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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Ebba on Monday 08 December 08 19:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone
Back on October 8th 2008 I started a posting on this forum called "Do you recognise this church?". It contained a link to some photos of a church on my 'Flickr' site.
One thing led to another and the thread went on for 23 pages and has now had something like 7,000 hits.
The church was (with some difficulty) identified as St Margaret's in Wolstanton, Staffordshire, but the reason for my posting was really to identify a large country house that was in the same photo album. I bought the album in Sussex some 20 years ago, and was simply curious to discover where it was. I thought that by identifying the church, it would be easy to then find the house! Little did I know!!
The very many kind people who helped me with my original query suggested I re-post the query under a new name, as the church is now identified but the house is still not. I think there are quite a few still keen to track it down. It's taken me weeks to get round to this as I had a disaster with my Flickr site and had to re-load everything.
Just to summarise what's already been discovered or discussed:
1. The house might be in Wolstanton, but might just as well be absolutely anywhere. The fact that we have not been able to find it there is suspicious.
2. It is probably associated with the Adams family of Wolstanton, wealthy earthenware manufacturers of the 18th & 19th centuries (and beyond), because...
3. ...the photos of the church contain the initials CJA who is probably Cecily Janet Adams, daughter of the family born in the 1860's. Cecily is also acknowledged as the photographer of some photos in a vast tome of family history by her brother Percy.
4. Percy included in his book a numbers of photos of houses associated with the family but none look like the 'Mystery House'. Some are included at the end of my Flickr entries.
5. All the photos I have posted on Flickr are from the album, but I have no way of knowing if they are connected. It is not impossible that Cecily photographed her village church and took the rest of the photos somewhere else.
Here is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30927575@N03/
Look forward to receiving any new help or comments.
Ebba
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Just to keep in contact now the other thread has finished. :D
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Hi All,
Here is the link to the previous topic - just so we don`t lose sight of it.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,333031.0.html
Love the new photos Ebba. 8)
Mo
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I'm just bookmarking this too. I just LOVE your photos Ebba and I prefer the way you have them displayed this time. ;D
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I'm just bookmarking this too.
Me too. I found the previous thread absolutely riveting!
:) Ann.
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Thanks all.
Also thanks to Mo for including that link to the previous topic, which I meant to do but forgot.
Fingers crossed for a result this time!
Ebba
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I'm struck by the pattern of chimneys at 'The Oaks' - is The Oaks the mystery house from behind but with taller chimney pots? Did we establish precisely where The Oaks was / is last time?
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The Oaks was in Wolstanton I think...because I saw that Watlands was in Porthill, which was the area on the census, just before The Oaks.
I don't think the picture of the Oaks, is it's back view. A picture like that would be the front view. I'd rule it out, because of the shape of the roof.
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I'm struck by the pattern of chimneys at 'The Oaks' - is The Oaks the mystery house from behind but with taller chimney pots?
Strangely enough this too drew my attention this morning and wondered if it was the rear of the house - conservatories were usually at the rear. However the pots are missing from the top of the chimneys and I don`t think they would have been removed at the time - not like today.
Hey ho!
Hands up everyone who could now do a conducted tour of Wolstanton and the surrounding area - especially from an aerial view. ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
Mo
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I havent got time to check myself right now ... but have you searched for modern photos of that house, which with the place names you have, you may well find on the Geograph site ?
http://www.geograph.org.uk/
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Hands up everyone who could now do a conducted tour of Wolstanton and the surrounding area - especially from an aerial view. ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
Mo
I think I'm probably also an authority on the history of the area, courtesy of g**gle books, LOL
Buckaroo
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Oh yes! And to think I'd never even heard of Wolstanton until about 2 months ago.
I would even have been hard-pressed to place Staffordshire on a map of England (sorry, yes I am a bit of a softy southerner!).
Having ploughed through Percy's book a few times I have to say I also know more than I ever wanted to know about the history of the pottery industry.
Ebba
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Found "The Oaks" - long demolished. Newcastle under Lyme Borough Council lists planning applications NNB10058 and NNB10401 for "Erection of 17 detached dwellinghouses and garages on the sites of The Oaks and Dorrington, Porthill" - these houses are now called Dorrington Grove, and from the aerial view I'd guess they were built in the 1970s or 80s. But look to the east of Dorrington Grove - there's clearly remnants of landscaped gardens including a lake. Hmmm...
