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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 09 December 08 11:06 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and CathayB has set you all a really hard task. Mind you, it's an interesting one.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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okay here it is folks:
I have a Buckingham Bird fom Ipswich who married a Grace Sarah Mills in 1872 in Mitcham
His father was Buckingham Bird, her father was William Mills Decorator.
Witness wee William Mills and what looks likes Hamish Mills (could have been Harriet??)
I have another Rueban Bird basket maker married Abigail Horn in 1872 fathers Thomas Bird a brazier and James Horn Basket maker.
Thomas was married to a Suke Bird and my cousin and I beleive this to be Susannah Mills, as they appear often next door to our families
These folks we think tie in with our Taylors, Coopers, Smiths as well!!!! So lets see where this family take us?
I really want to establish a family line for the birds out of this and also see who connects.
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Morning
when i read Buckingham Bird i thought you meant a lady who came from Buckingham ;D
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You're not on your own there Toni ;) ;)
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here i am flks just got up.will post link to me friends as soon as i can.overslept i am afraid.sorry about the HIC UP!!!!.these arent easy so i dont expect to get as large as other times.speak soon.cathayb
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1851 HO107; 1800; 559; 8
Buckingham Bird (aged 3) s/o Buckingham Bird (b.1819) & Mary Ann
siblings Charles Gill Bird (5) & Maria Gill Bird (1)
1861 RG9; 1165; 82; 36
with parents and siblings and the additon of 2 more siblings Catherine aged 9 and William H aged 3
1871 RG10; 1749; 5; 3
still with father and siblings Catherine Emily and Marian Gill only other siblings have dispersed
mother has died
1881 RG11; 1869; 10; 13
with wife Grace Sarah and children Buckingham W 7, Grace 6 and Lionel 4
1881 RG11; 1868; 5; 4
Buckingham Father (b.1819) with daughter Marian G
1891 RG12; 1473; 40; 28
Buckingham Father (b.1819)
1891 RG12; 1466; 112; 15
Buckingham with wife (Grace Sarah) and now 6 children
Buckingham Wm, Grace & Lionel as before
additons Hilda 8, Nesta 3 and Eric 9months
and Russel Hone - nephew (9)
1901 RG13; 1773; 120; 22
Buckingham with wife Grace Sarah
and children Hilda, Eric & Nesta as before Plus Doris aged 6
1901 RG13; 1774; 119; 9
Buckingham W & wife Lucy
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Jeeeeeeeze Toni........are you out to solve it all on the first page....... :D :D
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:D wow that was quick off the mark!!!!havent stopped for breath yet. i have not got a memebership to ancestry anymore so i hvae to plught through family search!!!!could you tell me what area these are all in?and occupations
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russell hone nephew is interesting?i dont think hone is a travellers name is it?
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Buckingham Senior married Mary Ann Gill (explains the middle name of some of the children) Q2 1845 Ipswich 12 521
Buckingham married Grace Sarah Mills you know
Buckingham W(illiam) m. Lucy Manlove Q3 1900 Ipswich 4a 1609
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:D wow that was quick off the mark!!!!havent stopped for breath yet. i have not got a memebership to ancestry anymore so i hvae to plught through family search!!!!could you tell me what area these are all in?and occupations
all over Suffolk way
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i am wondering if horn and hone were names that got mixed in the spelling by the enumerator?what with cousin marriages in the family and so on?
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Marriage - Mar 1880 Qtr Kingston 2a 383
Charles Hone - Eleanor Sophia Mills
1881 living at Cavan, Croydon with new born son Charles S Hone along with 2 servants and sister in law Martha A Mills. Charles is an Artist's Clerk.
Kanskar
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Buckingham Bird born 27 Dec 1847 Christened Suffolk 31 Jan 1855 age 7 parents Buckingham Bird and Mary Ann
Christened same day
Charles Gill born 28 Feb 1846
Mary Ann Gill born 19 Jun 1849
Catherine Emily born 20 Jun 1851
Jan ;)
Also
William Henry born 20 Jul 1857 Christened Ipswich 26 Aug 1857
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Forgot to mention - Charles Hone was born in Pimlico.
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Buckingham Bird Christened Ipswich St Margaret 23 Feb 1819 parents Charles Bird and Elizabeth
Jan ;)
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Mary Ann Bird nee Gill died betwixt the 1861 & 1871 census
1851 Buckingham (father) was Painter and Glazier employing 4 men (Carr Street Ipswich)
1861 Buckingham (father was Plumber Gas Fitter employing 2 men & 1 boy
children all scholars (20 Carr Street)
1871 Buckingham (father) was Plumber & Decorator employing 6 men and 2 apprentices
Buckingham was a gas fitter and plumber - girls no occupation given
1881 now at 17 Westgate Street - Plumber & C - was Buckingham father
Buckingham in 1881 was at 129 Norwich Road Plumber Decorator & Master Employing 11 Men
1891 Buckingham father certified plumber 25 High Street
Buckingham 129 Norwich Street, Plumber & Decorator as was Buckingham Wm - Grace Lionel & Hilda were scholars Russel Hone the nepwhe was born Croydon so wonder if he was a nephwe of Grace Sarah rather than Buckingham seeing as this is where Buckingham married Grace Sarah (who seems inconsistent with her p.o.b ::))
1901
127 & 129 Norwich Road
Buckingham is a Plumber & House Decorator
HIlda is now a teacher in school
64 Barley Hall Road
Buckingham (W) Plumber & Decorator wife Lucy was born Notts
Address all Ipswich
the trade directories should help fill in the gaps betwixt the census
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where is Buckingham b. 1819 in 1841 ? - hopefully with his parents somewhere
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Deaths Q1 1901
Bird Buckingham 81 Ipswich 4a 594 (father)
it would be interesting to see who regsietred his death
Deaths Q4 1926
Bird Buckingham 78 Ipswich 4a 1027
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wheres plimlico?sorry my geographys terrible. welcome to those of you i havent met before too.i like the mills connections coming in now.starting to look promising
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they are looking less like travellers all the time!can we try the mills line and see if we find a travellers connection.cause my mills were gypsies!!!
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yes it seems the Birds were well established in Ipswich
Deaths Dec 1864
Bird Mary Ann Ipswich 4a 380
or
Deaths Dec 1871
Bird Mary 65 Ipswich 4a 426
but would the later one appear of the 1871 census
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Pimlico is just to the south of Westminster in London
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Births Jun 1846
Bird Charles Gill Ipswich 12 37_
Births Sep 1849
BIRD Marian Gill Ipswich 12 346
Marriages Jun 1894
Bird Charles Gill Ipswich 4a 1133
Elvin Sarah Laura
Goodwin William Charles
Munnings Caroline
1901 RG13; 1664; 79; : 23.
23 Westbury Road Brentwood
Charles G Bird 55 ...... engineer b. Ipswich
Sarah L 47 wife b. do.
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Jeeeeeeeze Toni........are you out to solve it all on the first page....... :D :D
not on the first page maybe 2 or 3
;D ;D ;D
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1851 Dove Yard Ipswich
Sarah BIrd head widow 76 Pauper Charwoman b. Bredfield
thus born circa 1775 i wonder if she is Buckingham (the elder) mother
Robert Son 34 jobbbing Bricklayer b. Ipswich
William son 32 Labourer at Iron Foundry b. do.
HO107; 1800; 379; : 31
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dont you worry i will find you something else to search to go along eventually with these.i like to get the most out of these hunts.yo know me?
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Buckingham William Bird was bp. at St Matthew in Ispwich 15 JUne 1873
s/o Buckingham & Grace Sarah
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so in 1841 we find Sarah Bird with her children (both labourers) as before AND (what appears to be) husband JOhn a carpenter
HO107; 1043; 5; : 13; 37; 15; .
Steam Mill LAne Ipswich
No Buckingham :-\
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Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #50 on: Friday 05 December 08 13:07 GMT (UK) »
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Hello Every one
I have just contacted a direct rellie of Jabez and Emily's first born Athalia b 1903
and although they dont know a great deal between us we may find out a lot more.
I have been given a lot of info by one of the great great great grandaughters of Sarah and jeremiah of which I am sifting through.
Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
But looking at his website it may well be another Bird group of families.
Watch this space.
Samuel Cooper who married Annie Shephard in Hadlow his father was also called Samuel. b abt 1857.
At first I thought he may have been the son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams born in 1856 but on tracing it back he looks as tough he is related to matthias Cooper of Queen Victoria fame. I am convinced he is connected to my Samuel b 1794. But how I am still working out.
this will put the cat among the pidgeons.. read it carefully to see bird.this is where we need the connections and now your into the real hunt.you didnt think i would make it that easy did you??
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1851 Dove Yard Ipswich
Sarah BIrd head widow 76 Pauper Charwoman b. Bredfield
thus born circa 1775 i wonder if she is Buckingham (the elder) mother
Robert Son 34 jobbbing Bricklayer b. Ipswich
William son 32 Labourer at Iron Foundry b. do.
HO107; 1800; 379; : 31
Hi toni
From the christening record I posted Buckingham senior's mother is given as Elizabeth
Jan ;)
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woo hoo found Buckingham in 1841
scrap Sarah from before
HO107; 1043; 7; : 4; : 49; 7;
Ipswich St Margarets
Backingh Bird 20
Elizth Bird 50
(page 8)
Elizth Bird 25
Cartter Bird 20
Mary Bird 18
Sarah Bird 15
Henry Bird 15
All born in county
occupations hard to read sorry
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so for a start i think it may well be the wrong bird family now so can we find the right ones?and any info on the ones just mentioned which we do have quite alot on but the smiths have got us stuck in this lot in particular a rosie smith.her dad married emma taylor from the hartlake disaster lot that we have covered before.she as the grandaughter of sarah taylor that died along with her son and grandson in the tradgy
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Hi toni
From the christening record I posted Buckingham senior's mother is given as Elizabeth
Jan ;)
Jan i only saw Buckingham b. 1847/8 bp. that you posted sorry :-[ i must have missed the other one however i found him in 1841 now anyhow with what seems to be his mother ELizabeth although Buckingham is listed first persumably as the oldest male in the house
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so for a start i think it may well be the wrong bird family now so can we find the right ones?and any info on the ones just mentioned which we do have quite alot on but the smiths have got us stuck in this lot in particular a rosie smith.her dad married emma taylor from the hartlake disaster lot that we have covered before.she as the grandaughter of sarah taylor that died along with her son and grandson in the tradgy
you don't mention any Birds names
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i do
and although they dont know a great deal between us we may find out a lot more.
I have been given a lot of info by one of the great great great grandaughters of Sarah and jeremiah of which I am sifting through.
Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
But looking at his website it may well be another Bird group of families.
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Reuben & Abigail (misctranscribed as Abigial) Bird and family are on the 1881 census.
Address is Mitcham Common Tent. Reuben is a Pedlar.
Reuben (aged 50) b. Chittenstone, Kent
Abigail (born 45) b. Franfield, Sussex
Offspring - Henry (23), James (19), Harriet, John (6), Frank (2) and Louise
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now we are with it.now it gets exciting dosnt it?
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and i was doing so well with the other family can't you adopt them?
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Blimey ..page 3 and I am lost...
can someone clue me in?
deb
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Hey Deb start from Kanskars post
Reuben & Abigail (misctranscribed as Abigial) Bird and family are on the 1881 census.
Address is Mitcham Common Tent. Reuben is a Pedlar.
Reuben (aged 50) b. Chittenstone, Kent
Abigail (born 45) b. Franfield, Sussex
Offspring - Henry (23), James (19), Harriet, John (6), Frank (2) and Louise
ignore the other stuff - wrong Bird family
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its okay debs we had the wrong family!!!!its only just really starting!!!bacically i want the bird line to do with taylors,coopers and smiths,
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okay here it is folks:
I have a Buckingham Bird fom Ipswich who married a Grace Sarah Mills in 1872 in Mitcham
His father was Buckingham Bird, her father was William Mills Decorator.
Witness wee William Mills and what looks likes Hamish Mills (could have been Harriet??)
wrong family ::)
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Okay ....
so we are working forward/backwards and sideways with reuben and Abigail then?
deb :)
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Framfield would equal Uckfield reg district
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yep!didnt think i would make it easy do you cousin?and dont worry toni i needed to be able to discount the other family before i could proceed.so its still a good job done.
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Births Jun 1843
Horn Matilda Uckfield 7 169
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Hi All,
Im here as well :D :D
Just going to read through :)
Sue
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Found this in 1861
Ashdown Forest
Maresfield, Sussex
Abigail HORN head mar 80 wife of ag lab b Battersea surrey
James mar 60 ag lab b Sunberry? Middlesex
RHEUBEN HORN son mar 25 b Surrey
ABIGAIL HORN dau mar 21 b Sussex FRAMFIELD, SUSSEX...trenscibed as Abagirl!
HENRY HORN gr son 2 B WORTH SUSSEX
Is this Reuben BIRD and family??
deb
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nice to see you.ignore the first few pages we had the wrong family!!!!!!! :'(
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ohh i hope so.looking good.
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how are the HORN family connected to the BIRDS ...arrghhh must reread
deb
added ...okay got it!
"I have another Rueban Bird basket maker married Abigail Horn in 1872 fathers Thomas Bird a brazier and James Horn Basket maker."
so Reuben BIRD was under the HORN Family name in 1861 :)
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Rueben Bird m. Abigail Horn from Framfield
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Hi all, Christmas shopping done, beast asleep, I'm ready to play!!
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What about this family?
RG09 / 788 / 95 / 67 1861
William Mulls head age 26, occ Mat maker hay faire
Sarah Mulls wife age 24
John Mills son age 4
Alice Mills dau age ?
Charles Grosvenor lodger age 16
All b NK, Address Caravan Chipping Barnet
Think William and Sarah names may be mispelt ???
Living in caravan next to them is a James and Fanny Smith ?? Also other families in caravans.
Where is Chipping Barnet? Am i in wrong area?
Sue
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Oh...... Think its in Middlesex after doing quick searh :D
Sue
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Reuben & Abigail (misctranscribed as Abigial) Bird and family are on the 1881 census.
Address is Mitcham Common Tent. Reuben is a Pedlar.
Reuben (aged 50) b. Chittenstone, Kent
Abigail (born 45) b. Franfield, Sussex
Offspring - Henry (23), James (19), Harriet, John (6), Frank (2) and Louise
And in the next tent along (on the next page) is another Henry Bird (23, born Worth, Sussex) and his family (wife Mary Ann 24, born Maidstone, son George 6 also born Maidstone, dau Sarah A 4 bn Chatham, and dau Elizabeth 7 mnths bn Brenchley)
Edited to add: think that the two Henry's are the same person, enumerated twice.
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Christening
Reuben Bird 19 Oct 1834 in Chiddingstone Kent parents Thomas Bird and Mary
Jan ;)
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good going !
I do think this is them in 1861 ...Reuben under his wife's maiden name ...also her father is James which is her dad's name on marriage cert POB fits aswell
cannot find them in 1851 or 1841 yet
Found this in 1861
Ashdown Forest
Maresfield, Sussex
Abigail HORN head mar 80 wife of ag lab b Battersea surrey
James mar 60 ag lab b Sunberry? Middlesex
RHEUBEN HORN son mar 25 b Surrey
ABIGAIL HORN dau mar 21 b Sussex FRAMFIELD, SUSSEX...trenscibed as Abagirl!
