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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: RachelK on Friday 05 December 08 19:44 GMT (UK)
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Is anyone researching ancestors from Pattingham? Haven't seen the place mentioned much on these boards.
I'm trying to sort out the connections between the family names I've used in the title and they are connected to the Humphreysons which I think were from Pattingham. There are many variations of the name Humphreyson including Humphryson, Humphreson, Humphrason, Humpherson... gets confusing!
I will post in more detail shortly...
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Right, so, my g x 5 grandparents were Henry & Harriet Simkiss and the following marriage is the only one I've found that fits for them, despite the spelling error (Simkiss = Simkins)
03 Sep 1832 St Peters Wolverhampton
Henry Simkins - bachelor
Harriet Humphryson - spinster
witnesses Mary Jones/John Biddulph by BANNS
and I also found on FREEREG the following marriage
13 Aug 1832 St Peters
James Jones - bachelor
Mary Rowley - spinster
witnesses Harriet Humphryson/John Biddulph by BANNS
So I wondered who Mary Jones formerly Rowley was, and how her and Harriet Humphryson were connected. Then found Mary Rowley's mother was a Humphryson...
29 May 1808 St Peters
Thomas Rowley - bachelor
Ann Humpherson - spinster
James Suker/Sarah Grinsell (BANNS)
christening - 26 Feb 1809 Mary Rowley daug of Thomas & Ann Rowley
at Pattingham
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Then through searching marriage witnesses again, I found the Tolley connection.
16 Sep 1856 St Mark's Wolverhampton
George Tolley 24 bachelor labourer Salop St - father John Tolly - labourer
Harriet C Parkes 21 spinster Salop St - father John Parkes - miller
witnesses Charles Simkiss/Isabella Tyler
Charles and Isabella are brother and sister, Tyler being her married name. They're the children of Harriet Simkiss formerly Humphryson.
Also there is
11 July 1867 St Luke Wolverhampton
James Tolley 26 bachelor labourer Brickkiln st - father John Tolley - labourer
Emma Drake 28 spinster Brickkiln St - father George Drake - labourer
witnesses Thomas Simkiss/Isabella Tyler
again the children of Harriet Simkiss nee Humphryson.
George and James Tolley's parents were John Tolley and Susanna Humphreyson.
10 Apr 1826 Pattingham - John Tolley and Susannah Humphreston
(extracted IGI)
AND on the 1851 census John and Susannah Tolley and Thomas and Ann Rowley were living next door to each other. Would it be safe to assume then that Susannah and Ann were more than likely sisters?
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Hi Rachel,
My friend, David, who is chairman of our local family history society, is called Humpherson. He has ancestors from Codsall, Staffordshire, but traced his family back to Yorkshire to small village.
He has also told me that the name changes, as you yourself have found.
Just going to look at the map and see where Pattingham is.
Kind regards,
Paulene :)
P.S. I've often looked at the avator of your mum, Polly, and thought what a pretty lady - lovely face.
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Thankyou Paulene,
I have family in Perton now which is near Codsall, and I think Pattingham is also near Codsall? Perhaps David is connected to my Humphreyson's? And thankyou for your comment on my avatar. It was taken in the early 70's when she had just qualified as a nurse in W-ton.
I think my Harriet Humphreyson was christened at St Peters on 13 Sep 1804 daug of John and Ann. The only marriage I could find for John and Ann though was in 1807 (John Humfryson & Ann Farr), would it be normal to have a child before marrying at this time?
I do know that Harriet was living in Pattingham at some point, because her first child Isabella Simkiss was christened there (it's on the IGI). After this the family moved to Wolverhampton.
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Hi Rachel.
I know he has been doing his tree for years, and in that time (because it was such an unusual name) followed many of the lines. I'm trying to find the baptism of my Thomas Adams in Staffordshire so he mentioned Codsall when we talking. All of his, as I said, go back to this small village (wish I could remember the name).............................................................
Just telephoned him, and he said I can pass his email address on to by PM if you would like.
Actually he comes from Yorkshire, and then went to work as a detective at Scotland Yard (wonderful credentials don't you think for this hobby ;D). His family came from near Codsall, then via Warwickshire to Yorkshire. He has racked lots of branches of the family - some went to Cornwall, etc etc. But they all come from a place in Shropshire called Hunpherson Hall (he says it is still there).
