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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Nick29 on Friday 12 December 08 11:29 GMT (UK)
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How is Plaxtol pronounced ? Is there a local pronunciation for it ?
Here's the theory....... my g.g. uncle on one census reputedly said that he was born in Plaistow, Kent (1807 'ish) , but there is nothing in the parish records to substantiate this. Going on the concept that he was probably illiterate, and someone else filled in the form on his behalf by word of mouth, I'm wondering whether Plaxtol may have been mis-heard as Plaistow ?
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There is such a place, Nick
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/parindex.htm
http://www.aboutbritain.com/towns/plaxtol.asp
Barbara :)
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Thanks Barbara - I know it exists - I really need to know how it is pronounced ...... i.e. do locals have a different way of pronouncing it, to the extent that it could be confused with Plaistow ? :)
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Nick,im pretty certain,having heard people say it,that its pronounced differently to how it appears,something like plastol or plastow,so it could be confused with plaistow,its a small village near sevenoaks,nel.
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Hi Nick, I live a couple of miles from Plaxtol and have only heard it pronounced by local people as it's spelt.
Bill.
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http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/brml_plc.htm
There is also a place called Plaistow in Kent (now part of Bromley)
Kanskar
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The Original Kentish accent for that area might make it sound like Plastow to someone not familiar with local accents.
I am not sure how an X was pronounced in the Kentish dialect. T's were generally silent and W's sounded like V's, so an X could be close to S.
Possible something akin to plas--o
Adrian
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Have you checked the parish records for Plaxtol to see if he was born there? :)
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Have you checked the parish records for Plaxtol to see if he was born there? :)
Trouble is that his name is so common he could have been born just about anywhere........ well, anywhere except Plaistow, Kent, because I've already checked the parish registers there, and no matches at all :) My g.g. grandfather also had a brother, and I'm hoping I can find them both in the same parish (this is the subject of another current thread).
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Just a thought - have you tried Chislehurst for the baptisms of those MARTINs? I only ask because there is a Thomas and Abigial MARTIN living in Plaistow, Bromley 1841-1861 who appear to have children baptised in Chislehurst earlier 1800s. Unfortunately the batch number C147561 is females only at present so difficult to tell if they had any boys baptised there too http://www.familysearch.org
Casalguidi :)
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Can you tell us the names you are looking for or did you already & I've missed it? :D
Have you looked on more than one census?
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Well, I have presented this brick wall here before, but (at the risk of boring anyone), I'm more than happy to give the details again :)
My g.g. grandfather was William MARTIN. He first appears on any record that I have found marrying Mary WOOD on 10 Feb 1833 at St. Nicholas Church, Plumstead, Kent, and I have a copy of the parish records, and the witnesses to the marriage were Thomas MARTIN and his wife Amy MARTIN (nee WOOD) (Amy was Mary's sister, and both came from Chipping in Hertfordshire). Both were shown "of this parish" and were married by banns.
On the 1841 census (Eltham HO107/482, Folio: 8, Page: 10) he is listed aged 30 and is shown as being born in the county. They are living in "Friths Buildings" in Eltham, which was a small cul-de-sac off Eltham Hill, where Eltham swimming baths now stand. There are a few other MARTIN families close by, but I've never established a relationship. There is a Sarah Martin (b. 1832) living with them, who isn't shown on the parish register, and who never appears again, so I'm wondering if she was a niece, or maybe she was an illegitimate child ?
On the 1851 census (Eltham HO107/1590, Folio: 461, Page: 4) William is shown as being 46 years old, and Mary 43. His place of birth is recorded as "London". They are still living in Friths buildings.
On the 1861 census (Eltham RG9/412, Folio: 44, Page: 3) they are both living in Eltham High Street with Mary's widowed sister Amy, who is running a grocer's shop. William gives his place of birth as "London, Middlesex, England".
William MARTIN died of Phthisis (TB) in the Greenwich workhouse on 15 March 1866, in the presence of his son. Mary had already died on 30 January 1864.
