RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: nessieinspain on Saturday 06 December 08 22:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello all
I am tracing a freinds family but am stuck on
Reuben Rottstein a Tailor born c.1860 in Otelberg Germany I have him on the 1891 census mistranscribed but definately them as married to an Ada/Adelaide born Limehouse London 1863. They are also on the 1901 census.
I know his son Issac later got in trouble with the police for murder and stood trial at the Old Bailey. (he got 2 months!!) There was also another incident involving him and his father on record.
I have all of their children etc but the aim is to fine out from Reuben backwards. Does anyone know how I could go about it? I have searched the IGI & ancestry but not the world subscription so I'm not sure where else to go.
Thanking you all
Emma in Spain
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Hello Emma,
I'm hoping that I can help you (and your friend).
Reuben can only have been Jewish. That forename would not have been used by Christian Germans. I would even guess that his father was called Isaac.
I think I found him in the 1901 census - a 41-year-old tailor living in Limehouse - born in Otelberg however.
I find no mention (so far) of either Heilberg or Otelberg. Can you post snippets from the original census returns to this forum, so that I can read the placename?
Justin
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;D Hi Justin,
I have been trying to resize the census but for some reason it wont let me, I have looked again at it and think you are right it does look like Otelberg ;)
If you pm me your email I can send you the originals...on my 1901 he is 1st on the list.
We knew they were Jewish & I agree with you given naming traditions it is highly likely Reubens father was another Issac
Thanking you so much for your help
Emma in Spain (Where it's raining) :'(
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Hello Emma
My name is Sue Lighten nee Reuben. I am the great grandaughter of Reuben Rottstein.
Who are you tracing the Rottstein family tree for. Im afraid I can give you little information on my great grandfather Reuben Rottstein.
but would be very interested if you managed to find any information about the family in Germany, although I was told they came from Poland, but do not know if this is true. I look forward to hearing from you although I see your message was put on 2 years ago.
Yours Susan Lighten
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Hello Susan,
I had been helping Emma offline. However, we were unable to proceed as nobody could identify Reuben's birthplace.
Does the 1911 census record it in a clearly legible fashion?
Rgds,
Justin
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Hello Susan & Justin :)
Susan - sadly I no longer have the information on your family as I have passed on the evidence I had gathered to my friend. IF I remember rightly then you & my friend would be cousins. I have called him & left a message for him to get in touch with me as you are definately related.
I live in Spain just down the road from your relation so if you know any who live in Spain then you will be able to work out who I was looking for ;D
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Hello
As this was all so long ago, I'm presuming I've missed the boat but I too am researching this line
I have Reuben in the 1891, 1901 & 1911 but cannot find him in the 1881 or earlier
Not knowing when he arrived in the UK, it could be of course that he wasn't in the UK then
By the births of the children, it appears they lived in Gloucestershire twice and the East End in for the main part which would be fairly normal being a Jewish family
I have "some" information on them, not a lot but you're welcome to what I have if it would help you
Cheers
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Hi, Reuben Rottstein is my Great Grandfather on my grandmothers side. I'm wondering if this is a typo (or a writo) and the actual location of Reuben's birth could be Oldenburg. Seems they had some Jews in Oldenburg according to Wikipedia. Reuben was a German subject at the time of the 1901 census. Well, I'll keep looking around and see what I can find out.
My name is Ian Fresco, living in Sydney Australa
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G'day Ian
So sorry that I hadn't replied - had to get a new computer :'(
I've just looked up Oldenburg - must confess, I read it at Otelburg but you may well be right
May I ask whom your Grandmother is please? Have you gotten any further than anyone has posted on this site? I'm well & truly stuck with them!!
I'm still trying to find out when he arrived in the UK - any ideas?
Look forward to hearing from you when you can
Thanks!
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Which records shows his birthplace?
Could it read Ortelsburg?
Justin
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Hi, Regarding my grandmother (birth name Rottstein). Her first name was Clara, although it seems from different documents I've found she also went by the name of Clarice. Born around 1894 she married John Fresco (my grandfather on my father's side) in 1917. I remember her as a real East Ender and could speak cockney back slang. Looking at the dates that come up: Reuben was born around 1860 and he writes that he came from Germany several times in the different censuses (written in his own hand in the 1911 census). He married Ada in 1883 in London, but by 1884 they were in Bristol, evidenced by censuses stating the first born Abraham was born there. Interestingly enough Abraham seems to have changed his name to Albert according to the 1911 census. Getting back to Reuben. The only evidence of his birth town that I've found is the mysterious 1901 census where the census taker has written a name that would appear to be "Otelberg". I think the census taker probably wrote down what Reuben had told him as best he could-- as he heard it, and he thought he said Otelberg-- just some Londoner trying to figure out what this German fellow was saying (he described himself as a German Subject on the 1901 census). It seems to me any investigation into Reuben's birthplace must begin with this mysterious Otelberg place. So my best guess is that it's a place that sounds like Otelberg, but certainly in Germany. On the other hand Germany was not a federated state at the time of Reuben's birth, but why would he say that he was born in Germany if he wasn't?
