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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: ellie_downunder on Friday 05 December 08 17:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi I am trying to research my great grandmother who came out to Australia from Croydon, they also lived at queens rd upper Norwood Her name was Alice Smith her father is supposed to be Reuben Smith, I dont know her mothers name, She married Frederick Bache in 1888 at Bromley, The family story is that she descended from Gypsies and was related to Lee, I dont know if this is true or not but I was wondering if anyone could help me with further information please, Cheers Ellie
Please Note
another researcher has her parents down as Richard Smith,of Sutton Valance and Elizabeth. and Alice Smith being born at cobham, in 1867but on her Australian death cert it does state Reuben,
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Just to see what is 'firm' info and what is family tradition...
When does this Upper Norwood address relate to?
What names witnessed the marriage and how old were the bride & groom,?
What does that cert give as Father(s)?
When did she emigrate?
Pauline
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Hi Ellie
I see in the 1891 and 1901 censuses she gives her place of birth as Cudham.
In 1871 there is an Alice Smith of the right age (4) born Cudham with parents Reuben and Elizabeth plus siblings. Reuben is a labourer.
Do you have access to the censuses? If not I will give you the details.
Barbara
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In 1861 Reuben and Elizabeth have a brother in law Henry Packman with them.
There is a marriage for a Reuben Smith Sep 1850 Bromley V 83 and I have found an Elizabeth Packman with the same ref.
This marriage would tie in with their eldest child being 9 in the 1861 census.
Barbara
In 1861 Reuben is born Eynsford and Elizabeth in Bromley
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Hi Pauleen, Thank you so much for your reply on my Smith family. First of all I know they were at Queens road upper Norwood in 1903 as my grandfather Alfred Edmund Bache was born there,
I do not have the marriage cert yet as the family came from England and I have just started on the Smith line,
I only have the Australian death cert which stated her father as being Reubin Smith,
I am a little unsure of myself when it comes to the British counties, all of a sudden I feel like a frog in a big pond again lol :o I know my Grandfather was a child when they came to Australia,
They also had another child with them who is a bit of a puzzle I don't know if he is related or they adopted him I just know his name was John Starmore b 29th of Nov 1907, London.
and they brought him up, They left one elder daughter Elizabeth Bache behind and she married ? O'connell
I don't know if the family story is true or not but I know I am about to go on a interesting journey to find out and if its not at least I will have learned a little more ;)
Cheers Ellie
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Thank You so much Barbara for the information, It sounds like it could be them as it was stated her death as her father being Reubin Smith, ( I am doing the happy dance and its not a good look ::) )
Another descendant from the US has submitted her to Family search as Alice Smith born Cobham 1867 father Richard Mother Elizabeth, I was a little worried when I saw it and decided
not to take the lazy way out lol,
I would love the information on her siblings if you don't mind
giving them to me I have a few British cds, although I have not had much luck with them, but now I know who to look for, ;D
I have the Surrey Marriage index but its only to 1837 and mainly rural, and the London church registers,
I have a lot of Australian ones if anyone ever wants me to help
them with look ups I would be happy to do so,
Thank you again for the information I am so grateful for any help as I have dreaded trying to do the Smiths, its a huge name to research. I am also sorry I did not reply earlier it was only when I was trying to delete some of the junk from my mail box that I saw yours and Pauline's reply.............Cheers Ellie
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Hi ellie
1861
Cudham (address very faint but looks like ?? Cottage, Green?)
Reuben Smith Head Mar 46 labourer b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 40 b Bromley
Herbert Son 17 Labourer
Matilda Dau 12
Reuben Son
Alice Dau 4
Ann Dau 2
All the children born Cudham
Ref is RG10 875 f 13
1871
Biggin Hill Cottage, Westerham Road, Cudham
Reuben Smith Head Mar 36 labourer b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 30 b Bromley
Frederick Son 9
Herbert Son 7
Martha Dau 5
Matilda Dau 2
Henry Packham Brother in Law Mar 38 Labourer b Kent Famborough
All the children born Cudham
Ref is RG9 462 f 47
Will check 1851 and 1881.
