RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Paul41 on Sunday 21 December 08 16:32 GMT (UK)

Title: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 21 December 08 16:32 GMT (UK)
Hello,dont know where to start here as i seem to have been coming up against various brick walls in my pursuit of my family tree on my fathers side.Unfortuneately i was very young when he died in 1972 and for whatever reason my mother is less than forthcoming with information which could help me
My fathers name was Vincent Kelly born 22/4/1926 in Lanchester and married  in 1950 in the Northern district-all i know from there on in is that there are 3 children from this marriage which finished at some point in 1964/65-my dad then married my mum and he died a relatively young age on 27/3/72 and was i believe the first Roman Catholic to be cremated at the newly opened Mountsett Crematorium in Dipton Stanley Co. Durham.I know his father and mother called John Kelly and Bridget Shannon were married in March 1914 in Lanchester but i have been unable to trace anything on my grandfathers side.I have had more luck on my grandmothers side of the family who ive traced back as far as 1851 on the census records available -she appears on the 1891 census as the daughter of Thomas Shannon aged 2 residing at 44 Bottlebankin Blackhill Consett-my great great grandfather appears on these records as a widow aged about 60 and i have traced him back to 1881 census living at 21 Bottlebank and thenfurther back to the 1851 census when he appeared as a lodger at 86 Love Street in the district of St Giles Durham.If anyone could shed any light on this large empty side of knowledge on my fathers side i would be eternally grateful-i have tried to look for records of these 3 half brothers or sisters that i have but to no avail at present with no mention of them in the book of rememberanceat Mountsett Crematorium-i would also like to trace the graves of the Shannon side of my family who i believe to have died in the Blackhill area-i believe there are 16 Shannons buried at Blackhill cemetary-but where and do they have headstones? which may give me more details-all i know is that my grandmother Bridget is buried at St Patricks church in Dipton -died 5/3/71 aged 82 (her family home was at 22 Ewehurst parade which is no longer there)and my dad has an inscription on her gravestone-anyway ive rambled on a little too much but if there is anyone out there who can point me in the right direction or who may even know something/or feels they could be anyway related to me  then please feel free to get in touch-any help whatsoever whether it be great or small would be greatly appreciated-Many thanks Paul

Moderator comment:  Amended to remove names of possible living people.
Title: Re: BEGINNERS HELP REQUIRED TRACING KELLY FAMILY
Post by: Tati on Sunday 21 December 08 16:42 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat Paul  :)

Do you have the marriage certificate for John Kelly and Bridget Shannon?

I can see a John Kelly on the 1901 census for Lanchester (age 7, born Consett, son of James and Eleanor) but we'd really need to know his age and his father's name to tell if he's a likely candidate :-\
Title: Re: BEGINNERS HELP REQUIRED TRACING KELLY FAMILY
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 21 December 08 16:46 GMT (UK)
Hi Paul  :)

Welcome from me too!

As Tati says the marriage cert would tell you his age and father's name:

Mar q, 1914, Lanchester, vol 10a page 513.

Added -  If you've not got it, you can order online here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/



Gadget
Title: Re: BEGINNERS HELP REQUIRED TRACING KELLY FAMILY
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 21 December 08 17:17 GMT (UK)
thanks for prompt replies Tati the John Kelly you mention would be too young i presume as he would only be 14 when getting married-from what i can gather i believe he was originally from the Lanchester area but this is where it breaks down for me as i do not have any of this info-when my mum married my dad in 1966 John -my grandfather was already dead-with my dad not being born till 1926 this is where i come unstuck in census records- Moderator Comment: Names of possible living people removed
-Gadget i have been told the marriage certificate route is the one i should take from my dads first marriage in 1950  but so far when looking thru records ive drawn a blank-as previously mentioned i have 3 half brothers/sisters thru this marriage who with a bit of luck should still be alive and maybe in their early 60s or late 50s-very frustrating for me but i suppose patience is the keyword in all of this :)
Title: Re: BEGINNERS HELP REQUIRED TRACING KELLY FAMILY
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 21 December 08 17:27 GMT (UK)
Hi again Paul  :)

I don't think he would have been able to marry at the age of 14*:

Quote
In 1763, the minimum age of marriage was fixed at 16. Prior to this date, the church accepted the marriage of girls aged 12 or more and boys aged 14 or more. In addition, a dispensation on licence could be obtained from a bishop which allowed marriage at a younger age. From 1763 a person below the age of 21 required the consent of parents to be married in England.

http://www.parishregister.co.uk/history.htm

I think getting the 1914 marriage certificate would  give you the information that you need to go backwards. However, although it would be more expensive, if you are unclear, it would be worth getting both your father's marriage certs and his birth cert.