He obviously came to England between 1860 (birth in Germany) and 1883 (marriage in London). I can't find many other Rottstein's in England in the 19th century, so my best guess would be he came to England around 1881 when he would be free (at 21) giving him time to woo Ada and be married 2 years later. All guess work, but seems logical.
All for now.
Ian
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Hi. I believe I've cracked the mystery of where Reuben Rottstein came from. The 1901 census plainly reads that he came from "Otelberg Germany" and that he was a "German Subject".
I believe he came from Ortelsburg East Prussia, which in 1871 became part of the German Empire during the unification of Germany. Reuben would have been 11 years old, and probably moved to England after he was 21-- so he would have been a German Subject for over 10 years when he emigrated! This city is now in Poland and was historically part of Poland-- giving credence to folks saying they heard their ancestors came from Poland.
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G'day Ian
I met your Grandmother Clara in 1965 I think it was - she was the sister of Albert Snr & I'm from that line (if I have the right Clara that is) as is my Cousin Susan (she posted on her a few years ago) but I've lost contact with her sadly
It would make more sense it being Ortelsburg, Poland but I must admit, I didn't think of it myself.
I cannot find when/where Reuben landed in the UK & like yourself, first evidence I have is Abrahams' birth but he was known as Albert all my life - and I cannot find his birth registered either - do you have it please?
Cheers
Gypsy
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Hi Gypsy, That's really interesting that you met my Grandmother. At that time she was living in the East End on Commercial Rd in a block of flats on the corner of the Wentworth St near Petticoat Lane. I remember when I was little my grandparents lived in Poplar, then moved to Putney, but by the 60s they would have been back in the East End.
I am not able to get any more information than you. I use "familysearch.org" and "myheritage.com" to glean any information I can plus anything else I can scrounge. I think the records are just not there on the internet maybe not anywhere. My dad moved out of the East End after the war, so we didn't get to know many of the relatives there. I imagine to dig any further you'd need to go to the records office in Kew or locally in the East End. Being in Australia I don't have that option.
Anyway, best wishes to you and yours, and let us know if you get any further.
Ian
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I've got some updated information on Reuben Rottstein or Rothstein.
I have located birth and marriage data from East Prussia from around 1878 which indicate the Rothstein family was living near Ortelsburg (now Szczytno)close to Willenberg (now Wielbark) in a village called Opalenietz (now Opaleniec). In Reuben's day this was the last village in the German Empire before Russia, but now in Poland. I have scans for Rothstein marriages and a birth from the local registrar all in German.
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Hello folks. I stumbled upon your messages while searching the web for your grandfather. Perhaps I should explain. I'm leading a team of members of the Guild of One-Name Studies researching the Ruby surname in celebration of the Guild's 40th birthday next year.
We had come across an Isaac Ruby, with wife and child, in the 1911 census. I won't bore you with all the details of how we tracked him down (I'm writing a blog post about it) but it is perfectly obvious that he was born Isaac Rottstein. I've been trying to figure out where the family was from and whether he was the only one to have chosen that name. I think he was. Do you know whether there has been any contact from his descendants back to the rest of his family? Just curious.
Regards
Paul Howes
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In case you are interested, here's what we think we know about Isaac:
http://ruby.one-name.net/getperson.php?personID=I8980&tree=Ruby
Paul
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Hi,
Regarding Isaac Ruby. I remember something about a great uncle Ike-- I guess the brother of my grandmother Clara Fresco ne Rottstein.
It seems to me a lot of people with foreign sounding names were changing them at the beginning of the 20th century. Isaac's brother seems like he changed his name from Abraham Rottstein to Albert Rottstein between 1901 and 1911. I never heard of anyone else in the family with the surname Ruby. Isaac's dad was Reuben so maybe Ruby is kind of an angliscisation? of Reuben to name his family after his dad's given name. Who knows.
One interesting thing is my uncle's (son of Clara) given name was Ruby. Don't know if that helps. But from my perspective I would guess all these Ruby names are in honour of Reuben Rottstein.
Best wishes,
Ian Fresco
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Thanks Ian. I briefly looked at the other members of that generation to see whether any of them had used the Ruby name too, but found none. That did happen with the famous Jack Ruby's family and another group of Rubys who were Rubinovitz originally.
As you can see from our research (http://ruby.one-name.net/getperson.php?personID=I8982&tree=Ruby): even in his early days, Abraham/Albert was referred to twice using each alternative forename and, if my suspicions are correct, his sister, Rebecca from the early census records married as Florence. So there was some fluidity in the family in naming!
Regards
Paul
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Sorry to pester you with messages on a public board, but just to say that if there are any obvious errors to my research on your family, or corrections you'd like to make, please feel free to point them out to me. You can find a contact button at the foot of the home page on our website.
Our interest is in the Ruby surname but I felt it important to go back a generation to see the surname's roots and I agree with you that Ruby may well have come from Reuben. It may also have come from the meaning of Rottstein: red stone. From Isaac's record you can see the likely reason why he changed his name.
Paul