HENRY HORN gr son 2 B WORTH SUSSEX
Is this Reuben BIRD and family??
deb
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looking good chaps.sorry i cant do much but my ancestry membership has run out!!!but i couldnt mis the chance of a scavenger hunt.leave some for the folks who will come on tonight.your doing really weel.i am busy trying to form a tree out of what you are all getting.
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athelias (taylor)grandson is a taylor from the bird family!!!!!!stopping with them in one of the cencuses
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1891
East Fields, Mitcham Surrey
2 Concrete cottage
Abigail Bird head wid 51 flower hawker b Framfield
William Halford son in law mar 21 gen lab b Essex
Harriet Bird dau mar 19 flower hawker Mitcham
Frank son 13 scholar Mitcham Surrey
Louis son 10 ditto
deb
added ..a Mills family close by ...also flower Hawkers
5 Concrete cottage
Eli Mills head mar 37 flower hawker b Surrey Coher/s?
Mary mar 38 Flower Hawker b Gillingham
Aaron son 10 b Mitcham
Elis son 13 b Surrey Croydon
William son 4 b Mitcham
Mary J dau single 17 flower Hawker b Croydon
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Wonder if this family are linked
1891
Tent on Abinger Common
James Bird Head M 45 Broom Maker Kent parish NK
Elizabeth do Wife M 33 do do
Reuben do Son 10 Sussex Parish NK
Francis do do 7 Hants do
Priscilla do daur 3 Surrey do
William do Nephew 18 Broom Maker Sussex Parish NK
RG12/574/79 Pg6
Jan ;)
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Thoiught I would post the 1881 so that we can refer back
1881
Mitcham
Tents
Reuben BIRD 50 pedlar b Kent Chittenstone ..s/o Thomas and Mary chr 19 Oct 1834 died after 1881
Abigail wife 45 b Framfield d/o James , brazier, maiden name =HORN
Henry Son 23 b Worth Sussex = Mary Ann ??
James son 19 b St John Sussex .... need to find him in 1891 onward
Harriet dau 8 Mitcham = William Halford..where are they in 1901?
John son 6 b Mitchum .....also need to find him 1891..1901= With Abigail
Frank son 2 Godstone .. with widowed, mum, Abigail in 1891
Louise dau 2 months b Mitcham ...not on 1891 ...has she died?
by 1891 Abigail has a SON LOUIS 10 b Mitcham ...is he Louise ??
deb :)
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Okay ...I am going nuts ...can't find anyone in 1901
will keep trying tho
deb :D
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:) :D
having just posted that I can't see them in 1901 ...I have now found them
1901
Gillingham
In tent
Back of Balmorral rd
Abigial BIRD head wid 62 hawker/ own account b not known
John son 26 single
francis dau single 21
Joe Fuggles 10
Joseph Russell 20
Mary Eastwood 20
Mary Eastman 17
all born Not known
travelling with them in caravans are
The LEE Family ...headed by Walter Lee 62 hawker
The JEFFREY Family ..headed by John 35 travelling showman b Wiltshire, Devizes
The BAKER Family ...headed by Thomas 29 travelling showman n NK
SMALL Family ... head Henry 33 hawker b NK
PERFECT family head Henry 33 hawker b NK
2 more LEE Families;
Head Ambrose 21 hawker b Kent Charham
Head Albert 44 hawker b NK
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:'( It's my first hunt and first post! I have only just found them on the 1881 and have been searching for hours.! I think I will just spectate. Good luck everybody.
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wow and unrelated to this i have been looking for some baker bits so theres two helps for me.
i really want to know how the birds connect to my taylors coopers and mills.we are seeing some mills i wonder about the others?
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your very welcome tatee.always good to see new folk on here.fraid my ancestory membership has just run out and i dont want to renew untill after christmas but these are really good researchers we have here and they love the roms so will really go for it.debs is my american cousin and shes a real star.
to the rest of you i have a fair few lees in my tree so lets hope we start to connect to my kent lines soon.cant really see it yet but i know we do.am i missing something?
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Hi Tatee,
Welcome to rootschat, and well done for finding them on the 1881 census. Don't be discouraged - sometimes it is just a lucky guess that finds the missing people.
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re the lee s in that cenucus did albert have a son called albert?cause i have albert lee born 1880 but dont know where?
and i got a walter lee born 1879 in farnham surrey.he married alice mary winkett?maybe nothing to do with it but thought i would mention as its my family line.
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Is this family anything to do with the others ???
1891 RG12 / 1405 / 124 / 15
Fred Bird head age 23 b Romford, Essex, occ traveller
Caroline wife age 32 b Needham, Norfolk
William son age 1 b Thorpe, Essex
Robert son age 3 months b Chelmsford, Essex
Address Caravan, Tenpenny Hill, Thorrington, Essex
There are others in caravans but not name Cathay has mentioned
Sue
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just a reminder how the birds tie in and i want the connection if possible a bit learer.
I have just contacted a direct rellie of Jabez and Emily's first born Athalia b 1903
and although they dont know a great deal between us we may find out a lot more.
I have been given a lot of info by one of the great great great grandaughters of Sarah and jeremiah of which I am sifting through.
Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
But looking at his website it may well be another Bird group of families.
Watch this space.
Samuel Cooper who married Annie Shephard in Hadlow his father was also called Samuel. b abt 1857.
At first I thought he may have been the son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams born in 1856 but on tracing it back he looks as tough he is related to matthias Cooper of Queen Victoria fame. I am convinced he is connected to my Samuel b 1794. But how I am still working out.
this will put the cat among the pidgeons.. read it carefully to see bird.this is where we need the connections and now your into the real hunt.you didnt think i would make it that easy did you??
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can we have the other family names in the last bird cencus jamjo?i may recognise something.
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Cathay here are other families in caravans :)
Ruth Coleman, wid, age 40 and family, David and Charlotte Print and family and Walter and
Alice Witney. They are down as travellers :)
Sue
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Going back to Abigail Horn who married Reuben Bird
she states her dad as James on her marriage cert ....But look at the difference in ages between Abigial snr and james, the dad ... 20 years.... :o
Do you think Abigail might just belong to Abigail snr and was adopted by James ..or is James her real dad and Abigail Snr her step mother ... I cannot find them in 1841 or 1851 ...but will check again
Found this in 1861
Ashdown Forest
Maresfield, Sussex
Abigail HORN head mar 80 wife of ag lab b Battersea surrey
James mar 60 ag lab b Sunberry? Middlesex
RHEUBEN HORN son mar 25 b Surrey...this is Reuben BIRD
ABIGAIL HORN dau mar 21 b Sussex FRAMFIELD, SUSSEX...trenscibed as Abagirl!
HENRY HORN gr son 2 B WORTH SUSSEX
will read your new posts ...Hi Tatee ...welcome :)
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
1851
Lower Beeding, Sussex
Abigail HORN head mar age ? basket maker b Battle
Abigail dau 4 b Sussex breadfield?
/
Harrison? Horn head mar 26 basket maker b Sussex, Lewes ...transcribed under GORN
Louisa? wife 24 b Surrey Dorking
Henry son 5 b Sussex Hartfield
George son 2 b Weatherfield? Sussex
writing is rather unclear
deb :)
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off topic again i just noticed you got james surname wales in your tree.are they travellers cause i got james wales in my tree and later they are in devon. sorry folks personal message to my cousin
for debs usa
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:) :)
Cathay ..sorry not travellers ...The James family very much fishermen/seamen/Royal navy etc ,.
Cathay, Jabez and Emily's first born Athalia b 1903 ..are they BIRDS or TAYLORS?
deb
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Ok im lost ;D ;D
What are we looking for now, Bird, Mills Taylor or what :D :D :D
This one is difficult Cathay ;D ;D
Sue
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that is the question.they are definately not birds.they are taylors but as far as i remember jabez or is son change their name to cooper at some point but i wish carol (night owl )was here cause i think she knows about that.i will go and take a look at some ols post though.cathay
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Jabez Taylor (their father) married Emily Dunn on the 18th August 1902 in Fulham, London, aged 21 and was a crater, Father John Taylor, Crater ( I have the marriage Cert)
Picture of the Grave, which reads as follows
Atherlia Taylor (their Grandmother) who died 25th June 1902 aged 64
Emily Taylor (their mother) who passed away 2nd November 1953 aged 72
Jabez Taylor (their Father) wife of the above who passed away 11th Feb 1965 aged 86
This is what my Great Aunts tell me
Jabez Taylor came from Kent because they all went hop picking with him when they were little, and he took them to Kent to live with relatives of his, in tents and caravans, One year he lost a lot of relatives, when a lot of caravans went over the edge of the road killing the people inside,
He took his mothers name because of some feud in the family
His fathers name was Samuel Smith who they think was a gardener and when he died was buried in the Manor House were he worked.
I dont know why he would say on his marriage Cert his father was John Taylor if he knew it was Sam Smith, I cant find a Birth Cert for him without knowing the father, I can find nothing on his mother Atherlia, even in the 1901 Census, although she died in 1902, One of my Great Aunts thinks that he was born in the Croydon area, was always told that the Smiths were relatives.
forget i said cooper i meant smith
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Athaliah Taylor married Joshua Cooper, Matty Coopers son. They had two children that i know of, William Cooper and Selina Cooper. Joshua died young and then Athaliah 'married' Sam Smith, son of Perron Smith (he being son of Elijah Smith and Sophia Chilcott, who used to travel around with Mattys parents) and Elizabeth Smith (dau of Lol White and Lavinia Smith) She wasnt the widow of Joshua Taylor, but Joshua Cooper, but because she reverted to her maiden name which we all know are interchangable anyway with our gypsy ancestors, this is where you are all getting confused. There are some bits about Sam Smith and Athaliah being the widow of Joshua Cooper in Charles Godfrey Lelands papers, if i can find the right pieces will post them.
The Sam Cooper and Annie Shepherd you are talking about are my grandfather Tom Coopers brother and sister in law. Their father was Samuel Cooper, son of Matty and therefore brother of Joshua Cooper.
another clue but i must stress we dont know the answers this is why i have chosen this hunt this week!!!!!!!!!!
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Cathay is this Atherlia related to them then?
Marriage Mar 1916
Atherlia Taylor to Edward Guest in W Ham
Vol 4a Page 479
Sue
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Okay
Thi is sooooooooooooooooo confusing
I have found an Athalon? Taylor aged 43 Licensed hawker b NK lodging with a John Goulson also Lic. hawker in Middlesex ...down the'road' is Christopher Taylor, 50 hawker of fruit and his family. (err hawker of fruit not his family LOL!!)
So Athalia was born a TAYLOR, married Joshua COOPER , then Sam SMITH.... Jabez was born a SMITH but reverted back to his mother's maiden name TAYLOR...............
Is this CORRECT??????????????
deb
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8) I might just spectate at the mo..... ::)
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i think your right debs and you might well be onto something now!
janjo to be honest i dont know but i hope so cause the guests are in my family aswell.here it gets complicated debs christopher penfold married patience guest!!!!i wonder if theres going to be a taylor link now with guests,taylors and penfolds?
(we have got a devon penfold marriage to a windsor cooper already)this is very interseting though very confusing i agree.
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lesanne!!!!dont be chicken :-\jump in and have a go :D
its designed to get the brains to have one last exercise before the chritmas rush really starts. ;D ;D ;D ;D ::)
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Cathay
Are you sure Athlelia Taylor married Joshua Cooper ...do you have marriage cert?
deb
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i will go and check my certs.!!if only i had put them in alphbetical order!!!!no i am not certain at all but somewhee theres a cencus with her with him.i will golook to see ifi got it.i know night owl has some i dont know if shes got that one.okay i will go route around see what i can find out.
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i remember now we dont have a cert.and we are wondering if joshua is really jabez?i will still go and route i think we have now hit one of the brick walls that the rest of us have hit in the past.
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Sam Smith was always known on the roads as Fighting Sam. Years have
passed, and when I have asked after him I have always heard that he was
either in prison or had just been let out. Once it happened that, during
a fight with a Gorgio, the Gorgio's watch disappeared, and Sam was
arrested under suspicion of having got up the fight in order that the
watch might disappear. All of his friends declared his innocence. The
next trouble was for _chorin a gry_, or stealing a horse, and so was the
next, and so on. As horse-stealing is not a crime, but only "rough
gambling," on the roads, nobody defended him on these counts. He was, so
far as this went, only a sporting character. When his wife died he
married Athalia, the widow of Joshua Cooper, a gypsy, of whom I shall
speak anon. I always liked Sam. Among the travelers, he was always
spoken of as genteel, owing to the fact, that whatever the state of his
wardrobe might be, he always wore about his neck an immaculate white
woolen scarf, and on _jours de fete_, such as horse-races, sported a
_boro stardi_, or chimney-pot hat. O my friend, Colonel Dash, of the
club! Change but the name, this fable is of thee!
-
no she def married joshua cooper mathias cooper(of the windsor coopers)son. above taken from a book no longer copywright!kindly posted by smileyface.
smiley face is sure about all this and as she is an excellant researcer i dont think she would have said so unless she was sure.she might have a cert i dont know.i have invited her to join in the hunt.
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ooo Like that ..sam sounds like a good guy ...
I asked because I found this ...Not sure of it though ..these two people are on same page for a marriage;
Athaliah Cooper dec q 1850 Wolstanton Staffs
Abraham Smith dec q 1850 Wolstanton Staffs
:-\
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Cathay
How do Althelia Taylor/Cooper/Smith etc fit with Reuben Bird?
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i think she has a bird grand son
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ooo Cathay
in the 1881 where we have Reuben and Abigail (Horn) BIRD living in tents in Mitcham Suirrey we have reuben's son Henry b Worth on the next page ...as has been said before ...BUT travelling with them is a SAMUEL SMITH, 40 b Acton Middlesex hawker and his wife Priscilla and kids...do you think this is your sam Smith = Athelia Cooper?
I am at a loss as we have no idea when/where they were all born...arrgghhhhhh
deb 8)
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yes i reckon thats him cause his wife priscilla died before he married athelia.yippee.i think you ve got it
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Oh...... Well done Deb, getting somewhere at last :D :D :D :D
Sue
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it would have been helpful if you posted all that you knew on page 1
and noted any that was hearsay
as going to check for a marriage for Abigails parents but can't find my borrowed SMI aaarrrggggghhhhhh
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unfortunately i didnt know anything for sure on page one!this is all new stuff coming in for me now.because my tree is quite large i know bits but have never been able to tie this lot together in anyway.i only found out about sam smith tonight!!!its all god news coming in now.i reckon me and a few other researchers should be able to get this sorted soon.
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Hi ya!
Iam lost!
I have the Bird Family in the 1881 [that was very helpful]- but I don't know who I am looking for now? :-[
Best!
Grant.
Australia.
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Hi Grant in Australia
This is Deb in USA :) Welcome to Rootschat , we hope you have fun! err i am at a bit of a standstill as I have just finished dinner and am a bit stumped as to who to look for ...well not who to look for but where to look for them ...are you related to anyone on this search ?
deb ...fumbling around 8)
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nice to see you here grant.its a good scavenger hunt.unfortunately i think we are mostly going to bed now.folks will post more help for you here in the morning as to how to go about things.there are other new folk on here joined this time so you wont be alone?did you see your bakers surname stopping with some other travellers on here?
it would be good if we could find samuel smith again either with priscilla his first wife and then with athelia taylor.we need to know the children and then who the kids married?