We have to be careful about mentioning people who may still be alive, so it isn't possible for us to help with your half siblings.

Regards


Gadget


* Added - unless he gave the wrong information about his age to the registrar/minister/priest

Ps - I mis-read your post - thought you said that yours married at 14 :o
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Tati on Sunday 21 December 08 17:41 GMT (UK)
Quote
John Kelly and Bridget Shannon were married in March 1914

Wouldn't he have been ca. 21 if he was 7 in 1901?  ???
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 21 December 08 17:47 GMT (UK)
correct Tati i misread it at 1907-sorry about that-again excuse my ignorance regarding existing siblings Gadget as im fairly new to all this-will try and work back from there and see where it takes me
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: suzard on Sunday 21 December 08 20:04 GMT (UK)
Don't know if this may be of any assistance to you -it seems Winifred had a middle name

Moderator Comment:  Details of possible living person removed in accordance with rootschat policy.  Please use the pm system to exchange sensitive data.

Suz
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 21 December 08 21:04 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Suzard-not sure whether the spelling was correct as original trace of the siblings had a spelling of Winfred and not Winifred -because of the unusual spelling (or at least thats what i thought!!) i had been looking for a male-could you please tell me where i would access this sort of info as this was given to me originally by a third party when setting out on my search
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: suzard on Sunday 21 December 08 22:41 GMT (UK)
I'll just check spelling again

Suz
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: suzard on Sunday 21 December 08 22:47 GMT (UK)
it is Winifred R

from Complete BMD index

available on A****try

it used to be free but now you can only access it via a subscription -or free at (most) libraries

Suz
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Tati on Monday 22 December 08 07:40 GMT (UK)
FreeBMD also has the original images for births up to 1935  :)

http://images.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/choose.pl

Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 22 December 08 14:58 GMT (UK)
thanks-could someone point me in the right direction in relation to the burial records for Blackhill cemetary in order that i can trace the graves of i believe upto 16 Shannons that are buried there-ie plots and positions if any in cemetary-i have just returned from a quick visit to the South cemetary where i was unable to find any gravestones with the name Shannon on them-im now presuming that they are buried in the North Cemetary but such is the size of the cemetary i could do with some guidance as to where to narrow the search down-thanks in anticipation Paul
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: JenB on Monday 22 December 08 15:27 GMT (UK)
Paul

I think you will find that there are very many burials without headstones. So the fact that you couldn't find anything in the South Cemetery doesn't necessarily mean they aren't buried there.

I suggest you email the Cemeteries Service of Derwentside Council using this link http://www.derwentside.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=5422&contactid=5417
but I think they will want to have some dates to guide any search they may be able to make.

Jennifer
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Monday 22 December 08 15:58 GMT (UK)
Paul,

I have a transcript of your ancestor Patrick Shannon's marriage to Margaret Urwin in 1851 at Brooms Catholic Chapel plus both of their burial records at Blackhill. If you don't have this information let me know.

J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 22 December 08 17:04 GMT (UK)
Jen B -thankyou for  the link which i will look up-after seeing this i went to the council offices in Medomsley Road Consett and managed to speak to someone on the phone down at the Morrison Busty depot who supplied me with burial details in relation to my great grandfather Thomas Shannon and also my great grandmother Elizabeth-both are buried in plot no 381 in section 16-and there is no headstone!!! so i have saved myself a lot of unnecessary looking there-any idea why there would not be a headstone though?-would it be just down to cost as there is a 15 year gap between their deaths and yet no headstone exists-yet buried in same plot
J.T.A.-This information would be invaluable to me as on checking the deaths of Shannons /graves etc there was mention of 3 Patrick Shannons but none seemed to match up age wise-i would be most grateful for this information and cannot thankyou both enough for your help in these matters
Paul
ps JTA -Would this marriage have taken place in Brooms chapel in Leadgate or is it from a chapel further afield?
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: JenB on Monday 22 December 08 17:11 GMT (UK)
any idea why there would not be a headstone though?-would it be just down to cost

I would imagine would be largely due to cost. I suppose also it is possible that many families could only afford a wooden memorial which would soon decay. I have many family members buried at Blackhill and few of them have headstones.

I think it was fairly common for people not to have a headstone - when you think of the average country churchyard and how many thousands of people must be buried there - and then compare that with the number of headstones there - relatively few.....
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Monday 22 December 08 17:45 GMT (UK)
Paul,

If you were to visit the Durham County Record Office you should have a field day as that is where the St Mary's, Blackhill registers are deposited. These records only commence 1857 and prior to that the Catholics of Blackhill/Consett were served from Brooms, Nr Leadgate which is why your direct ancestors married there as follows:

24th November 1851
Patrick Shannon of Berry Edge son of Owen and Bridget Shannon of Co Monaghan
to
Margaret Urwin of Blackhill daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Urwin of Blackhill
witnessed by: Hugh Finigan and Mary Burns both of Berry Edge.

I'll send you the burial details later: Margaret died in 1873 but Patrick survived up to 1910. Don't be too concerned about ages which can be up to 20 years out.

Good luck,
J.T.A.

Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 22 December 08 17:48 GMT (UK)
many many thanks J.T.A.-Much appreciated
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Monday 22 December 08 19:07 GMT (UK)
Paul,

The first burial entry at Blackhill Cemetery was 25th May 1862 and prior to that Catholics within this catchment area would normally be buried at the Brooms Churchyard.

The following appear to relate to your family:

Ann Shannon daughter of Patrick Shannon aged 2 of 96, Blackhill buried 11th August 1862. Section Aa No 578.
Hannah Shannon daughter of Patrick Shannon aged 10 months of 46, Bottle Bank buried 29th January 1873 Section Ab No 165.
Margaret Shannon wife of Patrick Shannon aged 43 of 46, Bottle Bank buried 5th November 1873 Section A No 6.
Patrick Shannon Labourer aged 72 of 47, Bottle Bank buried 8th March 1910 Section 17 No 566.
Mary Elizabeth Shannon daughter of Thomas Shannon aged 14 months of 45, Kings Street, Consett buried 11th March 1912 Section 17a 543.

To progress with your Kelly line you need to know the name of John Kelly's father.

Good luck,
J.T.A.

Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 22 December 08 20:15 GMT (UK)
all i know in relation to my grandfather in the Kelly line is that he married my grandmother Bridget in Mar 1/4 1914 in Lanchester and he had died before i came into the world in1967-this is where i hit a brick wall in relation to this side of the family unfortuneately as there is so little knowledge of them-perhaps a visit to one of the roman catholic graveyards in the area may throw up some clues or getting hold of the marriage certificates from both my dads first marriage in 1950 or my grandfathers in 1914 would open a few doors  :-\ many thanks for your efforts on my behalf all the same-much appreciated Paul
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: JenB on Monday 22 December 08 20:22 GMT (UK)
Paul,

as Gadget and Tati  said yesterday, if you wish to make progress with this line of your family you are going to have to purchase that 1914 marriage certificate. This should provide the names of both your great-grandfathers'.
There doesn't really seem to be a shortcut.

Jennifer
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 22 December 08 20:27 GMT (UK)
cheers Jen-indeed you are all correct-search has gathered quite a pace and the advice whilst noted had temporarily been forgotten by myself due to everything ive been trying to take in-will get onto this tomorrow-cheers Paul
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Wednesday 24 December 08 09:49 GMT (UK)
planning on trying to locate great grandfathers grave this morning at blackhill cemetary-plot 381 sec 16-printed map of cemetary layout-any clues as to how they are numbered
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 24 December 08 09:59 GMT (UK)
Paul, here is a link to the plans http://www.rootschat.com/links/0559/ which show the sections. But as to the plots and how to locate them, you had best enquire at Cemetery Services at the Council or at Morrison Busty Depot via the link I gave you the other day.

Jennifer

PS my late uncle was Chaplain at the Morrison Busty Pit in the late 1960's  :)
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Wednesday 24 December 08 10:46 GMT (UK)
cheers Jen-got a plan of the sections for the cemetery and as said in an earlier post when going to the council offices in Medomsley Road they put me in touch with a guy down at Morrison Busty depots who was extremely helpful in giving me a tremendous amount of info which
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Thursday 25 December 08 23:32 GMT (UK)
Paul,

This burial at Blackhill might be of interest to you as the address is the same as where your Shannon ancestors were living in 1891.

Owen Kelly Labourer aged 65 of 44, Bottle Bank buried 26th March 1905 Section G No 410.

Owen could have been John Kelly's grandfather, as far as can see he had at least one son named Francis Kelly and possibly another named Peter.

J.T.A.

Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Friday 26 December 08 10:50 GMT (UK)
Again JTA  your information could well be invaluable-im in the process of getting the marriage certificate for my grandfather John who married my grandmother Bridget- Mar 1/4 1914 but it has been in the back of my mind that perhaps one of the Kellys thru my dads line could have been residing in and around this area as from what i can gather Bottlebank was a predominantly catholic area with Blackhill being known as little Belfast-from other census records i can see the Shannons in various houses in Bottlebank and then Derwent Street so it appears that they may have quite frequently moved within the stree as it were-maybe 2-3 times in a 10year period-all i know of Bottlebank which has long since gone now is that it was a really squalid area-a midden in fact and living conditions were very harsh to say the least-the lack of gravestones for the Shannons in my family has me thinking they must have lived a very harsh almost hand to mouth existence with very little spare cash flying around -much the same as many Irish families of the times i suppose.Once again thankyou for these golden nuggets that you keep unearthing on my behalf-they are very much appreciated as your efforts have helped me no end - i cant thank you enough kind sir-Many many thanks Paul
ps could i please ask if Blackhill was part of the Lanchester parish in those days as my efforts in looking in and around Lanchester itself for members of Kelly family has so far proved fruitless-certainly the Kelly side of my family has proved much much harder to track down than the Shannons
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Friday 26 December 08 20:29 GMT (UK)
Paul,

Blackhill was in the Registration District of Lanchester and I think that is the reason why many born in North West Durham simply entered their place of birth as Lanchester which in the case of your Shannon family was incorrect seeing the first four children were not even born in the Lanchester District. According to the 1861 census when the family are to be found at Tow Law, the first two children Edward and Isabel were born at Wallsend whilst your great-grandfather Thomas was born at Newcastle and Sarah was born Tow Law, the family then returned to Blackhill where the rest of the children born. By todays standards living conditions no doubt were harsh but people did have their dignity. Anecdotal evidence I have collected suggests that many families kept their houses spotlessly clean and in the case of your Shannon ancestors Bottle Bank, Blackhill appears to have been a worthy place to return to for the rest of their lives after living at Wallsend, Newcastle and Tow Law.
Let us know who John Kelly's father was when the marriage certificate arrives, also, if given, John's age.

Good Luck,
J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 11 January 09 12:08 GMT (UK)
At last i have managed to get hold of the marriage certificate for my grandfather John Kelly to my grandmother Bridget Shannon -John was 37 years of age and lived at 3 John Street in Consett at the time of  the marriage which took place on the 19/01/1914 at St Marys church Blackhill-from this information could anyone help me in relation to possible death dates/burial grounds and grave positions etc and any census information which would shed more light on my grandfathers relatives-Any help would be greatly appreciated thankyou
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: JenB on Sunday 11 January 09 12:25 GMT (UK)
Paul  :)
If you remember, the vital information required from the marriage certificate was the name of John Kelly's father. Once you have told us this, we may be able to start to find census information for you.
Jennifer
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 11 January 09 13:16 GMT (UK)
Cheers Jen B his fathers name was Patrick and his profession was a farmer-cheers Paul
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Sunday 11 January 09 13:30 GMT (UK)
Paul,

The occupation of John's father Patrick as farmer complicates things as that suggests he was still in Ireland and John had emigrated as a single man, possibly as a result of chain migration, given that both a Kelly and a Shannon had lived in the same house a generation earlier.

Who witnessed John's marriage?

J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 11 January 09 14:01 GMT (UK)
Afternoon JTA -The witnesses appear to be James Kelly and E or possibly C Kelly who would they be i wonder ?-also a D Thompson who appears to be registrar  and also a Harry Gillour appears on there
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Sunday 11 January 09 14:12 GMT (UK)
Paul,

The last named would have been the priest who acted as clerk to the registrar.
The Kelly witnesses suggest John had other relations nearby. The church marriage register may give the full name of the second witness. Was Patrick Kelly, father of John "deceased" ?

Good luck,
J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Sunday 11 January 09 14:41 GMT (UK)
no mention of the word deceased-just has fathers name-Patrick Kelly and profession as  a  farmer-no other entry im afraid
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Sunday 11 January 09 14:42 GMT (UK)
Paul,

In 1881 at 19, Mill Street, Blackhill there is a John Kelly age 7 which fits, his parents are Patrick and Elizabeth Kelly but Patrick is not a farmer though he is Irish born and may have been formerly a farmer. There is also a younger brother James who could have been one of the witnesses to John's marriage, also sisters Elizabeth and Catherine, either of whom could be the E. or C. Kelly who was the second witness so this family looks good.

J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 12 January 09 12:17 GMT (UK)
My grandfather was aged 37 and was a widower when marrying my grandmother in 1914-due to the age differential (3years) it looks like this maybe someone different unfortuneately
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Monday 12 January 09 13:19 GMT (UK)
Paul,

Three years is well within the margin of error. One of my relations, an educated businessman, in 1911 stated his age to be 55 when it was in fact 67 and this was not a case of a mistranscript as it was on the original Irish householders census form completed and signed in his own hand.

John being previously married gives you more scope for research. Did your father have half siblings born before 1914?

J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Monday 12 January 09 21:57 GMT (UK)
I know so little about my fathers bloodline unfortuneately J.T.A and only know about the existence of the full siblings from the marriage which is very frustrating to say the least
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Mr J T Arthur on Monday 12 January 09 22:18 GMT (UK)
Paul,

If you try the Electoral Roll for 3, John Street, Consett for 1914 and earlier years it might help.

J.T.A.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: Paul41 on Thursday 15 January 09 09:15 GMT (UK)
Just popped on to say a massive thankyou to everyone who has attempted to help me in my search for my ancestors-everyones input  has been greatly appreciated by this novice in these things whether it be great or small and i cannot thank you all enough for your time and efforts on my behalf-as with most things a lot of questions remain un asked or resolved and the search will continue with many a brick wall no doubt to overcome and many a learning curve to be taken on board(eg not being put off by "wrong"ages etc) but i just wanted to reiterate that everyones efforts have been greatly received so thankyou once again -Paul
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: StoryWoman on Thursday 17 July 14 08:07 BST (UK)
Hi Paul41
I noticed, while trying to search my family history, that you have an Urwin living in Blackhill in your ancestry. I'm trying to find a possible Urwin link for my family to that area. Please contact me if you feel you have any information you could share with me. Thank you.
Title: Re: Beginners help required tracing KELLY family
Post by: pb3 on Wednesday 23 July 14 12:43 BST (UK)
StoryWoman

                   I only came upon this thread after reading your post. It's quite an old thread and Paul41 may have lost touch with it, so I checked the Burial records for Blackhill and the headstones I've transcribed so far in the Old and new graveyards. I found the following 4:-
In Loving Memory of
CATHERINE  URWIN
(dear Wife of the late
GEORGE EDWARD)
died 8th Jan. 1991
aged 83 years.
And her dear Sister
MARY REILLY
died 3rd Feb. 1976
aged 77 years.
R.I.P.
[Medium sized, granite headstone and plinth with integral flower vase, on concrete base. (1030)]  [Murray.]
In Loving Memory of
my dear Husband
WILLIAM
URWIN
died 13th Aug. 1966
aged 72 years.
His dear Wife
CATHERINE
URWIN
died 21st Dec. 1978
aged 81 years.
R. I. P.
[Small, white marble, lead lettered, ‘book-form’ headstone on white marble base. (830)]

In Loving Memory of
our dear Parents.
ELIZABETH M. URWIN
died 2nd Feb. 1952, aged 83 years.
ROBERT URWIN
died 19th Feb. 1952, aged 86 years.
Love is eternal.
[Medium sized, lead lettered headstone - cracked down centre - at head of a single-plot width, kerbed grave. Headstone and kerb appear to be made of concrete. (573)]
The Burial Place of WILLIAM & ANNE YOUNG of Blackhill.
In Loving Memory of
ANNE,
the beloved Wife of
WILLIAM YOUNG,
who died January 26th 1884
in the 46th year of her age.
Also their Son
ROBERT URWIN YOUNG
born December 8th 1877
died January 24th[?] 1878.
Also WILLIAM YOUNG,
who died December 17th 1922
aged 85 years.
Also ELIZABETH  ANN  THYNN
YOUNG,
who died October 30th 1924
aged 67 years.
[Large, sandstone headstone and base; some erosion. (517)]  [R.Phillips, Newcastle.]

          I've included the final one as the use of surnames as Christian names sometimes indicates a family link.

          I can't include a PDF of the Burial records since this thread does not permit attachments. If you think they may be useful you can PM me with your email address and I'll send them together with the Kelly/Kelley Burial records and headstone inscriptions.

              PatB.