Barbara
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1841
Crockenhill, Eynsford
Thomas Smith 55 Fruiterer
Philadelphia 45
James 20 Ag Lab
Reuben 15 Ag Lab
Richard 14 Ag Lab
Henry 11 Ag Lab
Sarah 15
Martha 7
All born in county.
HO107 482/13 f 23
Remember that in the 1841 census ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 so the 2 15 year olds could be aged 15-19.
I can see Reuben and Elizabeth still in Eynsford in 1881 with some of their children but not Alice. You can view that census at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp
I have had no luck in finding Reuben and Elizabeth in 1851 yet - will look some more!
Barbara
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Ellie
Found them!
1851
Cudham
Reuben Smith Head Mar 27 Fruiter of 20 acres 2 labourers b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 20 b Bromley
Edward Packman Brother in Law 26 Ag lab b Bromley
Ann Packman Sister 33 b Eynsford
Thomas Packman Nephew 10 months b Cudham
This reinforces the Packman link.
Ref HO107 1606 f 281
If you check the 1881 census you will see that Alice is working as a servant in Bromley.
This does look like the right family but it is always best to confirm with certificates. Alice's marriage cert will confirm the name of her father.
This looks like her birth
Births Sep 1866 Smith Alice Bromley 2a 292
The birth cert will give her father's name and her mother's maiden name.
These 2 certificates together with the marriage certificate for Reuben to Elizabeth should tie the family together :)
Barbara
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I am so going to kiss you :-* Thank you so much,
I was just able to confirm it was them by the info on the
Digger - Death Index. Victoria 1921-1985
Surname: BACHE
Given Names: Alice
Father: Smith Reuben
Mother: Elizth UNKNOWN
Death Place: MELB E
Age: 61
Age Code:
Year: 1927
Reg Number: 15169
Event: D
This confirms Alice being born in 1866, I should of re checked it before I posted but I did not remember her mothers name being on the cert I got
So its looking to be one busted Myth lol, Oh boy has my Nan told some whoppers :-[ guess it was a good way for her to get a little more attention telling her Gypsy Smith stories ;) and us all believing her, thats 3 generations that believed her how funny is that ;D now I have to tell my kids...............lol
I honestly don't know how to thank you enough Barbara you are truly wonderful for all the help you have given me
I can research the smith line back now, and thanks to you I wont need a crystal ball to find them ;D
Cheers and I hope you have a wonderful Christmas
Ellie
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Hi
I just noticed your posts regarding Smith etc but its the Packman link that interests me most....
there was a family who were called Packman that came to Devon from London, I haven;t done much research on them but they were sort of Gypsies ( not sure what trade maybe metal or scap dealers) and associated with A Gypsy Smith familyby marriages etc and also Penfold Orchard all Gypsies
I would be interested if you find anything that might link up to Devon
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Just thought......... the line of Packman that came from London I am sure it was a Tom Packman could this be thomas ? you have listed ?
i will check and see what I have on him
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Blimey Tiggy, I am going to wet myself laughing ;D maybe she was telling the truth after all lol, I would be so grateful if you could please look for me. I am not laughing out of disrespect but you had to know my Nan, she would be loving this lol. and she is most likely the one to have the last laugh ::)
Cheers Ellie
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;D lol elle
I know exactly what you mean - your nan sounded like a really nice lady and had character :)l
I will look up Thomas Packman and see if its same person I think also I need to re-read your posts and see if I can place any of them but I don;t think your nan was lying lol
You mentioned Norwood in the beginning well that was a known Gypsy haunt and guess by who ?
The Lee family... so must be some truth alittle some where
Have you looked up about Norwood ?
Lots of Gypsies lived there
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Hello ellie
So glad I could help :)
I have found the Packman family in 1841 in Bromley Kent and they are all listed as born in county.
