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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Boongie Pam on Sunday 07 December 08 13:19 GMT (UK)
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Tried to google Lochmaben quarries but didn't find anything similar?
It looks like Flagg or Hlagg (not likely?)?
Does anyone know the Lochmaben quarries? This is the birth of James JArdine in 1797 to Alexander Jardine and Jean Sanders.
Pam
:)
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Hi Pam
maybe a look at a map for the appropriate time era could give the quarry name or a clue to the name.I agree with looks like Flagg or Hlagg and agree not likely :).I am origanally from that neck of the woods and nothing ringing any bells also asked a local in Lockerbie with good local knowledge still no bells ringing.Maybe the quarry name could be someones surname,try it with soundex.
Fiona
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Hi Pam,
Did you discover the quarry? I keep coming back to it and trying new variations in search, but nothing pops up.
Jamjar
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Nope nothing yet jamjar.
Though I've been diverted onto my bf's tree. A trip to the library anda chance to look at the big maps may help.
Thanks for asking :)
Pam
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Hi Boongie Pam,
Are there any other references on the doc?
It may not be Quarry !!
Corncockle Quarry is the only Quarry in Lochmaben taht I know of. Will require a search of the late 18th Century for any historic and now disused quarries I reckon.
Kojak :-)
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That is the line I was taking, also, Kojak.
If it is the month of June, then it's the 'a' in quarry that looks like the 'u' in June.
I checked one of my certs and the part that looks like the 'H' is part of a double 's' on mine.
Not an easy one.
Could it be the name of a house?
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
If the first letter is "s" could it be slag(g) quarry?
Isn't slag a term for waste quarried material?
Or perhaps it is the name of the quarry owner?
Interesting query...
Kojak ??? ???
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after another look i dont think its 'june' i think it says 'same' month ;D
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hi
could it say LAG/ LAGG quarry ?
there is a connection to lochmaben by that name
http://alastaircunningham07.blogspot.com/2007/04/sir-robert-grierson-of-lag.html
also 'lag' was a kind of mineral deposit that was quarried.
just a thought
spooky
;D
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Morning Kojak
Umm, yes it could be 'same'. Then it is likely 'quarry'.
Wonder if we could get a look see at a larger section of the certificate?
Jamjar
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Been looking at this off and on since Pam put it up.
It's definitely Quarry - could the first word possibly be Slagg (old style ff for s) :-\
Gadget
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I too have been lurking and looking at this thread :)
And Googling to try to find out the history of Corncockle quarry and whether it was ever known by any other name - including just a generic name. No luck.
I say a 'generic name' because I wondered from the start if it might be Flagg referring to a quarry where flags/flagstones were obtained - the 'ff' at the beginning being the old-fashioned way of representing an upper case 'F' and the double g just a quirky spelling of Flag.
Googling finds that Corncockle quarry does produce flagstones (i.e. paving stones) e.g.
"The sandstones of the Permian or Lower New Red are usually of red and purplish tints, rather open and soft in texture, and of no great durability. When carefully selected, however, both building-blocks and flagstones can be obtained from the formation, as may be seen at Lochar Briggs and Corncockle ..."
The only thing I could find about its history was that it must have been closed for a time (but for how long?) because there's a reference to Sir William Jardine having access to Corncockle Quarry on his estate; apparently he was fascinated by fossil tracks on the flat surfaces of the beds. And it says that he re-opened the quarry in 1847.
If it was referring to a quarry where flagstones were quarried, then perhaps it could mean Corncockle itself or perhaps there was a minor outcrop nearby which was also quarried for flagstones but in a smaller way ...
Just a thought.
Of course, it could be a name - but FLAGG seems to be a fairly uncommon name and virtually unknown in Scotland.
JAP
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Best suggestion so far, JAP.
I've just looked at the image on SP. The other captital Fs (February and Francis) on the page are written as F and singly. I suppose the clerk might have decided to revert to the old style for just that entry.
There was also a tendency to double some of the ending letters - e.g. Aprill
I think I'll go search out some more baptisms for this couple to see if it's repeated at all.
Gadget
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Corncockle is not the only quarry that existed in the area. Just down the road from it was Redhill Quarry (sandstone), Corsua Quarry to the northwest, and there were a number on Gotterbie Moor.
They are shown on here http://geo.nls.uk/os6inch/google.html yet not on many other maps. ???
No names on many as they were just labelled as Old Quarry on the maps I have seen so far. Those that were seem to be named after the nearest property.
Jap may have a point about the Flagstone idea. There must have been a good seam in those parts to have so many quarries all in a line.
Kirsty
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The previous baptism of a child of this couple was in 1795 and it says Quarryhouse.
I'll snip if anyone would like to see.
Gadget
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I would :)
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Here it is then:
I've also found a detailed F which I've included. The clerk seems to write them like this over the two pages that I;ve looked at except for that one entry - could it be a squashed/ hurried one
Gadget
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Yep, definitely quarry.
