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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: coombs on Wednesday 31 December 08 12:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi
My 5xgreat grandfather was Richard Titshall who died in June 1811 aged 47 (born 1763-1764). He had married Sarah Fairweather in 1785 in Brandeston, Suffolk and one of the witnesses was William Titshall. In Richard's will, he named William as his brother. William lived until 1844 aged 84 so born around 1760. The family were corn millers.
At the Suffolk Records Office I found a settlement certificate for 1768 stating Richard and Judith Titshall, a miller, and their sons William and Richard had legally become settled in the parish of Laxfield. They were also subject to another settlement cert in 1769 when they moved to Dennington. Judith died there in 1782. Richard Snr was also a corn miller.
I found William's baptism in May 1760 in Laxfield. Son of Richard and Judith Titshall. Trouble is I cannot locate Richard Jnrs 1763/4 baptism anywhere. Laxfield, Framlingham, Dennington and I have tried many, many surrounding villages and have been unable to locat a baptism in around 1764 for him. I have evidence of the family moving around as in 1748 Richard and Judith wed in Bury St Edmunds. I even tried there and their home parishes of Barham and Bardwell for Richard Jnrs baptism but nothing.
They were in Laxfield in 1760, Framlingham in 1768, Laxfield in 1769 and from 1769 onwards in Dennington until 1784ish when they ended up in Hacheston.
Someone at the Suffolk Records Office Lowestoft branch suggested that Richard born in 1764 may have been christened in a local workhouse. If I have evidence of settlement certificates then this is a possibility. They may have fallen on hard times and were in the workhouse at the time of Richards birth or Judith had a tough pregnancy and gave birth inside the workhouse. I have proof of Richards parentage and such but myself and a few cousins who are also descendants would love to locate his baptism.
Ben
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Hi Ben,
I'm interested in your milling connections. I have several Titshall recorded in my Mills database, all of them either called Richard or William. In all case they are millers.
My records are as follows:-
Dennington 1753 Richard Miller at Saunder's Mill?
Alderton 1791 William Marriage License
Redlingfield 1798 Richard Ipswich Journal
Framlingham 1802 Richard Removal Order
Marlesford 1830 William Ipswich Journal
Hacheston 1830 Richard Ipswich Journal
Parham 1864 Richard Directory
Most of these I have dates and ref. numbers for. Would they be of use to you?
I would be interested in any mill/miller related connection you might have. With so many Richards/Williams about it is hard to clear who is who!
Cheers,
Windy Miller
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Could the family have been Wesleyan Methodists at one time?
Perhaps he was baptised on the Framlingham and Peasenhall Circuit?
Just a thought :)
Pat ...
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Hi Windy Miller
Could you give me more info on the 1753 Dennington one please? This is the most interesting. They lived in Dennington in the 1770s as well.
Suffolkmawther what was the Framlingham and Peasenhall Circuit.
Ben
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Wesleyan Methodist
Pat ...
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Ben,
Will have to get back to you on that particular entry as it comes from mill site owners documents and I'll need to arrange a visit there. I'm away for a few weeks (Oz) but will get back to you when I return.
Could the name have changed as I have a few Titsell's (Fitshall, etc) listed too.....?
Hacheston 1790 Richard Fitshall Ipswich Journal
Alderton 1790 William Fitshall Ipswich Journal
Hacheston 1830 Richard Titsell Pigot's Directory
You may want to check for similar elsewhere.
Windy miller
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Ben, do you have a copy of the wonderful Titshall brothers book, In a Long Day, the Titshall photographs of farm and village life that Dave Kindred produced a few years ago?
Ralph and his brother Leonard lived in Ipswich at 436 Spring Road (the house having been built by one of the older brothers in the family).
Their family had been millers.
They were photographers and for some reason (for which local and family historians will be forever grateful) they took lots of photographs (well several hundred glass plate negs) of ordinary everyday life in Suffolk in the 1920s and 30s.
I have a feeling I asked once before if you had the book, but can't remember an answer.
If you have got it - sorry for the rambling ::)
Pat ...
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Hi Pat and Windy
Thanks for the new Titshall info. It is good to look at spelling variants.
I have that book by Ralph and Leonard Titshall yes.
Richard Titshall wed Judith Scarfe in 1748 in Bury St Edmunds, so 5 years later in 1753 he was in Dennington then? I know that he was in Laxfield in 1760, so they must have moved to East Suffolk in about 1750 then.
Ben
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Hi
I am going to the Suffolk Records Office today.
Windy I have taken notes of your finds and will see if I can find anything more out about the Titshall Miller references.
Richard Titshall wed Judith Scarfe in 1748 in Bury St Edmunds. They appeared to have had their first child in 1760 though. In 1768 they were the subject of a settlement order, which was found by my uncle on a visit to Ipswich RO 3 years ago. December 1768 and it said Richard, Judith and their children William and Richard.