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he maybe.we did find some bakers back along on this hunt but didnt take any notce of them as they were stopping with the ones we were loking for.grants bakers have been found in wiltshire and i have just one baker in my tree.whether they will connect is doubtful but grant really needs some help with his lot so i suggested he look on this hunt and see if he can see if the baker might be his or not and also learn abit about how we do it all.hes really interested in his romany forbears and hungry for any knowledge he can get.i got go to bed as i am whacked out.see ya tomorrow.love ya cousin. cathay
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1901
Gillingham
In tent
Back of Balmorral rd
Abigial BIRD head wid 62 hawker/ own account b not known
John son 26 single
francis dau single 21
Joe Fuggles 10
Joseph Russell 20
Mary Eastwood 20
Mary Eastman 17
all born Not known
travelling with them in caravans are
The LEE Family ...headed by Walter Lee 62 hawker
The JEFFREY Family ..headed by John 35 travelling showman b Wiltshire, Devizes
The BAKER Family ...headed by Thomas 29 travelling showman n NK
SMALL Family ... head Henry 33 hawker b NK
PERFECT family head Henry 33 hawker b NK
2 more LEE Families;
Head Ambrose 21 hawker b Kent Charham
heres the mention of the baker tribe if you want to folow it up grant.whose his wife?what are the kids called.travellers often stop with family or good friends.one of them may marry into the family as we go on or possibly the wife is a child of the bird family.who knows til we check it out.you will have to work backwords though as thats the last cencus available as yet!!!!
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CATHAY ...wait before you go to bed ....
You mentioned that Athelia and joseph Cooper have been spotted on a census .... where and when please ...I cannot see Sam Smith amd Priscilla in 1871 nor can I see him with Athelia in 1891 or 1901 ....
Need some help here
deb ...pulling hair out!!!!! ;D :D
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well for a start his names joshua?and i think she married cooper first and he died young so then she married sam smith.i cant find the cencus either.but i do know someone thought she was athelia lee before she married smith when infact she was a taylor and i know she had a son william with joshua cooper.the troble now is the family had a big bust up and you will find them using the names cooper smith and taylor!!!!thta is where we are really having the trouble sorting out whose who?????its our brick wall.thats why its so difficult.been driving a lot of us mad for ages.
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I am still trying to wade my way through the Taylors. A picture is emerging.
I know that Joshua Cooper is the son of Mathias Cooper but I have to find him on a blasted Census!
Also I think he is the Joshua Taylor that is hooked up with Atherlia but its proving it.
Atherlia had Cinderella in 1868 no father but she was a Taylor.
Bella Smith was to a Samuel and a Athalia in 1879 Walton on Thames. Was this our Athalia I ask myself.
Another name that is interwoven with our families are the Tower's and yet so far no one has ever mentioned them
Carol
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ooo okay ..good to have more names ...wish we had dates and places though ...I have seen a BELLA Smith ...eeeekkkk but where?
okay so now we may have Atheliah under the name Taylor/Cooper/Smith or LEE ...Blimey!!!!
will have a look around ..I don't even know what census to begin with
deb :)
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totally off topic ...
while looking for cinderella b 1868 found this poor girl who dad was a collector of bad debts LOL;
Anna Maria Matilda Sophia Juliana Georgiana Lucretia Cinderella Martine Augusta Colgreave :o :o Blimey
-
Hi
okay ...
1891
Christopher HEARNE horsekeeper/groom b Hammersmith
Selina wife 24 laundress b Kingston Surrey
Christopher son 2 b kensington
edie dau 7 months b ditto
ISABELLA SMITH sis-in-law 13 b WALTON ON THAMES
is this Sam and Atheliah's daughter Bella Smith?
deb
found Christopher and selina Hearn (no e) on 1901 ...no sign of Isabella in 1901 or 1881 ...
added ...Could Selina be Selina Cooper d/o Atheliah and Joshua cooper ..can't find the marriage yet to christopher hearne/hearn/herne etc etc /....
There was a Selina d/o Athelia and Joshua Cooper ..If isabella/Bella Smoith is also dau of Athelia then they would be half sisters ..Blimey
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yes i know the hearns come into it and i do belive chiverall if you know her has that isabel smith in her tree.i will contact her in a minute and ask.cathay
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RE: Cooper/Taylor/ Parker families
Nov 23 2008, 6:24 PM EST
Hello Carol have tried to post to you direct but seems to be a problem. There are to trains of thought over who sarah who married jerimiah was some researchers believe her to have been a blackwell others a fisher I personally believe she was a fisher based on research carried out and information gathered by a taylor descendant. After Jerimiah was killed in the fight on wimbledon common in 1831 sarah and the children went into the workhouse they do not appear again, at least I havent found them, until 1851 census when sarah was with some of the family in notting dale two years later she was killed in hartlake disaster, her son Plato married Betsy Webb in the church at Hadlow in 1848, the same church she is buried in. Plato Taylor is buried in a grave belonging to his son in law Noah Parker. Ann daughter of Jerimiah/Sarah married Henry Shepherd. Alice another daughter married Meshack Hearne they had a daughter Virgin, article about her appears on romanygenes. My gt gt grandfather joseph born c. 1820 married Henrietta Francis Ayres in 1871 at kensal road this occured around the time of the census and several Taylors are gathered including Augusta wife of Jerimiah/Sarahs son Jerimiah only she is now calling herself a Light no sign of Jerimiah and all the childrens surname is changed to Light or was it Jerimiah using another name?
Quote & reply Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable?
horsesmad RE: Cooper/Taylor/ Parker families
Today, 4:22 AM EST
hi all
my ggg grandfather is plato taylor,i come down through his daughter annie taylor born 1861 claygate.i believe the taylors and coopers are related but have not yet worked out how.i think that daniel taylor who is with henrietta and noah is also daniel cooper,i once heard that his parents broke up and the children went by cooper and taylor at certain times in their lives.
on the census it states that daniel is a cousin, we all asume to henrietta through name but could the connection be to noah?
also if athelia taylor was married to joshua taylor, and arthelia was already a taylor they also must have been related.
in 1891 noah and henrietta were camped on epsom downs along side them was henriettas sister annie and her husband job, they should have been lawrence but for twenty years changed there surname to castle.also camped on epsom downs were, coopers,smiths,matthews,parkers,taylors and eastwoods.
annie taylor,daughter of plato had a son called noah,noah married delilah dicksy(dixie} on there marriage cert one of the witness was a rhoda cooper,so again i think there is a cooper taylor connection.
the taylors are also related to the simpsons as platos daughter lydia taylor married henry simpson.
hope all of this sort of makes sense
Quote & reply Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable?
looking4taylors
looking4taylors RE: Cooper/Taylor/ Parker families
Today, 4:54 AM EST
I've got the link in my Taylor's back to Jeremiah,My Dad was William,son of Walter,who was son of Henry,who was son of Joseph,who was the son of Jeremiah and Sara, with links to Ayres ,Thomas,Turners,Bushnall's,Matthews,Sedgwicks,Rowe,Guest ,Castle,Smith's and god know who
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Hi Cathay,
Just to let you know I am following you but have nothing to offer. I've searched the census returns and feeling a little ???
Best!
Grant.
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How are we going with the challenge folks? :)
Grant
Australia.
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just lost all i was posting.its coming on grant.if you like we will do a baker scavenger hunt in the future just for you.if your interested let me know and i will tell you how to contact tephra to put your name down.you have rather been thrown in at the deep end so dont feel bad.this is a particularly difficult hunt that we are doing this week as its been hanging around for ags in bits and pices.these are expert and really experienced researchers doing this and if there is anything to be found they will find it.i am sure they could manage a family line of bakers for you in the furure.there are other folk just watching this hunt aswell so dont feel alone.you doing great.its good to have you join us.
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Thanks for that Cathay!
My Bakers are tight back to 1796 and we have another record of them in the same parish- Bishopstone as "Travellers" in 1775 so this is all nice and early. And as you know they were associated with later Rom family's in the 1850's. It's my Potter's that need work. Thank's for the kind offer.
Grant. ;)
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oh thats great.i would love to do the potters in the future on a hunt as they figure in my tree abit too.shall we do a hunt grant?let me know?cathaqyb
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I'm still observing, and learning from the experts. :)
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what a handsome fella he is.nice your still here.hope to see you on other hunts.if your family are travellers you will enjoy the travellers pages.you will find ref to them in the common room.take a look its very interesting.if they are not try lookingin your county for likely names.sorry grant i called you stu!!!!!!i had a senior moment!!!!!happens more and more these days!!!
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Hi All,
Not sure what im looking for so sorry if you already have this ;D
1871 RG10 / 1833 / 114 / 17
Elias Turner head age 32 b Norfolk
Louisa wife age 36 b Suffolk
Elias son age 25 b Suffolk ???
Emily dau age 12 b Suffolk
James son age 10 b Suffolk
Priscilla dau age 8 b Suffolk
Robert son age 6 b Suffolk
Address Caravan, Needham
Oh Deb and Cathay...... Where are you? Have we got this?
Living in caravan next to them is Alice Bird age 43 and her children ???
Sue
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Morning all
I must admit that i am a little lost ....
anyway ...
in 1881 I have found Mathias Cooper,wid, hawker b Cheltenham, Glos with his son, Alfred (hawker, 21, b epsom Surrey), they are with a Smith family(John and Caroline + kids) ..next door to them another Smith Family ...Caleb and Charity and kids. They are in Brighton.
.........................................................................................................................................
1871
Egham
Caravans
Matthias Cooper head wid 58 pedlar b NK
Prin son 14 b Surrey
Whackadol dau 10 b epsom ...what a name!
/
Thomas Cooper head 36 horsedealer b Chertsey
and family
/
Nelson Cooper head 38 pedlar b Frimley Surrey
and family
RG10/1297 42 47
No sign of Joshua Cooper
...............................................................................................................................
1861
RG9/26 140 54
Hammersmith
Covered cart & tent
Jeremiah Taylor head mar 47 basket maker b Herts, Watford
Augusta wife 44 b High wycombe , Bucks
ATHALIAH TAYLOR dau 19 b Mousely Surrey
Mininney dau b kent
Christopher son 6 b Surrey wandsworth
Eda dau 3 b Kensington
Georgiana dau 2 b hammersmith
/
Richard and Lucy Franklin
and family
/
Shadrack and Mary Herne
and family
/
William and sarah Roberts
and family
/
William and Charlotte Roberts
and family
/
Zachariah and Justinia Boswell
and family
/
Levi and mary Ann Boswell and family
/
Hannah Cooper
and family
/
Henry and Catherine allen
/
Soloman and Lucy Herne
and gr dau Lucy
deb
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yes youve got the right families there debs.we do have those.theres quite a story to why whakodolll is called that name!!!!just look at the travellers names that are involved with this lot?its no wonder we have got confused trying to work out all the family connections.i really hope some of the other researchers into this family come on board tonight else we are not going to be able to go much further its a pig of a hunt isnt it?the brazils come into somewhere aswell.i will contact some of them again and tell them to stop christmas shopping and come on board here quickly.
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jamjo.i am sorry but i dont think so birds are ours.i think its the wrong area.but who knows with this flippen lot.
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Cathay
Woder if this is your Athaliah = Joshua Cooper and Sam Smith?
IGI
Children of Jeremiah and Augusta Taylor
*Mezalia Taylor
born 7 DEC 1847
chr 2 APR 1848, Chiswick, London
* ATHALIAH TAYLOR
26 JUN 1842 Long Ditton And Tolworth, Surrey
* William Taylor
12 JAN 1840 Bushey, Hertford
deb
Hi Sue :)
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yep thats her definately and two kids i didnt have for jermiah and his wife.thanks.two more for the tree.unless mezilia is later known as minnie in which case i have already got her!!!!
so when she married joshua cooper and had a son and called him william it may have been called after her brother william!umm nice one!thanks
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No idea whether these people are anything to do with you - I confess to being hopelessly confused ??? :D
Jan ;)
1881
High Road Gipseys Tent Chipstead Surrey
Uriah Cooper Head Mar 70 Travelling Gipsey Surrey Blackheath
Margaret do Wife 40 Blackheath
Eliza do 18 b Surrey Shirley
Cinderella do 16 Epsom
Henry do 12 do
John do 6 Kent Paddockwood
Constantina do 4 do
Levindia do 11wks Surrey Banstead
RG11/800/66 Pg29
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Hi Janan :)
me too...going round in circles LOL
Cathay; You said that Athaliah Taylor(Cooper/Smith) died in 1902 ...do you have the death cert? If so who registered the death?
deb
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yes janan they are to do with us but not in this part of the family i hope not anyway or it will get even more comlicated.cinderella does end up marrying someone in this lot but i think we should forget her for now.
i dont have deathe cert but i have photo of grave and dates of internemt.will look them out and post in a minute.
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can post photo sorry.will post ranscription rom graveyard in a min
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cant post photo sorry.will post ranscription rom graveyard in a min
The Grave is in Acton Cemetery
on Park Royal Road
The grave stone reads as follows
In loving memory
of
Atherlia Taylor
who died 25th June 1902
aged 64 years
also of my dear Wife
Emily Taylor
who passed away
2nd november 1953
aged 72 years
also of Jabez Taylor
Husband of the above
who passed away
11th Feb 1965
aged 86 years
i am copying and pasting this from the other search over in travellers in the general room.as we are all there looking aswell until a few days ago i dont think anyone will mind as we all want the truth of them!
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Atherlias Death Cert States
Died at 46 Osbourne Road, Acton
Widow of Joshua Taylor
Selina Hearn, Daughter, present at death, of 18 May place Notting Hill
Selinas Marridge Cert, 1890 Maiden name Taylor, Father Joshua
Married in Fullam
Whitness Gentila Taylor and John Goodsell
1891 Census for Selina Hearn
149 Stanns Road London
With Husband Christopher as Head
Isobel Smith aged 13 Single, Sister in law
( with makes Isobel Selinas Sister)
So there is a Smith connection
Was she married Twice, or more
Whats the chance of being born a Taylor, and meeting someone
with the same surname, I surpose it must happen
I have Jabez with 2 Sisters, Selina and Isobel
Still no Birth Certs can be found
And thats where I am at the moment
any info would be much Help
Thanks to all that have Posted and Helped me get this far
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we have gone on from this last post but i put it in so you can see where the hearns come in.we now know for sure athliia was a taylor,she married first joshua cooper and then sam smith.there are kids from both marriages!but they interchanged the names like tomorrow as you are seeing!!!!!
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personally but not proved in anyway as far as i know i think jabez was a smith son of not a taylor or a cooper.i think he took his mothers maiden name over the family feud that occurred.!!!!?
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i will go and check my certs.!!if only i had put them in alphbetical order!!!!no i am not certain at all but somewhee theres a cencus with her with him.i will golook to see ifi got it.i know night owl has some i dont know if shes got that one.okay i will go route around see what i can find out.
Charles Godfrey Leland who called Matty cooper his 'professor' as Matty taught him Romany.... Well Charles states in his book The Gypsies:_
Sam Smith was always known on the roads as Fighting Sam. Years have
passed, and when I have asked after him I have always heard that he was
either in prison or had just been let out. Once it happened that, during
a fight with a Gorgio, the Gorgio's watch disappeared, and Sam was
arrested under suspicion of having got up the fight in order that the
watch might disappear. All of his friends declared his innocence. The
next trouble was for _chorin a gry_, or stealing a horse, and so was the
next, and so on. As horse-stealing is not a crime, but only "rough
gambling," on the roads, nobody defended him on these counts. He was, so
far as this went, only a sporting character. When his wife died he
married Athalia, the widow of Joshua Cooper, a gypsy,of whom I shall
speak anon. I always liked Sam. Among the travelers, he was always
spoken of as genteel, owing to the fact, that whatever the state of his
wardrobe might be, he always wore about his neck an immaculate white
woolen scarf, and on _jours de fete_, such as horse-races, sported a
_boro stardi_, or chimney-pot hat. O my friend, Colonel Dash, of the
club! Change but the name, this fable is of thee!