My take: Slagg Quarry
Could you get in touch with the quarry at Locharbriggs and ask them? They were very helpful when I had questions for them. They may have knowledge of other quarries in the shire.
Jamjar
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My money would be on it being slagg quarry...
Kojak ;D
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That's an excellent idea about getting in touch with the various extant quarries in the Lochmaben area!!
They may well know the history of quarrying in the district in general.
And the names of various old quarries (especially where a JARDINE family might have been).
And what the name posted from the parish register originally is likely to be.
Also where Quarryhouse might be.
And don't forget to query, as well, which quarries quarried flags/flagstones just in case ...
And, of course, whether there were any people or farms by name Flagg or Slagg or similar ...
Looking forward to hearing some responses!
All the very best to everybody researching this puzzle,
JAP
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OK - this may be a clue or it may not but we may as well look at all the evidence that we can muster.
I looked at the Old and New Statistical Accounts for Lochmaben but there was very little on the quarries - a ref to Corncockle and one other. The minister seemed to be more concerned with the agriculture and the Castle :-\
However, I then went back to the baptisms of Alexander Jardine's and Jean Saunders' children and looked at the earlier one (Margaret) in 1793. This one gives their residence as Bridgesmuir. This is still on the modern maps - to the North East of Lochmaben on the Nethercleugh burn.
Do any local people know if there are/were any quarries in that area?
Gadget
Added - just seen a Broomhill slack and a Broomhill quarry just NE of Lochmaben as well - slack -> slag, etc. Again, just throwing out some thoughts
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Hi,
I should, I lived in Lochmaben area for almost all my life (moved away in 2007).
I am in the process of looking at old maps. Can see plenty saw pits and sand quarries as well as disused quarries on 1861 maps. Still searching where this elusive slaggs quarry could be...
Kojak
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In the 1841 census there are still Jardines at Bridgemoor. Also enumerated is a place called Broadslack up at Templand (lochamben enum. dist. 1, folio 5 pg14). On the map next (OS 6 inch) to it unlabeled (but very obviously there) are quarry pits...
Kirsty
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On the 1861 map there is a Flag House just south of Lochmaben Moor
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Ladies and Gentleman,
Thank you a million times over for your efforts. Sincere apologies for my silence.I currently have limited access to RC, more time than technical dueto overwhelming work commitments. But I do thank you for all the ideas and Sancti I'll follow up with the mapson NLS as soon as possible.
Thanks,
Pam
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Hi Pam,
Sorry just read this thread; don't know why I missed it! Anyway double f means a capital in Scottish handwriting. Therefore it is Flag quarry, as in a quarry making Flags as suggested in an earlier in this thread.
This link will take you to the Scottish handwriting site, which is great, and answers this question for you.
http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLFf.asp
Hope this clears up this wee mystery.
Emma
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Hi Emma :)
As you say, JAP did say this a while back. However, I think that the problem that we then had was that every other captal F on the page was written in 'normal' style and trying to find a suitable building/place on any maps.
Gadget
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Great site Emma ;D
Flag house could be Quarry House, Gadget. It's worthy of further investigation.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar
Yes - looks as if Sancti found a good hit on the 1861 map :D
Well done :)
Think it's up to Pam now.
Gadget
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Hi Emma,
Yes, Boongie Pam suggested the possibility of Flagg Quarry in her initial post.
I mentioned 'ff' for 'F', and flags/flagstones in reply #11. Gadget (#12), however, found that the clerk normally used 'F' for upper case (rather than 'ff'); and she subsequently posted an example (#16). That didn't rule out 'ff' in the initial query example but also suggested that it might just have been a scrawled 'F'. Sancti found a Flag House (#23) in a 1861 map.
But I guess the jury is still out on the precise location of Flagg Quarry where Alexander JARDINE was living in 1797 when James was baptized. And also whether it's the same place as Quarryhouse where he was living in 1795 when a daughter was baptized.
Hi Jamjar,
I wonder if you are know about the RootsChat Reference Library at:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/index.php
It includes a useful Lexicon of Genealogical Terms, Phrases and Abbreviations
The Index to the Lexicon includes
*Old English in Wills
*Old Handwriting
and cross-references from
*Handwriting
*Palaeography
*Scottish Handwriting
*Secretary Hand
These link to RootsChat threads where the Scottish Handwriting site in mentioned, and where a couple of other excellent sites are also mentioned:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/
www.english.cam.ac.uk/ceres/ehoc
Regards,
JAP
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Thanks for those.
I'll add them to my 'to be viewed list'.
Jamjar
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On the 1881 census there is a Quarry Cottage occupied by the Craig family
1881 CRAIG Mary Female age 69 Dwelling: Quarry Cottage Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland
1881 CRAIG William Male age 61 Dwelling: Quarry Cottage Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland
1881 CRAIG William Male age 15 Dwelling: Quarry Cottage Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland
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The James Jardine you refer to is my GGGGrandfather. James Jardine married to Jean Jeffrey and was buried at Torthorwald, Dumfriesshire along with his parents. Don,t think I have looked at his birth certificate before .
Margaret
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