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Found "The Oaks" - long demolished. Newcastle under Lyme Borough Council lists planning applications NNB10058 and NNB10401 for "Erection of 17 detached dwellinghouses and garages on the sites of The Oaks and Dorrington, Porthill" - these houses are now called Dorrington Grove, and from the aerial view I'd guess they were built in the 1970s or 80s. But look to the east of Dorrington Grove - there's clearly remnants of landscaped gardens including a lake. Hmmm...
... also Oaklands Grove to the south of the parkland. However, www.old-maps.co.uk appears to show that house as Port Hill House.
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1911 Cecily Janet Adams was at Moreton house Church lane woolstanton.
Definatly not our house it is the one mentione earlyer now flats.
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Well at least that clarifies it .... :)
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Hi Ebba
This book would be worth a look if your library could get hold of a copy for you
http://www.leekonline.co.uk/media/authors/landmark/index.htm
Jan ;)
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I'm struck by the pattern of chimneys at 'The Oaks' - is The Oaks the mystery house from behind but with taller chimney pots? Did we establish precisely where The Oaks was / is last time?
The path that goes around the perimeter of The Oaks is also similar to that of the "side" of the Mystery House. I also note the garden and trees sort of seem similar. I am no expert though.
But yes, the chimneys are somewhat similar.
I believe many of these photos were taken at different times too (apart from the obvious one with the Carriage in).
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Hello everyone
Good to see this topic hasn't completely died.
For just £14.99 I might actually buy that book and see if there's anything likely in it.
Yes the differences in time between the photos taken has been noted in the previous thread (apart from the church in the snow of course!). Of the 2 of the house front - with carriage and without - one has flowers in the border and a garden bench, while the other has not.
Ebba
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I also think the ones taken of the "side" could be taken at a different time as well. It's just a hunch. The windows don't seem to fully match... but that could just be me matching the wrong parts of the house up.
The side views show the steps and that abutment. Now there's a similar abutment showing on the front view of the house but the windows behind it do not match those on the side view.
Or have I got the perspective all wrong?
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did the exciting search for this house that ensued last year just peter out to nothing in the end? the search for the church and the discovery of wolstanton was fascinating at the time..... pity we never did find out where it was.
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Hi fmni
Yes I'm afraid it did all come to nothing. VERY disappointing after all the interest it got at the time. I can only assume that house is now gone and forgotten, such a shame.
Ebba
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Well - this is an old thread resurrected!
Are you still active on this site I wonder?
I am fairly sure I know where this house once stood.
Here is the link to my message regarding the boundary wall / carriage entrance:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30927575@N03/3070840832/
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Hi,
Yes, I am still here and often look back and remember this thread and how busy it kept us for a while.
I have to go to work but will read your post later.
Thanks staffsuk
Linda X
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Hiya Staffsuk,
Welcome to RootsChat!
Is it possible please for you to attach your image please (use the "Attachments and other options" when you press reply)? That would be great, because some of the old flickr links don't work :-[
Trystan
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Hi Staffsuk
Welcome to Rootschat :D
How exciting after all this time. The gateway as you say is a perfect match- I hope Ebba, whose thread it is but hasn't been around since 2010, still gets alerts of new replies and comes back to see :D
Jan ;)
The Flickr photos are working fine for me Trystan ???
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Hi Staffsuk,
Welcome to RootsChat
I was just looking at the reply you have posted on Ebba's photograph, they were uploaded to flickr in 2008 lets hope that she is still using the same email address.
If you post your reply on RootsChat, we can always check that the user is picking up new replies :)
I like photograph mysteries!
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi all
Warning - this is a long reply ;D
I'm just glad some people can remember the thread. I actually saw the pictures Ebba posted on Flickr a while back - but couldn't think where the house could have been. It was when I was looking for something else recently I came across the pictures again - and the 'wall' picture suddenly sparked a idea of where I thought it could be - just a few hundred yards from where I live.
I'll post what I posted on Flickr here - somewhat edited as I went for a cycle to the location today to take some pictures:
I'm fairly sure I know where this is! I think this is the carriage entrance to a large house which was called 'The Limes'. It was situated on First Avenue in Porthill - not far from where I live. The house was empty and derelict for some time and eventually demolished 30 or so years ago. The land was developed into a small housing estate suitably called 'The Limes'. There were a few large houses like this in the area - and although most have been demolished - some remnants remain by way of surviving boundary walls and entrance piers / caps.
I had a hunch about this photo - given the size of house and the long straight road - and knowing that the walls & piers had survived the development I was thinking of. So I had a look on Google Maps (quicker than walking there!). This confirmed my thoughts so I cycled along this morning to take some pictures.