It seems odd that they wed in 1748 but didnt have their first child until 1760. 11 years of no passion ;D. I never knew until Windy discovered for me that the Titshalls were in Dennington in 1753. This narrows down when they moved from West to East Suffolk then. Wow. My cousins will be well pleased as they are avid Titshall researchers.
I will look through the PRs for Dennington to see if there are any Titshall baptisms 1750-1759 there. They may have had children before 1760 that died, or went to sea, or she may have had a string of miscarriages or stillbirths.
It would be great to find Richard Titshall's 1763/1764 baptism. I shall follow the Framlingham & Peasenhall circuit reference.
Ben
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Hi Ben
This last weekend, I've been re-reading all the posts for your Titshalls from the past year or so; as you may remember I am interested in Maria Titsall mother of William Gooch Titsall ( I see though you have removed 'Gooch' from your surname interests) anyhow yesterday I was looking again at my family sheets after re-reading your enquiry below for the bp of Richard - I don't know if you've noticed on the IGI the following:
Rose Titsel - dau of Richd. Titsel/Juda
08-09-1850
Gt Ellingham, Norfolk
could this be a first child of theirs - as you mentioned there was quite a gap from the time of marriage to the first bp of William in 1760.
I noticed when I 'sorted all the data from the IGI that the Norfolk spellings were particularly 'different' to the later Suffolk ones a hundred years on but to have 'Judith' as a mother - well, it appears there's only the one! Also the transcription may have been from a 'smudged' original and a 'wild guess' taken at the spelling.
As my post tonight is 18months after your last one; you may have already solved the mystery of where Richard was born or baptised. I had a difficult time with a bp on one of my other families and finally found it on the same day as the last baby born to the family and the person was nearly 14 at the time~I guess with all the moving around etc your family had to be settled before a bp could take place.
regards Karen
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Hi Karrienz
Wow. Thanks for that 1750 baptism. Great Ellingham, Norfolk. Gosh. I am sure that is a baptism of a child to my Richard and Judith. Richard's mother was Rose Titshall nee Sharrock so that also helps. Titsel is not that different from Titshall.
That would certainly explain why there seemed to be a birth gap between their 1748 marriage and the first child born in 1760. I still have not yet found the baptism of Richard Titshall born in 1764 though. But with this new baptism of an elder child we could be getting closer. I did have a small suspicion he may have been baptised outside Suffolk and that could well be the case. He may have been born in Norfolk. They did appear to move around a lot around Suffolk so they may have lived in Norfolk for a while. Maybe one of them was of Norfolk descent.
Ben
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Hi Ben
Gt Ellingham and several other parish Norfolk parish registers are here, but not indexed, so you can browse the images.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1201592336948#r=-1&p=allCollections
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Hi Sue
The original says Titsel. I have downloaded the document. I need to contact some relatives who are also researching as they are also wondering why the 11 year gap but I lost their email address.
Ben
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Hi Ben
I'm so glad you were able to tie in that bp of Rose Titsel to your family - as I've mentioned before in my earlier posts this year, I took all the Titshall names/variants off the IGI and matched up families for them and this one was a 'wildcard' in Norfolk and out of place date wise as well as the IGI only appears to have very early Norfolk names.
regards Karen
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Hi Ben
just out of interest I wonder if you've got a marriage or any children connected to William Titshall brother to Richard that you are looking for the baptism of? I'm sitting here with my family sheets and staring at a blank page - it's just that as all my Titshall info originally came off the IGI there didn't appear to be anything directly matched to him.
I have Hannah, Elizabeth, Mary all as children of Richard and Sarah Fairweather.
I have a note on their sheet from the archived boards at Rootsweb of a lady, Allison, who had John, Elizabeth, Mary and Samuel (John & Samuel not on the IGI) but appeared to be included in her family bible. .
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SUFFOLK/2002
17/02/2002
or you can google Titshall Allison 2002 and it takes you to the archives
as this is 8 years ago you may have already been in contact with Allison by now - as she appears to be researching Richard and Sarah Fairweather families I thought it might interest you
regards Karen
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Hi Karrienz
I am not sure if William had any children. It would be good to find what happened to his older sister Rose born 1750.
Amazing that they lived in Norfolk for a short while. Richard and Judith did get around. This may explain why it is hard to find Richard Jns baptism in about 1764.
