer. Eliza JAGOE was not baptised at Tavistock as far as I can see.
George CROSSMAN married Elizabeth FORD 4 May 1799 at Tavistock.
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Dear DOB
Thank you so much for your reply
Could you please let me know where you found the record for George Crossman married to Elizabeth FORD?
If the record was from Family Search then these records show (submitted) that this George CROSSMAN born 1778 married Elizabeth FORD who was born 1772 but those records also show she was deceased 1811 which was 4 years before my Robert CROSSMAN (my gggfather) was born in 1815.
I think that Elizabeth FORD was married to my ggggfathers cousin and that they (George 1778 and my gggfather George Crossman 1781 who also married an Elizabeth ????) perhaps shared a grandfather John CROSSMAN. (there seemed to be a shorage of names in those days!!
I think this is why I need to check /know/where to check the original records unless I am completely misreading the information.
Thank you again for your help
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My information comes from the parish registers for Tavistock, transcribed by the Devon Family History Society.
The IGI/LDS family search also gives this marriage date, and shows a baptism for George of 1776 which would match a 1799 marriage date. The baptism information for Robert in 1815 is definitely from the parish registers and clearly states George & Elizabeth. Elizabeth was not buried at Tavistock between 1813-1839.
Hope this helps.
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Dear DOB7
Thank you for your help. It is great news that you confirm that Roberts born 1815 parents were definitely George and Elizabeth (although I still am not sure which of the two more of that below). Can I get a copy of the Parish record and is there any more information available on the registration? How do you search the Devon Family HS records?
I have re-looked at my research and still need to keep looking.
The problem regarding which George and Elizabeth were his parents is that there are two George CROSSMANS both married to an Elizabeth on Family Search.
A) I believe is more likely
A) George Crossman born about 1781 Tavistock married Mrs Elizabeth Crossman about 1803 Tavistock Devon (so I am looking for a marriage about 1803 (but perhaps as early as 1801 due to the birth of their first child John 1801).
George's parents were John Crossman born 1744 and Joan born 1746
George and Mrs Elizabeth Crossman's seven children were;
John 1801 (perhaps christened 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock, he was living with Robert on the 1851 census), William 1802, Joan 1804, Mary 1807, Elizabeth 1810, William 1812, Robert 1815.
I would be interested to find if there are records of these births in Parish records.
George 1779 and Elizabeth 1778 were alive in 1841 and were on the same page as Robert 1815 living at Brook Street Tavistock. I believe they were Roberts parents. The other family at the same property is John Briant 1781 and Caroline Briant 1830 I know of no relationship but it is obviously possible and may be of interest.
B) George Crossman about 1776 married Elizabeth Ford born 1774 Tavistock
4 May 1799 Tavistock (this is the marriage you suggested which I doubt).
George's parents were William Crossman 1748 and Ann Rubby .
George and Elizabeth Ford three children were;
Elizabeth 1802, George 1806, William 1806 (neither Robert or his brother John).
There is only one George and Elizabeth on the 1841 census and as I mentioned they were living next door to Robert.
There is a death registered at Tavistock for George 1840 Tavistock Apr-June and Family search gives a burial date for Elizabeth Ford 7 Sep 1811 Tavistock (these I believe to be George and Elizabeth B)
So I still need to find out who Mrs Elizabeth Crossman was.
On family search there is a burial 12 August 1845 Tavistock and a similar entry BDM I have therefore ordered a death certificate that I hope may help.
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Delighted to read your posts as I am a descendant of Robert CROSSMAN and Eliza JAGO, and their son John CROSSMAN who was born in 1846 in Tavistock and died in 1918 in Tharsis Huelva Spain where there a small cemetery called the cemetery of the English containing several CROSSMAN graves. In the 1871 census John CROSSMAN is found in Calstock Cornwall (living in the same road as William LANG who later married John CROSSMAN's sister Eliza).
Your queried the address in the 1861 census at which Robert CROSSMAN lived. My interpretation of it is not Murrel Road but Morwelham.
Have you used a genealogy program to record your findings as I would welcome a GEDCOM file to check and compare with what I have.
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DOB7
In an earlier message you said that Eliza JAGO did not appear to have been baptised in Devon, however the censuses of 1841, 1851, 1861 all show that she was born in Devon, the 1851 and 1861 censuses show her born in Tavistock. Her age shown in 1841 and 1861 indicates she was born about 1815. Please check for her again Tavistock about 1815.
Also can you find a baptism of William GILCHRIST born about 1805 at Devonport?
Thanks
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Actually, what I said was that she was not baptised in Tavistock - I have checked the registers. That doesn't mean she wasn't born there. She may have been baptised in her mother or father's parish, in a non-conformist Church or not at all.
Stoke Damerel registers show the baptism for a William GILCHRIST on 19 Aug 1804, son of Joseph & Ann, said to be born 31 Jul 1804. He was one of 7 children baptised by them between 1802 and 1811.
The parents are still alive in 1851:
32 Cumberland St, Stoke Damerel HO/107/1881 Folio:147 Page: 41
Joseph GILCHRIST Head Marr 73 Market Toll Collector b. Falmouth, Cornwall
Ann GILCHRIST Wife Marr 75 b. Falmouth, Cornwall
Eliza EDWARDS Daur Marr 39 b. Devonport, Devon
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Mary (Polly) Crossman's eldest brother was Robert Croker Crossman who married in Australia:
CROSSMAN, Robert Croker.
Biographical register 1873
Born: 1843
Place: Nerring
Married: 1873 Victoria
Spouse: Snell, Elizabeth Jane
Source: Eaglehawk & district pioneer register.
Author/compiler: O'Donohue, Annette and Hanson, Bev. p./no. 198
Elizabeth Jane Snell (née JAMES) was the widow of John Snell
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Hi...finally found it! William Gilchrist was my G-G-G Grandfather. I'm particularly interested to see the Australian connection. A deceased relative told me that family members here in Canada used to correspond with family in Australian but I could never find out the 'who'. I'm so pleased to have heard from you and have had many questions already answered. Do you have any idea yet where William's father came from? Lynne
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Joseph GILCHRIST was baptised at Falmouth 27 Jan 1779 (born 5 Dec 1778), son of John & Lucey GILCHRIST.
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Delightful!! I am currently vacationing in Florida but when I get home I will update and upload the family tree. I guess we are 'related' through William's son Joseph James (mine) and his daughter Emma (yours).
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We're not related at all (although I live in Florida :-)) - I'm merely providing a look-up.
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Oh so that's where you both are, Honeybee and DOB7, sunning yourselves in Florida! Very nice too. It's not bad here in West Sussex either!
DOB7, the IGI has Robert CROSSMAN m. Eliza JAGO abt 1838 at Tavistock DEV (FHL film 457050) which appears incorrect as they had a daughter Mary or Polly CROSSMAN born on 4 Nov 1836 d/o Robert CROSSMAN & Eliza JAGO at Tavistock DEV (FHL film 457050 & 445897 ref 81616). All were residing in Tavistock in the 1841 census and Robert and Eiza were born in Tavistock.
Can you find the marriage in parish registers which I fancy would be in about 1835?
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I've checked all of the marriage registers for the 20 parishes within the Tavistock Deanery and the 12 parishes within the Tamerton Deanery - they did not marry there. However, I finally tracked them down at Plymouth St Andrew 27 November 1835.
So, using that, I looked for baptisms in the Plymouth area.
Plymouth St Andrew
Eliza JAGO 2 Jul 1820 dau of Thomas & Ann
Stoke Damerel
Eliza Elizabeth JAGO 4 Jun 1820 dau of John & Mary (mariner)
Elizabeth JAGO 16 Apr 1815 dau of Thomas & Elizabeth (shipwright)
Elizabeth JAGO 18 Jun 1815 dau of John & Rebecca (joiner)
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Thanks. Do you have the full entry in the marriage register of Plymouth St Andrew 27 November 1835?
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No, but you can ask the Devon Record Office for a transcript which they will e-mail. http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office.htm
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I believe that Robert CROSSMAN and Eliza JAGEO did have a daughter Mary CROSSMAN who was born 1835/6 she was with her parents on the 1841 census. Her death was registered in Tavistock 1843. There was a second daughter Mary (Polly) CROSSMAN who was born 1855 and was my gg.mother. In total Robert and Eliza had 9-10 children.
DOB7
Thank you for the marriage for Robert and Eliza registered at Plymouth St Andrew 1835.
Further to my post 5 Jan 2009.
Is there any chance that a marriage is also registered there for Roberts father George CROSSMAN to 'Mrs Elizabeth Crossman' around 1801?
I sent for the death certificate for Elizabeth CROSSMAN which gives her date of death as 9 Aug 1845 Back Street Tavistock. aged 67 (d.o.b 1778) her husband George CROSSMAN labourer was present at the death. So no further forward to finding her maiden name.
As mentioned previously there were probably two George Crossman's married to an Elizabeth.