OK - Here is the original picture of the road & entrance posted by Ebba
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/10572938245_4c7225c645_o.jpg)
Here is the picture I took this morning
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3695/10573002624_5cf6162774.jpg)
A front view
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7293/10572935915_db439bc7f0_z.jpg)
A zoom into the original photo
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/10573218233_cd19d6c3a7_o.jpg)
A closer view of the wall & pier today
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/10572976846_62a2f251dd_z.jpg)
If you look at the wall abutting the left pier - you will see it looks to be a match - six oblong stones high & topped with coping stones. The wall to the right pier today is a more modern contemporary affair - possible erected in the 50s / 60s. Notice also the lower two stone courses in the original photo show slightly thicker stones than the upper four courses. This ties with how the wall looks today - albeit the lowest course is obscured given the pavement height has been raised over the years.
The height of the pier base is also a match - finishing roughly at the top of the second row of wall stones.
Check out the carved rebate on the inner face of the piers - it again looks like a match! Looking again at the zoomed original photo - look at the vertical details inside the carved area - I suspect these were the gates & supports just visible - and you can see the gate supports on the piers today at the same height inline with the coping stones.
The pier caps look like a match too - albeit the spheres are no longer there. However there are metal posts which would have supported these as can be seen here
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7408/10572976566_89ed2ce484_z.jpg)
The road looks to be First Avenue to me - and in the original photo you can make out Porthill Bank in the distance. You can also see the main entrance to 'The Limes' further along - this exists today and forms the main entrance to the housing estate.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3736/10572935885_c46301a9f3_z.jpg)
I had a word with the guy clearing his drive. He said he had been shown some pictures of the house some years back. I showed him the picture Ebba posted of the house and he immediately said 'yes that's the one!'
Note also in the original photo - the road ends and becomes a path through grass. This would be correct as the road was only continued when further houses were built in the 30's / 40's. Take a look at some old maps on http://www.old-maps.co.uk (http://www.old-maps.co.uk) using the postcode ST5 8QX and the address '12 The Limes' to see how the house & gardens were laid out - and how the estate developed over the years (1:500 & 1:2500 maps).
The maps show the plan of the house - and a wing to the right which was added later. RichardK made some very interesting observations in the original thread about the planform of the house - the orientation of the gardens and the added wing all of which tie in looking at the maps over the years.
I'm almost certain our local library and planning department will have pictures of 'The Limes' somewhere in their archives. I can check if you like.
Hope you found this interesting - and it would be great if Ebba were to find this thread again :)
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Welcome to rootschat StaffsUK.
I too remember these threads. We all love trying to solve these mysterries. I am convinced you have identified the correct location of the building - great detective work. :)
It's slightly sad to think about these grand old buildings of the past - now gone. :( Just a couple of gate posts remain to remind us ...
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Thanks for the welcomes - and yes I do like a bit of detective work ;)
Would it be allowed to post some screen grabs of Maps from old-maps.co.uk? They have the copyright notice embedded in them. I just wanted to add some weight to my findings with the planform of the house on the maps in relation to the photo of the front elevation ;D
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Hi Staffs,
Yes some great sleuthing :)
The images would be copyright of old maps so you would not be able to post them, but a link would be great ;D
Ebba's emails are working fine, oh she is going to be so pleased!
Sarah :)
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Hi Sarah
I do hope Ebba receives the messages!
I couldn't post links direct from old-maps.co.uk :(
Now go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk (http://www.old-maps.co.uk)
In the search field type ST5 8QX - then click on '12 The Limes' in the results field. Now click on the 1879 town plan map on the right - scale 1:500 - it's the map at the top of the results list. You will have to wait a short time whilst the image resolves properly. You can then click on the image to zoom into the map. In this first map you will see the plan of the house with the entrance as per the photo above - also too the left side wing set back - and the projecting bay window on the photo to the right side elevation - again this shown on the plan.
So - Below is a photo of the front elevation of the house posted by Ebba
Also note the buildings to the left of the photo which are marked on the map. Even more convincing - in the photo ahead of the main entrance on the lawn look at the circular flower bed & urn to the left of the entrance - and the square flower bed & urn in the foreground - and the other flower bed just showing on the left side of the photo - all marked on the map!
Pictured below also is the projecting bay window - and some steps leading down to another part of the garden - again marked on the first map
Now click on the 1899 Pre-WWII 1:1250 map. Again wait a while for the image to resolve and then click again to zoom in. You will see here the right wing which was added later - and pictured in the photo. This later addition was picked up by RichardK.
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Fabulous staffsuk, brilliant detective work ;D
I love these "where is it?" threads and it is so nice to see one solved after so long. I do hope Ebba pops back to see.