Ben
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So Richard and Judith Titshall's residence is as follows:-
1748 Sapiston, Suffolk.
1748 Marriage at Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk.
1750 Great Ellingham, Norfolk
1753 Dennington, Suffolk
1760 Laxfield, Suffolk
1767 Framlingham, Suffolk
1768 Laxfield
1769 Dennington.
1782 Dennington. Judith dies in Dennington in 1782.
1785 Richard remarries in Hacheston to Ann Hunt.
1798 Redlingfield, Suffolk
1802 Framlingham, Suffolk
1807 Framlingham, Suffolk. Richard dies that year after a eventful life.
Richard did get around the county, and moved around with both wives. And to be living in Norfolk for a while is good. Great Ellingham is also quite a way into the county, about 15 miles from the Suffolk border.
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Theres this burial
Rose Titshall
21st May, 1774
Barnham, Suffolk
age not known.
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Hi Sue
That could well be Richard's mother Rose who married Thomas Titshall in 1723. Maiden name of Shurrock or Thurrock.
Ben
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Windy, Does your mills data base apply only to East Anglia? I ask because I have some Luffman relatives who were millers in Somerset and I think Dorset during the 18th and 19th centuries. Hope you can either help or point me in the right direction.Thanks, Roger
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I shall be telling my relative who is just as interested in Richard and Judith's movements as I am. The worst case scenario is Richard born 1764 was not baptised but I shall only think that when I run out of options.
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I saw those relatives today and they had a Rose Titshall who wed in 1768 in Laxfield to Christopher Foreman but they didn't know how she fitted in. Now we know as thanks to Karrienz a baptism of a Rose Titshall was found in 1750 in Norfolk and Richard and Judith were in Laxfield in 1768.
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From NBI
Rose Foreman
16th April, 1824
age 74yrs
Laxfield
Christopher Foreman
30th March, 1829
age 86yrs
Laxfield
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Hi Sue
Thanks very much. 74 in 1824 so born about 1750 so that ties in.
Ben
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Hi Ben,
Sadly I haven't got anything to offer regarding your family but I am very interested in the fact you mentioned settlement certificates. I hit a wall a few years ago regarding the birth of one of my ancestors ( he married 1771 in Elmsett, Suffolk but I've not been able to find his birth there) the Suffolk Records Office at Bury St Eds suggested he may be mentioned in the poor law records as being accepted into the village. Being a relative amateur looking through these records sounded rather daunting to me, hence I haven't done anything about this. I was just wondering if you could tell me if its a hard task searching these settlement certificates please? Are they indexed? Easy to read? etc
Many Thanks Joanne
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Was just browsing through a few threads and then went :o
I live in Gt Ellingham ;D
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Hi Joanne
There are some that are indexed at the National Archives website but not all have survived.
Rose Titshall born 1750, Great, Ellingham, Norfolk.
William Titshall, born 1760, Laxfield, Suffolk
Richard Titshall born about 1764, Unknown Suffolk.
The 3 confirmed children of Richard and Judith. The settlement records confirm Richard as a son and his burial in 1811 says he was 47. When he wed in 1785 William Titshall was a witness and he is mentioned in Richard's will.
Ben
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Hi All and particularly Ben;
This is becoming most interesting this thread about Rose bn 1750, dau of Richard and Judith - however, I wonder if you've seen the marriage of Rose Titshall in Jan 1759, Barnham to Charles Dykes amongst your searches - I was wondering if she was either the widow of Thomas (brl 1739 Barnham) or could be a dau bn about 1723+- (a sister to Richard (m Judith). I'm wondering if they also had a son, Thomas??? bn 1725+-). Not sure how this fits with things leading up to a burial in May 1774 of Rose Titsall in Barnham - did women revert to their unmarried name sometimes after they were widowed?
Could also Bridget Titsall (bn 1721 +-) married to Henry Chapman in Euston, Suffolk 1745 be a sister to Thomas and Rose's son, Richard (m Judith). (Euston being 'up the road and round the corner' from Barnham)
Also rather interesting that Rose, dau of Rich/Judith isn't mentioned in the settlement certificates (or any other children for that matter) - so I thought maybe she'd been left with relatives in Laxfield (and later married Christopher Foreman). With only marriages to go by it's rather difficult isn't it.
off to work now....Wednesday morning ;D
Karen
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Hi karrienz
They married in October 1768 and the settlement examinatiuon was December that year so she had just got married.
Ben
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Hi Ben; I came across this on the weekend looking up Titshalls again; I'm puzzled because in earlier posts you have said that Richard Titshall married to Anna Maria (Hunt) died in Framlington in 1807:
National Archives UK: Settlement Certificate
Richard Titshall, miller, and Anna Maria, his wife, Framlington to Redlingfield, 28 July 1822
Could it have been another Richard who died in 1807? or is this another Richard married to a different Anna Maria?