Apart from a slight gap around the English Civil War he has traced them back to about the twelfth or thirteen century.
Hope this helps,
Paulene :)
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Hi again,
I forgot to say he asked me about the ones you were searching for, and said that wasn't his line, but he knew of them.
He also said, as I would too, that yes they could have got married after the child was born.
He spoke at one of our meetings about his family - the title of the talk was 'Which of your ancestors would you most like to meet'. One of his ancestors, Sarah, was a bigamist 6 times over - sheer resilience! I suppose the alternative for her would have been taking her young family to the workhouse!
Thank goodness times have changed!
Paulene :)
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If you could send me his email address that would be great thanks Paulene.
The question about children before marriage was a little silly I guess, as another one of my ancestors gx4 grandad William Silver, first had a few sons with a widow named Jane (although as far as I can find they didn't marry) and he then ran off to Liverpool, married another woman and had a few children with her!
Also for anyone else reading, I'm trying to establish a connection between Harriet's father John Humphryson and the two others Ann (Rowley) & Susannah (Tolley) Humphryson who were both born Pattingham according to the census. I think they might have all been siblings but am kind of stuck now.
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Hi Rachel,
I've just sent you a PM.
Hope it provides a few answers - good luck!
Paulene :)
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Hiya Rachel
I finally managed to catch up with you post Ive found another Humphreyson http://www.book.co.nz/dovey9.htm
I dont know how she ties into our lot but I'll keep looking
Willow x
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Thanks Willow.
This one might be connected to us. I kind of got stuck and gave up for the meantime! David, who Paulene put me in contact with, did reply to my email and told me about the history of the Humphersons. He said he is conducting a one name study I think? Can't remember whether I've replied to him as it was after xmas when I had flu. Will find the email and tell you what info he shared with me if I haven't already.
Will records for Pattingham be at the new Wolverhampton Archives when it reopens at all? I'm not sure what's held where?
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Hiya Rachel
I think they might be but I have has another breakthrough
On the Wolverhampton Archives site I found two other baptisms of John and Ann
John Humpharson 15.9.1811
Edward Humpharson 10.9.1809
If you search for Edward on the 1851 John is still alive b 1781 Wolverhampton. John is a provisions dealer and Edward is a gardener
Willow x
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Yep we're on the same track, cos I found them too. No idea where my notes are at the mo cos I am rubbish LOL. I am in the process of putting my tree on a tribal pages site now cos I find it much better than GR. It's so good for adding all the census and certificate info etc.
I think we need to just find whatever we can on Harriet and family, make sure we're getting it right cos as usual it's guesswork from me. I did presume (rightly or wrongly) that this John and Edward are Harriet's brothers.
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Hiya Rachel
Yes I'm pretty sure they are and I have also found on FreeREG
Sarah bap 1.8.1813
Joseph 26.5.1815
Edward married Emma Horton 29.1.1852 at St Johns - Edward listed as provisions dealer John as 'Gentleman' lol
Willow x
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1841 Stafford Street, W-ton (mistranscribed Humphesson)
John Humphryson 55 Gardener Y
Ann Humphryson 50 Y
Edward Humphryson 30 Gardener Y
James Humphryson 20 Painter Y
Working on the assumption our John married Ann Farr, there is in the same Street a Joseph Farr and his family, although the name could say Fenn. Can't read it too well.
My only problem is though, Harriet ch.1804 and parents not married till 1807?
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Hiya Rachel
Yes thats mine too - I wonder if John was married before?
Though on the 1851 census Harriet gives her place of birth as London so is it the right family?
Willow x
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I just thought of someting else
There is a Humpheryson family in Sedgley with a head called Richard. on the same census Edward gives his place of birth as Sedgley - I wonder if this is a connection
Willow x
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Hiya Rachel
I have found several burials for these Humphreysons on the Wolverhampton Archives site at St Peters. The most interesting bit is after Ann burial it says 'Brick grave new ground' and after Emmas (Edwards wife) it says 'vault full'
We have a vault?! I'll pop over next week and see if it still exists
I'm still not convinced that this is the right family I think we need to look at the Pattingham records to rule out that Harriet came from there but wow a vault! I havent managed to find a grave for any of mine so far
Thanx for the PM - interesting reading!