Jan ;)
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This is brilliant, I so often think about this thread. It has been Rootschat at its best. Great detective work.
XX
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Well done Staffsuk, brilliant work! In 1861 The Limes was home to Enoch Wedgewood and family, Earthenware manufacturer :D. RG9 1921 Fol 3 Pg 4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Wedgwood
Jool
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Sydney Malkin, J.P., lived at The Limes from around 1910
http://www.thepotteries.org/federation/052_malkin.htm
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I copied this from Linmey's post no 103 in the original "church" thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=333031.100
"According to the 1881 her father was William Adams born in Liverpool and a JP and Earthenware Manufacturer. Ceclily had 3 younger brothers (all like Cecily born in Wolstanton) and there are 4 servants listed. Their house though is listed in 1881 as The Oaks so guess they moved between then and 190I wonder if any of those servants are in the photos?? Intriguing!"
Cecily's father was a JP and earthenware manufacturer, as were residents of The Limes
Jool
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Excellent bit of work. Rootschat working at its best - even if it takes five years!
Well done Staffsuk.
Richard.
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What lovely pictures of a beautiful old house. Such a shame these lovely buildings have been demolished.
Chris
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StaffsUK - brilliant work, great links, easy to follow explanation/directions!
I am so happy that the house has been identified, but more sad than I can say that such a beautiful building has gone. Somehow it is even sadder to see it marked on the old maps and to know what it used to be. :'(
Do we know the reason for the demolition?
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Thank you all for the kind comments ;D
I am currently compiling what I know about the demise of the house. I will likely post a follow-up with my findings. I have a friend who remembers the house as a child - and he used to play around / inside it when it was derelict. We never even dared to venture up the drive as kids - it was reputed to be haunted - and as such we were scared stupid of it! A planning application was placed to convert it into apartments - and subsequently a hotel in 1969. Both were accepted. Alas the economics probably didn't add up as was often the case with these grand urban houses. The large grounds in which they stood were far more valuable as development potential. This has happened to most - but not all of the large residences which stood on First & Second Avenue. One example still stands that has been converted into flats - and another is now inhabited by an insurance company. It should also be noted that mining works have caused a lot of subsidence in this area - and a number of large houses have succumbed over the years.
So the house may well have been found - but might we have a struggle now to find Ebba :o
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Ah the 60s - era of poor taste and extensive demolition. ::)
I will be interested to know what you find out about this grand house. If subsidence was the reason for it's demoliton then, though still sad after seeing those photographs of it in it's heyday, I suppose that is, in a way, more 'acceptable'/understandable. :(
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Its very sad, having seen all the pictures of it in its hey day, full of life, and not that long ago for it to have fallen into decay so quickly. Its an amazing to be finding all this out after 5 years.
Thank you for all your hard work Staffsuk.
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Like Ebba, I haven't been frequenting these boards in a long time but was fascinated by the original postings re the church and house and even worked on a family tree on the Adams of Wolstanton at the time - should have it backed up and will cross reference any of the names of residents of 'The Limes' mentioned here.
Hopefully Ebba will re-appear, the email notifications brought me back so I'm sure if being received at her end, it will prompt her into a wee return also :)
Off to try and find the family tree of the 'Wolstanton Adams'....
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OK - this will be an embarrassing post!!! :-[
Whilst researching the houses fate - I came across a reference to the house in an old picture postcard book. Well - I'm embarrassed to say it's a book I've had sitting on my shelf since 1987!!
I had just not thought to even look in it - oh well ;D
So as final confirmation if any were needed - the mystery house is indeed 'The Limes'!
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Tee hee I bet you are kicking yourself staffsuk but these things happen. What a brilliant picture though. Its a gem. :)
L XX
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I do feel a bit daft - but I haven't picked that book up for over 15 years. Still - I enjoyed the chase!
It is likely the album of photographs in Ebba's possession could have belonged to the Malkins. I looked in some electoral registers - and the Malkin family were still there in 1933 - and by 1949 it had been split into two residences. I have yet to check all the registers & council archives to piece the jigsaw together.
However - still no response from Ebba? How ironic would it be after all these years if Ebba were not to see the mystery solved :(
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Its interesting to see the 2 pictures together, and wow doesn't that ivy grow!! It was probably fashionable to have ivy clad houses in those days and now I fight to keep it off my house every year. ;)
I think you are right about the album. I wonder if there are still any Malkin`s in the area?
Now how can we track down Ebba? Its a tricky one. I wonder if Rootschat admin could help or have any extra info on her e mail details.