Bromley Common
Thomas 55 Wood Breaker?
Keturah 40
George 20 Lab
Henry 18 Lab
Edward 15 Lab
Eliza 14
Samuel 12
Elizabeth 10
Lucy 5
Matilda 9 months
HO107 480/ 8 f 24
Barbara
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Tiggi I just started on the Smith line, I sort of was procrastinating :-\ for quiet a while, I thought it was going to be worse than hubbies Williams side, :D But its looking like its going to be a real learning experience, I love to do the social history of my branches and I have written a few poems, Guess I am a little like my Nan
I like to tell the stories too ::) I will look into Norwood, My Nan
was born in Australia so its not likely that she would of known a lot about the Gypsy culture, after reading your posting I now wish that I had taken her more seriously and asked her more than I did :'(, but sadly she is gone now and so has my Mum, So if she does turn out to be correct I will write the best history on the gypsies that I can for my Nan. cheers ellie
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what a loverly name Kerturah is I have never heard it before
mmmmmmm this is getting interesting :D I looked it up and its Hebrew meaning "incense" wonder if I am Jewish too ;D
Its 1 am here and I have to be up in 5 1/2 hrs, So I am going to
bed and tomorrow I am going to get stuck into it, that is providing I can sleep now as you girls have got me excited :D with all this information, Thank you both I am most grateful.
Cheers Ellie
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Hi Elle
My Packman family did come down from London but head of family was William Packman with his brothers in law Bill- Vanslow- Sam Cooper
William maybe son of woman by name of King of Kent
Sorry to build up your hopes :-[
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Oh Tiggi, don't worry you and Barbara can always adopt me ;)
if it turns out I don't belong here :'(
The following is what I have just found, ( not my work :-[ )
but I managed to find other descendants who posted the following ;D Check out no 7 ;) without Barbara and you, I would not have found all this, I would be still procrastinating. :D
Now what do you think Tiggi could they be related to your Packman ?
1. Keturah1 WHIFFIN was born in 1798 in Farnborough, KEN, ENG. She married Samuel Packman, son of Samuel Packman and Sarah Monk. She became a widow upon the death of her husband Samuel Packman in 1847. She died in 1864.
Samuel Packman was born circa 16 Oct 1785 in Cudham, KEN, ENG. He died in 1847.
Known children of Keturah1 WHIFFIN and Samuel Packman were as follows:
2 i. George2 Packman was born on 8 Jun 1821 in Farnborough, KEN, ENG. He married Martha (--?--). He died on 25 Feb 1885 Cudham, KEN, ENG, at age 63.
Martha (--?--) was born in 1834 in High Littleton, SOM, ENG. She became a widow upon the death of her husband George Packman on 25 Feb 1885.
3 ii. Henry Packman was born in 1823 in Farnborough, KEN, ENG. He married Eliza Butler in 1853. He became a widower upon the death of his wife Eliza Butler before 1881. He died in 1893 Bromley, KEN, ENG,. (September Quarter).
Eliza Butler died before 1881.
4 iii. Edward Packman was born in 1825 in Bromley, KEN, ENG. He married Ann (--?--). He became a widower upon the death of his wife Ann (--?--) before 1891. He died in 1902.
Ann (--?--) was born in 1819 in Eynsford, KEN, ENG. She died before 1891.
5 iv. Eliza Packman was born in 1827 in Bromley, KEN, ENG. She married (--?--) Jeffrey.
(--?--) JEFFREY died before 1881.
6 v. Samuel Packman was born in 1829 in Bromley, KEN, ENG. He married first Louisa Clark in 1852. He became a widower upon the death of his wife Louisa Clark on 11 Dec 1887. He married second Julia Booth in 1888. (Bromley Registration District June Quarter 1888.). He became a widower upon the death of his wife Julia Booth in Aug 1895. He married third Martha Elizabeth Sims on 28 Mar 1896. He died on 11 Aug 1909 Bromley, KEN, ENG.