(my George) (a) George born 1781 and Elizabeth 1778 on same page as son Robert born 1815 at Brook Street Tavistock on the 1841 census. Their other son John born 1801 was with Richard on the 1851 census.
b) George born 1776 married 4 May 1779 in Tavistock to Elizabeth nee FORD born 1774.
As my George 1781 was with the family 1841 and alive when Elizabeth died in 1845 I believe that the death registered in 1840 was for George (b), and that my George died 1846.
Could you please look at baptism records for George CROSSMAN'S around the dates 1776-1781. I could be wrong but believe that my George (a) parents were John and Joan whereas George (b) parents were William and Ann.
Thanks in advance for any help offered and welcome to all the other Crossman's who have joined in.
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The Devon Record Office has replied:
Robert CROSSMAN and Eliza JAGO were married in church by Banns on 27th November,1835. The vicar was C.A.J. SMITH and the witnesses are given as Margaret JAGO and Bowen TREGIDON (?) - entry in marriage register of St Andrew Plymouth transcribed by Devon Record Office.
The parents are not named so Margaret JAGO could be mother, sister, aunt or niece of Eliza JAGO.
I think the parentage of Robert and Eliza probably can only be confirmed by finding Wills and Probate/Administration perhaps at Devon Record Office. It would be worthwhile to look for Margaret JAGO in the 1841 census.
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Hi DOB7
I have looked for a Margaret JAGO in the 1841 census and there are two:
Thomas JAGO and Margaret JAGO both aged 40 and both born Devon living in Tavistock DEV
John JAGO aged 40 and Margaret JAGO aged 45 both born Devon and living in Wellington St Stoke Damerel borough of Devenport
The ages were rounded to the nearest five years in the 1841 census, but I fancy that Thomas JAGO was the father of Eliza JAGO since her son John named two children Thomas Jago Crossman, both died as infants.
Can you find the marriages of Thomas Jago and Margaret likely in Tavistock and John Jago and Margaret maybe in Devonport?
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Further to last posting, the 1841 Census shows Thomas and Margaret JAGO living in Back Strret Tavistock which is where Elizabeth Crossman died on 9 Aug 1845. So it is almost certain that Thomas JAGO and Margaret are the parents of Eliza JAGO. Glad if you can find the marriage of Thomas and Margaret about 1810-15 likely in Tavistock.
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Tavistock PRs:
14 Jun 1820 Thomas JAGO = Margaret KINSMAN
Then, Eureka!!!!!
6 May 1817 Eliza KINSMAN base born dau of Margaret KINSMAN, Spinster of Barley Market Street
22 May 1820 Joseph KINSMAN base born son of Margaret KINSMAN, Spinster of Barley Market Street
A Caleb aged 48 & Susannah aged 45 KINSMAN were living at 26 Barley Market Street, Tavistock in 1851. (Their children's baptisms also stated Barley Market St as abode). Presumably, Caleb was a brother of Margaret's.
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Wait, there's more!!
Brook Street Independent CHapel, Tavistock:
11 Dec 1797 Margaret KINSMAN dau of John & Margaret KINSMAN (born 8 Dec 1797)
9 Oct 1802 Caleb KINSMAN son of John & Margaret KINSMAN (born 2 Oct 1802)
John KINSMAN = Margaret POPE 19 Jul 1789.
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Thanks DOB7. So now we are related to the Pope?
Let's backtrack, you are suggesting that Eliza JAGO, whose baptism you could not find in Tavistock may be Eliza KINSMAN baptised 6 May 1817? Since Eliza married Robert Crossman in 1835 in Plymouth, I wonder if that is where Thomas Jago was living at the time. Is there a baptism for Eliza Jago in Plymouth about 1815?
Secondly, regarding the parents of Robert Crossman, George Crossman and Elizabeth Unknown, can you find a marriage registration in Tavistock 1795-1820 of George Crossman and Elizabeth Croker? I ask because Robert Crossman named two of his children who died in infancy Thomas Jago Crossman, and another who survived to adulthood, Robert Croker Crossman.
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Found a posting on Rootsweb Message Board:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.jago/62.79.82.1.1/mb.ashx
From: ------ (no longer valid email address)
Subject: Re: Jago- Tavistock
Date: 19 Feb 2002 12:20:35 -0700
This is absolutely fantastic they are also my ancestors or a line from then Margaret Jago Married Thomas Jago - Margaret was sister to Elizabeth Rosamond Kinsman who married Richard Osborn. I know my tree has gone slightly sideways but it all helps. Thomas and Margaret also had a son called Thomas who married a Dinah Pennington. They had a son called William Henry Pennington Jago and he married Emma Osborn the granddaughter of Elizabeth and Richard Osborn. They all came from Tavistock in Devon and most of them are buried there.
Moderator's Note: email address removed
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Thomas JAGO married Margaret KINSMAN in 1820. Margaret JAGO was a witness at the marriage of Eliza JAGO and Robert CROSSMAN. ELiza JAGO was born ca 1817 in Tavistock according to all records. As her mother, Margaret wasn't married until 1820, her 2 illegitimate children (Eliza & Joseph) were baptised under her name KINSMAN in 1817 and 1820 respectively. Robert CROSSMAN obviously gave them his name - whether or not he was the father I don't know - possibly of the boy Joseph as the baptism was only a short period before the wedding in 1820.
The only marriage in Tavistock for a George CROSSMAN is to Elizabeth FORD 4 May 1799.
However, here's some new findings:
Kelly Parish
21 Sept 1803 George CROSSMAN = Elizabeth JAGO
Bridestowe parish
23 Sep 1760 Thomas CROCKER = Mary CROSSMAN
That's all I have time for I'm afraid.
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Anne Mackean has them in her family tree:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/c/Anne-Marie-Mackean-western-australia/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0779.html
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Hi Anne Mackean here - got your message on ancestry.
Well this is all very interesting. I did not have any idea that Margaret Jago (nee Kinsman) had two children out of wedlock.
You think that Eliza Kinsman b 1817 took on the name Jago later on. Do you know what happened to the other child Joseph b 1820. I ask this because THomas and Margaret's last born child (that I have) was named Joseph Tucker Jago. Now theres another name (Tucker) to thro into the discussion.
Regards
Anne (Western Australia)
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Joseph KINSMAN was buried at Tavistock 30 Nov 1822 aged 3, so presumably he was born in 1819 and she didn't baptise him until May 1820. I also found a baptism for an Elizabeth Crocker KINSMAN dau of Caleb & Susanna of Barley Market St in 1829, and her subsequent burial in 1830 as ELizabeth Croker KINSMAN, so it would appear that the Crocker/Croker connection is on the Kinsman side.
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Thanks DOB7, can you find the marriage of Caleb KINSMAN and Susanna?
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Yes, he married Susanna CROCKER 31 Mar 1828 at East Stonehouse Church (St. George's).
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Thanks DOB7, I thought that would be the case, and in the 1871 census of Morwellham St Pauls Tavistock, the home of widowed Eliza CROSSMAN, there is Susanah KINSMAN, a visitor, also widowed, aged 64 b. Launceston CON. So I think it all falls nicely into place. Thanks very much and I hope we can make some progress with the Crossman lineage when i hear back from the Devon record Office. Happy Easter!
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Hello DOB7, to see if they had a middle name and/or abode, please would you look up the burials in Tavistock PRs of:
Robert CROSSMAN Jul-Sep 1869
John CROSSMAN Jan-Mar 1853
John CROSSMAN Jul-Sep 1859
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I don't have access to burials after 1839. They were probably buried in the Dolvin Road Cemetery, and a transcription of the burial register is available at the Plymouth & West Devon Record Office.
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Thanks DOB7 for the information regarding bap of Eliza KINSMAN / JAGO later CROSSMAN.
What super very *friendly* personhing your work has certainly broken down 'a brick wall'.
Regarding your post 8.4.09
"Kelly Parish 21 Sept 1803 George CROSSMAN = Elizabeth JAGO"
Is there any further information available on the record?
Well perhaps another Jago link! (the year would seem suitable). Are they any baptisms in the same register for their children?
Where is Kelly Parish? (Apologies my geography of the area is sparse)
It may be that George CROSSMAN and Elizabeth had possibly six children, from John born 1801 (possibly christened 1804) until Robert born circa 1815. On the census Robert always gives his place of birth as Tavistock but John the first born (if I have the correct person) usually gave Tavistock as his place of birth but on the 1871 census says Whitchurch as his place of birth (but maybe I have a different John)
Thank you again for your hard work. Happy Easter.
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Sorry, the Kelly record is only from an index - no more information shown. Details about Kelly (which is 7 miles from Tavistock) can be found at:
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Kelly/index.html - if you scroll down to 'Genealogy' you'll find out how to contact the online parish clerk for the parish who will provide free look-ups and may be able to elaborate further.