Linda. X
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It's lovely to see the family and the old car in the second photo. Sydney Malkin would have been about 44 and his wife Edith, about 45. They had four sons aged from 17 to 9 at that time.
My husbands grandma was called Alice Malkin, but I don't think she was any relation. Malkin is a fairly common name in the area.
Chris
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Still no sign of Ebba :(
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Still no sign of Ebba :(
What a shame - I'm sure she would have been delighted to find her puzzle solved after so long. Maybe she is currently away and out of email contact.
Jan ;)
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Well done Staffsuk, brilliant work! In 1861 The Limes was home to Enoch Wedgewood and family, Earthenware manufacturer :D. RG9 1921 Fol 3 Pg 4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Wedgwood
Jool
The Pall Mall Gazette .June 4, 1879
Death .
Wedgewood. Enoch. JP county of Stafford , at the Limes, Wolstanton. Aged 65 . May 29.
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Still no sign of Ebba :(
What a shame - I'm sure she would have been delighted to find her puzzle solved after so long. Maybe she is currently away and out of email contact.
Jan ;)
Her profile page says she was active 30 minutes after you posted above. Otherwise I would have let her know through face book.
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Just spotted the same thing. I wonder if she is not receiving notifications for this topic? Just sent her a PM.
Mo
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I hope she turns up soon. I would love her to see all this.
L x
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Hello everyone, Ebba here!
Sorry for the delay in contacting you and many thanks to all who have been sending me messages. As you see I'm still around at the same email address, only in the throes of moving house (well, trying to anyway) so definitely more than a bit stressed which is why I've been slow off the mark to reply.
BUT...how really exciting that the house has been found!!! Very well done for spotting it. So StaffsUK, given that the postings were so long ago, how did you remember it when you saw the picture?
Don't know what else to say really...I am just a bit stunned that my original posting (was it 2008? I'm not sure now) caused such interest and went on for so long - but what a result. Wouldn't it be great to know whose photo album it actually was, and how on earth it ended up in a junk shop in Sussex. I'm wondering now if maybe I should donate it to a Staffs library or local history archive. What do you think?
Cheers
Ebba
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Hi Ebba,
I can`t believe that this thread was started five years ago ::) , just loved it, but great to know that you are still on Rootschat ;D My thoughts are with you regarding moving house - we moved 18 months ago and it was quite stressful. However, I wouldn`t swap back as I just love it here now.
Regarding the album, like you suggest it may be worth contacting a local history society or the Staffs archives. I am sure it would be very gratefully received.
Mo
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Hi Ebba,
So glad you are back on Rootschat and able to share in the amazing research by StaffsUK.
I am moving house next year so please don't tell me its too awful. I am dreading it!!! :(
I think the album would be a wonderful resource to have in Staffs. I agree with mosiefish.
I hope your move goes well.
LXX
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I am fairly new to Rootschat so I wasn't part of the original thread although I have read it all since. It's an amazing story and great news that the mystery has been solved.
Staffordshire Past Track is a great website http://www.staffspasttrack.org.uk/
It has lots of old pictures of Staffordshire on there. It is run by the County Museum. If you go onto their website it gives contact details. I'm sure they would be very interested in the album
Chris
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Hi Ebba :D
So glad you came back to see the mystery solved - and indeed I sympathise with your house move - having done it a couple of times myself :(
I have an interest in local history - mainly the buildings and architecture. I saw your post and the pictures quite some time ago whilst searching online for something unrelated. I didn't immediately recognise the house - and the image of the street eluded me too. I concluded the house must have been elsewhere and not in our neighbourhood. It was only recently whilst searching again for something unrelated - I came across this thread & your pictures again. I thought the only way I could identify the house would be to identify the picture of the street. I thought about all of the long straight roads we have - and there aren't that many - and then out of the blue it dawned on me where it might have been! The rest is history (earlier in this thread) about how I identified the street and the house :)
I have just set up a Facebook page about our area - its past & present. I posted the images of the house - and amazingly one person responded who actually lived in the upstairs part of the house for a short while. Others have posted who remember the house - and one lady (a girl at the time) who used to call in to meet a friend who lived there. The house was demolished for redevelopment later than I thought - in the late '80s. I understand it was terribly run down - empty and derelict towards the end. The gardens were massively overgrown (you couldn't ever see the property from the road to my knowledge) and the house was vandalised and played in by the local kids. Alas I never got to see the house myself even though it is literally just a few hundred yards from where I live!