Willow x
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That is interesting! I suppose, the things we know for certain are, Harriet and Henry married at St Peter's W-ton, but were living in Pattingham probably at the beginning of their marriage, as this is where their oldest daughter Isabella was christened.
There is a definite Pattingham connection because Isabella, Charles & Harriet (all siblings) were witnesses at the marriages of who we can assume were their cousins, the Tolleys and Mary Rowley.
Both Susanna Tolley nee Humphreyson and Ann Rowley nee Humphreyson (who I think were sisters) are living next door to each other in 1851 in Pattingham and say they were born Pattingham. It is a possibility that they were John from Wolverhampton's sisters and that the family just moved at some point? We need to piece together everything we can find, and if you can get access local to you to Pattingham PR's that might prove really helpful?
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Pattingham Humphreysons (from IGI)
John Humpherston ch. 20 Mar 1785 (Thomas & Mary)
Elizabeth Humphafriston ch. 16 Apr 1797 (Thomas & Mary)
Phillis Humphriston ch. 30 jun 1799 (Thomas & Mary)
Thomas Humphrison ch. 29 Nov 1801 (Thomas & Mary)
Shusanah Humpherson ch. 29 Jan 1804 (Thomas & Mary)
Martha Humphreson ch. 14 Jun 1807 (Thomas & Martha?)
Great spellings eh?! LOL. I think this could be our family?
Edit - got insomnia at the moment *sigh*
1851 Village, Pattingham
John Tolley h 56 ag lab Bagley?, Worcs
Susanna Tolley w 47 Pattingham
George Tolley s 18 ag lab Pattingham
Thomas Tolley s 14 ag lab Pattingham
Edwin Tolley s 11 farm boy Pattingham
James Tolley s 9 scholar Pattingham
next door..
Thomas Rowley h 62 ag lab Pattingham
Ann Rowley w 64 Pattingham
So this gives birth year for Susanna abt 1804 (matches up with that christening)
And for Ann, abt 1787.
Edit #2
1841 Pattingham
Thomas Rowley 52 ag lab Y
Anne Rowley 54 Y
Anne Rowley 21 Y
Elizabeth Rowley 14 Y
few doors down...
John Tolley 45 ag lab N
Susan Tolley 35 Y
William Tolley 13 Y
George Tolley 9 Y
Thomas Tolley 4 Y
Edwin Tolley 1 Y
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Hiya Rachel
I suspect Thomas and John are brothers. I think they may have also had a brother called William as one of the witnesses at Johns wedding was a Phebe Humphryson and William was married to a Phoebe
I've had a look at the Wolverhampton Archives site and they dont appear to have the Pattingham parish records so I will have to look about and see what I can find
William and Phoebe lived in Wolverhampton too so they may have moved here from Pattingham
Willow x
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Ta Willow,
Yeah from the Humphreysons I found christened Pattingham, the first child John would fit the one we've found in W-ton age wise, who we think is our Harriet's dad. Did you find this William and Phoebe on the census then? Might be good if we try and find them all for clues. Phyllis I found her marriage (to Thomas Stokes 25 Aug 1818 Pattingham), easy enough with the relatively unusual first name and she moves to Shropshire with her husband.
Also found Susannah had a son before she married John Tolley.
John Humpherson ch 17 Jun 1823 Pattingham, mother Susannah Humpherson.
This John is living not far from mum Susannah and aunt Ann Rowley in 1851. He is married to a Maria and they have several children. One of them is christened as Harriet Tolly Humphryson, I suppose taking her dad's father's (or step father's?) name.
So we think there might have been 8 siblings at least? Just no christenings for Ann and William?
EDIT TO ADD-
Remember David said about the alias Newell? Note the gap in the christenings for the couple Thomas & Mary? Found these for a Thomas & Mary Newell?... All Pattingham
Anne Newell ch 04 Mar 1787 (this would fit our Ann's age/year of birth)
Mary Newell ch 28 Jun 1789
Jane Newel ch 17 Aug 1791
Sarah Newell ch 10 Nov 1793
These four christenings would fit in the seemingly large gap there is between John and Elizabeth? What do you think? No William though still lol.
Edit again! - I am getting somewhere I promise!