"There's to be a _walgoro_, _kaliko i sala_--a fair to-morrow morning, at
Cobham," said Sam, as he departed.
"All right. We'll be there."
As we approached the cock-shy, where sticks were cast at cocoa-nuts, a
young gypsy _chai_, whom I learned to know in after-days as Athalia
Cooper, asked me to buy some sticks. A penny a throw, all the cocoa-nuts
I could hit to be my own. I declined; she became urgent, jolly, riotous,
insistive. I endured it well, for I held the winning cards. _Qui minus
propere_, _minus prospere_. And then, as her voice rose _crescendo_ into
a bawl, so that all the Romanys around laughed aloud to see the green
Gorgio so chaffed and bothered, I bent me low, and whispered softly in
her ear a single monosyllable.
Why are all those sticks dropped so suddenly? Why does Athalia in a
second become sober, and stand up staring at me, all her chaff and
urgency forgotten. Quite polite and earnest now. But there is joy
behind in her heart. This _is_ a game, a jolly game, and no mistake.
And uplifting her voice again, as the voice of one who findeth an
exceeding great treasure even in the wilderness, she cried aloud,--"_It's
a Romany rye_!"
The spiciest and saltest and rosiest of Sir Patrick's own stories, told
after dinner over his own old port to a special conventicle of clergymen
about town, was never received with such a roar of delight as that cry of
Athalia's was by the Romany clan. Up went three sheers at the find;
further afield went the shout proclaiming the discovery of an
aristocratic stranger of their race, a _rye_, who was to them as
wheat,--a gypsy gentleman. Neglecting business, they threw down their
sticks, and left their cocoanuts to grin in solitude; the _dyes_ turned
aside from fortune-telling to see what strange fortune had sent such a
visitor. In ten minutes Sir Patrick and I were surrounded by such a
circle of sudden admirers and vehement applauders, as it seldom happens
to any mortal to acquire--out of Ireland--at such exceedingly short
notice and on such easy terms.
They were not particular as to what sort of a gypsy I was, or where I
came from, or any nonsense of that sort, you know. It was about
_cerevisia vincit omnia_, or the beery time of day with them, and they
cared not for anything. I was extremely welcome; in short, there was
poetry in me. I had come down on them by a way that was dark and a trick
that was vain, in the path of mystery, and dropped on Athalia and picked
her up. It was gypsily done and very creditable to me, and even Sir
Patrick was regarded as one to be honored as an accomplice. It is a
charming novelty in every life to have the better class of one's own kind
come into it, and nobody feels so keenly as a jolly Romany that _jucundum
nihil est nisi quod ref icit varietas_--naught pleases us without
variety.
Then and there I drew to me the first threads of what became in
after-days a strange and varied skein of humanity. There was the Thames
upon a holiday. Now I look back to it, I ask, _Ubi sunt_? (Where are
they all?) Joshua Cooper, as good and earnest a Rom as ever lived, in
his grave, with more than one of those who made my acquaintance by
hurrahing for me. Some in America, some wandering wide. Yet there by
Weybridge still the Thames runs on.
As Charles knew these Coopers extremely well, better than any other, i really wouldnt doubt his words
-
By the way Cathay, the Smiths with Matty in 1881 are his daughter in law Patience Cooper nee Smith (wife of his son Samuel and my gt grandparents) family. George and Mary Ann Smith are Patiences parents, Caleb is Georges half brother, and John Smith is Georges son. They dont tie in with Sam Smiths family. George etc, are Brighton Smiths and travelled around Sussex, Kent and Surrey, but mainly stayed in houses in Brighton and the surrounds.
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Hi Smileyface :)
Thanks for that ..It gave me goosebumps .
When was the book published/written?
deb
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oh thank goodness your here smileyface.i was trying to cope on me own and i have emailed evryone concerned with this family and no one seems to be respondingyet?i am glad you have.waiting for nightowl and irene and chiverall now.i dont know johns email cause i bet hed be interested to?trouble is theres so many doing the taylor lot arent there?
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errrr... where do we go from here?
deb 8)
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1882 debs. As Cooper descendents probably know, Leland wrote many books about gypsies, and he and Matty were very close. Leland wrote about many of Mattys relations in his books and diaries. I am sure somewhere i have some notes of lelands where he mentions joshua in letters written to Genty, Mattys sister, so will give some idea of when Joshua died.
Betty x
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oh thank goodness your here smileyface.i was trying to cope on me own and i have emailed evryone concerned with this family and no one seems to be respondingyet?i am glad you have.waiting for nightowl and irene and chiverall now.i dont know johns email cause i bet hed be interested to?trouble is theres so many doing the taylor lot arent there?
sorry cathay, wont be here for much longer as taking Dad and Kate to panto. Saw your email and responded. I had already written the stuff on the taylorsmith post in the traveller forum last night after irene asked for help. Son will be here, but he wont be much help! love betty xx
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Im still here as well but like you Deb i just dont know what we are looking for now ;D
Any chance of an update of what we still need to find please :D
Or names of who we still need :) Lots of days left for this hunt yet Cathay :D :D
Sue
-
well so your all not mad at me at the hunt i have posted then?i thought i may have to hide under the table for a few days!!!!
i would really like to know about the smith family with isabel etc.,.eek smiths most folk run a mile when i say that!!!!cause emma taylor married edward smith (well they may not have been married but they had kids together)she married later a kefford!!!and she lived in tottedown old school yard.you may remeber he from my other hunt!!!!but i still want rosie smiths emma taylors daughters birth details so that we can get a cert for her.
what i am thinking is if emma taylor was with a edward smith and athelia taylor was with sam a smith is there a connection?and i hate to say it but i thnk williams and millers may come into it soon aswell!!!shall i run now and hide?come out again next week?
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Okay
so we have Joshua Cooper s/o Mathias Cooper
Joshua Cooper = Atheliah Taylor ... they have Jabez (who marries Emily Dunn)is this correct?
Athelia Taylor bc 1842, Surrey has Cinderella Taylor circa 1868
Atheliah then marries Joshua Cooper and has Selina (who marries Christopher Herne/hearne)
Joshua dies
Atheliah Taylor Cooper then marries Sam Smith (who's 1st wife was Priscilla) and they have Isabella/Bella Smith born walton on thames .... she is half sister to Selina Herne nee Cooper.
Athelia dies 1902 in Brentwood
her death registration states Atherlia Taylor .... no mention of her being wife of sam Smith
another thought
according to 1891 census Selina HERNE nee TAYLOR or Cooper says she is 24 = bc 1867
Isabella/Bella SMITH is 13 = bc 1878
then Cathay said that Athelia had a Cinderella TAYLOR (no dad) bc 1868
so this is confusing as Selina is d/o Athelia and Joshua COOPER ...but she marries as a Taylor ...could Selina be Cinderella . Cinderella is born out of wedlock, but Atheliah is having Selina the following year with Joshua COOPER...
do I make sense?
Did selina marry under Cooper or taylor?
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Okay
yep
Selina Taylor = Christopher Hearn 1890
if she was Joshua COOPER's Daughter why marry as Selina TAYLOR?
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Any dates for your Smith family/families Cathay please :D
Sue
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Oh just seen your post Deb ;D ;D Thanks :)
Sue
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Hi sue
How did we go from Horn and Bird to Coopers/Taylors/Smiths ?
:D ;D
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Dont know Deb, i was still on Birds a couple of posts back ;D ;D ;D
Right lets see what we can find and show Cathay we wont be beaten :D :D :D :D :D
Sue
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no dates for smith.sorry
no athelia and joshua did nt have jabez as far as i am concerned i think they only had william.i think jabez belongs to sam smith and athelia!!!!
cinderella i think is uriahs daughter and not connected with this search!!!!!
i am not sure who selinia belongs too?as yet
and a bird is the surname of one of athlias grandchildren!!!!so the birds come in again in a minute but as we done their tree at the start we should be able to tie them in quite easily.(i hope)
unless we can find something that says otherwise i fully believe only william was born to joshua and athlia.
i think jabez was a smith but changed to his mothers maiden name taylor.he says on his marriage cert his dad is john smith but that is a lie.it was sam!!!!
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the thing to keep hold of is they kept changing their names from taylor to cooper to smith to taylor again
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Ok have you got this Cathay :) Is this your Selina/
1901 in Kensington RG13 / 25 /21 / 34
Christopher Hearn head age 38 b Kensington, occ looks like horsekeeper
Selina wife age 36 b Kensington
Edith dau age 10 b Kensington
Alfred son age 8 b Kensington
Hammondine son age 3 b Kensington
Sue
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if we could just find Atheliah with her kids or a husband ....
If Selina was bc 1867/8 d/o Athelia and Joseph joshua COOPER where is she on the 1871/81 ..we have her in 1891 and 1901 married to Christopher Hearn/e
Isabella/Bella SMITH 1878 Walton on Thames d/o Athelia and Sam SMITH
we have her on 1891 with half sis Selina
where is she in 1881 and 1901
Cinderella Taylor ... d/o Athelia
When was William the son born ?
deb
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i reckon so?if you want something to do you could check for them in another cencus.
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Cathay ... Blimey they are nowhere to be found :o :(
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Is this anything to do with them?
1871 RG10 / 72 / 42 / 8
John Verrer head age 44 b Cambridgeshire, occ lab
Selina wife age 34 b Dorset
Orlando Bird son age 11 b Middlesex
Esau Bird son age 10 b Middlesex
Selina Bird dau age 7 b Middlesex
Address Back of Stamford Street, Fulham
Sue
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Deb.... As Cathay dont have access to census can you have a look at this lot please and tell me
if we have these already. There are pages of families in caravans and tents :D
1871 RG10 / 1631 / 79 / 32
Sue
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tell me pleaswe as i have no idea where you have got hold of cinderella?i dont think shes anything to do with this family!!!!!
i am also wondering where joseph comes into this?IT IS JOSHUA COOPER she was first married too!
he died VERY YOUNG AND THEY ONLY HAD ONE CHILD WILLIAM who we are not concerned with at this time!
have you already been at the christmas plonk???? :D :D :D :D :( :-\
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Sue
It looks like it was a big meeting place ... not sure if they are related but must tie in somewhere
cathay .... I thoughtv Althelia had Selina as well ... selina married Christopher Hearne , she is half sister to Bella Smith (d/o Athelia and SAM SMITH)
I will find the mention of Cinderella ...
i feel like I need to be on the plonk ...going rou8nd in circles ...LOL
deb :)
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I am still trying to wade my way through the Taylors. A picture is emerging.
I know that Joshua Cooper is the son of Mathias Cooper but I have to find him on a blasted Census!
Also I think he is the Joshua Taylor that is hooked up with Atherlia but its proving it.
Atherlia had Cinderella in 1868 no father but she was a Taylor.
Bella Smith was to a Samuel and a Athalia in 1879 Walton on Thames. Was this our Athalia I ask myself.
Another name that is interwoven with our families are the Tower's and yet so far no one has ever mentioned them
Carol
cathay ... LOL ...there's Cinderella or is she meant to be SELINA?
:D
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. 1891 Census, RG12-541-97-21 Plumstead, London.
"Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation
James Penfold 21 Northfleet, Kent, England Head Swing Proprietor
Ada Penfold 22 Snodland, Kent, England Wife
Ada Penfold 2 Snodland, Kent, England Daughter
Willie Penfold 11 Mths Snodland, Kent, England Son
Jessie Woodyer 18 Snodland, Kent, England Sister-in-law
4 Caravan, Field, Timber Croft Lane, With John & Eliza Dighton, Samson & Sarah A Nicholls, William & Emma Cooper, William & Naomi Johnson.
right here is william if anyone cares to look up the cencus.that is william cooper son of joshua and athelia.look him up by all means and then for get him!!!!!i will post athelias kids in a minute.try not too get to excited about the penfolds there aswell debs.i know they are there but ignore them for now.okay?coopers are only there with penfolds cause our dear finance i thinkk it was the devon penfld married one of williams cousins.no you must leave that alone.we will do them another time.let me go search for athelias kids and dates.
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re last quote from debs!that was what i copied and pasted from carol or nightowl as she is called so i cant vouch for it.i am hoping she comes on i have emailed her.cathay
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Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation
Jeremiah Taylor 47 Watford, Hertfordshire, Head Basket Maker
Augusta Taylor 44 High Wycombe, Buck's Wife
Athaliah Taylor 19 Moulsey, Surrey, England Daughter
Mininny Taylor 10 Toodley Nr Headhne, Kent Daughter Schol
Christopher Taylor 6 Wandsworth, Surrey Son
Eda Taylor 3 Kensington, Middlesex Daughter
Georgiana Taylor 2 Hammersmith, Middlesex Daughter
Waste land on the West Side of Latimer Road called the Gipsies encampment, Coverd Cart & Tent's, Camped with Shadrach & Mary Herne, Richard & Lucy Franklin, William & Sarah Roberts, William & Charlotte Roberts, Zacariah & Justina Boswell, Levi & Mary A Boswell, Henry & Patience Allen, Solomon & Mercy Herne, Hannah Cooper, & others
right start at the beginning this is athelias perants!!!!!!!!!!!
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right me being everso clever and not adding any names to my tree til they are proved cannot find any kids for atheilia and sam?so we will have to search for them!
i will now go see where selinia comes from
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Okay
Thi is sooooooooooooooooo confusing
I have found an Athalon? Taylor aged 43 Licensed hawker b NK lodging with a John Goulson also Lic. hawker in Middlesex ...down the'road' is Christopher Taylor, 50 hawker of fruit and his family. (err hawker of fruit not his family LOL!!)
just realised with your last post that this may be Athelia's brother Christopher!!!!!
1901
48 Osborne rd, Acton
Christopher taylor head mar 50 hawker of fruit b Wandsworth Surrey
Sarah wife 44 b Middlesex
Caroline dau 12 b acton Middlesex
Albert son 8 b Ditto
Lydia dau 6 months b Ditto
This must be your Athelia as she is at 46 Osborne Rd .... with John Goulson
she died there:
quote:
Atherlias Death Cert States
Died at 46 Osbourne Road, Acton
Widow of Joshua Taylor
Selina Hearn, Daughter, present at death, of 18 May place Notting Hill
woohooooo so we have her on the 1901 census living near her brother Christopher !!!!
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right it looks like selina is athelias daughter. but not cinderella(give up on her please )
it also looks like joshua was born 1842 and was 20 years younger than his brother plato so maybe he will be with his perants matthias and eliza in the 1851 cencus?