It is a great shame the house was demolished - and it has happened to many of the large urban houses standing in large grounds here. The land was simply worth an awful lot more for redevelopment to build an estate of houses as I'm sure is the case everywhere in this country. There are nearly 40 houses on the original plot of The Limes - and the field behind the original house now has houses & a large apartment complex built on it. You can see the map of the area here https://www.google.com/maps?ll=53.039078,-2.221084&spn=0.002151,0.003921&t=h&z=18 (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=53.039078,-2.221084&spn=0.002151,0.003921&t=h&z=18)
Quite how the album landed in a junk shop - who knows... My guess would be it belonged to a relative of a former owner of The Limes living in your area. I guess when they passed away the contents of their house were removed by a house clearance company. It could well have been cleared by the junk shop owner?
I was going to offer to buy the album from you ;D - but I agree it would perhaps be better if it went to a local archive. I would suggest the archive department at Newcastle Under Lyme library. Porthill is in the borough of Newcastle Under Lyme - so it would be the logical resting place for the album. They have a great archives department - with a catalogue of local photographs which are available to view on request. I checked recently and there are no pictures of The Limes - so it would be a wonderful addition to the Library - and would also allow people to gain access and view the pictures for themselves. Indeed I would love to be able to hand the album over to the chief archivist along with this story :)
All the best
C.
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Hi Staffs
Yes moving house is in the top 3 stressful life events I think! We have done it before but never with such problems - ah well the end is in sight I hope.
I should have read the thread more carefully as I see you did say how you came to identify The Limes.
Quite astonishing. Apart from the tragedy of so many lovely old places falling into ruin and being demolished it is quite surprising how quickly local memory fades. Some land once owned by my grandparents and their ancestors was sold for building in the 1960's and one of the new roads named after them. A fairly recent street guide for that place supposedly lists the derivation of the street names, but for that road (because the surname is also a place name) the author merely writes 'this street is either named after the village ABC in the county of X, or the village of DEF in the county of Z'. I wonder if the author actually did any research at all, as it's all well within living memory. So at one blow my ancestors' existence and contribution to that area is completely wiped out.
But back to the album, I would be happy to give it to you if you would like it - you seem a genuinely interested person that I could entrust it to (and local which is equally important). If you wanted to pass it on to the local archive, along with the story, that would be good as well. I'm sure the archive would like it but would they really be genuinely interested in the story behind it? I think that if this is what you do then you should write out the full story of 'How The Limes was identified' and affix it in the album.
Next year after I have unpacked and finally retrieved it from whatever box it's in perhaps I can pass it over to you. Is there a way we can get in touch person to person? Would the moderator do this if asked? And last question, where do I find the Facebook page you mentioned?
Regards, Ebba
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Ebba, it's good to see you ack on rootschat. I think that it is very kind of you to offer the album to StaffsUK who I agree would be a worthy recipient, as someone who cares for the history of their local area. It's a great ending to the story and I am happy that in some way the house will live on.
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Hi Ebba
Yes I quite agree it is amazing how the memory of places fades all too quickly. There were a number of substantial premises here in a relatively small village - Watlands Hall - Porthill House - The Oaks - which were as grand and some more so than The Limes. These & many more have disappeared and are now housing estates. You would never know in many cases what stood before as nothing remains of their former life.
It was partly because I had identified your mystery house that I set up the Facebook page - to inform people about our past architectural heritage. Well since I set it up on 2nd November - we've had over 400 likes and a massive responce! You can reach it by searching for the wolstantonandporthill page on facebook.
I am so very honoured that you wish to gift the album to me :o
Indeed I do have a great interest in our local buildings and architecture - none more so than those we have lost over the years. I will indeed write up how the album was found and the house eventually identified. I wonder if you can remember the junk shop where you found it? I would be happy to pay for the post and cost of the album. I feel too it would be right that it was eventually donated to our local archives for future generations - so it isn't 'lost' again :)
I will send you a private message - you can check your messages from the 'My Messages' tab above.
Wishing you all the best for your move - and as little stress as possible!
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Hi Ebba
Yes I quite agree it is amazing how the memory of places fades all too quickly.
It came to me last night that houses also have souls and never die. The old 1955 film "The Ship That Died of Shame" was based on that theme. I do know that every thing that has ever happened is all recorded somewhere and can be recreated and when you follow it through and consider qantum mechanics it all makes sense. All matter above absolute zero has movement, with particles flying around in their zillions. So whilst a house would seem to be solid and devoid of life it does like everything else consist of leptons electrons photons etc and these are made up of vibrating waves.
As for memory it too never really dies. Just consider the case of the late Gwen McPherson who recalled her life as Rose Duncan from 200 years ago. When they took Gwen to England and to Somerset she broke down when she found her old cottage.