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Hi DOB7 Unfortunately Deborah Carmichael the OPC for East Devon is no longer contactable as her email address on the OPC website is no longer valid:
http://www.geocities.com/opcdevon/index.html
My email enquiry to opcdevon at acay.com.au as to whether there is an OPC covering Tavistock and Kelly parishes was returned "bad destination", so unless you know who is the OPC for Tavistock there will be no look-ups for Tavistock other than you and Devon Record Office!
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There is no OPC for Tavistock, but there is for Kelly - see http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Kelly/index.html as I previously indicated. (I am the originator of the Devon OPC scheme). Deborah Carmichael never covered any of the parishes in which you are interested. Neil Stanton covers Kelly.
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Thanks. Regarding the search for George Crossman's marriage to Elizabeth, it is likely to be records of his sons Robert and John and other siblings which will help to find the correct marriage. You found Robert's baptism on 20 Dec 1815, son of George & Elizabeth CROSSMAN of Higher Brook Street Tavistock. John is aged 50 in the 1851 census therefore born in Tavistock about 1801 and the IGI has his baptism on 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock (IGI Batch Number 7431232). Please would you you look up John's baptism to see if there is an abode. Is it easy for you to see if there are baptisms for other siblings between the years John and Robert were born?
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I'm sorry - my Tavistock resources are limited. (I am using the Devon FHS indices which are available through the society for purchase. They cover baptisms & burials 1813-1837 and marriages 1754-1837. For other dates, you will have to contact the Devon Record Office where you can purchase fiche of the registers or pay a fee to have them conduct the research.
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Thanks, IGI Batch Number 7431232 has these baptisms:
John CROSSMAN c. 19 Feb 1804, unmarried in 1841 & 1851 censuses which indicate b. abt 1801.
Robert CROSSMAN c. 20 Dec 1815, married 27 Nov 1835 Tavistock
William CROSSMAN c. 17 Aug 1808, must have died because another William was chr 1812
These below either died as infants or survived and maybe married bef 1841:
Joan CROSSMAN c. 19 Feb 1804
Mary CROSSMAN c. 18 May 1807
Elizabeth CROSSMAN c. 18 Aug 1810
William CROSSMAN c. 14 Oct 1812
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Hello DOB7,
Previously you found the baptisms of Robert CROSSMAN c. 20 Dec 1815 Tavistock DEV s/o George CROSSMAN a labourer & Elizabeth of Higher Brook Street.IGI Batch 7431232
Our problem was that the mother's maiden name was not recorded there or in her death certificate.
The death certificate of George CROSSMAN, civil regs Jun 1846 Tavistock vol 9 page 271, shows he died aged 66 on 2 Jun 1846 at Lower Back Street Tavistock and in the informant column, the mark of George X CROSSMAN of Back Street Tavistock present at death
His age agrees to the age shown in the 1841 census (+/- 1 year), so I think this is the George we are interested in and it appears he has a relative George who was informant although the relationship is not stated.
If the informant was his son, this may be him: George CROSSMAN c. 19 Apr 1806 Tavistock s/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth FORD IGI Film 457769 & 448044
However the only George born about 1806 I can find in the 1841 census lives with wife Mary in Ilfacombe. In the 1881 census there is a George born 1835 Tavistock living with wife Sarah, and the IGI indicates a baptism of this George on 13 May 1836 at Tavistock. Can you find this baptism?
Can you find another George born about 1806 in Tavistock in the 1851 census?
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THe 1836 GEorge CROSSMAN baptism shown on the IGI is a Bible Christian baptism at the Shebbear Chapel, and not therefore on the Tavistock parish register. According to the IGI, his parents were George CROSSMAN & Sarah MULLISS. I have no idea who they are - you will need to have the DFHS marriage index for CROSSMAN searched.
THe 1851 census shows GEorge 1806 & wife Mary living in Tavistock, with 2 children born in Ilfracombe and 2 in Tavistock.
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Thank you. Below are the entries in baptism registers of Tavistock which need to be seen and checked:
John CROSSMAN c. 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock DEV s/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232 who was born about 1801 per 1851 census
Joan CROSSMAN c. 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock DEV d/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232
Mary CROSSMAN c. 18 May 1807 Tavistock DEV d/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232
William CROSSMAN c. 17 Aug 1808 Tavistock DEV died 19 Feb 1812 s/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232
Elizabeth CROSSMAN c. 18 Aug 1810 Tavistock DEV d/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232
William CROSSMAN c. 14 Oct 1812 Tavistock DEV s/o George CROSSMAN & Elizabeth IGI Batch 7431232
Robert CROSSMAN c. 20 Dec 1815 Tavistock DEV s/o George CROSSMAN a labourer & Elizabeth of Higher Brook Street.IGI Batch 7431232
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Any disagreements? I would be reluctant to disagree with others more experienced and as I said on my first post as I have only started with the IGI I could easily misunderstand the information.
I assume from your post you are combining the children of George and Elizabeth Ford and George and Elizabeth into one family?
You have used IGI film 457769. My first reason to believed that they were two families is the Family Group Record from this film it shows a burial for Elizabeth Ford 7 Sep 1811 Tavistock Devon. Her birth is given as 1774 Tavistock and her marriage to George Crossman 4 May 1799. There are only three children mentioned Elizabeth 1802, George 1806 and William 1806. These three children are on film 457769.
If Elizabeth Ford was buried in 1811 that was before William 1812 and Robert 1815 were born. Because of the 1851 we also know that John 1804 was Roberts brother. I then assumed that the seven children on IGI batch were not her children but belonged to another Elizabeth who married another George Crossman.
My second reason for believing there were families is that as I said in previous posts is that there were two George's married to an Elizabeth. I believe that the George married to Elizabeth Ford was the other Georges cousin.
The IGI film 488044 shows both Georges.
Page 0075 ref 1107. George Crossman christened 16 Jan 1776 Tavistock father William Crossman mother Ann Rubby who married Elizabeth Ford 4 May 1799.
Page 0037 ref 0971. George Crossman christened 2 Mar 1781 Tavistock father John Crossman mother Joan. Spouse is unavailable.
According to the 1841 census we are looking for George Crossman born 1779 +or- and according to his death certificate he was born about 1780. I feel that the second George is more likely.
The only other possible reference to a possible marriage for the second George on the IGI has no source available but gives a marriage about 1803 Tavistock Devon to Mrs Elizabeth Crossman. However the burial date is 4 Jun 1846 (which agrees) and the christening date is 2 Mar 1781 Taviststock.
It is interesting that George Crossman witnessed the death of George Crossman in 1846. One would assume that it would be a close family member (would a cousin count)?
We know that George Crossman was living next door to his youngest son Robert on the 1841 census in Brook Street Tavistock. We know that George witnessed the death of his wife Elizabeth 9 Aug 1845 at Brook Street Tavistock. George Crossman dies 10 months later at the same address. Perhaps it does seem strange that Robert was not present and likely to assume that George was also a son.
DOB7
Is it possible to check if there was a death/burial for Elizabeth Crossman nee Ford on 7 Sep 1811 in Tavistock as given on IGI film 457769.
This may clarify the problem. You help would be appreciated.
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I only have access to burials 1813-1837 - sorry!
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I have been in contact with anne we emailed each other over 2 years ago, My name is Jacqui and I come from the line of Elizabeth Rosamond Kinsman married Richard Osborn I have many name on my tree and will now enter my tree on this site as there seems to be a lot of people out there, my names include Osborn, jago, Kinsman, Hodge, Rowe, Cocks, Pope, Crispin, I live not too far from Tavistock and have headstone photos of Andrew Osborn son of Richard and Elizabeth. Glad to be of any assistance to anyone who wants it. I just love this!
Found a posting on Rootsweb Message Board:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.jago/62.79.82.1.1/mb.ashx
From: ------ (no longer valid email address)
Subject: Re: Jago- Tavistock
Date: 19 Feb 2002 12:20:35 -0700
This is absolutely fantastic they are also my ancestors or a line from then Margaret Jago Married Thomas Jago - Margaret was sister to Elizabeth Rosamond Kinsman who married Richard Osborn. I know my tree has gone slightly sideways but it all helps. Thomas and Margaret also had a son called Thomas who married a Dinah Pennington. They had a son called William Henry Pennington Jago and he married Emma Osborn the granddaughter of Elizabeth and Richard Osborn. They all came from Tavistock in Devon and most of them are buried there.
Moderator's Note: email address removed
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Welcome Jacqui Actually this is DOB7's department as the person who set up the Online Parish Clerks for Devon of which regretably there is none for Tavistock. The rest of us are not from the area and know very little about it so I am sure you can help. We are interested in different families - Hemmum and I are interested in Crossmans likely to be buried at Dolvin Road Cemetery but we have not located the burial records which are not at Plymouth and West Devon as DOB7 suggested earlier, but maybe Exeter Record Office who are not replying to emails at the moment. This is the best place for any of us to put any new findings for all to see and any help from DOB7 and you will be much appreciated. I am sure DOB7 would be delighted if you become a Devon Online Parish Clerk for Tavistock!