29 May 1808 Thomas Rowley b & Ann Humpherson s BANNS James Suker/Sarah Grinsill
27 Mar 1815 George Bishton b & Jane Humpherson s BANNS Thomas Rowley/Michael Shore
So this adds evidence to the theory about those Newell children being Humphrysons. The Jane Newel ch.1791 would fit this Jane Humpherson marriage, and the fact Thomas Rowley was a witness (her brother in law?) it surely makes sense?!
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Hiya Rachel
William married Phoebe Lloyd 6/4/1807 Wolverhampton (submitted) and someone has also submitted he was b 1782 Wolverhampton
I havent looked for them on the census yet - will go and look now
There is also an extracted baptism of a William Humpherson or Newell 6.9.1696 at Penn so it does look like there was a family of that name in Wolverhampton from a while back too
Willow x
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Damn they didnt make it to the census
burial 5 Jan 1824 William HUMPHRISON 40 40 Wolverhampton St.Peters
burial 28 Mar 1833 Phoebe HUMPHRYSON 56 56 Wolverhampton St.Peters
baptism 20 Mar 1808 HUMPHERSON George son of William & Phoebe
baptism 20 Jan 1811 HUMPHERSON Hannah daughter of William & Phoebe
baptism 20 Jan 1811 HUMPHERSON Henry son of William & Phoebe
baptism 7 Jan 1810 HUMPHRISON William son of William & Phoebe
Willow x
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Hi Rachel
My keyname with a connection is Kendrick, Susannah (1787-1842) b. Codsall being my gtx3 grandmother. Lots of Kendricks in the tree including some born Pattingham, e.g. Thomas Kendrick bap. 1866
Not found any Humph***** of any spelling yet though.
Who are your Staffs Kendricks?
Mike
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oooh Tolleys! maybe MY Tolleys!, ive only flicked thru the posts right now (well it is almost 2am lol )
but my Tolleys are from Pattingham, and possibly the John and susannah one!...
My gran is ethel tolley, bilston 1891/2 (im saying the dates off the top of my head right now)
with her father being William Tolley, Pattingham, his father being Thomas Tolley 1837, and in Famsearch they show a Thos Tolley born 1837 pattingham with parents john and susannah tolley!
Ive only been researching the tolley line tho about a week, but sounds possible?
I'll look thru all the posts fully in the morn (when im more alert lol )
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and sorry, this is probably a silly question, but i keep seeing, taken from IGI?... whats IGI? (im not up w all the terms and places yet)
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IGI is the International Geographical Index, transcriptions of parish records quite good but LDS Church member entries more error prone!!!
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp
Mike
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(thank you for the IGI explanation)...
Im the grandson of an Ethel Tolley from Bilston.. who was married to William Thomas Smith
Her father is William Tolley 1860, pattingham who was married to a Mary Ann Tolley (dont know her surname yet :( ) thats fom the 1911 census..
Williams father is Thomas Tolley 1837, Pattingham
Thomas TOLLEY Head M Male 44 Pattingham, Stafford, England Ag Lab
Martha TOLLEY Wife M Female 38 Bangor, Caernarvon, Wales
William TOLLEY Son U Male 21 Pattingham, Stafford, England Ag Lab
Thomas TOLLEY Son U Male 18 Pattingham, Stafford, England Ag Lab Wagoner
James TOLLEY Son Male 11 Quatt, Shropshire, England Scholar
Clara A. TOLLEY Daur Female 5 Pattingham, Stafford, England Scholar
Dwelling Nurton
Census Place Pattingham, Stafford, England
I have then looked Thomas up again and found ...
THOS. TOLLEY
Christening: 05 FEB 1837 Pattingham, Stafford, England
Parents:
Father: JOHN TOLLEY
Mother: SUSANNAH
But it doesnt have Susannahs maiden name...
is this your susannah?
Surely there cant be two, Thomas Tolleys born 1837 in Pattingham?
I dont know much of the tolleys yet so....
as for Me, Im a Smith...wolverhampton born and bred, with direct family being from wolverhampton and bilston
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Im also having trouble finding the maiden name of Martha Tolley (Thomas's Wife) from my list up there, any ideas?