The Limes will still be around somewhere. It is just a question of putting on the right glasses when you look for it. In the meantime it has certainly made itself known in these pages.
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It's a nice thought, Malcolm. I hadn't heard of Gwen McPherson but will look her up.
Ebba
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The story of Gwen McPherson was part of Peter Ramster's research some 30 years ago. There was a film shown on tv, but you can now find it on youtube. Gwen's story begins in Part 9 here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_JrakDTonc then goes on in parts 10 and 11.
It is also all in the book by Peter Ramster "In Search of Lives Past". The clincher is the stone slab which Gwen drew under hypnosis in Sydney. She had never ever left NSW until they took her to England. Everything that happened was filmed and witnessed. After she found her cottage, she then led the team across fields to a river or canal where she had once walked and stopped at a row of 7 cottages. She found them but only 2 remain, fortunately the one that she had been invited inside and sat all that time ago looking down at the stone floor. The farmer now uses the old cottages for his hens and the floor had been covered for at least a hundred years. They were allowed to clean it out, and there beneath a century accumulation of muck was the stone with the same markings that Gwen drew in Sydney.
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Wow! I hope I don't get into trouble for bumping this thread but I haven't been around for a while. I am thrilled that Staffsuk eventually identified the house, being one of the people who was so caught up in the original thread and tracing the mystery! Brilliant work and so glad we were on the right track all those years ago!
Now I want to know more about the Limes and how the photo album ended up in Sussex...argh mysteries!
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Hi Meriel
Yes, great isn't it? But I think we will never know how the album got to Sussex!
Cheers,
Ebba
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Hello, this is a long standing chat but I am fascinated to find pictures of the house I grew up in with my two brothers and sister. My mother moved there from a printing business in Burslem in approx 1965 and we all lived there until the early 80's.
Thank you to those who took the time to post pictures.
Paul Marshall
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Hi Paul
How amazing! Have you only just seen the photo?
It must have been paradise for a small child, a big house and all that garden. Do you know what date it was demolished?
Regards
Ebba
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Hello and Yes! Literally just saw it on Sunday and just stared at it for ages. I can't thank you enough for posting this and starting off a fascinating chat.
The Limes was my whole world for the first 14 years, I climbed every tree and had the greatest childhood. The landlord, one Mr King, was getting older and the place started to fall into disrepair.
What is particularly poignant is the front door. I can recall my father coming in on a brutally cold March day. Winters then seemed so cold, we used to have frost on the inside of all the windows. I thought that was normal! Anyway, he came in and collapsed there in front of me. It was the winter of discontent when all services were on strike. He had waited 6 months for an operation but his illness got the better of him. It was a sad loss because he was a senior RAF officer and survived 5 years of warfare in Bomber Command as a pilot. He was awarded two DFC's yet died just inside that front door. The sense of loss has stayed with me since hence the shocked and joy of seeing that picture.
I think it was demolished finally in the mid 90's. I found a picture of it (prompted by your post) of The Limes after a fire. Whether that was from vandalism or perhaps insurance reasons! I can't comment but its gutting to see the burnt wood thrown from the window. I'll try to add the pic here. The front room on the right had the most extraordinary oak paneling and the doors were vast works of art. If they all burnt they some history was truly lost that day.
I notice now there's a housing estate there now. The houses are nicely made and fit in well but there seem to be so many where once there was just one. Incredible.
I'm babbling away here. Thank you so much, its enquiring minds like yours that make the internet an extraordinary tool.
Regards
Paul
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The Limes following a fire. A great shame given the interior was full of carved road doors and floor to ceiling panels. PM.
Please click on the link to see the photograh taken after the fire, it is the 5th one titled "The Limes, Porthill soon after the fire"
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Way-Unseen-Newcastle-Lyme-Neil-Collingwood/story-22919062-detail/story.html (http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Way-Unseen-Newcastle-Lyme-Neil-Collingwood/story-22919062-detail/story.html)
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Welcome to rootschat Paul.
A very poignant story. Seeing the destruction of that beautiful house breaks my heart. :'(
I can't explain it, but for some reason that house and this thread are regularly in my thoughts - there is just something about it which has resonated with me - it has real soul.
I was only thinking about the original photos of this house a week or so ago unrelated to anything. ::)
I so envy you your time in this house.