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Atherlias Death Cert States
Died at 46 Osbourne Road, Acton
Widow of Joshua Taylor
Selina Hearn, Daughter, present at death, of 18 May place Notting Hill
Selinas Marridge Cert, 1890 Maiden name Taylor, Father Joshua
Married in Fullam
Whitness Gentila Taylor and John Goodsell
1891 Census for Selina Hearn
149 Stanns Road London
With Husband Christopher as Head
Isobel Smith aged 13 Single, Sister in law
( with makes Isobel Selinas Sister)
So there is a Smith connection
Was she married Twice, or more
Whats the chance of being born a Taylor, and meeting someone
with the same surname, I surpose it must happen
I have Jabez with 2 Sisters, Selina and Isobel
Still no Birth Certs can be found
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yes we are getting there.by this time smith and taylor had had a big big fallout.so the selinia and jabez who are both really smiths are using their mothers maiden name!!!!!
so athelia had william with joshua cooper
athelia had at least selinia and jabez with sam unless because sams first wife has died she has them as step daughters?
priscilla smith and sam smith can we find them and find out which kids are sames that might now be living with atherlia.
and dont forget her bird grandson?thatt means another daughter married the bird man dosnt it?
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Cathay
yesterday I wrote this;
in the 1881 where we have Reuben and Abigail (Horn) BIRD living in tents in Mitcham Suirrey we have reuben's son Henry b Worth on the next page ...as has been said before ...BUT travelling with them is a SAMUEL SMITH, 40 b Acton Middlesex hawker and his wife Priscilla and kids...do you think this is your sam Smith = Athelia Cooper?
I will look them up again
deb
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1881
Mitcham Commons
tents
samuel Smith head mar 40 Hawker b Acton
Priscilla wife 30 b Northamptonshire
James son 9 b Wood street, essex
Frederick Scott son unm 18 basket maker b Bow Middlesex
I have looked for them on other censuses but have not spotted them yet!
deb
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Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
But looking at his website it may well be another Bird group of families.
So the BIRD grandson, belongs to an Athelia who was b 1903?
deb :-\
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I cant find any of them Deb ???
Sue
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Me neither Sue ...wonder why Frederick Scott had different surname than James .... wonder if he was Priscilla's child? Also big difference in age between Fred Scott and James Smith...
found the link to the thread cathay was talking about ... I think we should read in case we are repeating stuff ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,294162.0.html
deb :)
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sorry i had to visit my web site and answer a few things!
yes that is our sam smith!
no the grandson does not belong to athelia b.1903 he belongs to our athlia born 1842.
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i would leave fred scott out of it if i was you?he does figure in it but you will just open another can of worms and bring shepherds ninto it aswell along with quite a few others!!!!!
we got enough trouble with what we got here now.
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Athaliah Taylor married Joshua Cooper, Matty Coopers son. They had two children that i know of, William Cooper and Selina Cooper. Joshua died young and then Athaliah 'married' Sam Smith, son of Perron Smith (he being son of Elijah Smith and Sophia Chilcott, who used to travel around with Mattys parents) and Elizabeth Smith (dau of Lol White and Lavinia Smith) She wasnt the widow of Joshua Taylor, but Joshua Cooper, but because she reverted to her maiden name which we all know are interchangable anyway with our gypsy ancestors, this is where you are all getting confused. There are some bits about Sam Smith and Athaliah being the widow of Joshua Cooper in Charles Godfrey Lelands papers, if i can find the right pieces will post them.
The Sam Cooper and Annie Shepherd you are talking about are my grandfather Tom Coopers brother and sister in law. Their father was Samuel Cooper, son of Matty and therefore brother of Joshua Cooper.
we areb there folks we got the connection!!!!watch next post!!!
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ooo Okay cathay ... sounds scary when you put it like that ... :o :o :o LOL ;D
i would leave fred scott out of it if i was you?he does figure in it but you will just open another can of worms and bring shepherds ninto it aswell along with quite a few others!!!!!
we got enough trouble with what we got here now.
well the only other girl that could have married a BIRD is Isabella Smith unless Selina hearne nee Taylor/Cooper remarried a Bird.
shall have a look
deb
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in the 1881 where we have Reuben and Abigail (Horn) BIRD living in tents in Mitcham Suirrey we have reuben's son Henry b Worth on the next page ...as has been said before ...BUT travelling with them is a SAMUEL SMITH, 40 b Acton Middlesex hawker and his wife Priscilla and kids...do you think this is your sam Smith = Athelia Cooper?
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and selinia by the way carol nightowl says is athelias and joshuas daughter.!
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i wonder if henry bird married isabella smith?making their kids atheilias grandchildren?
ithink this is the bit we got to work round now.took us long enough to get here didnt it?not that i hve done alot except direct proceedings but i will hvae to hurry up an d rejoin ancestry!!!!
shooping in the morning but back afterwards.
if only we could find what kids he had with athelia(sam that is)then we can marry them off to folks.
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Hi Every one
I have just got in from York, been to a Carol service at the York Minster.
Give me few hours to digest your comments and Ill come back and comment.
Carol x
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Okay
yep
Selina Taylor = Christopher Hearn 1890
if she was Joshua COOPER's Daughter why marry as Selina TAYLOR?
In most travelling families the maternal line was more important than the paternal line. Despite being legally married a lot of children still went by their mothers name. My own grandmother Ocean Scarrott, was really a Brinkley as her father was Walter Brinkley, but she always took the name Scarrott, which was her mother counsey Scarrotts maiden name. But in 1901 census, they all go under the name Loveridge, which was her father Walter Brinkleys, mothers maiden name(Esther Loveridge)! And on Athaliahs death certificate when it says widow of Joshua, I dont believe it means a Joshua Taylor, it was just assumed because she was using her maiden name. Remember on death certificates it is only as accurate as whoever reports it at the time-if Selina was present at death and she was Joshuas daughter she would probably say widow of Joshua rather than Sam Smith Betty x
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hi Smileyface ...
I connect to the Scarrotts through my sophia Orchard = Thomas Penfold LOL
deb :)
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Hello again debs, What I didnt know until Irene told me this week, my Scarrotts and Brices from Oxfordshire also connect to the Taylors - Emma Taylors sister Elizabeths line, which also includes the Edmond Smith/Urania Buckland line too.....oh no...what have i done....no cathay...dont digress, you realise this will branch off to just about everyone living........tee hee - by the way cant take credit for any of that its all Irenes good work.
betty x
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everyone of the folks involved in this hunt as done alot of work over the years to help build this wonderful wonderful tree that we all have.we are connected in so many different ways!thats why i chose to do this hunt this time cause what ever direction we go we find links to our friends trees.we after all one big family!!!!!!i thought it was apt at this time of year to help you all find more distant cousins.there are some many twigs we can follow here if we want and each one will lead to a well worked family line of one of our distant cousins!!!!!i knew about the scarrott connection debs.i can send details in the new year if you wish?
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Where have you all gone!!!!!!!
Cathay...... Ive still had no luck with your family so im posting names i know you have mentioned
in the hope it will tie up somewhere. Dont want this hunt to end so hope these may help :D :D
1861 RG09 / 458 / 136 / 16
Antonio Godfrey head age 32 occ pedlar
Eliza wife age 24
Eliza dau age 5
Emma dau age 1
All b Chatham Kent
Address Cart, Caravan, Hampton Wick, Surrey
Sue
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1861 RG09 / 490 / 204 / 25
William Brazell head age 70, occ mat maker
Jane wife age 70
James son unmarried, age 33, b Tonbridge, Kent, occ mat maker
Mathew son, umarried, age 27 b Tonbridge, Kent, occ mat maker
Sarah A Brazell granddaughter age 12 b Mansfield, Sussex
Address Leigh, Kent
Also
John Brazell head age 47 b Wadhurst, Sussex, occ tinman
Priscilla wife age 43 b Brighton
Mathew son age 13 b Hever, Kent
Mary A dau age 11 b Rotherfield, Sussex
William son age 8 b Rotherfield
James son age 5 b Sussex
Ann dau age 3 b Lindfield, Surrey
Other names on page are Ford, Young, Bowra, Eastwood, Collison
Dont know if these will help or not Cathay
Sue
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i think you might have something with the brazils.need to connect them to the taylors though to be the right ones. where did you find the godfreys in this lot????i havent seen them?
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Hi Cathay,
Thought you mentioned Godfreys somewhere or did i get the name wrong ???
Haven't found any Taylors with the Brazells so far ???
Sue
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Have we had these families?
1861 RG09 / 26 / 140 / 54
Hannah Cooper, married, age 42 b Bromley Kent
Mary dau unmarried, age 16 b Brighton
Fanny dau age 10 b Moulsey, Surrey
Genlilia dau age 9 b Moulsey
Wilson son age 6 b Horwood, Surrey
Address Covered Cart, Latimer Road, Hammersmith
Also on same page
Jeremiah Taylor head age 47 b Walford Herts, occ basket maker
Augusta wife age 44 b High Wycombe
Ataliah dau, unmarried age 19 b Moulsey
? dau age 10 b Kent
Christopher son age 6 b Wadsworth, Surrey
Eda dau age 3 b Kensington, Middlesex
Georgiana dau age 2 b Hammersmith
Other families are 2 Roberts families and 2 Boswells fam.
Sue
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i mentioned godfreys in another hunt but they are jews not gypsies although they lived with the gypsies.they are in london nothing to do with these.i wish carol or someone would come on tonight as i need help from them now to progress.i dont know where they all are do you?i will be back on in the morning and i will see what i ca find to proceed with.we still got 4 days left of the hunt havent we?
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in your post above.see if you can find sarah brazil in later cencues.she rings a bell with me.i think she connects when she marries.
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Hi,
I have Sarah Brazil age 4 in the 1851 at Peasmarsh Kent as the daughter of John Brazil and Priscilla his wife.
Also recorded is another Sarah Brazil, John's sister aged 17. Other children are;
Elizabeth 11
Matthew 6
They were travelling with;
Thomas & Elizabeth Burratt and their children;
Brisella and Sabon Burratt.
And also Elizabeth Harlot [Thomas Burratt's Mother] and Thomas Harlot, his nephew.
I hope this is one of your Sarah's :)
Fingers crossed.
Grant.
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Hi Again,
In the 1851 Sarah Brazil was born 1847 at Croboro Sussex, dau of John & Priscilla.
Aunty Sarah Brazil was born abt 1834 Romney Marsh.
This is interesting!
I find in the 1891 Sussex Broadwater. In Caravans and Tents in Field [Brighton Rd]
Sarah A Brazil- "Hawker", born abt 1837 Crowborough Sussex. Mother of James Brazil. wife is Rebecca.
11 children, one dau also named Priscilla again.
The family were travelling with Charles & Silvia Lee & Co, John & Celia Johnson & Co, George & Ann Ripley & Co. and Clement & Ellen Greenfield.
Still looking for Taylors!
Best.
Grant :)
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Oh Cathay..... I think you mentioned the Lee family somewhere didn't you ???
Sue
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riht these seemlike the right brazils but need to come forward in the cencus to find one of the girls marrying a taylor.the name sarah and priscilla looking good. they also marry into the golbys who also figure in my and smileys faces tree.
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Here are the famuily in 1871
RG10 / 1055 / 76 / 24
John Brazil head age 54, occ hawker
Priscilla wife age 44
James son age 15
Ancelina dau age 12
All b Sussex Address Chelwood Gate. Fletching
Trying to find a link Cathay :)
Sue
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i am just going to have a ggod read through and try and pull it together a bit and narrow down who we need to find now for the links.hope i can do it.then we got 3 days to sortit.we have a lot of useful info now but no link as yet to to the birds other than we know it was a grandson of athelia taylor.
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This is from 1881 RG11 / 1056 / 66 / 20
John Brazill head age 69
Priscilla wife age 53
Matthew son, married age 34
Selina dau in law age 32
William son married age 24
Caroline dau in law age 22
Cordelia granddaughter age 13
James grandson age 11
Henry grandson age 3
Fanny granddaughter age 2
Moses grandson age 1
Address Travelling Van, Holtye, Hartfield, Sussex
Do any of the grandchildren ring any bells?
Sue
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in the 1881 where we have Reuben and Abigail (Horn) BIRD living in tents in Mitcham Suirrey we have reuben's son Henry b Worth on the next page ...as has been said before ...BUT travelling with them is a SAMUEL SMITH, 40 b Acton Middlesex hawker and his wife Priscilla and kids...do you think this is your sam Smith = Athelia Cooper?
so looking at that i think one of sam smith daughters (whether from athelia or priscilla i dont know)married a bird who we have yet to find.my bet is isabel married the bird?
caroline rings the bell janan.in reply to your post.just going put something up now.
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according to 1891 census Selina HERNE nee TAYLOR or Cooper says she is 24 = bc 1867
Isabella/Bella SMITH is 13 = bc 1878
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Here are a family in 1891 RG12 / 835 / 43 / 40
James Brazil head age 36 b Crawley, Surrey, occ hawker
Rebecca wife age 38 b Mersham, Kent, occ hawker
James son, single age 18 b Romney Marsh, Kent, occ hawker
Jane dau age 16 b Lynn, Kent
Priscilla dau age 14 b Hyde Kent
Phylis dau age 11 b Chobham, Surrey
Sarah dau age 9 b Mitcham, Surrey
Emily dau age 7 b Mitcham, Surrey
Matthew son age 5 b Brighton
Mary dau age 5 b Brighton
Patience dau age 11 months b Egham, Surrey
Job son age 11 months b Egham
Sarah A mother, widow age 54 b Crowborough, Sussex
Address Caravan in a field and tent, Brighton Road, Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex
Gotta pop out for a while but wont be long i hope Cathay ;D ;D ;D
Sue
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Cathay next to the Brazil family there are the Lee family a Charles , his wife and children :)
BBS ;D
Sue
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i am really hoping to find a smith/taylor/cooper mariage very late 1800s to a bird to get the connection.we have connected the hearns to the taylor family now so we can leave that bit out.
we also need the taylor/cooper/ connection to the brazils.
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does anyone know if sam smith had a brother called edward?
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It seems to be going well Cathay.......well done :)
Barbara
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i have found a note in my records that alice taylor married a mishach horne in 5/01/1825!!!they had a load of kids including henry b.1850 so was the name hearn miscribed as horn when there was the horn/bird marraige??????have another Rueban Bird basket maker married Abigail Horn in 1872 fathers Thomas Bird a brazier and James Horn Basket maker!!!
was the grandson bird seliias child as she was a hearn on her marriage and did she have a second man by the name of bird????
do you understand what i am trying to get at?(alice taylor was by the way athelias aunty!first born to jermiah and sarah taylor!!!!alices son abednego /benjamin horn/hearn says thomas taylor was his uncle and thomas was killed in the hartlake disaster!)
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oh tephra seems to be going well!!!!!! its one big muddle at the moment.we seem to have all the deatails but no answeres as to how the tie together as yet????
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if we could find abigail hearn!her and her mother or granny turns out to be a taylor(like alice for instance she says hopfullYwe awill have the connection i think???????my head is going round and round at the moment.
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Hi Jacquiline I have got you now, didnt realise you were trying to get hold of my but its great to hear from you and I hope we can exchange some info on our taylors. i am a descendant of jeremiah and sarah to son joseph, he married henrietta ayres and had several children including a daughter emma who was my great grandmother emma called edward smith her husband, no evidence of this and they has 5 knowm children of whom their daughter rose was my grandmother who died in 1959 when i was 9 years old. More to follow want to make sure you get this and will send some photos over to you and anything else which may interest you
here is another smith connection?thats why i wondered if sam smith was the brother of edward.?we all know of cousin cousin marriages in our families?
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Cathay, you'll get it all sorted soon, I know you will...........then your head can stop spinning... :D :D
Barbara
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Joshua seems to be an enigma just a name on a marriage cert.