Thomas MARTIN (William's brother) first appears with his marriage to Amy WOOD on 24 January 1830 at St. Mary's church in Lee, Kent. I have a copy of the parish records, and the witnesses were a Louisa Strachan and a John Hearndon. I haven't been able to trace Louisa, but John Hearndon was the church sexton, so Louisa may also have been a casual witness. Both were shown "of this parish" and were married by banns. The IGI shows several other MARTIN families using St. Mary's church, but I doubt if they were relations if Thomas & Amy had to resort to casual witnesses.
On the 1841 census (Eltham HO107/482, Folio 10, Page: 4) Thomas is living with Amy in Eltham High Street, apparently sharing a house with Roderick COSLETT, who was a fairly accomplished artist of his day. Thomas says that he was born in the county.
On the 1851 census (Eltham HO107/1590, Folio 483, Page: 4) Thomas is still in Eltham High Street running a grocer's shop, and he gives his place of birth as Plaistow, Kent. Amy is incorrectly transcribed by Ancestry as Mary. They have the GOSLING family living with them, but I can't find any family connection.
Thomas MARTIN died sometime around 1856, but I can't find a death record for him (it was definitely before the 1861 census) - I've tried twice, and twice got the wrong man. His wife AMY died in Maidstone lunatic asylum in 1864.
There are quite a few MARTINs listed in the St. Johns Eltham parish records, including the children of William MARTIN and Thomas MARTIN (Thomas & Amy only had one child, who lived 1 day). However, before about 1820 there don't appear to be any MARTINs at all, so they must have migrated into the area (well, all except John Martin, b.1808, who was born in Eltham).
I know so much about these people, but I can't trace where the male side came from ! Any help gratefully received :)
P.S. I can't even say for sure that Thomas and William were brothers, but I do know that Mary and Amy were definitely sisters.
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http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/brml_plc.htm
There is also a place called Plaistow in Kent (now part of Bromley)
Kanskar
Plaistow is quite common, one in east London and in West Sussex,
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I'm just wondering if the key to all this is MAIDSTONE ?
In Maidstone there are a whole host of MARTINs, born 1800-1810, including a William, a Thomas and a John. Not all to the same parents, though. I am, however, assuming that William and Thomas were brothers - I jumped to this conclusion when I saw William living as an "in law" in Thomas' widow's house, but that was before I found out that Mary and Amy were sisters. Maybe William and Thomas were cousins, not brothers ?
Why did Amy die in Maidstone assylum, so far from home ?
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Why did Amy die in Maidstone assylum, so far from home ?
Do you mean the asylum at Barming near Maidstone? If so, that was the Kent asylum. There are records for Barming at the Centre for Kentish Studies in Maidstone.
Casalguidi :)
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Yes, it was the Barming asylum. Poor old Amy died of Phthisis (TB) there - in the "occupation" column of her death certificate it says "Formerly a shopkeeper residing in the Lewisham Union".
I'll have to take a look at the Centre for Kentish studies..... thanks ! :)
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I'd put my money on it being a miss-hearing of Plaistow Bromley - because it isn't that far away from Lewisham.
Just a thought - because someone says they were born in Plaistow doesn't mean that they were baptised there. I was born in Rochester but I wasn't baptised there ....
Carole
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Thanks Barbara - I know it exists - I really need to know how it is pronounced ...... i.e. do locals have a different way of pronouncing it, to the extent that it could be confused with Plaistow ? :)
Hi, not sure if you actually had an answer to your original question; but having grown up in the area I always knew it, and heard it pronounced "plackstul" with the emphasis on the "x" and and not really very similar to Plaistow (London). There is also a Plaistow near Billingshurst, W. Sussex just to possibly add to the confusion
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I wasn't aware that there was one in Sussex too, thanks for that ! However, the 1851 census says "Plastow, Kent" (the letter i appears to be missing).
I'm still no closer to a solution to this, incidentally :)
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Just having a quick look at this as it is now bugging me (it has probably driven you mad by now ) but I found these references to "Plastow" "The Plastow Level", and "Plastow, part of Kent" from an old map of 1789.
http://archivemaps.com/mapco/kent1789/kent02_01.htm
It appears to me that it is closer to modern Plaistow, East London rather than Bromley, but not that far from the latter. There is also a Plastow Lane in Bromley with your spelling.