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Hi Just stumbled across this page ,i lived in a flat in 1982- sh and was the last to live there before it was demolished (it was split into flats in the late 70's early 80's i believe) looking at the house from the front i had the top right flat , i believe it was the servant living area in the old days, the house belonged to a guy named MR King i believe he lived in Sutherland road or drive in the westlands , just before i left i believe he issued none payment eviction orders to the people still living there so he could sell to the developers,i used to attempt to pay him my rent but was allways told pay me next week now i know why lol , anyway i did have access to the rest of the house and it still maintained a lot of the original wood panelling and tiles etc throughout the building also the kitchen where like going back in time , the bathroom in my flat was old blue and white tiles that where rely old
Cav
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Thank you Cavyn. That's fascinating. Such a shame it was demolished.
Lin
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Welcome to rootschat Cav. Thank you for telling us what you remember about the house. It sounds lovely. So sad it is gone .... :'(
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Hi All,
I came across this post by accident searching for photos of Burslem and the post war potteries.
I spent most of my childhood in that house from mid '60's up until 1980.
It was typical of houses in First and Second Avenue, mansions really, inhabited by the wealthy of the day.
When I knew it it had already been converted into flats of varying sizes, the two largest 1&2 occupying most of the two floors you can see from the photos of the front elevation of the house. Other smaller flats 3,4,5 were formed from the block that extended to the rear of the right hand side elevation, past the formal garden. There was a carriage block (2 more flats) that was to the rear of the main house, found by following the drive round to the left, and there were garages/workshops there also.
Further back still, there was yet more land holding an orchard and as the land fell away down the bank to another drive and separate garage. It is this drive that is shown in the photo, but there were two others.
The main drive was reached by turning from First Avenue into the front corner of the plot and wound it's way up to the front of the house before working round to the stable block at the rear. The middle driveway led up to yet another garage/workshop directly from the Avenue and bordering the formal garden. There may have been some other working structures between the two further driveways, and to the rear of the property at some point, but only the foundations remained.
How much land the estate held in the past I don't know but it was still substantial when we rented there. To the Avenue was a long wall of the material shown in the photo, big limestone dressed blocks (hundreds of them), and each entry had large capped pillars as shown which framed large metal gates.
The houses of this period were designed to accommodate the 'family' and a sizeable 'staff', and you could easily tell from from the aspect of the room which part of the establishment it had belonged to. Converting to flats had jumbled them up so you had a mix of each, particularly in flats 1&2 which had the main family rooms.
Entering the large front door there was a tiled hall with high ceilings, reception rooms left and right, the big windows you can see. The one to the right had the wood panelling referenced earlier (I think it was oak) with a large fireplace. This was mirrored to the left without the panelling, and above these were the family rooms on a similar scale. These would have been reached by an impressive staircase, but because of the conversion only the top part was accessible from Flat 2, the lower level flights had been removed to the now Flat 1.
The further back you went into the property the more you moved into the staff quarters, including the kitchen on the ground floor (Flat 1) which overlooked the stable blocks and kitchen gardens at the rear. I think the AGA may have been vintage :)
It must have been something to see in it's heyday, but was typical of houses of the time that are (were) jotted about Porthill, Wolstanton and Newcastle, the Brampton for instance and Second Avenue had a number of similar houses as mentioned.
Facing away from the front door was a large lawn and grounds, that may have been larger at some point but even then were substantial and full of mature trees, including some very large lime trees. Put it this way, it was a reasonable jog around the perimeter. There was also an empty piece of ground on the same scale directly adjacent to the property, between it and second avenue, whether it was or had been part of the estate who knows, paddocks maybe.
Looking back I don't think we realised what a strange place it was, a bit chilly and damp but then we were kids and ran riot in all that space. Extraordinary really.
My elder brother Jonathan Westlake still lectures at Staffordshire University, so for further details seek him out online.
Roger
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Welcome to rootschat Valeite. :)
Oddly enough I was thinking about this house a couple of days ago. It just popped into my head for some reason, so it is serendipitous that you should add your memories to the thread. It must have been amazing to live in such a place despite it having been “butchered” to some extent. The old bones would have been there and even as a child you seem to have had a sense of it’s past grandeur.
A wonderful house - it must have been amazing to live there. It still saddens me to think about it’s sad demise.
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I lived at "The Limes" between 1986 to 1987, it was pretty run down by then but there were around 7 of us living in the main house which was sectioned into 3 parts and another living in the house at the rear, which I presume was once servants quarters. It was still quite grand though, especially the main staircase and the long driveway leading you up to the front of the house which still looked impressive. I have fond memories of my stay there, which led me to find this link.
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Welcome Phil! :) This thread seems to have fizzled out somewhat, but nice that you have found it nevertheless, and thank you for your memories of living in this beautiful house.