What I am wondering is, as Alfred was a Taylor, that he was told his father was Joshua but in fact his father may have been a COOPER. If he told the registar his father was Joshua they just put Taylor.
Maybe his mother was the Taylor????? and lived with a Cooper.
we now know johua was a cooper!!!!!we now know his mother was a a taylor athelia!so is this another child for athelia and joshua? and who did he marry?was it a bird?
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Welcome to Rootschat Grant......you'll find Cathays Hunts are always very interesting...sometimes too interesting :D :D I'm always eager to see what's been found out today.
Barbara
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Hello,
Iam learning to just walk around here- when things start moving they move fast.
Also Iam at the very end of my day at the other end of our Global Village and it's high summer.
Best!
Grant.
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Hi Jacquiline I have got you now, didnt realise you were trying to get hold of my but its great to hear from you and I hope we can exchange some info on our taylors. i am a descendant of jeremiah and sarah to son joseph, he married henrietta ayres and had several children including a daughter emma who was my great grandmother emma called edward smith her husband, no evidence of this and they has 5 knowm children of whom their daughter rose was my grandmother who died in 1959 when i was 9 years old. More to follow want to make sure you get this and will send some photos over to you and anything else which may interest you
here is another smith connection?thats why i wondered if sam smith was the brother of edward.?we all know of cousin cousin marriages in our families?
cathay are you the grandaughter of rose, or are you quoting someone else in this message, betty xx
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does anyone know if sam smith had a brother called edward?
render and nehemiah as far as i know. His uncle and aunts are all pretty well know so dont need to go into them here, but another matty cooper connection comes from sams aunt isabella smith who married mattys brother nelson cooper. Probably where the isabellas all get their name from you have been mentioning.
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Has this been posted before ???
1891 RG12 / 559 / 84 / 4
John Smith head age 38 b Haslemere, Surrey, occ traveller
Mary wife age 42 b Ewhurst Surrey
Ernest F son age 3 b Guildford, Surrey
Address 6 North Place, Stoke, Guildford
Will see if i can find their marriage :)
Hi Betty :) :) :)
Sue
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Oh wrong one :o
Mar 1887 John Smith to Mary Ursula Godfrey at Croyden
Never mind will keep searching :)
Where has Deb gone ::)
Sue
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no irene is roses grandaughter!!!!but she and i share alot of relis we are distant cousins.
right sams brothers are useful.as is the fact that the first isablle smith married mattys brother?is that right.i really think our isabella that we are talking about now is connected to the birds in someway.we just got to find out how?id be interested in that smith line sometime if you have it?smiley?
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we seem so near and yet so far at the moment.what are we not seeing?its really getting to me now!driving me insane.you will proberly hear of me being carted off soon by the men in white coats!!!!!
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no irene is roses grandaughter!!!!but she and i share alot of relis we are distant cousins.
right sams brothers are useful.as is the fact that the first isablle smith married mattys brother?is that right.i really think our isabella that we are talking about now is connected to the birds in someway.we just got to find out how?id be interested in that smith line sometime if you have it?smiley?
you should have put irenes bit in quotes cathay, you know what people are like, they will think thats you and put you as grandaughter of rose on ancestry in an hours time! or maybe 5 minutes...!
havent got it to hand the smith line, but well documented, children of elijah and sophia, off the top of my head, susan yoki shuri married riley boss, isabella married nelson cooper, james, perron, liti married robert palmer, vaino, samuel, robert, delphi, all married into well known families. Time frame for births, i know isabella born about 1801 and perron about 1817, so all early part of 1800s i would say.
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no irene is roses grandaughter!!!!but she and i share alot of relis we are distant cousins.
right sams brothers are useful.as is the fact that the first isablle smith married mattys brother?is that right.i really think our isabella that we are talking about now is connected to the birds in someway.we just got to find out how?id be interested in that smith line sometime if you have it?smiley?
you should have put irenes bit in quotes cathay, you know what people are like, they will think thats you and put you as grandaughter of rose on ancestry in an hours time! or maybe 5 minutes...!
havent got it to hand the smith line, but well documented, children of elijah and sophia, off the top of my head, susan yoki shuri married riley boss, isabella married nelson cooper, james, perron, liti married robert palmer, vaino, samuel, robert, delphi, all married into well known families. Time frame for births, i know isabella born about 1801 and perron about 1817, so all early part of 1800s i would say.
sorry isabella born about 1810
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okay smiley.i will learn how to do quotes!!!!!!!!!!!!at the moment i cut and paste anything to be brought forward!!!!!!
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Edward Smith head, married, age 22 b Larton Oxfordshire, travellers, hawker
Emma Taylor, single age 23, b not known, travellers
Edward Taylor age 3 b Alington, Oxfordshire, travellers
Infant Taylor age 0 b Kingston, Surrey, travellers
Address 1 Caravan Towing Path, Putney
emma taylor and atheilia are cousins!!!!there dads were brothers. emma lives with and has 4 kids with edward smith sometimes known as albert smith
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Just found some Coopers (francis and Alice and kids:Rhoda, luie and Alfie)) and Taylors living next to each other ....
they are general dealers/hawkers
1901
RG13/668 8 7
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Do these fit in anywhere/
1891 RG12 / 825 / 112 / 5
Thomas Cooper head age 50 b Chertsey, no occ listed
Bella wife age 29 b Oxford
Selina dau age 5 b Burgess Hill, Sussex
Walter son age 3 b Staplefield, Sussex
Sarah dau age under 6 months b Ashdown Forest, Kent
Address Caravan, The Common, Henfield, Blackstone, Sussex
Sue
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cathay, betty here, thanks for posting up rhoda smith. The post that says she is dau of William Smith and Sinfoy may only be supposition, nothing concrete has been found to connect her, unless anyone can tell me different. What is known about her is married 1862 Theophilus scarrott, grandson of the mentioned William Scarrott and Mary Whitehouse. Had children counceletta 1863 m walter brinkley. william 1866 hes on 1881 census stoke hammond on green with a Johnny and Kesiah Smith both from Oxfordshire. Rhoda went with Valentine Brinkley son of william brinkley and anne shaw (her daughter Counseys husbands uncle) and had Valenine 1879, Edward 1881, James 1877. James died 1907 Edmonton, but more is known of Edward, he married Priscilla Penfold (not sure of her parents) They married 1920 Chipping Barnet and had
Reuben 1926
Annie
Lena 1909 d 1982
rhoda 1922 d 2000 maarried john scott from mitcham
jane 1919 d 2001 married ned gumble
frank 1913 d 1979
edward 1907 d 1928
priscilla 1904 born edmonton.
Walter brinkley senior (brother of Valentine above) married Esther loveridge also known as Henrietta Haynes (her mother was a Caroline Haynes, her father Levi Valentine Loveridge), Walter and Esther had:-
Sidney 1865 married Leander Smith and they had Sidney 1898
Rodney married jane penfold and they had fambridge 1897 rodney 1900 and priscilla 1889
Job married lavinia lee and had moses 1897 and frederick 1903
Hannah Mazella 1878
Sophia Alice Brinkley aka Haynes married a Christopher smith and had cissy, elijah, frederick, rodney, sophia and christoper. Sending you a family history report of them
these are just bits i have posted from another hunt when we did emma taylor athelia cousns tree.all related to our taylors.just wondered if it might help?
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yes yes yes.jamjo that definately lookslike something.maybe isabel(bella)smith/cooper/taylor there married to a cooper and calling her first girl after her sister selinia. yes i think they are to do with this hunt.cathayb
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OK Cathay ill try to find more on them ;D ;D
Maybe getting somewhere at last ;D
Sue
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Just found some Coopers (francis and Alice and kids:Rhoda, luie and Alfie)) and Taylors living next to each other ....
they are general dealers/hawkers
1901
RG13/668 8 7
Right cathay, francis cooper and alice daughter polly m george taylor and had george 1900 chiswick and annie 1901 chiswick. Nelson Cooper and General daughter louisa married elias taylor son of Joseph and Henrietta. Louisa and Elias had bessie william george elias and frank. I dont know but the George who married polly could be louisa and elias george as he was born 1886 so age ties in. In 1901 General has her Taylor grandchildren with her- so more connections between Mattys Coopers and Taylors (Francis was his son, Nelson his nephew) General is always around the Windsor area. Generals half sister by her mother and Edmond Smith Rosetta zuby Smith, well Rosettas daughter Henrietta Hutchins married William Clarke - William was son of Emma Taylors sister Elizabeth Clarke nee Taylor. So Rosetta and Elizabeth were mother in laws to their childrens spouses. So another connection with Smiths/Buckland/Cooper clan
betty xx
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Looking for Thomas and Bella Cooper i just found this family so i thought id post ;D
1901 RG13 / 1159 / 70 / 10
John Cooper head age 46 b Egham, Surrey, occ horsedealer etc
Ellis wife age 44 b NK Hampshire
Jane dau age 16 b Reading, Berkshire
John son age 13 b Sunbury, Middlesex
Walter son age 11 b Egham, Surrey
Lena dau age 8 b Egham, Surrey
Nelson son age 6 b Egham, Surrey
Address (Gipsey Van ) Oakley Green, Bray, Berkshire
Sue
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not quite sure who john is yet but with being born in egham and having a son nelson, he must be one of our coopers. betty x
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at last we are getting somewhere.dont forget the bird that married a horn???horn maybe a hearn!!!!!!then we have another tie in.
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have you got a Ann Cooper b 1841 Middlesex with son Frederick b 1872 Tottenham in your
family only found these in London with Edward Taylor, Eliza Taylor, Eliza Taylor, Sarah Taylor
and granddaughter Annie Myers. Not down as travellers etc so im not sure ???
Sue
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john was born 1867,his dad was thomas b.1835surry married sarah? thomases dad was leonard b.1806 who married phyllis lee!!!(theres a lee connection) leonard was mathias brother.so he was athelias great uncle!!!!!(mathias being joshua coopers grandad who athlia taylor married first!!!!!!!!)
we got a link and so more to add to the tree.great i didnt have johns kids or wife!!!!!!!
well well done folks
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dont recognise them sue.sorry love.someone might?
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TaylorClan scavenger stuff
29 minutes ago
Hi Cathay, I have only got through the first page or so and thought I could give you what I have on Ann Taylor and Henry Sheppards line:
Ann Taylor (Nancy) b1826, d21/4/1900 (daughter of Jeremiah and Sarah), married to Henry Sheppard. They had a son called Edward Sheppard b1860, d22/4/1928 on railway? Edward was married to Ann Penfold (Hannah) b1860 Wandsworth and d25/11/1932. Their daughter was Annie Sheppard b1876/9? Acton, she married (25/9/1898) in Hadlow to Samuel Sanger Cooper. (The Sanger name came from the Doctor who helped deliver him). Ann Penfold and Edward Sheppard also had a daughter called Caroline b10/5/1891, but died in 1892, buried in Acotn Cemetry. -
Samuel had a brother called Tom. SSCoopers father was Samuel Cooper and his mother was Patience Smith d.at 96 in Edmonton. Samuel Coopers father was Mattius Cooper and he was the Royal Rat Catcher.
Getting back to Annie Sheppard, she had a brother called Frank who d.27/12/1958 and a brother called Henry and her sister was Mary Mills. Annie and SSCooper had Gentilia Cooper (amongst others?) she was married to Samuel Scott. Gentillia had a brother called Sam who married lena, a brother called Edward and another called Henry who married Beatie Boswell and had 7 children, then he married Lizzie Taylor and had 7 children. (Clear as mud eh!??)
If you are keeping up....
Sam Scott and Gentilia Cooper had Alice Scott b5/9/1926 ,d16/1/1990 who married Frank Ransone.(this is the lady who wrote the letter about her grannies granny at Hartlake) Alice had a sister called Annie (who read the letter at the service) and a brother called Sam who died aged about 2 when he fell from the vardo, and also a sister called Genty.
The Scotts changed their name to Smith or Cooper from memory I think after a bare knuckle fight ended badly!
I dont know if any of this is helpful. I will keep reading the scavenge and see if there is anything else I can help with!
Cath.
at last we are starting to tie in some families.horrah
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The Brazils are the children of Annie Ransome b17/10/1925, she married Jim Brazil and 5 sons and 2 daughters.
Fighting Sam was relaterd to the Brazils. When I went and saw Frank Brazil this year, I went though most of the family. Unfortunately time was not on our side. I am sure he told me about fighting sam. He was either a scott or a cooper. It is the one mentioned in George Burrows Lavro Lil. His wife was Charlotte and he left her for a younger model and ended up getting transported. Frank Brazil said that one of his relatives changed their name. The names Cooper/Smith/Scott were the families involved.
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Have you had this Cathay?
1891 RG12 / 1023 / 147 / 57
Sarah Cooper head, widow, age 56 b Denham Hertfordshire, occ hawker
Job son age 20 b Windsor
Francis son age 18 b Egham, Surrey
Nelson Cooper grandson age 3 b Egham, Surrey
living in Caravan in Isleworth, Middlesex
Sue
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Oh in the next caravan is :)
Francis Cooper head age 54 b Cobham, occ showman, travelling
Alice wife age 50 b Guildford, Surrey
Frank son age 20 b Monsley, Surrey, occ showman, travelling
Alice dau age 18 b Staines, Middlesex
Albert son age 14 b Epsom, Surrey
Amy dau age 12 b Epsom, Surrey
Polly dau age 9 b Monsley, Surrey
Rhoda dau age 7 b Hanworth, Middlesex
Sue
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Oh i do hope im on the right track here ;D
And in the next caravan to Francis and Alice
Koloman Hearns head age 43 b Chesham, Buckinghamshire, occ tinman, travelling
Bridget wife age 42 b Reading, Berkshire
George son age 22 b Yalding, Kent, occ tinman
Sam son age 20 b Watford, Hertfordshire, occ tinman
James son age 18 b Watford, Hertfordshire, occ tinman
Also on same page are Odam and Clark family and Blimey ;D ;D
Henry Taylor head age 37 b Malling, Surrey, occ gen dealer
Elizabeth wife age 37 b Gravesend, Kent
Walter son age 9 b Egham, Surrey
Amy dau age 7 b Wanstead, Essex
Caroline dau age 5 b London, Islington
Sue
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And there are more
Rady Cooper head age 32 b NK
Lemmy dau age 13 b Windsor, Berkshire
Alfred son age 9 b Aldershot, Hampshire
Sarah dau age 7 b Farnham, Hampshire
Farche son age 6 b Hounslow, Middlesex
Joseph Taylor head, widr, age 71 b Bushey, Hertfordshire, occ showman
Albert son, single, age 46 b Putney, Surrey, occ horse dealer
Mary N Clark granddaughter age 17 b Norbiton, Surrey
Patsy Masly lodger age 30 b London, Chelsea
Sue
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Also there are this family
Alfred Taylor head age 31 b Harrow, Middlesex, occ gen dealer
Jane wife age 27 b London
Albert son age 5 b Berkingham, Slough
William son age 3 b Harlington, Middlesex
Henry son age 1 b Northflet, Kent
William Smith lodger age 36 b Oxford
Also families called Webb and Rawlings are here
Cathay i know some may not be yours but maybe they will help someone else :)
Do you think there may be a link somewhere with one of these families and the Hearns ???
Will be calling it a night soon so see you tomorrow :D :D :D I do hope some of this may help :D
Sue
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woo hey and we got joseph taylor as well.hehehe i am so happy.thats great jamajo!!!!!just find the birds and we got it!!!!!!!its taken us long enough to get here hasnt it?but worth it in the end.i wish debs would look in again.
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they are ALL ours darling.thats brillant!!!!
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Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation
Francis Cooper 60 Cobham, Surrey, England Head General Dealer
Alice Cooper 59 Bristol, Gloucestershire Wife Pedlar
Rhoda Cooper 18 Hampton, Surrey, England Daughter
Luie Cooper 15 Walton, Surrey, England Granddaughter
Alfie Cooper 7 Kingston, Surrey, England Grandson
George Taylor 21 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Head General Labourer
Mary Taylor 19 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Wife
George Taylor 1 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Son
Annie Taylor 1 Month Chiswick, Middlesex, England Daughter
4 Alpha Road
HAS THIS LOT BEEN POSTED?1881
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Selina Taylor daughter of Athelia m Christopher Hearne son of John Hearne in 1890 selina states she was the daughter of Joshua Taylor, but there is a theory from another researcher that this may well have been Joshua Cooper who married Selinas mother A theliah Taylor. Athelia was the daughter of Jeremiah/Augusta Taylor born 1842. A sister of Atheliah Ada Taylor married Richard Kimber in 1877 they lived in the area of Notting Dale. A brother to these two Christophert Taylor married Sarah Gaylor in the same year 1877. This Christopher was a witness at the wedding of Jabez Taylor and Emily Dunn but these two are the direct descendants of Treehunter who has another thread on this site entitled Taylor or Smith. Yet another brother William married Keziah Dickson who died shortly after they had one daughter. William then married Lydia Borten
Irene
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Hi,
Here is another record return which matches names but is possibly another generation.
1891. Kent. Deal RG12/738
Joshua Cooper. 30 'Ironmongers Labourer' b. 1861 Ridgewell Essex.
Ellen S Cooper 34 - Wife b. abt 1857 Ringwould Kent.
Frank Son 10,
Alfred, son 7 b. abt 1884 Poplar London.
Charles B. 3
Joshua J
John Hearn Head 43 b.abt 1848 Lancaster
Elizabeth Hearn Wife 42 b. abt 1849 Deal, Kent.
Listed as 'Ag Labourers' are a Smith family.
Joseph Smith Head 38 and his wife Mary A both born Kent. with 5 children.
Best!
Grant.
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;D Hi Cathay,
Glad it's going so well.... I've been away and just got home to do a quick catch up. Must get a cuppa. I see so many names of peeps I know....
Small -Sussex/Hampshire, Light-Berks/Bucks. Brazil- Sussex... Taylors/Scarrot/Franklin- Henfield (is just up the road)........
Then you got Oakley Green, Bray..... for goodness me.... where's your Turners.... ;D ;D ;D
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Oh im so pleased they are yours Cathay ;D ;D ;D
At last we may be getting somewhere :D
Les...... Turners Blimey im sure i see them somewhere :D :D
All these names we have been searching and where is Deb when you need her ;D ;D ;D
Gonna have a coffee and then i will be back searching, gotta find these Birds :D :D
Sue
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Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation
Francis Cooper 60 Cobham, Surrey, England Head General Dealer
Alice Cooper 59 Bristol, Gloucestershire Wife Pedlar
Rhoda Cooper 18 Hampton, Surrey, England Daughter
Luie Cooper 15 Walton, Surrey, England Granddaughter
Alfie Cooper 7 Kingston, Surrey, England Grandson
George Taylor 21 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Head General Labourer
Mary Taylor 19 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Wife
George Taylor 1 Chiswick, Middlesex, England Son
Annie Taylor 1 Month Chiswick, Middlesex, England Daughter
4 Alpha Road
HAS THIS LOT BEEN POSTED?1881
Tried to follow these Cathay and they are on 1901 ???
Sue
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Morning Sue,
Do you know where the Bird's were first sighted :o Just to give me something to start with.... It would take most of this morning reading through all the info found so far.... :o 8)
I've been in Manchester again doing 'our' Norris's.... :D :D
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Hi Les,
Hope you had some luck with them :)
All i can tell you is Cathay thinks somewhere there is a link with the Birds to the Coopers,
Taylors, maybe a marriage but hoping they are around Surrey area or nearby with these families.
We need to tie them in with her families somehow :)
Confused myself and hoping Cathay can do an update when she comes on :D :D
Sue
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Trying to follow up on families in 1891 and your Joseph is still going strong in 1901 Cathay :)
1901 RG13 / 1185 181 / 26
Joseph Cooper head age 84 b Bushley, occ gen hawker
Address White Bear Field, Heston, Middlesex
Also there are
Henry Taylor head age 42 b Kingston, Surrey, gen dealor
Elizabeth wife age 43 b Bromley, Kent
Walter son age 19 b Egham, occ gen dealor
Amy dau age 19 b Wanstead, Essex
Caroline dau age 15 b Islington, London
Alice dau age 9 b Hounslow, Middlesex
Also with them are the Clarks, Edwards, Penfolds, Nash, Chapman, Simpson and Miller, also looks
like Hutchins family and Stevens families. There is also Alfred Taylor and his wife Jane and family.
Will post if you want them Cathay. :)
Cant find no Birds though ???
Sue
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Ok... ???... There were Bird's in Bucks/Berks that I know of... I'll take a look abouts..
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lesanne wehave followed the birds starting on page 3 of this hunt.if you care to take a looksy
athelia had a bird grandson.so one hof her daughters or step daughters must have married a bird.the first lot of birds we followed we think were the wrong ones.the real ones we think started on page 3.hope this helps cathay
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RE: scavenger stuff
Yesterday, 6:05 PM EST
"Hi Cathay, I have only got through the first page or so and thought I could give you what I have on Ann Taylor and Henry Sheppards line:
Ann Taylor (Nancy) b1826, d21/4/1900 (daughter of Jeremiah and Sarah), married to Henry Sheppard. They had a son called Edward Sheppard b1860, d22/4/1928 on railway? Edward was married to Ann Penfold (Hannah) b1860 Wandsworth and d25/11/1932. Their daughter was Annie Sheppard b1876/9? Acton, she married (25/9/1898) in Hadlow to Samuel Sanger Cooper. (The Sanger name came from the Doctor who helped deliver him). Ann Penfold and Edward Sheppard also had a daughter called Caroline b10/5/1891, but died in 1892, buried in Acotn Cemetry. -
Samuel had a brother called Tom. SSCoopers father was Samuel Cooper and his mother was Patience Smith d.at 96 in Edmonton. Samuel Coopers father was Mattius Cooper and he was the Royal Rat Catcher.
Getting back to Annie Sheppard, she had a brother called Frank who d.27/12/1958 and a brother called Henry and her sister was Mary Mills. Annie and SSCooper had Gentilia Cooper (amongst others?) she was married to Samuel Scott. Gentillia had a brother called Sam who married lena, a brother called Edward and another called Henry who married Beatie Boswell and had 7 children, then he married Lizzie Taylor and had 7 children. (Clear as mud eh!??)
If you are keeping up....
Sam Scott and Gentilia Cooper had Alice Scott b5/9/1926 ,d16/1/1990 who married Frank Ransone.(this is the lady who wrote the letter about her grannies granny at Hartlake) Alice had a sister called Annie (who read the letter at the service) and a brother called Sam who died aged about 2 when he fell from the vardo, and also a sister called Genty.
The Scotts changed their name to Smith or Cooper from memory I think after a bare knuckle fight ended badly!
I dont know if any of this is helpful. I will keep reading the scavenge and see if there is anything else I can help with!
Cath"Hello cath
Read with great interest on your rundown of the Shephard/ Cooper liason.
You say Annie Shephard had a sister called Mary Mills.
Did mary marry a MIlls? or was that her maiden name.?
As I am related to the Mills family I am curious.
Now my second cousin Patsy Thompson mentioned a marriage between a Taylor and a Shephard but he said it was his Aunt Jenti Louise b 1896 Eldest daughter of Alfred Taylor and Flora Mills. I thought he may have got confused.
I am gradually putting together on paper who married who and who may or may not have changed their names but I still dont know the connection of Alfred Taylor b c 1975 to Daniel Cooper b c 1873 and who their parents were.
Is there amongst you any direct rellies of either Alfred or Daniel that can help us out.?
Alfred had 12 children as follows
Jentie Louise b 1896
Eliza b 1898 (I know about her family) related directly.
Isabella b 1901
Alfred 1903
Jemima 1905
Aaron b 1906 (I think died young on Gomm grave.)
Margaret b 1909
Charles b 1911
Gertrude E b 1912
Irene Gladys (Know of family history)
Naomi b 1916
Jane E b 1919.
All born in Croydon.
Daniel Cooper who married Mary jane Mills (AKA as just Jane) had 7 children that we know of.
Mary Victoria b 1892
Edith Maud b 1895
Elizabeth b 1899
Isabella b 1902
Daniel 1905
Thomas William b 1913.
and
Atherlia /Athalia b 1904, christened in St Saviours but could not find a birth record on BMD only a Selina Delia Cooper.??
As far as the ones I know for def were born in Croydon.
Could the Mary Jane Mills be the Mary Mills sister of Annie Shephard,?
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i am really hoping to find a smith/taylor/cooper mariage very late 1800s to a bird to get the connection.we have connected the hearns to the taylor family now so we can leave that bit out.
we also need the taylor/cooper/ connection to the brazils.
Dont know if this will help you Les ???
Sue
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The Brazils are the children of Annie Ransome b17/10/1925, she married Jim Brazil and 5 sons and 2 daughters.
Fighting Sam was relaterd to the Brazils. When I went and saw Frank Brazil this year, I went though most of the family. Unfortunately time was not on our side. I am sure he told me about fighting sam. He was either a scott or a cooper. It is the one mentioned in George Burrows Lavro Lil. His wife was Charlotte and he left her for a younger model and ended up getting transported. Frank Brazil said that one of his relatives changed their name. The names Cooper/Smith/Scott were the families involved.
No you are getting confused now cathay, fighting jack cooper was married to charlotte lee, he was matty coopers cousin, ...fighting sam cooper was mattys son, my gt grandfather, he met patience smith while he was having a fight and they later married. Sam and patiences son Tom (my grandad) well his sister Mary married the Brazil betty
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right i am with you now.thankyou smiley.
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This is probably in there somewhere ??? I haven't looked....
Which census was the Grandson Taylor found?
Did he have a first name ?
Did he had a birthplace?
What names are Athelia daughters?
Athelia is a Hearne/Cooper/ Smith ?
;)
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Am posting this incase :)
1901 RG13 / 737 / 140 / 50
Abigia Bird head age 62 b N occ hawker
John son age 26 b N
Frances dau age 21 b N
Joe Fuggles age 10 b N
Joseph Russell age 20 b N
Mary Eastwood age 20 b N
May Eastman age 19 b N
Living in tent, back of Balmoral Road, Kent
Also there are these families... 3 Lee families,Jeffrey, Baker, Perfect and Smalls
Some are living in caravans
Sue
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Hi Cathay.
As a side note, I notice that there is a Baker family again showing up.
And also a Scott family line. Did this Scott family ever stop in Wiltshire in the 1850's?
Best!
Grant.
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Same here........ pic (posting in case) ::)
1881 Shropshire Wem Northwood.
Thomas Taylor 68 Ag Lab Flintshire Hanmer?
Mary A Bird 21 Daug Mar Salop Wem
Ellen Taylor 13 Daug Unm Salop
Harriot Bird 1 Gran d Salop
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Another Bird/Taylor combo.......... pic ;D
1901 Nottingham RG13 3178 51 12
Ann Bird Mother Wid 70
Emma 44
Jane 35
Evelyn 30
Dorothy G Daug 4
(all daug have Taylor as varient )
on same ref.......... :-\
Mary A Taylor 75 Head
Alice Taylor 50 Daug
Frank Taylor 39 son
Harry Taylor 36 Son
Fred Savage 27 s-i-l
Constance Savage Daug 26
There are quite a few Bird/Taylor combo's so... which ones to look at.
I'll wait for your notes Cathay..... 8)
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Oh i hope you have found them Les :D :D
Sue
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: CathayB's 3rd Scavenger Hunt..Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 09 December 08 12:54 GMT (UK) »
~~~~~~~~
Re: Taylor or Smith
« Reply #50 on: Friday 05 December 08 13:07 GMT (UK) »
~~~~~~~~
Hello Every one
I have just contacted a direct rellie of Jabez and Emily's first born Athalia b 1903
and although they dont know a great deal between us we may find out a lot more.
I have been given a lot of info by one of the great great great grandaughters of Sarah and jeremiah of which I am sifting through.
Athelia's (b 1903) grandson who is from another well documented gypsy family called Bird.
OH YOU GOING TO LOVE ME FOLKS.i had read the message comletely wrong!!!!!!!!our athelia didnt have a grandson bird!!!dont hit me folks think what you found anyway!!!!!OKAY SO WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES!!!I JUST MADE A WHOPPER!!!!!THEY ARE STILL TEID IN WITH THE FAMILY BUT NOT AS EARLY AS I THOUGHT!!!!!!!OH DEAR!
ATHELIA WAS A TAYLOR MARRIED FIRST JOSHUA COOPER AND THEN SAM SMITH!!!
OH I AM SO SORRY FOLKS.JUST BEFORE I CRAWL UNDER THE TABLE AND HIDE.LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE FINDING SOME STUFF TO DO WITH BIRDS AND TAYLORS ANYWAY LESANNE.THANKS.I WILL TRY AND TIE THEM IN AS SOON AS I HAVE MY DINNER. I WILL GO HIDE UNDER TABLE NOW....
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NEED KENT AREA CONNECTIONS REALLY LESANNE(SAYS SHE JUST POKING HEAD OUT FROM UNDER TABLE)
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RE: Cooper/Taylor/ Parker families
2 minutes ago
Cathay,
I have not got any details about Annie Sheppards sister Mary Mills, I only have her name, she may have married a Mills or she may have been born a Mills?
Some bits and bobs:
I have found details of another Mills though, Christopher Herne (brother of Meshach, Alice Taylors husband) married Betsy Mills.
I also have details of an Albert Taylor b1880/1. He was the son of Nathaniel (b1841/42) and Margaret Taylor. I will have to confirm this, but I think this Nathaniel is the son of Nathaniel b1812 and Sophia Taylor, Nathaniel who died a few years after the bridge accident. Albert was born in Brentford. I dont know if this is any help?
I have a reference for a daughter of Samuel Cooper and Patience= Gentila b15/11/1874, then I found a reference for the birth of Samuel Sanger Cooper b20/8/1876 (who should also be the son of the above) and his parents are said to be Samuel and Ann? This may be a mistake, I am not sure, but I found this reference on the previous gypsies passing through site.
I am just flicking though my notes and I have found another Cooper/Smith marriage: = Vanslow Cooper (son of Mattius and brother of Samuel) married Amy Smith daughter of George Smith.
Henry Shepard and Ann Taylor married 7/12/1845 Hammersmith.
on the 1871 census in Kensington, Henry Taylor 43 chair caner b Watford Herts, with wife Mary 29 b NK.Also with them are: Walter Hearne 22 Chair caner b Newmarket with wife Phillis 20 also William Cooper (brother-in-law - to Heare?) b Plymouth, with him, his wife Esther 25 and son William 3 both b Plymouth.
AHHHH, I have found the reference the Brazils gave me: Genty Cooper (d/o Annie Shepard and Sam Cooper) married Fred Lee, HE CHANGED HIS NAME TO SAMUEL SCOTT! Their daughter was Alice Scott who married Frank Ransome.
more to come....
cath
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Atherlia /Athalia b 1904, christened in St Saviours but could not find a birth record on BMD only a Selina Delia Cooper.??
As far as the ones I know for def were born in Croydon.
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TaylorClan RE: hunt
Today, 12:17 PM EST
Hi again!
I have found another reference.....
Christopher Hearne (son of Jack 'Dusti' Hearne/Herne) married Selina, daughter of Joshua Cooper and Alathia Taylor.
Joseph Hearne (s/o Bendigo/Benjamin/Abednigo and Mary Mancy) married Mary Ann Smith. Joseph was the grandson of Alice Taylor.
Cath
Quote & reply Post reply out of found this valuable. Do you find this valuable?
irenecolbert
irenecolbert RE: hunt
12 minutes ago
The wedding between Chirstopher Hearne and Selina Taylor, as she called herself, took place in 1890 it states father of Selina Joshua Taylor and father
of Christopher as John Hearne a witness to the marriage was Gentilia Taylor any idea if this was Gentilia Cooper because I have never found any Gentilia Taylor or maybe there was and I am just not aware of her
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Hi Cathy
you are mentioning sheppard's I have one Leonard Sheppard married to phoebe miller she was born on mitcham common in 1880 so his Dob must be around the same I know they had 3 children alice, lily and leonard I do have some photo' if you come across him on your hunt her brother james miller married isabella Smith her sister daisy married john cooper he was born epsom downe 1882parents jacob smith & matilda capel have a bit more info on coopers not a good pic of alice
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we have got a n isabella smith in this huntwho had a sister selinia?did yours have any sisters called selinia?
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do you know why john was a cooper if his perants were smith and capel? intriging?!!!
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Vanslow Cooper and Amy Smith married 1873 in Kent they had a son George who married Jane Smith daughter of Emma Taylor born 1858 and Edward Smith son of Anthony Smith and Eliza Blackwell who married in Maids Moreton Bucks in 1841
Quote & reply Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable?
TaylorClan
TaylorClan RE: hunt
Yesterday, 6:31 PM EST
Hello Irene,
I have found a reference to a Jentie Taylor baptized on 10/5/1896 in St Saviour, Croydon Surrey. Daughter of Alfred and Florence. Other children of theirs were: Isabella b1901, Alfred b1903 and Jemima b1905. - I dont think this is the correct Gentila though!?
Gentila Cooper bt15/11/1874 is the d/o Samuel Cooper and Patience Smith.
Another Gentila Cooper was b1903 in Clapham d/o Samuel and Ann.
Another Gentila Cooper was bt 4/7/1852 West Moslesy, d/o William and Hannah.
This is all the Gentilas I can find!
Cath
there are definately a lot of smiths and taylors in this lot!!!dont forget emma and athelia were sisters.
and i wonder if anthony marrying eliza blackwell is where folks used to get mixed up eith sarah blackwell?this is all good stuff coming together in one place for the taylor researchers to seek out the connections.there has to be many me thinks!!!!
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Hi Cathay,
What are we still needing, just a bit confused now ???
Sue
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we need a husband for our isabelle (selinia sister)smith.
a date of birth for rosie smith emma taylors daughter would be good as well.she was born sometime between 1879 and 1858.
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isabella & daisy smith's parents were Joacob smith & Matilda F capel
john coopers 1882 parents were john cooper 1848 & Elvinia spelt very starnge ways along the way and not sure if john was his real name
dont know if there was a selina smith , but they had some sons jacob,Henry,william, frederick & john
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Can only find 1 Rosie Smith birth between those dates
Mar 1869 Rosie Smith at Westminster St J
Vol 1a Page 428
When was Isabella born Cathay and do you know where?
Sue
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: CathayB's 3rd Scavenger Hunt..Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« Reply #197 on: Friday 12 December 08 11:18 GMT (UK) »
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in the 1881 where we have Reuben and Abigail (Horn) BIRD living in tents in Mitcham Suirrey we have reuben's son Henry b Worth on the next page ...as has been said before ...BUT travelling with them is a SAMUEL SMITH, 40 b Acton Middlesex hawker and his wife Priscilla and kids...do you think this is your sam Smith = Athelia Cooper?
so looking at that i think one of sam smith daughters (whether from athelia or priscilla i dont know)married a bird who we have yet to find.my bet is isabel married the bird?
caroline rings the bell janan.in reply to your post.just going put something up now.
Report to moderator 89.241.233.120
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birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country
cathayb
RootsChat Veteran
Online
Posts: 752
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: CathayB's 3rd Scavenger Hunt..Everyone Welcome To Join In.
« Reply #198 on: Friday 12 December 08 11:20 GMT (UK) »
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according to 1891 census Selina HERNE nee TAYLOR or Cooper says she is 24 = bc 1867
Isabella/Bella SMITH is 13 = bc 1878
this looks like it may be isabella copied from page 16 here.see if we can find who she married isabella that is
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:D I'm confused....
Is this any good...........
Marriages Dec 1885
Bird Alfred
Downey Harry
Smith Isabella
Snell Emily
Sudbury 4a 1013
:-\
Added...Oh perhaps not... :-[
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according to 1891 census Selina HERNE nee TAYLOR or Cooper says she is 24 = bc 1867
Isabella/Bella SMITH is 13 = bc 1878
this looks like it may be isabella copied from page 16 here.see if we can find who she married isabella that is
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:-\ Births..........
Isabel Mills Smith 1853 Dec Shoreditch 1c 166
Isabella Horn Smith 1875 Sept Leeds 9b 606 or 616
Isabel Taylor Smith 1878 Jun Sunderland 10a 725
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Hi Les,
Glad you have joined us :D :D
Im struggling with finding a marriage for Isabella ??? ???
Sue
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:D Totally confused... I was away to long to catch up.... :-\
Does Cathay have anything to give a birthdate/place for Isabella ???
That previous birthpost... looked a good one till I saw it was Northern... do we know if this is a possible ???
A summary would be good.. Waste so much time reading the posts, trying to find things, that I miss bits.... 8)
Les
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If we could get an update it would be helpful as there must be more Cathay still needs :)
Les in 1891 it gives Isabella as born Walton on Thames ???
Sue
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i am confused aswell folks.theres such alot of info come with this hunt.its is so interesting to see smith and bird togetheras we have never found sam smith with his kids and athelia on a cencus they could have been anywhere????!!!!could have gone north for appleby or anything.i really dont know?i wish some more of the taylor clan would try and sort it out aswell but i think its going take months to work on the info thats come from this hunt.the northeren one looks promising though dosnt it?and it dosnt say they were married just together?maybe they are cousins stopping up there for something?
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Walton on Thames.=
That's Staines way... Kingston....Sunbury... Hampton Court.... even Windsor!!
Was there someone in Windsor... Hmmm
Remember.. Windsor, Berks...Eton is Bucks.
Added.....who was Sunningdale, that's near there.
Surrey, Berks,Bucks... all in this corner.
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Scrapping the barrel..... pic ;D
Marriages Dec 1896
Bird Frederick William
Emson Charles Whitbourn
Farr Elizabeth Flora
Smith Margaret Ella
Kingston 2a 653
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yes the windsor coopers are all thses coopers.the taylors were that way most of the time aswell.
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;) This belongs in there somewhere then......... pic
Marriages Jun 1901
BIRD Robert
COOPER Lily
Ford Benjamin
SMITH Mary
Basingstoke 2c 461
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oooooooooooo :o
Is this anything.....
Marriages Dec 1912
Smith Selina
Samuel Cooper
Reading 2c 926
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definately!!!is it our bird taylor/cooper connection that i have been lokking for i wonder?since page one of this hunt no less!!!!!!
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these last few all connect i am sure.its the flippen connection we cant find!!!!!!help?i am going mad again!!!!!!!
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Marriages Mar 1912
Cooper Mary A Taylor
Taylor William H Cooper
Reading 2c 568
Marriages Jun 1896
Cooper John William
Hawkins Jessie Louisa
Kimber George Didn't Kimber come up.. or is he one of mine ???
Taylor Malinda
Reading 2c 778
Puta getting slow.. Looks like everyone has come online now. I keep getting mixed up with my Smith/ Bird/ Williams name combo... from round Wycombe/ Marlow area...
I'll have to check mine out. They might be related.... ;D :D
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I have just found this while searching, not sure if you have it already :D
1861 RG09 / 372 / 166 / 26
Edward Smith head age 51 b Kent occ hawker
Patience wife age 51 b Hythe, Kent, occ hawker
Caroline dau age 24, unmarried b ? occ hawker
Patience dau age 22, unmarried b Merley, Surrey, occ hawker
Henry son age 20, unmarried b ? occ hawker
Samuel son age 16 b Wandsworth, Surrey, occ hawker
Elizabeth dau age 14 b Wandsworth, occ hawker
Charlotte dau age 12 b Wandsworth, occ hawker
John son age 8 b Cornwall
Address Alma Road, Wandsworth
Also on same page Thomas Smith, wife Amy and family and also Tice family, all hawkers
Sue
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kimber definately comes into this and realted but irene knows about him not me i am afraid
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Marriages Dec 1847
Bird George Smith Let's hope he married Fanny, then we have a connection.........
LEWIS Ann
TAYLOR Fanny
Thompson James
Bromley (Kent) 5 105
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Incase it ties in somewhere sometime :)
1901 RG13 / 875 / 88 / 55
Edward Bacon head age 30 b Hastings, Sussex, occ Lic hawker
Mary wife age 31 b Burgess Hill, Sussex, occ lic hawker
Fred son age 4 b Hastings, Sussex
Samuel Cooper orphan age 7 b Lewes, Sussex
Address Caravan, Braggs Lane, Bexhill, Sussex
Also on same page are the Davis families, Mobey, Small Millish and Ripley families :D
Sue
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i am just too upset at the moment to post anymore.some horrible folk have driven the passing through site off the web.jackie is closing it down.i and others are going to be so upset by this?why cant jealous folk leave things alone.i thought you would all like to know whats happening.copy your research notes from there folks a.s.a.p.i dont think we can change her mind this time.can anyone else take it on?
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Oh im so sorry to hear that Cathay, hope you can all sort something out :( :(
Sue
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:o Leave the site going.... that's what they want....... :-\ ..... more people will join against trash
It can only get stronger with things like this............ 8)
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:D Where is George Smith Bird in 1851....... or '61 come to that..... :-X
Birth ??? ???
Jun 1855
Bird George Smith Bromley 2a 193
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Here he is in 1861 Les :)
RG9 / 462 / 17 / 34 in Beckenham
George Smith Bird head age 38 b Stonston, Wilts, occ coachman
Fanny J wife age 44 b Mere, Wilts
John B son age 8 b Beckenham, Kent
Joseph son age 4 b Beckenham
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;) Wahoo. so Fanny Taylor is now a Smith Bird.......and from Kent on the way to the West country..... How does that grab you Cathay.... both ears I hope. 'Cause I'm being summonded/yelled at, to clear and lay table for dinner........... ::) ::) ::)
bbiab ;)
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On the question about Kimbers. Richard Kimber m Ada Taylor in 1877 Ada was another daughter of Jerimiah/Augusta and a sister to Atheliah. Also married in the same year was Christopher Taylor to Sarah Gaylor this Christopher was a brother to the two afore-mentioned sisters.
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Annette you mention a Matilda Capel do you know if she was the daughter of Mary Ann Capel nee Smith and William Capel?
Irene
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Hello Irene,
Which direction are these people.. Kimbers and Taylor from... :)
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Lesanne Richard Kimber married Ada Taylor at St Pauls Church Paddington Richards father was William Kimber a Coachman Adas father Jeremiah was a Horsedealer Richard said he was a carman. They were well known in the area of Nottingdale and lived in Tobin Street they had a daughter Kate who was a member of the Notting Dale Rugby Club and was well known for her spirited ways
Irene
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According to Isobella Taylor/Cooper/Smith Grandaughter Isobella married Victor Alfred Hunt, But I have three marridge certs of her and not convinced any of them are right, 1907, and 1905 and 1904
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i am just too upset at the moment to post anymore.some horrible folk have driven the passing through site off the web.jackie is closing it down.i and others are going to be so upset by this?why cant jealous folk leave things alone.i thought you would all like to know whats happening.copy your research notes from there folks a.s.a.p.i dont think we can change her mind this time.can anyone else take it on?
Its a shame as Jackie has provided a good source of help for others and all for free i for one would like to thank her for all her good work and for all the other folk who contributed records via Jackies site , as Jackie has posted it was not any action by any
one or individuals just a general descision she had come too so its a relief to know that it was not some kind of vendetta by anyone against anything Romany etc.
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obviously we are not going to go into long discussions here aboutpassing through.so i am posting jackies own words for folk to make up their pown minds,
Gypsies Passing Through
I have asked wetpaint to delete this site - therefore if you want any information that is on here please make sure you back it up asap. I don't know how long the site will remain up.
I started the site to help people and I am sick and tired of a few manipulative and selfish people affecting the experiences of everyone else.
Please do not contact me about this - I am not prepared to discuss it and I am giving up sharing any information I find - life is too short to get the amount of hassle I have since starting this site.
I wish you all luck with your research, but frankly, I will be pleased to be out of it
Jackie
i am sure we all thank jackie and wish her the very best in life possible.she has been such a help to many of us.
also has my scavenger hunt ends today i want to thank you all very very much indeed for all your hard work.it wasnt an easy one as we already had the easy answers and were looking for the odds and ends to tie it together.i am sure taylor researchers have got alot of extra in fo from this hunt.i know i have.just got to work my way through it now.
THANKYOU TO EVERYONE THAT HAS HELPED.YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT.
OF COURSE IF YOU FIND ANYTHING ELSE JUST ADD IT WE WILL STILL BE KEEPING AN EYE ON IT FOR A WHILE.CATHAYB
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Jackie also posted this so as to clear any confusion that may have been caused .
RE: Jackie blackman
Yesterday, 2:18 PM EST
"it seems like the same folk who have been attacking my site and some other gypsy based sites have got to jackie at last and she feels she can carry on no longer with the gypsies passingthrough site.you will i know join with me in wishing her all the very best in the future.she has been a star with a capital S.the rest of us will have to meet over on rootschat in the general room for travellers and carry on our research.its is so sad.someof us are still running sites and are not going to be beaten if we can possibly help it.i thought i should let you all know incase you havent been on her board today as you are my dear friends and i hope we will keep in contact one way or another.there is another very good board started but it is also under attack so dont know how long it will last either but there is a famly history section on it.if you care to try it.
"This has nothing to do with anyone who is attacking your site Cathay. It is the low level unpleasantness which has been going on right from the start. I'm just fed up with it I do not want to turn this into more than it is - I don't know what is happening on other sites and I don't really care to be honest. No one has "got" to me - I'm just fed up. Please don't assume things and then write as though they are the truth - so to repeat in case anyone isn't sure - this is not part of some vendetta against Gypsy sites, it's a few people who like to pregnant dog about others and I'm the sort of person who runs out of patience with it."
Just thought I would let folks know as there has been too much "assuming" going on .
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Cathay, as you're still getting information on your Hunt, I've started a new (continuing) thread for you.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,347949.0.html
As this one is on page 21 I'll lock it now.
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I'll put the new Scavenger Hunt on this thread as well, just to make sure.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,347990.0.html