Karen
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Hi Ben; I came across this on the weekend looking up Titshalls again; I'm puzzled because in earlier posts you have said that Richard Titshall married to Anna Maria (Hunt) died in Framlington in 1807:
National Archives UK: Settlement Certificate
Richard Titshall, miller, and Anna Maria, his wife, Framlington to Redlingfield, 28 July 1822
Could it have been another Richard who died in 1807? or is this another Richard married to a different Anna Maria?
Karen
Hi Karen. It was 1802 not 1822 as I have the original records. I think that was a typing error on their part.
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Oh great - I'm so pleased as it was starting to 'do my head in' ??? I'm actually looking up some of the Suffolk/Norfolk Titsell/Titsall families in the archives...makes interesting reading anyway and when I saw this one I thought surely not another Richard!
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Hi
Yes those Titshall's certainly did get around. Rose Titshall who wed in 1768 was the one who was born in 1750 in Norfolk. She wed just before the family became part of a settlement examination so she had just left home.
My great grandfather Richard Titshall moved from the sleepy village of Letheringham in Suffolk to the market town of Rochford in Essex in about 1905.
Ben
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William Titshall born 1761 wed in 1786 in Shottisham to Elizabeth Broom. One of the witnesses was a Richard Titshall. Probably the brother born 1764 or the father born 1728.
And a William Titshall wed in 1750 in Hasketon to a Sarah. They had a daughter Sarah in 1750. It appears they moved to Homersfield in Suffolk near the Norfolk border and had a son William baptised in 1773 but born 1764. I have been unable to tie William Snr in with my Richard born 1728. I dont think Richard had a brother William baptised at Barnham. He had a brother John baptised 1726.
I am still no closer to finding the baptism of Richard Titshall born 1763-1764. But the parents did move around a lot so it may turn up eventually.
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Hi Ben; it's been a while - looking at the info I've collected and tweaked recently for the Titshall family - had a thought that it's interesting that Thomas Titsall and Rose (Thurrock/Sharrock) don't appear to have a son Thomas bn 1721+ and also wondered if you had considered in your search for the elusive baptism of Richard, son of Richard Titshall and Judith Scarfe if they had ever had a son Thomas? Could Richard bn C1764 have actually been Thomas Richard Titshall? I know middle names weren't that common for that period but occasionally they crop up.
Anyway just keeping in touch.
regards Karen
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Hi Karen
That is an idea.
All I know currently is Richard and Judy Titshall had 3 known children, Rose born 1750, William born 1760 and Richard born 1764. The baptisms of the two elder ones have been found. But yes he could have been born Thomas Richard Titshall or even Thomas Titshall and later known as or renamed Richard.
If I have evidence of them moving around Richard born 1764 may have been baptised outside Suffolk, if his sister was born in Norfolk in 1750 yet the parents did originate from Suffolk.
I wonder if they ever had other children who died in infancy or moved away and wed elsewhere?
Ben
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Hi Ben - you are up late! I'm in New Zealand it's 9.30 am. I've been nutting out the early Titsall/Titshalls. I've a spreadsheet now of all Norfolk/Suffolk and London and msc bp's burials and marriages gathered from all sources. I've added all the info you've supplied as well. There are of course gaps in the decades and many name variations. However, as mentioned above, Thomas is rare in Suffolk/Norfolk so is John and common is Richard and William.
You've mentioned that Thomas (sp of Rose Sharrock) his father is Thomas (1665-1735) sp Bridget; so I'm now thinking that their son John bp 1726 Barnham - (have you found anything about him)- he is older than Richard bp 1728 (sp Judith Scarfe) - John could have had a son Thomas.
There was a bp of a Thomas Tetsall in 1731 Sudbury - Joseph and Mary - Sudbury district includes Barnham - I've found nothing else for them but wondered Thomas Titsall bp 1693 could be a relation.
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did women revert to their unmarried name sometimes after they were widowed?
Karen
Hi Karen
In my lot, all bar one of the many widows marrying into my lines reverted back to their maiden names when remarrying, for that particular lady the church marriage register entry named her Jane Hayward, her first husband being John Howard, but the banns gave her maiden name as Jane Anthony.
In the burial records for widows my experience to date is that they retained their married names.
Regards
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Oh yes, that was awhile ago that query; still relevant at the moment - so many widows remarrying and never quite sure which it is. Thanks for that. I think we finally agreed that Rose Titsell was the mother buried in 1774. I have a particular instance with a man remarrying and the marriage register stating 'bachelor' - maybe an error or personal reasons at the time; it was a bit of a surprise though to discover the previous marriage. The first wife did die young though.
This Titsall/Titshall query about this missing bp will go on for awhile though... ;D I'm nutting out the naming patterns for the families...some are consistant and other's go off on a tangent....there's got to have been a baby Thomas somewhere! How important, I don't know but a bit of a mystery.
thanks for your interest
regards Karen