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Hiya Truebritmega
From FreeBMD
Thomas Tolly (note spelling) married Martha Edwards Sept quart 1857 Wolverhampton 6b 525
I cant see the transcript on the Wolverhampton Archive site though so it might be worth ordering the certificate to find out Marthas fathers name
Willow x
(another Wulfrunian born & bred)
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(ooh always nice to meet another wulfrunian!)
well done and ty! I couldsnt see it on the wolves archives site (but then again im not that good @ searching this stuff yet lol )
I guess we cant be sure its the same thomas tolley/tolley, till i get the cert huh...
the other thing that bothers me, from the names in the list, is that martha shows as born in pattingham on the one census, but bangor on the other?
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and im still wondering if my Tolleys are the same ones as yours? lol surely it cant be a coincidence?.. Pattingham aint a big area LOL I know that I fitted some gates onto the school there many moons ago lol
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Hiya Truebritmega
I'm pretty sure its the same one as its a year or two before the eldest childs birth and they probably married at Pattingham church which is why its not on the W-ton site
I'm pretty sure its all the same family as you say Pattingham aint big
Willow x
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Hello Rachel
I've quite a few relatives from Pattingham, including a few Humphrestons that you found on my cousin Trevor's site http://www.book.co.nz/dovey9.htm
Our link is through the Dovey family.
William Dovey (1844 - 1875) married Mary Humphreston (1843 - 1907). They had three children:
John Dovey (1871 - 1934)
Bertha Dovey (1873 - )
William Dovey (1876 - )
Mary's parents were Thomas Humphreston (1802 - ) and Hannah Dee (1798 - ). Hannah and Thomas had a son Thomas, born 1838, and Hannah had several children before she married Thomas:
William Dee (1824 - )
Sarah Dee (1828 - )
Elizabeth Dee (1831 - )
Jesse Dee (1832 - )
I've not tracked down a previous marriage for Hannah yet.
Hope that helps
David
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yes i agree, i think it is the same one too.. i looked at my details after I read your post, and yes, the marriage is a year or so, before the firstborn.. but I wonder why one census has her born at (martha i mean) at pattingham and the other as at Bangor?.. I want to try and find what William (1860), Mary Ann, what her maiden name was....
and as your a fellow wulfrunian, who knows maybe i''ll catch you at wolves archives one o the days LOL
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well I did order the marriage cert for thomas tolly/martha edwards but when I got there i was told that there wasnt a match, there was a martha edwards marriage, but the husbands name wasnt thomas tolly... curious?
she did say that perhaps it was actually staffs records office and not the wolverhampton as they use some of the the same numbers
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How strange! That is the only Thomas/Martha marriage I can find on FreeBMD that is even close
Your best bet is to order one of the childrens birth certificates to clear this up
Willow x
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Very pleased to see replies to this post, I've only just noticed as for some reason I'm not getting emails to tell me about new posts? Must check my settings.
Anyway, Keomike, I have no Kendricks from Pattingham. Mine were from Worcestershire and moved into Wolves around 1870 so I'm afraid we don't have any connection that I can see.
Truebritmega - It definitely seems you descend from the John Tolley and Susannah Humphryson I have mentioned, meaning you are related to myself and Willow somehow. Probably in the respect we may share great time however many grandparents on the Humphryson side.
Mezentia - Thanks for your info. Your Thomas Humphreston who married Hannah Dee, you have said he was born 1802. Is it possible he is this one from IGI? Thomas Humphrison ch. 29 Nov 1801 (Thomas & Mary)? If so then we are also related by the looks of things.
It is a complicated line, particularly with the involvement of the Newall alias, but I hope we can unravel it if we help each other. Look forward to hearing from you all again, I will have to start adding all this speculative info to my tribal pages tree as it will make it easier to work through.
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yup Rachel it seems so (gives my hmmm distant cousins? lol a cuddle, nice to meet the fam lol ) and yep i guess the next stage or me will be to track the birth of one o the kids down, I was lookin at Pattingham, online the other day, and even today the population only stands at around 2300 lol, too many tolleys there way back "not" to be the same fam?
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LOL a lot of my family live now in Perton, small village very near Pattingham. And yes they are still quite small places. When I've added the Humphreysons and Tolleys etc to my tree I will send you the link so you can have a look. See if we can be any help on the rest of your Tolleys too. As already mentioned, the IGI (familysearch) is very useful but only extracted entries really. Submitted ones aren't so reliable, as people easily make mistakes.
Oh and I am getting notifications now thankfully, so shouldn't miss anymore posts!