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Ok Just a bit about Tavistock it is a Mining Town and was linked very much to Plympton as these were both made into Stannary town, The Jagos were mainly cabinet makers and carpenters, Osborns were a mining family, Dolvin Road cemetary was the first to be used and was closed in 1881 so you will not find many records relating to that one. There are a few headstones remaining in it although somewhat overgrown and quite creepy. A new cemetary was put to use from 1881 and is call Plymouth Road Cemetary, you can get lists of you is interred there as long as you are prepared to pay per search and per name usually about £10 - £15 they also have a list of who maystill be in Dolvin Road. I have a small list of Jago names at both cemetaries. Don't forget to have look at the Tavistock Union Workhouse records also very handy. I hope I can be of some use and will help with any questions about any of the names i am looking for, also you might want to look at a site about Walkhampton this is not far from Tavistock and you could find Crossman there and also the DFHS have burial list for each individual names. I will be here again tomorrow, battery going on laptop, Good luck hope to hear from you all soon, Jacqui
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I've been preparing a tree for the Tavistock Kinsman line, which will eventually be published on the Kinsman family tree site here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/kinsman/andrewkinsman/home.html
It includes Elizabeth Rosamund, Margaret & Caleb who have already been discussed in this thread.
John Kinsman & Sarah were the parents of:
John Kinsman (shoemaker; bap 01 Sep 1760 The Abbey Chapel-Presbyterian, Tavistock; d. 26 Nov 1838 Tavistock 9/317) mar. Margaret Pope (bap. 19 Jul 1759 Tavistock; d. 22 Dec 1836 Tavistock) 19 Jul 1789 Tavistock
Children of John & Margaret:
1. Elizabeth Rosamund (bap 22 Aug 1790 The Abbey Chapel-Presbyterian, Tavistock; d. 17 Apr 1856 Tavistock) mar. Richard Osborn 7 Jan 1814 Tavistock
2. Savina (bap. 13 Feb 1793 The Abbey Chapel-Presbyterian, Tavistock) mar. Henry Rowe (b. c.1779 Camelford, Cornwall) 2 Dec 1811 Stoke Damerel
3. Margaret (b. 8 Dec 1797; bap 11 Dec 1797, Brook St Independent, Tavistock; d. 3 Jan 1848 Tavistock) mar. Thomas Jago 14 Jun 1820 Tavistock and had eight children.
Prior children of Margaret:
3-1. Eliza (baseborn; bap. 6 May 1817 Tavistock) took on Jago name and mar Robert Crossman 27 Nov 1835 St Andrew Plymouth
3-2. Joseph (baseborn; bap. 22 May 1820 Tavistock; bur. 30 Nov 1822 Tavistock age 3)
4. Caleb (general labourer; b. 2 Oct 1802; bap 9 Oct 1802, Brook St Independent, Tavistock; d. Q1 1869 Plymouth 5b/221 age 66) mar Susannah Crocker (b. c1807 Launceston; d. Q4 1888 Leominster age 83 6a/321) 31 Mar 1828 East Stonehouse Church (St. George's)
Children of Caleb & Susanna:
4-1. Elizabeth Crocker (b. 10 Mar 1829 Tavistock; bur. 15 Aug 1830 Tavistock aged 1)
4-2. Achsah (b. 12 May 1831; bap 31 May 1831, Brook St Independent, Tavistock; d. 9 Jul 1831 Bere Ferrers, Devon)
4-3. John Crocker Kinsman (tailor but served in Royal Marines from 1854 until he was invalidated out in 1863: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-5517900&FullDetails=True&j=1&Gsm=2008-08-08; b. 8 May 1833 & bap 9 Jun 1833 Wesleyan, Tavistock; d. Q1 1919 Exeter 5b/154 age 81) mar Mary Ann Drew (b.c.1835 Lostwithiel, Cornwall; d. Q2 1870 East Stonehouse 5b/223) Q2 1855 East Stonehouse, Devon 5b/497 and later married Annie Hutchings (b.c1836 Tiverton) Q4 1877 Bromley, Kent 2a/565
Children of John Crocker & Mary Ann:
4-3-1. John George (b. Q1 1858 Stonehouse, Devon 5b/280)
4-3-2. Mary Louisa (b. Q4 1862 Stonehouse, Devon 5b/304)
4-3-3. Alfred James (b. Q2 1864 Harberton, Totnes 5b/200) mar. Annie Laura Ashwood (b. c.1872, Edgbaston, Birmingham) Q3 1890 Stoke Upon Trent, Staffs 6b/348
Children of Alfred J & Annie L:
4-3-3-1. Maud Mary (b. Q3 1891 Tunstall, Staffs 6b/120; d. Q3 1907 Tunstall, Staffs 6b/67; age 16)
4-3-3-2. Alfred James (b. Q2 1893 Tunstall, Staffs 6b/153)
4-3-3-3. Eva Constance Mary (b. Q3 1896 Tunstall, Staffs 6b/102; d. Q4 1913 Congleton, Staffs; age 17)
4-3-3-4. Leslie John (b. Q1 1900 Tunstall, Staffs 6b/101)
4-3-3-5. Anne Laura D. (b. Q3 1902 Wolstanton, Staffs 6b/108)
Children of John Crocker & Ann:
4-3-4. Annie Maud (b. Q3 1878 Tiverton, Devon 5b/430)
4-3-5. William Caleb (b. Q2 1880 Exeter, Devon 5b/78)
4-4. William Croker (stonemason; b. Q3 1838 Tavistock 9/438; d. 22 Mar 1915 Plymouth 5b/539) mar. Jane Osmond Q2 1862 Plymouth 5b/541
4-5. Eliza Jane (b. Q4 1841 Tavistock 9/461) mar George Lamb (b.c1838 Kelso, Scotland) 16 Dec 1866, Plymouth 5b/525
4-6. Charles Henry Croker (seaman on HMS Chanticleer in the Pacific under Captain Bridges; b. 12 Mar 1845 Tavistock 9/470; d. Q1 1898 Birkenhead 8a/359 age 53) mar. Jessie Scott (b. c.1850 Scotland; d. Q2 1895 Birkenhead 8a/335 age 45) 13 Aug 1873 Birkenhead 8a/663
Child of Charles & Jessie:
4-6-1. John Charles (b. Q4 1887 Birkenhead 8a/517)
4-7. Harriett H Croker (b. Q2 1848 Tavistock 9/?) mar Joseph Lloyd (b.c.1833 Tavistock) - can't find marriage on BMD.
Please do let me know of any amendments/additions. DOB7, do you have the b./bap./bur. dates of Elizabeth Crocker/Croker, please?
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Not sure which Elizabeth CROCKER you mean - I've lost the plot here as this isn't one of my lines and all of this discussion was 2 months ago. ???
Elizabeth, dau of Caleb & Margaret was baptised at Tavistock:
Elizabeth Crocker KINSMAN 10 Mar 1829, father a labourer of Barley Market Street.
Let me know if this isn't what you are asking.
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That's the one, many thanks DOB7. Do you have the burial date (from 1830) too, by any chance please?
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15 Aug 1830 aged 1.
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Okay, many thanks DOB7. I've just modified the tree I posted so that it now incorporates this extra info.
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Hello DOB7
On 12 Aug 1813 John KINSMAN m. Christiana CROSSMAN at Stoke Damerel per IGI Batch M052421.
Do you have any additional details of this marriage?
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No, sorry I don't have the marriage PRs for Stoke Damerel, just an index. The Devon Record Office can supply details. I do have a couple of baptisms I have transcribed from Stoke Damerel PRs:
25 Jun 1815 John George KINSMAN s/John & Christianna, father a tallow chandler of Dock
4 May 1817 William KINSMAN s/John & Christianna, father a tallow chandler of Dock
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Thanks.
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Nick, you can find John Kinsman & Christiana Crossman here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/kinsman/andrewkinsman/indiI0370.html
The tree doesn't yet include John George and William (who presumably died in infancy as his brother William Crossman Kinsman was born a couple of years later, after the family moved to Portsea, Hampshire; subsequently the family ended up in Lambeth).
If anyone has anything else that they can amend/add to this tree, please do let me know. Thanks.
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This is my first posting therefore please forgive any errors. I have been tracing my family using BDM certificates and census returns, now for Parish records! I have used Family Search but all the results are from "submitted" files which I am aware (through your very helpful forum search) are not totally reliable and need checking, which I would be really grateful for help/direction.
What I know from census/BDM is;
My paternal grandmother was Mary (Polly) CROSSMAN born 25th July 1855 Morwellhan Tavistock Devon.
Her father was Robert CROSSMAN Labourer born circa 1815 Tavistock died 1869 her mother was Eliza JAGOE born circa 1817 Tavistock.
On the 1841 and 1851 census the family were living in Brook Street, Buckland but in 1861 ? Murrel Lane Tavistock St Paul (I would appreciate clarification if possible). The last census entry I found is 1871 for Eliza (widow) occupation Charwoman as head of household at Tavistock St Paul's which I think is Morwelhan.
The only other fact I have is that on the 1851 census Robert CROSSMAN brother John CROSSMAN born 1801 Tavistock was living with the family.
This is where my calculations may be iffy and I need help / conformation. (submitted files)
I looked on family search for parents of two sons Robert (my ggranfather) and John and found a George CROSSMAN 1781-1846 married to Elizabeth 1778-1845 (no surname would love to know).
then George's parents
John CROSSMAN 1744-???? married to Joan 1746-????
then John's parents
John CROSSMAN ???? and Christian EASTLAKE ????
These names and dates could be very useful but (am I being greedy) are only names.
Sorry for the long message but thought I should give as much information as possible.
On my 2009 wish list is. Are these names correct? How can I find out more i.e. what Parish records can be checked? What more can I find out about these people (not very interesting I suppose but they are my family).
Thank you in advance for any help offered
if you look on my family tree on ancestry you will find some info x
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if you look on my ancestry tree you will find some info x
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Dear All (this post is in two parts)
Part 1
For all those interested in Robert Crossman christened 20 Dec 1813 Tavistock son of George and Elizabeth of Higher Brook Street Tavistock who married Eliza JAGO by banns 27 Nov 1835 at Plymouth St Andrew the vicar was C A J Smith and the Witnesses were Margaret JAGO (Eliza’s mother) and Browen TREGIDON. Eliza was christened 6 May 1817 in Tavistock as KINSMAN base daughter of Margaret KINSMAN of Barley Market Street Tavistock
I have bought as much as DFHS they can provide for the Crossmans. I have had lots of help here on this forum particularly from DOB7. And lastly but at not least, from a really wonderful chap called Alex Mettler who has provided details of the Crossmans buried in Dolvin Road. The information includes abode details of the deceased plus some other family information but sadly only one memorial inscription (which was for Philip 1783 his wife Sarah 1784 and their daughter Mary Ann born 1834).
I am not sure how further forward I am since my first post, But am now confident that there were two George and Elizabeth Crossmans of similar aged living in Tavistock (one a Carpenter and on a Labourer.
We know that Roberts parents were George and Elizabeth of Higher Brook Street.
We know that on the 1841 census George (born 1779 occup Agri Lab) and Elizabeth (born 1778) were living next door to Robert (Agi Lab) and his wife Eliza in Brook Street Tavistock. (there is also a family of Briants living between them who I have been unable to link)
We know that on the 1851 census Roberts brother John born 1801 (Agri Lab) was with Robert and Eliza in Brook Str Tavistock sub registration dist is Buckland
Neither George born 1779 Agir Lab or Elizabeth born 1779 are on the 1851 census.
I have a death certificate for Elizabeth Crossman who died 9 Aug 1845 aged 67 (born1778) she was the wife of George Crossman Labourer who was present at the death at Back Street Tavistock. The burial was in the St Eustachius Register she was buried 12 Aug 1845 in Dolvin Road and her abode was L Back Street. This I believe is our Elizabeth.
I have a death certificate for George Crossman who died 2 Jun 1846 aged 66 (born 1780) his occupation was Labourer and his abode was Lower Back Street Tavistock. George Crossman of Back Street (were was that?) was present at the death (this causes a mystery as I am not sure that George has a son George (see later!) and that Robert or John did not sign – or at least make a mark!) The burial record for George is from St Eustachius Register and that he was buried at Dolvin Road 4 Jun 1846 his abode was L Back Street.
Who were George and Elizabeth? I have found two possible marriages.
George CROSSMAN married Elizabeth FORD 4 May 1799 Tavistock DFHS. I have their marriage certificate it reads” The Year 1799 page 67 entry 1102. George Crossman Carpenter of this Parish and Elizabeth Frod Spinster of this Parish Mmarried in this church by Banns this 4 May 1799. By me (?Chr Fry vicar of Bickleigh). Then follows the mark of George Crossman and Elizabeth Ford. The witnesses were Rixchard Parford (? Born 1767 in 1841 he was a Blacksmith living Ford Str Tavistock wife is Mary?) and Richard Bickle (I do not know who he ws but the Bickels pop up all the time ). Incidenally the next marriage is Richard Cudlip to Grace Walters. Then follows the mark of George Crossman and Elizabeth Ford. The witnesses were Richard Parford (? Born 1767 in 1841 he was a Blacksmith living Ford Str Tavistock wife is Mary?) and Richard Bickle (I do not know who he ws but the Bickels pop up all the time ). This confirms this George was a carpenter.
George CROSSMAN married Elizabeth JAGO 21 Sep 1803 Kelly DFHS. Devon Records Office said ‘The register states that George Crossman and Elizabeth Jago were both sojourners in the parish. They were married by banns and both made their marks. Witnesses, who signed, were William Rundle and Peter Drown. William Rundle witnessed most of the weddings at this time so must have been the parish clerk or churchwarden. Peter Drown was a blacksmith in Kelly who travelled to other parishes but I cannot find any link to the Crossman or Jago family.
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Part 2
We know our Elizabeth was born 1778. I searched the IGI for a candidate and found a Elizabeth Jago christened 25 1778, her parents were Robert Jago and Mary Hender (they married 3 Dec 1776 Maker). This has been confirmed by OPC for Maker. The record C052871 also shows christenings in Maker Cornwall for siblings Robert Jago 1779, John Jago 1782, Ann Jago 1782, Mary Jago 1782, William Hender Jago 1790, Thomas Jago 1792. There is no death for an Elizaabeth Jago until 1833. All this has been confirmed with the Maker OPC.
Of interest is that George and Elizabeth’s last son was Robert born 1813 in Tavistock (our Robert) who Robert married Eliza Jago (base born daughter of Margaret Kinsman). I also think that although John was possibly born 1801 Whitchurch (see later) he was not christened until 1804 with his sister Joan until after the wedding in 1803.
According to the Family Search IGI Film 448044 ref 98387 the children of George Crossman christened 16 Jan 1776 and Elizabeth Ford birth 1774 burial 7 Sep 1811 Tavistock were;
1. Elizabeth Crossman christened 20 Feb 1802
2. George Crossman christened 19 Apr 1806 (was this the George present at Georges death in 1845 but if there are two Georges he was not his son?)
3. William Crossman christened 23 Sep 1806
According to Family Search Batch Number 7431232 Source 0935236 the children of George Crossman and Elizabeth (??) were;
1. John Crossman christened 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock (is this John born1801 who was with his brother Robert on 1851census? If he was the son of Elizabeth Jago then he was born before his parents married?)
2. Joan Crossman christened 19 Feb 1804 Tavistock
3. William Crossman christened 17 Aug 1808 Tavistock died 19 Feb 1812
4. Elizabeth Crossman christened 18 Aug 1810 Tavistock
5. William Crossman christened 14 Oct 1812 Tavistock
6. Robert Crossman christened 20 Dec 1815 Tavistock confirmed by DFHS CD son of George and Elizabeth Crossman of Higher Brook Str Tavistock (unfortunately the records start 1813 so I have been unable to confirm the others)
The children above have been combined as one family the dates would fit the marriage but if the above is correct then Elizabeth Crossman nee Ford died 1811 before the birth of William and Robert.
There are death and burial records for a second George and Elizabeth Crossman.
Elizabeth CROSSMAN from St Eustachius Register was buried (in the churchyard) 7 Sep 1811 aged 37 (born 1774) she was the wife of George.
George CROSSMAN from St Eustachius Register was buried 24 Jun 1840 aged 64 (born 1776) his abode was Exeter Street. (see later re Mary in same Road). I have a death certificate for George CROSSMAN who died 22 Jun 1840 aged 65 (born 1775) his occupation was Carpenter, Philip Crossman of Two Bridges Tavistock was in attendance. (I have looked at the census and I believe Philip was born 1875 and also a Carpenter he died 1868 his parents were William Crossman and Ann Rubby and was ‘this’ Georges brother but this is just my theory can anyone comment?)
Regarding the address of Exeter Street there is a burial entry in the St Eustachius Register for Mary CROSSMAN buried (assume churchyard) 30 Jun 1842 aged 72 (born 1770). As Elizabeth died aged 37 in 1811 I wonder if Mary was a second wife.
I have looked for the siblings of Robert without success. The only other possible glint of light is John born 1801 Whitchurch who was with Robert in 1851. On the 1841 census he was an Agri Lab but was head with apprentices Harvey, Maunder, Middleton and Mitchell living in Whitchurch where he says he was born on one census? By 1861 he was married to Mary born 1805 South Molton and lived at 62 Bannerwell Street Tavistock, were he was living when he was buried 26 Nov 1872 in Dolvin Road. His widow Mary was still living there when she was buried 4 Nov 1883. I can see no children and have been unable to find a suitable marriage which is a real shame.(Can anybody Help!!) If you look at the census beware of John Crossman born 1805 Dartmouth (his father was Henry born 1771) this John married Mary Ann ?Barnett but they both lived at 32 Bannerwell!!
I understand that this is a very long post and hope it makes sense and that you are still with me!
I really have exhausted everything I can think of doing and don’t think I can confidently progress any further. Any suggestions? I don’t think I can go any further,
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I've just registered on RootsChat and having read all the links since January I think I'm coming in a bit late on all the work everyone's done. All the info regarding Robert Crossman (born Tavistock 1815) and his family is fascinating and will be filling alot of gaps for me. His son John (born Tavistock 1845 according to 1851/61/71 census records) is my great grandfather. I'm interested to know if anyone has found any record of his baptism or even a birth certificate. Unless I've missed something I can't find any baptism record (having trawled through microfiche at Devon Records Office in Exeter). There is one lead on the BMD index which suggests a John Crossman born in South Molton in 1845, but I'm wary of this and haven't yet investigated further. Any help, or suggestions gratefully received. I was interested to see that Hemmum's paternal grandmother was Mary (Polly) Crossman, born Morwellham, 1855. She was the younger sister of my great grandmother Eliza Crossman (born Tavistock 1850) who later married William Henry Lang, one of whose daughters (Mary (Polly) Lang) married one of John's sons James Eddy Crossman (born Calstock 16th August 1869) in Gibraltar Cathedral on 4th Sept. 1908 - these are my grandparents. I'm very interested in the 'Spanish connection' and I was very interested to read from Cotton Historian that John was buried in the English Cemetery in Tharsis, Huelva in 1918. This has helped put a big piece of jigsaw in place. I have a little bit of information including a copy of James and Polly's marriage certificate should this interest anyone. I'm also interested in any information regarding James's brother William John (born Calstock 7th April 1867, Calstock) and Frederick Robert (born Calstock 4th May 1871) I'm assuming they all trooped off to Huelva in the early-mid 1870s when the fortunes of some of the mines at Okeltor, Calstock went into decline. Sorry this is long and rambling but any information will be gratefully received :)
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Hi. John Crossman was born on 11 Oct 1846 as submitted to the IGI (FHL films 457050 & 445921) and per Robert Reid's notes (son-in-law) in my possession. It appears John was not baptised, nor was his birth registered, but I have a scan of his death certificate which I can send you if you respond to my PM. The Crossmans in Spain are helping me to draw up their family tree and we are learning quite a lot. In fact John was not buried in the "Cemetery of the English" in Tharsis but the protestant section of the main Tharsis cemetery. I can also tell you about Frederick Robert Crossman and his two children, but alas I think William John Crossman died young in Tharsis, but I am awaiting confirmation of that. I have a letter written by your grandfather to his half-sister Elisa about 1930 from Saltash. I am a descendant of James Eddy's sister Emma Victoria Crossman who married Robert Reid. Looking forward to hearing from you by email and, yes, I would appreciate receiving either a scan or your transcription of James Eddy Crossman and Polly Lang's marriage certificate.
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Hello DOB7
Joan CROSSMAN died aged 57 and was buried on 28 Mar 1803 at Lamerton. Do your reference materials give any further information. I have asked Brian Shepherd who has no further details just a simple table.
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Hi Weald to Tamar
Welcome to Rootschat. I am sorry but I have also been unable to find a birth or baptism record for John born 1845. Some of the family were non-conformists and were baptised at Brook Street Independent. There are also some Crossmans in The Abbey Presbyterian records.
You noticed that there was a John Crossman registered 1845 in South Molton. On the 1861 census there is a John Crossman born abt 1801 who is possibly Roberts brother living (62) Bannerwell Street who's wife Mary was born 1805 in South Molton (I do not know who she was, not for the want of trying). There may a connection to the area. Might be worth sending for the certificate.
Don't apologize for long posts - have you seen mine!
Regards
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Hello Hemmum,
Thanks for your message and thoughts about John (1845) or thereabouts. I've had contact with Cotton Historian who has given me lots of info on John and the family, but the feeling is John's birth wasn't registered and neither was he baptised. However, I'd also wondered about the non-conformist possibility. I may have a look at the South Molton certificate although I think this is going to be another set of Crossmans, as there do seem to be clusters all over Devon - Walkhampton (near Horrabridge, just south of Tavistock) and Chittlehampton west of South Molton for instance.
Thanks again - I'll plough on!
All the best :)
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I have just received the marriage certificate for George Crossman’s second marriage 29 Oct 1848 at the Independent Chapel in the Tavistock Union to Mary Jane Carter. (His first marriage was to Mary Oats 1803-1836). His Fathers name is given as George Crossman a Labourer. The witness were Henry and Mary Ann Symons (I have looked on the census and the most likely candidates there are Simmons)
I think we can now be confident that in Tavistock there were two George Crossman’s who married an Elizabeth
George 1775-1840 a carpenter who married Elizabeth Ford and Robert Crossman born 1815 father George born 1779 died 1846 a Labourer who married Elizabeth (possibly Jago)
I can only find a baptism record for a George in 1806 son of George a carpenter mother is Elizabeth.
My questions are if anybody can help please
As George married at the Independent Chapel could he have been christened in a non-conformist church? I understand from the Devon Records Office Brook Street Independent records location is 2742 D/1,4,6,7,. Can anybody help?
From Georges burial record TE 340166 buried on 24 Feb 1858 aged therefore born 1804
(Perhaps we could also find the illusive Johns baptism there too!)
Could George be the son of George 1779 (the Labourer) and present at his fathers death in 1846 (therefore Roberts brother)?
His marriage was witnessed by Henry and Mary Ann Symons does anyone of their relationship to George or Mary Jane Carter?
Any help/ideas would be appreciated.
Regards
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One of the baptisms of George Crossman and William Crossman in 1806 which are in the IGI and in the Tavistock PRs is likely to have been attributed by clerical error to the wrong parents, George Crossman, carpenter, and Elizabeth Ford, and the other baptism likely should have been attributed to George Crossman, labourer, and Elizabeth Jago. This is because one baptism is in April 1806 and the next in June 1806.
The death certificate of George Crossman, the labourer, on 2 Jun 1846 at Lower Back St Tavistock shows the informant is George Crossman. George Crossman, the carpenter, died on 22 Jun 1840 at Two Bridges Tavistock and the informant was Philip Crossman.
George Crossman married Mary Oats on 20 Apr 1829 at Ilfracombe DEV per IGI Batch M051211. The Devon OPC for Ilfracombe says that the Ilfracombe PRs contain entry 343 on 20 April 1829 (Banns) George Crossman ( Bach) soj in this parish x his mark
Mary Oats (spin) of this parish Witts (Wm Richards) &(C Greenslade)
Baptism entries in Ilfracombe PRs of children of George, labourer, and Mary Crossman:
1239 Mary b 6 July 1829
1343 Phillip Oats b 26Dec 1830
1490 George b 16 Dec 1832
Hemmum has the certificate of the marriage of George Crossman, brickmaker, to Mary Jane Carter in 1848 at the Brook Street Independent Chapel in Tavistock which shows his father is George Crossman, labourer.
Regarding the baptism of William Crossman in 1806, there is an entry in the Stoke Damerel parish register records for the marriage of William Crossman, Carpenter, and Elizabeth Glass, Spinster, by Banns, on 10th November 1829. The witnesses were Elizabeth Harris and another person whose surname appears to be 'Nettle'. Unfortunately there is no indication of the name of William's father. It appears that William and Elizabeth had a son, George William, baptised on 13 Mar 1832 at Plymouth St Andrew. It would be good to confirm that this William Crossman is the son George Crossman, carpenter, and Elizabeth Ford, as it would support the possibility that George Crossman baptised in 1806 is the son of George Crossman, labourer, and Elizabeth Jago.
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Can you help resolve a clerical error made in 1806 when there were two couples named George and Elizabeth Crossman living in Tavistock Devon. One George was a carpenter and the other a labourer. In the Tavistock PRs there were two baptisms in 1806: on 19 Apr George Crossman and on 21 Jun William Crossman, both attributed to George the carpenter and his wife Elizabeth Ford. We have reason to believe that George baptised on 19 Apr is actually the son of George the labourer and his wife Elizabeth Jago but it would help to confirm that William is the son of George the carpenter.
In the 1851 census of Plymouth Charles the Martyr, there is William Crossman aged 45, a carpenter, b. Tavistock and on the next page his wife Grace aged 40 b. Tavistock. In the 1861 census Grace is widowed aged 57 (probably meaning 51) b. Morwellham. Their deaths are registered:
Deaths Sep 1856 William CROSSMAN Plymouth vol. 5b page 127
buried aged 46 on 20 Jul 1856 at Ford Park Cemetery, last residence Garden Street Plymouth.
Deaths Dec 1869 Grace CROSSMAN aged 59 Plymouth vol. 5b page 189
buried aged 60 on 3 Oct 1869 at Ford Park Cemetery, last residence Green St Plymouth.
An entry submitted to the IGI indicates the marriage of William Crossman and Grace might have been in 1831 but it has not been found in Tavistock PRs. Did they marry in Plymouth?
There is another William Crossman, also a carpenter, who married Elizabeth Glass (see below) who had a son George William baptised on 13 Mar 1832 at Plymouth St Andrew where he was buried 4 months of age on 1 Jul 1832. I have not found the family in any census so cannot be sure of the ages or places of birth or if they had other children.
Grateful if you have any additional records of these families.
From: Devon Record Office
Subject: RE: Stoke Damerel Marriage PRs 1829
The entry in the Stoke Damerel parish register records the marriage of William Crossman, Carpenter, and Elizabeth Glass, Spinster, by Banns, on 10th November 1829. I am afraid that I am unable to read the name of the Rector of the parish who performed the ceremony, but the register
was signed by both parties to the marriage. The witnesses were Elizabeth Harris and another person whose christian name I cannot read but whose surname appears to be 'Nettle'. I am unable to check the entry in the original register as it is held by the Plymouth and West Devon Record Office.
The reason for the appearance of two christian names for the bride on the IGI is that the bride's name was originally recorded in the register as 'Charlotte Glass', but this was crossed out and replaced with 'Elizabeth Glass'.
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Hello APHK (reply #49 of Monday 29 June 09 17:33)
Reference 4-3-4. Annie Maud KINSMAN (b. Q3 1878 Tiverton, Devon 5b/430), daughter of John Crocker Kinsman b 1843 and Annie Hutchings – do you know any more about her ?
I am trying to place my grandmother Annie Maud (born c 1876 surname POBJOY, RODEN or quite possibly neither of those names). My Annie Maud gave birth to my mother in the military hospital in Cawnpore, India, 22 Sep 1911. She was possibly not married to the reported father.
I know nothing about her before 1911. Searching BMD has given me no convincing birth candidates with Pobjoy or Roden names.
Annie Maud is a distinctive (but not very unusual) pairing, so I am interested in any one of about the right age with these names.
Can you (or any reader) please tell me what became of Annie Maud Kinsman ?
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Sorry, but I dont believe that your ancestors have any connection to the Kinsmans
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Dear CottonHistorian
We have since spoken.
My mother was Annie Patricia Dunne.
I have GRO duplicates of the birth certificate and of the certificate of the death of the reported father Sgt William A Dunne. Sgt Dunne apparently died in the same hospital in the previous month.
Both certificates were generated in October by the adjutant of the 1st (Royal) Dragoons, then stationed in Muttra about 180 miles away.
Thank you for your prompt interest.
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Hi There are good parish records (copies of originals on microfiche) for all the parishes around Tavistock at Tavistock Library... much more reliable than IGI - I don't know whether the library has a list of people who would do look-ups.
The Jago family originate in Calstock parish going back to the 1500s - I am a volunteer at Calstock archive currently researching families dating back to 1500s (through wills and land transactions to confirm relationships - Jago is one of the families I have been researching - but I haven't done the links from 1700s into 1800s yet (focusing on 1500s, 1600s and early 1700s at present)
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Thanks, I will investigate Tavistock Library. I have sent you a PM mentioning some contacts who may be helpful to you with your research as we cannot post email addresses here.
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Hi there i have an aunt Beaty Crossman (in her 80's) whos son Bill Crossman (in his 60's) lives with her in Horrabridge, i know some of my fathers family came from Tavistock but i have little info on my family and would love to find out more?? Can anyone help?? my fathers name is Anthony Dudley Crossman and his Father ... my grandad was Dudley ( Charles??) Crossman who married Joan Price and moved to Highley Nr Bridgnorth in Shropshire when my father was very young???
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These appear to be your Crossman ancestors:
Edwin Crossman was born in 1773 Buckland Monachorum DEV per 1861 census.
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Jun 1855 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 621 as Edwin Crossman and Caroline Holcombe
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Jun 1855 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 308 as William Philips Crossman (born in Sampford Spiney per 1911 census)
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Jun 1879 at Newton A. DEV vol 5b page 277 as William Phillips Crossman and Peggy Veale
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Sep 1884 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 379 as Edwin John R Crossman (born in Buckland Monachorum DEV per 1911 census when he was living with his parents and siblings at Station Hill, Horrabridge DEV))
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Dec 1912 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 847 as Edwin J R Crossman and May Trefry
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Jun 1913 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 619 as William J Crossman mother Trefry
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Dec 1914 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 588 as Leta M Crossman mother Trefry
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Sep 1916 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 554 as Dudley C Crossman mother Trefry
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Sep 1943 at Bridgnorth SAL vol 6a page 1579 as Dudley C Crossman and Margaret J Price
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Mar 1946 at Plymouth DEV vol 5b page 361 as Pamela Crossman mother Price
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Mar 1947 at Tavistock DEV vol 7a page 1110 as Peter C Crossman mother Price
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Mar 1949 at Bridgnorth SAL vol 9a page 138 as Anthony D Crossman mother Price
BIRTH: per Civil Regs registered Dec 1951 at Bridgnorth SAL vol 9a page 113 as Beverley L Crossman mother Price
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:) My word Nick!! that was the quickest amount of info i have ever recieved!! my father couldn't even tell me half of that! i am very greatfull thank you very much!! :)
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Hi again Nick,
Sorry if i may be sounding dumb? but where it says that Edwin John R Crossman was living at the same address with siblings and parents does that mean there were other children but they were not registered?? im sorry but i am new to all of this??
Kind regards Fay.
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Hi Fay
Welcome to the Crossman family! Nick has obviously been very helpful and generous giving information and time to help you on your way. I may be able to help further but please check this out for youself and I would appreciate any comments, something may be useful.
I do not think that Edwin Crossman was born ‘1773 Buckland Monachorum DEV per 1861 census’ (if so Edwin would have married Caroline in 1855 aged 82!) I think you may find that Edwin was;
Edwin Crossman baptised 1823 08 31 Buckland Monachorum (DFHS CD) f=William, sawyer & Elizabeth, from Horrabridge, Parish of Whitchurch
Luckily for you, Edwin is a very unusual name in the Crossman family and his 1823 baptism is the first Edwin I have listed.
It is interesting that you your aunt Beaty is still living in Horrabridge with her son Bill (short for William I assume - Williams have been the bain of my life!)
There are so many William Crossmans in the Tavistock area and I have found them very difficult to untangle but I think Edwins parents were probably;
William Crossman 1771-1851 Tavistock (as 1851 Census and burial records) who married 1808 03 19 Buckland Monachorum to Elizabeth Phillips 1786 (?) aka Betsy from Meeth Devon.
Elizabeth PHILLIPS was bapt 16 July 1786 d of William and Mary Phillips. William PHILLIPS married Mary GODFREY in 1783 as Meeth OPC
It is possible that William Crossman 1st married in 1792 to Grace WISE and had two children bapt Tavistock s=Thomas, November 1792 f=William sawyer m=Grace and
William 1795 Non conformist bapt Devon f=William m=Grace.
Grace Crossman was probably buried Princetown 28 Feb 1814 (aged 48 born abt 1766 therefore older than William but I have been unable to find her baptism)
William Crossman ?2nd marriage in 1808 to Elizabeth would have him aged 37
William Crossman also had a non conformist burial. William (Carpenter) Burial 1 Jul 1851 Sampford Spiney SS 10156 aged 81 (born 1770) living Huckworthy Bridge.
William could have been the son of John and Joan Crossman bapt Tavistock 1772 04 07 or
William son of William Crossman and Ann Rubby bapt Tavistock 1773 10 26.
Both are likely but William and Ann’s Crossman other children lived in the Horrabridge area their sons were Carpenters and some also non-conformist. You may even find that your Edwin was the cousin to William Smith Crossman born 22 Feb 1854 Horrabridge a stone mason who became the first Lord Mayor of Cardiff and was knighted 1907 by King Edward VII (a very interesting story!)
From the census Edwin was born 1824 Horrabridge, Caroline born 1822 Cullompton Devon
Like many of the Crossman Edwin was a Tin & Copper miner, many of the Crossmans were miners and emigrated worldwide, many are now in Australia
Edwin Crossman’s married 1844 to 1st wife was Maria Peny / Perry 1822 Maria died 1847 aged 25 Edwin CROPMAN married 1844 Jul-Sep vol 9 pg 525 Tavistock
From census children of Edwin and Maria
Betsey 1845 Sampford Spiney
Mary 1846 Walkhampton
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Jun 1855 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 621 as Edwin Crossman and Caroline Holcombe
Children of Edwin and Caroline
William Phillips 1856 Sampford Spiney
Edwin 1857 Sampford Spiney buried Buckland Monachorum 1873 08 06 aged 16 parents Edwin & Caroline living Horrabridge
Celia 1859 buried Sampford Spiney 1863 04 13 aged 4 living Horrabridge
Thomas 1861 Horrabridge / Sampford Spiney
Celia 1864 Horrabridge / Sampford Spiney
John 1867 Horrabridge / Sampford Spiney
William Phillips Crossman married in 1879 Newton Abbott Apr-Jun 5b page 277 to Peggy Veale 1854 St Justs Cornwall
(In 1881 William was a Tin and Copper miner, perhaps he had gone to Cornish mines to work and found his wife? The tradition of using the surnames of mothers and grand mothers to children as given middle names can be helpful in linking families.)
1911 census William Philips Crossman married 32 years 7 children born alive 5 still living, residing Station Road Horrabridge
Children of William and Peggy (from census)
1880 Maria Everil Crossman Horrabridge died 1978 North Cheam UK
1882 Kate Veale Crossman Buckland M
1884 Edwin John Rutley Crossman Horrabridge marr 1912 May Trefry born 1886 Mary Tavy
1885 John R Crossman Buckland M (no civil reg ? was he Edwin John Rutley)
1886 Eliza Margaret Crossman Buckland M
1892 Leta Ann Crossman Buckland M
MARRIAGE: Civil Regs, registered Dec 1912 at Tavistock DEV vol 5b page 847 as Edwin J R Crossman and May Trefry
Children of Edwin John Rutley Crossman and May Trefy
+Q4 1918 Tavistock Hilary Crossman m=Trefry
Regards
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Hi Fay
Happy New Year to you and to everyone else who has posted messages in this topic.
Hemmum is correct that Edwin Crossman was not born in 1773 and his baptism is found also at www.FindMyPast.co.uk which is quite a good source of baptisms in Devon:
Edwin Crossman chr 31 Aug 1823 at Buckland Monachorum s/o William Crossman, a sawyer, and Elizabeth of Horrabridge, Parish of Whitchuch DEV
His age 38 as recorded in the 1861 census was transcribed incorrectly in www.FindMyPast.co.uk so I have asked them to correct it.
1861 Census of dis 12d Buckland Monachorum 1 Tavistock DEV taken on 7 Apr 1861
Address: Coles Tenement Hay Town Sampford Spiney DEV
Edwin CROSSMAN head mar M age 38 copper miner b 1822/3 Buckland Monachorum DEV
Caroline CROSSMAN wife mar F age 31 b 1829/30 Culumton DEV
Betsey CROSSMAN dau unmar F age 16 work to woolen factory b 1844/5 Sampford Spiney DEV
Mary CROSSMAN dau unmar F age 15 work to woolen factory b 1845/6 Walkhampton DEV
William CROSSMAN son M age 5 scholar b 1855/6 Sampford Spiney DEV
Edwin CROSSMAN son M age 4 b 1856/7 Sampford Spiney DEV
Celia CROSSMAN dau F age 2 b 1858/9 Sampford Spiney DEV
Thomas CROSSMAN son M age 0 (6m) b 1860 Sampford Spiney DEV
1871 Census of dis 5 Buckland Monachorum Tavistock DEV taken on 2 Apr 1871
Address: Old Wheal Franco Cottage Buckland Monachorum DEV
Edwin CROSMAN head mar M age 47 miner b 1823/4 Buckland Monachorum DEV
Caroline CROSMAN wife mar F age 49 miners wife b 1821/2 Cullompton DEV
Edwin CROSMAN son M age 14 miners son b 1856/7 Sampford Spiney DEV
Thomas CROSMAN son M age 10 miners son scholar b 1860/1 Sampford Spiney DEV
Celia CROSMAN dau F age 7 scholar b 1863/4 Sampford Spiney DEV
John CROSMAN son M age 4 scholar b 1866/7 Buckland Monachorum DEV
1881 Census of Tavistock DEV taken on 3 Apr 1881
Address: Old Franco Cottage Buckland Monachorum DEV
Edwin CROSSMAN head mar M age 57 copper miner b 1823/4 Horrabridge DEV
Caroline CROSSMAN wife mar F age 59 copper miner wife b 1821/2 Collumpton DEV
Thomas CROSSMAN son unmar M age 20 copper miner b 1860/1 Horrabridge DEV
Celia CROSSMAN dau unmar F age 17 pupil teacher b 1863/4 Horrabridge DEV
John CROSSMAN son unmar M age 14 farm labourer b 1866/7 Horrabridge DEV
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Hi - this is my first Roots Chat post. I've read with interest the posts regarding George Crossman (born 1806 in Tavistock). George was my ggg grandfather. I am descended from his son Philip Oats Crossman (born c.1830 Ilfracombe).
From my own research I knew that George had married Mary Oates in Ilfracombe and sometime after her death in 1838 returned to Tavistock, presumably because he had family there. I've read on here that there was some confusion over George's parents, i.e. which George and Elizabeth Crossman were his parents. Has anybody reached a conclusion over George's parents? Perhaps somebody can enlighten me.
Thanks
Marc
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Hi Marc
I have George Crossman baptised 2 Mar 1781 at Tavistock s/o John Crossman and Joan Crossman and George Crossman married Elizabeth Jago on 21 Sep 1803 at Kelly whose third child was George Crossman baptised on 19 April 1806 at Tavistock who married Mary Oats on 20 April 1829 at Ilfracombe whose second child was Philip Oats Crossman baptised on 26 Dec 1830 at Ilfracombe.
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Hi Marc
Welcome to the Crossman family. I agree with Nick – we spent some time on this! But to summarise;
There were two George Crossman’s in Tavistock married an Elizabeth.
1. George 1775-1840 a carpenter who married Elizabeth Ford and
2. George 1779 -1846 a Labourer who married Elizabeth Jago.
George 1. died 22 Jun 1840 at12 noon in Tavistock occupation a Carpenter aged 65 Philip Crossman from Two Bridges Tavistock was in attendance.
George 2. died aged 66 on 2 Jun 1846 while living at Lower Back Str Tavistock, and was buried Dolvin Rd TE331335. A George Crossman was present at his death.
The informant of a death was usually a close family member.
Philip Crossman was also a carpenter (you can find him on the census) and was George 1. brother, they were both children of William Crossman and Ann Rubby.
(both carpenters a common occupation in this branch of the family)
George Crossman who reported George 2. (labourer) death I believe was his son.
Because A.
The marriage certificate for George Crossman’s second marriage 29 Oct 1848 at the Independent Chapel in the Tavistock Union to Mary Jane Carter. (His first marriage was to Mary Oats 1803-1836). His Fathers name is given as George Crossman a Labourer. The witnesses were Henry and Mary Ann Symons (I have looked on the census and the most likely candidates there are given as Simmons). George’s parents were both deceased by 1848. There may be further evidence in the relationship of the witnesses but I have not found it!
Because B.
George 2. married Elizabeth Jago.
George Crossman 2. was himself the son of John and Joan Crossman.
George and Elizabeth first two children were John and Joan (twins) then a son George 1806 their last son was Robert (I believe named after Elizabeth’s Jago’s father). This may be relevant as George Jnr 1806 also named a son Robert in 1850. The given name Robert is not used in other branches of the Crossman family but is a Jago name.
Because C.
George 1. and family were mainly craftsmen carpenters and Masons.
George 2. and family were Agri Labs and later miners. George 1806 and later were Labourers but not Craftsmen.
George Jnr was living in Barleymarket St when buried 24 Feb 1858 in Dolvin Road Cemetary TE 340166 aged 54 G+E (born 1806?)
In 1866 aged 52 his second wife Mary Jane CROSSMAN nee Carter marries John ANGEL in Tavistock
The above is how I see the situation but obviously you must decide for yourself. I do have some notes on Phillip Oats Crossman and would be very interested in your research to confirm if I am correct.
Regards
Ros
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Thanks Nick and Ros. You've both been very helpful. It's really good to take my Crossman ancestors back further. I can see a lot of research has been done, so I am very grateful to you both.
Ros, the point you make about the occupations is very interesting - I've just looked at Philip's marriage certificate from 1852 and his father's occupation is labourer, so as you say they were not craftsmen.
Hopefully I can help you out with Philip Oats Crossman, just let me know. He was my grandfather's grandfather but died twenty years before he was born.
Kind regards
Marc
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Hi everyone.
Another Rootschat newby here. Am another Tavistock Crossman descendant. My gran was Joan Crossman, her dad was Thomas, his dad was John with his dad being the Edwin Crossman who married Caroline Holcombe. Edwin's parents being Elizabeth Phillips and William Crossman.
Pleased to make your acquaintance. I live relatively close to Whitchurch/buckland monochorum and tavistock, in Plympton.
Have read the thread with interest and gotten some pointers about my own ancestors.
Thanks all!
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You may be interested to know that two distant male Crossman cousins took Y-DNA37 tests last year and the year before at FamilyTreeDNA and the results of the tests matched closely validating the family tree back to Robert Crossman baptised on 20 Dec 1815 in Tavistock. This Robert is the most recent common ancestor of Peter Crossman and John Crossman who took the tests. Any male Crossmans wishing to be tested should order a Y-DNA37 test here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Cross
The test is offered at a reduced fee from time to time.
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The last Crossman of my family died last year at 93. Lots of descendants but none with the Crossman name anymore.