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It's been driving me mad for nearly two years ! :)
Unfortunately Thomas only lived long enough to appear on two censuses - the 1841, which is not of much use in establishing birthplace, and the 1851 census, where he puts "Plastow, Kent". He was married in Lee, Kent. And I'm still not totally sure whether he was actually my great uncle by marriage or by blood (he was married to my g.g. grandmother's sister, but he may also have been my g.g. grandfather's brother). My g.g. grandfather either put down "London" or "London Middlesex" as his birth place. See the previous page for more details. Thomas died without heirs, and I've researched all of my g.g. grandfather's children for clues, and found none. The family seems to arrive in Eltham Kent around 1830, and in the period 1850 to 1870 there were over 100 Martins in Eltham, and their relationships are proving very difficult.
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Lee and Eltham are very close as I am sure you know but I guess that does not help in knowing whether your Plastow is the Bromley one or East London one. Sounds complicated all in all!
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Well, to make things worse, most of the men in the family (with the exception of Thomas) were bricklayers, so they moved around a bit. Thomas died of an aneurism of the heart, and he had rheumatic fever, so he may well have chosen a lighter profession because of it.
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My lot have lots of army members going around the empire having kids all over the place. They don't make it easy!
All the best
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Hi Nick,
Ref your orriginal question heading this thread.
I come from the Swale area of kent and we have quite a few Plaxtol Roads here.
Unlike the Sevenoaks Weald Dialect over this way the word Plaxtol is pronounced Playstool as in Play and Stool. So you could find several prununciations depending on location.
Regards Rog
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I'd put my money on it being a miss-hearing of Plaistow Bromley - because it isn't that far away from Lewisham.
Just a thought - because someone says they were born in Plaistow doesn't mean that they were baptised there. I was born in Rochester but I wasn't baptised there ....
Carole
Just read this and it is almost a straight road from lee through grove park to the plaistow area of bromley it has its own church and cemetary. Hope this helps. also if you carry on past plaistow you will come to chislhurst the roads havent changed much in a hundred yeards or more.
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Thanks for that. I used to know the area pretty well, because I was born in Greenwich, and went to school and had friends in Eltham, but that was 40 years ago, and so much has changed in that time. I must admit that I found chris2705's post a little worrying, because I thought I had the correct Plastow (Plaistow), but now I'm not so sure. I'm still desperately searching for clues to tie them to an area in the pre-1820 period.
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Just having a quick look at this as it is now bugging me (it has probably driven you mad by now ) but I found these references to "Plastow" "The Plastow Level", and "Plastow, part of Kent" from an old map of 1789.
http://archivemaps.com/mapco/kent1789/kent02_01.htm
It appears to me that it is closer to modern Plaistow, East London rather than Bromley, but not that far from the latter. There is also a Plastow Lane in Bromley with your spelling.
The maps are very interesting - it's amazing how the place names have changed - not a lot but just subtly in 200 odd years.
Surely the Plastow Level must refer to the one north of the river - so wouldn't he have said he was born in Essex? Or am I just getting confused?
Carole
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I think we're both getting confused, Carole - I'm forever trying to get my head around boundary changes :)
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Hi, I live in the area and also used to live in Bromley. Plaistow is just to the north of Bromley and would be, at most, two miles from either Lee or Eltham. The name is pronounced Play-stoh, as opposed to Plar-stoh in East London. Look for Burn Ash Road on google maps, follow this south to Grove Park Station then Sundridge Park Station. Plaistow is in the vicinity of Sundridge Park Station.
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Thanks Dimps, this is quite an old post. Since then I've managed to speak to the church archivist at St John's Church in Eltham, where most of my dad's ancestors were buried, and discovered that most of the MARTIN family in that area were related, because of information I found on shared graves. I still haven't discovered the exact relationship between William and Thomas, though :)