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oh thank you! i'll look forward to the link1 the tolleys are my only real links to my dad, as his, my, surname isnt as easy to trace much (smith) LOL
(Ethel Tolley being his mom)
and yes, perton,pattingham etc are all small (i know them well, my bro lived in perton, and i used to go thru pattingham daily on way to college in penkridge , even built some gates to a school up in pattingham once lol )
and im glad your getting notifications again, nice to meetcha :)
(Andy)
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Hi,
I have just come across your messages, and noted you were looking into the Tolleys of Pattingham. I have John Tolley who married Sussanah Humpreston in 1826. John and Sussanah are my 3x great grandparents. Would be interested to hear from any body.
Best wishes
Elaine
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Hello Elaine, welcome to rootschat.
It would seem yourself and Andy are cousins then, and you are probably related to Willow and myself. Funny, I was looking at this thread earlier wishing I had the concentration to work on my tree right now! Do you have any further back on Susannah Humpherson?
As you might have read in this thread I have been trying to trace her and her siblings, and the family also used the alias Newell. Any info you can share will be very helpful, thanks.
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Hi,
I have not realy been doing this side of my tree for that long. I would love to be able to help on Sussanah but I have not followed her side yet. I am trying to fit together other Tolleys I have in Patteningham to John, I am sure they are his brothers and sisters but as yet cannot prove it.
Will keep trying and will let you know any progress.
Elaine
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Hiya Elaine
Welcome from me too
I have been busy tracing my Beard side so I haven't done a lot on this side. I will have to pull my finger out lol
Willow x
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I had slipped lately with my tolleys too, thats the one problem im finding now with the trees, new leads come so oft on other tree lines that we end up slipping out of one and into another, Im surrently trying to tackle My trickiest line, the Smiths of Bilston (the tolleys are from that line too)
But yes, I have a John Tolley who appears to be the father of my thomas tolley of Pattingham (1837)
John and Susannah would be my... grt x 3, or is it 4... grand parents and from this thread it appears Susannah is.. Susannah Humphreyson (I keep having to look to check how to spell that name LOL)
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and yes, welcome to Rootschat Elaine, nice to meet a new cousin!!LOL
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I have these Pattingham Tolleys on my tree, I'm connected by the Russells and Inetts:
Descendants of John Tolley
Generation No. 1
1. JOHN1 TOLLEY was born Abt. 1823 in Pattingham, Staffordshire. He married ESTHER UNKNOWN. She was born Abt. 1827 in Seisdon, Staffordshire.
Child of JOHN TOLLEY and ESTHER UNKNOWN is:
i. LUCY2 TOLLEY, b. Abt. 1849, Worfield, Shropshire; d. Aft. 1911; m. THOMAS RUSSELL, Abt. Dec 1907, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire; b. 1841, Pattingham, Staffordshire; d. Aft. 1911.
Notes for THOMAS RUSSELL:
Straw dealer in 1891 census. Shoemaker, the son of Thomas Russell at Rock Cottage, High Street. When Jane and Thomas married, they lived at 53 High Street, next to the Congregational Chapel, and later moved to the High Street cottages next to Broadwell Lane. Recorded in 1901 census as a farmer and widower aged 59, with his daughter, son-in-law and their 13-day old son Edward Thomas Gittins living with him at "The Village".
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I think I've had a breakthrough!
Off the IGI baptism 12.8.1804 at Sedgley of Henry Simkins son of Jacob and Sarah
Willow x
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well done Willow!! (tho to be honest, its beena while since ive been in the tolley line and i forget whos who lol )
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Fascinating to read all these posts. I wonder if anyone can help with a query. 3 brothers in my family lived in The Clive, Pattingham and all 3 moved to West Bromwich as young men about 1650. Why?
Their parents had died and I always assumed it was the Legge family at Patshull who also owned land in West Bromwich and Legges asked them to go over there to work for them. They were nailers, buckle makers and also had a bit of land in WB.
But I have just spotted that the Legges did not come to Pattingham till 19th century when they bought estate off the Pigots who bought it off Astleys in 1765.
So back to Square One. Can anybody suggest a link between Pattingham and West Bromwich in about 1650? ???
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grrrr lol... been a while since Ive looked at my tolleys.. but now I have come back to them im getting annoyed w myself!! I cant see to see Thomas Tolley (b 1892 Bilston) on any census!!! The reason im re looking is I think i just came across a millitary record for him
HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP