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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: BethM on Monday 07 February 05 14:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi
has anyone ever researched conscientious objectors in thier families, it is believed that my Grandfather was in the second world war.
he was 30 when the war broke out and was never in the armed forces - im just wondering if any information exists anywhere which may help to answer this mystery -
now its possible he was medically unfit to fight, but given his history of being a member of the co-operative movement, and attending quaker meetings - im tempted to believe this..
we have no supporting documents at all - any pointers would be gratefully recieved.
Info:
Claude Draper
Born 1908
East Grinstead
thanks
Beth
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Hi Beth,
I regret that I can't answer your question with any degree of authority, but there is a World War 2 message board (very similar to Rootschat, but specializing in the last war), that would be an excellent place for you to start. If nobody there can assist you, try the Imperial War Museum in Lambeth, who are always very helpful.
World War 2 Talk Forum:
http://wwiiforum.com
Hope that helps!
Regards,
Swampy
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Quakers were recognised as conscientious objectors, but that didn't exempt them from the war altogether. Many COs were stretcher bearers and performed a very brave and necessary function. I am sure I have read somewhere that if the authorities thought you were trying it on, that you would be put into gaol. Being a CO certainly didn't mean that the people concerned could forget about the war and get on with their own lives.
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My grandma had a brother - who she told me was a concientous objector - he was a very shy, quiet lad, who was the baby of the family and as she put ot 'a gentle soul'. When war broke out he was horrified and could not come to terms with anyone wanting to harm another human being.....In her documents I have a registration card for him - he was arrested by the authorities, but wouldn't 'talk to anyone' - he was interred in a mental hospital - where he was put on medication and there he remained for the rest of his life, until he died aged 60. He came to stay with my grandma and her family from time to time, and I can remember visits to see him with my Gran when I was a little girl.
- Gran was heart broken about this all her life, but could not secure his release. It makes me tearful thinking about it !
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Oh ! what a very sad story Kathy - mmm - makes you think doesn't it ?
??? ???
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my grandfather was a CO during the first world war - and spent time in prison for it.
Re the Quakers - one of our 'testimonies' is to pacifism, and to this end many quakers have refused to fight. now they're pushing for a peace tax - to divert money spent on defence to peaceful ends.
if you find a Quaker CO in your tree you may be able to get more information at Quaker.org.uk - although i don't know for sure that central records were kept.
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Thanks for your replies,
i'll keep hunting to see what i turn up
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Hi
has anyone ever researched conscientious objectors in thier families, it is believed that my Grandfather was in the second world war.
he was 30 when the war broke out and was never in the armed forces - im just wondering if any information exists anywhere which may help to answer this mystery -
now its possible he was medically unfit to fight, but given his history of being a member of the co-operative movement, and attending quaker meetings - im tempted to believe this..
we have no supporting documents at all - any pointers would be gratefully recieved.
Info:
Claude Draper
Born 1908
East Grinstead
thanks
Beth
Yes, the Peace Pledge Union is undertaking continuous research into British conscientious objectors of all periods, and is compiling a comprehensive database of all COs who can be traced.
www.ppu.org.uk/coproject
Fitzjohn
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My grandma had a brother - who she told me was a concientous objector - he was a very shy, quiet lad, who was the baby of the family and as she put ot 'a gentle soul'. When war broke out he was horrified and could not come to terms with anyone wanting to harm another human being.....In her documents I have a registration card for him - he was arrested by the authorities, but wouldn't 'talk to anyone' - he was interred in a mental hospital - where he was put on medication and there he remained for the rest of his life, until he died aged 60. He came to stay with my grandma and her family from time to time, and I can remember visits to see him with my Gran when I was a little girl.
- Gran was heart broken about this all her life, but could not secure his release. It makes me tearful thinking about it !
Have you checked to see whether your great uncle is recorded in the CO database of the Peace Pledge Union? One of the purposes of the database is to make a permanent record for posterity of all those who upheld the the right to refuse to kill. Contact
www.ppu.org.uk/coproject
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HI
My Gr uncle was a co in the ww1 I am lucky as I have his records from ancestry.
He refused to sign any paper's have a medical. Also refused to take any order's and ran away at any opportunity. His record only consists of charges.
He spent most of his time in Wandsworth prison London. All this time he is described as mentally unstable. Not until he was given a pardon from the then home sectary was he described as a conscientious objector. He was taken home to his mother by police.
My Gr uncle was not a Quaker but his father was German so maybe he did not like the idea of killing any of his family, maybe he did not want to kill anyone.
Val
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My grandfather was a CO, during ww2 and he was sent with his family to work on a farm. My father is still today a CO, (on religious grounds) and is recognized as such by today's government, every now and then he gets forms that he has to complete for his family, and the rest of the congregation.
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HI
My Gr uncle was a co in the ww1 I am lucky as I have his records from ancestry.
He refused to sign any paper's have a medical. Also refused to take any order's and ran away at any opportunity. His record only consists of charges.
He spent most of his time in Wandsworth prison London. All this time he is described as mentally unstable. Not until he was given a pardon from the then home sectary was he described as a conscientious objector. He was taken home to his mother by police.
My Gr uncle was not a Quaker but his father was German so maybe he did not like the idea of killing any of his family, maybe he did not want to kill anyone.
Val
As with earlier posters to this thread, may I urge you to contact the Peace Pledge Union (PPU), which is creating as comprehensive a database as possible of every CO who can be traced, as a permanent record for posterity. By comparing notes with family members, it is often found that both the family and the PPU learn something new. There are currently 7300 names in the database, but there is still a long way to go.
Contact www.ppu.org.uk/coproject
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My grandfather was a CO, during ww2 and he was sent with his family to work on a farm. My father is still today a CO, (on religious grounds) and is recognized as such by today's government, every now and then he gets forms that he has to complete for his family, and the rest of the congregation.
May I also urge you to contact the Peace Pledge Union to ensure that your grandfather is recorded for posterity on the PPU CO database.
www.ppu.org.uk/coproject
With regard to your father, I think there must be some confusion. As there is no conscription in Britain, and has not been since 1963, there is now no formal recognition by the government of civilians as conscientious objectors to military service. Whatever official forms he may complete must relate to something else. There is a procedure whereby a volunteer member of the armed forces may seek a discharge on the grounds of having become a conscientious objector to further service, but that is quite different from forms you say your father completes.
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Hi Fitzjohn
Thank you for the link, I have just been reading it, and I am going to print it and put it with his records so my family can read it and have a better understanding of a co.
I did see a form on there but it seem's more interested in live co's or there family, Sadly I missed my Gr uncle by one year he died at the age of 102 and he was the last one of that generation. And him being a co was kept secret. But I will send them an E-mail to see if they are interested.
Val
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Thanks, Val
Although the PPU certainly welcomes enquiries from living COs and family members who knew COs personally, it equally welcomes enquiries from more remote family members. Sometimes the PPU is asked whether there has ever been a centenarian CO to compare with centenarian old soldiers. So far it has not been possible to identify one, partly because, until family members get in touch, birth and death dates of COs are often unknown. Your great uncle's 102 years will be gratifyingly noted.
Fitzjohn
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Hi Fitzjohn
I have sent the PPU an E-mail. I made a mistake about his age, he was 104.
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Very many thanks for the PPU website info.
My father (who features on my avatar) was a CO in WWII, and wrote an account of his experiences called "What did you do in the War, Daddy?", named after the famous poster.
At one point he had it published on the net - and I have a copy - but this post has led me to discover that the site which published it now no longer seems to exist. So I have mailed the PPU site to see whether they would be interested in the details.
I was very fortunate that both he, and my mother, were very great story-tellers, and I am therefore the possessor of many funny and interesting tales about the second world war, and their experiences living through it.
I am sharing these with my own children, but it would be interesting to share with interested others. This has prompted me to think of writing them up to put on my Ancestry tree.
Thanks for a thought provoking thread :)
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My grandfather was a CO, during ww2 and he was sent with his family to work on a farm. My father is still today a CO, (on religious grounds) and is recognized as such by today's government, every now and then he gets forms that he has to complete for his family, and the rest of the congregation.
May I also urge you to contact the Peace Pledge Union to ensure that your grandfather is recorded for posterity on the PPU CO database.
www.ppu.org.uk/coproject
With regard to your father, I think there must be some confusion. As there is no conscription in Britain, and has not been since 1963, there is now no formal recognition by the government of civilians as conscientious objectors to military service. Whatever official forms he may complete must relate to something else. There is a procedure whereby a volunteer member of the armed forces may seek a discharge on the grounds of having become a conscientious objector to further service, but that is quite different from forms you say your father completes.
Hi Fitzjohn...just spoken with my father...because I remember him writing out the lists of all his congregation...as I said before, My grandfather was a CO, as, now I understand, was my uncle. My Grandfather worked on a farm, whereas my uncle was jailed.
After the war, my father's congregation went through a lot of channels to ask what needed to be done, so that everyone in their Congregation would be registered as CO's. You are right, there is no formal recognition by the government, but they were informed to put in writing all the names and addresses, and send them to the then Department of Labour. My father only stopped doing this a few years ago.
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Hi
has anyone ever researched conscientious objectors in thier families, it is believed that my Grandfather was in the second world war.
he was 30 when the war broke out and was never in the armed forces - im just wondering if any information exists anywhere which may help to answer this mystery -
now its possible he was medically unfit to fight, but given his history of being a member of the co-operative movement, and attending quaker meetings - im tempted to believe this..
we have no supporting documents at all - any pointers would be gratefully recieved.
Info:
Claude Draper
Born 1908
East Grinstead
thanks
Beth
There were other reasons than medical and religious beliefs that would stop someone being called up. Thousands of men (my grandfather included) were not called up because they were in "Reserved Occupations". Lots of people think of doctors and other highly skilled professions when this is mentioned, but the list was far wider. My grandfather was a labourer in the local Gas Company, and because this job was vital to the nation and too physically demanding to be done by a woman, he wasn't called up. Actually, I think he was too old anyway, but if he'd been younger, he wouldn't have been called to serve.
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Very many thanks for the PPU website info.
My father (who features on my avatar) was a CO in WWII, and wrote an account of his experiences called "What did you do in the War, Daddy?", named after the famous poster.
At one point he had it published on the net - and I have a copy - but this post has led me to discover that the site which published it now no longer seems to exist. So I have mailed the PPU site to see whether they would be interested in the details.
Actually, Arthur Pay is still on the web, in at least three places. Here is what seems to be the original posting:
http://timewitnesses.org/english/~arthurp.html
There is an offer of a link to a longer version, but it does not work.
This publication will by no means diminish the interest of the PPU, which is interested in all CO stories. See, for example, the exchanges on another thread about George Benson, an imprisoned WW1 CO who went on to become an MP and a knight of the realm.
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The Conscientious Objectors came from many walks of life. andwere given the option to work in the hospitals and other parts of the service to their country without atually fighting the enemy.
There was the problem of the "white feathers" to contend with, usually sent to wives and parents.
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Thank you very much indeed, Fitzjohn, for finding the reference to my father Arthur Pay - you can see it's the same man from the photo!
As you say, the site with the long version of the story doesn't now seem to exist, and I feel that I must ensure what he wrote is still published somewhere or other.
I'm looking forward to hearing from the PPU.
:)