Louisa Clark was born in 1832 in Cudham, KEN, ENG. She died on 11 Dec 1887 in Cudham, KEN, ENG.
Julia Booth was born on 14 Nov 1844 in Putney, MDX, ENG. She married first (--?--) Batey. She died in Aug 1895 in Cudham, KEN, ENG, at age 50. (Died in an accident on Westerham Hill).
Martha Elizabeth Sims was born in 1847 in Marlybone, London, ENG. She became a widow upon the death of her husband Samuel Packman on 11 Aug 1909. She died in 1922.
7 vi. Elizabeth Packman was born in 1831 in Bromley, KEN, ENG. She married Reuben Smith.
8 vii. Emma Packman was born in 1833. She died in 1836
9 viii. Lucy Packman was born in 1835 in Bromley, KEN, ENG. She died circa 27 Dec 1835.
10 ix. Matilda Packman was born on 3 Sep 1840 in Bromley, KEN, ENG.
cheers Ellie ;D
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:) Sorry about this but I just found something else interesting while you girls were snoring your heads off :-X
I am a descendant of Henry and Elizabeth Packman of Sydney Aust,my charts are in NZ,i f I am correct Henry is the son of Thomas the son of John the son of Henry Packman and Lydia Bird of Enysford, Lydia,possible Henry is the son of John,a marrige of the next parish in the 1760's Packman was spelt Peckman, family is somehow connected to Sir Francis Moon,lord mayor of London, have had trouble determining the birth of Elizabeth Caroline Leigh, know her fathers name was Richard,mothers name is unknown,born Wells,Somerset? Did her brother die at Rorkes Drift? Talk of horse head as symbol of Leigh family,am interested in doing further research on Leigh family and Moon connection. Am only going off memory,hoping to travel to NZ and collect all my family tree charts.
I hope I am allowed to do this lol, 8) I have only borrowed it to show you girls, ;D I wonder if this is where the Leigh family
comes into it as my Packmans were also from Eynsford but this might be a different family to the Gypsy family of Leighs / Lees
does anyone know of the above leigh names
Cheers Ellie
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Hi Ellie
First - I made a mistake on the 1841 census for the Packman family - the father is def Samuel :D
I found Keturah on the 1851 census and she is a widow. Yhere are deaths on FreeBMD that are almost certainly Samuel and Keturah.
So, this is all looking good. However, I always check out information from other researchers to make sure I am happy with the sources and the conclusions reached.
Barbara :)
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Hi Elle
::) Well honestly I don't know, its possible William Packman could be a distant relation we seem to be in same area with Kent as I have been told that is where his mother came from
The only other surname that I have in my family you have mentioned is Jeffrey again a line which has been a brickwall for me. I do know though the family I reseached ended up in USA but before 1851 in UK I haven;t found much on them.
I asked my cousin and they say no one is sure if our Packman family were Gypsies , but could have married into them.
All I do know for sure is London was winter quarters for lots of families, so you never know.
I only wish I could give more definite information , but I haven;t got much on him he seems to be a sercetive man.
I will keep looking and yes we will adopt you lol ;D
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Glad to hear you girls will adopt me, How about a new mobile and some $ then, don't want pounds got enough of them ;D
I found another web site with my branches info on it,
I borrowed the following from it, I figure seem she is a Rellie she wont mind ;) She knocked it off from the Oxford dictionary of names anyway :-X I am beginning to like this gypsy connection ;)
Packman
Occupational name for a peddler or hawker, One who carried his pack of goods for sale with him.
English and Jewish ( Ashkenazic )
Occupational name for the servant of someone called Pack. English
( Variation of 1: Jewish Pakentreger from Yidish pakn-tregar, pack carrier. )
source : Oxford Dictionary of Surnames
I will keep an eye out on my travel's for the surname Jeffrey
and anything else I come across that might be of interest
cheers Ellie
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Hey Tiggy is this who you are talking about
Jeffrey, Joseph
Packman, Martha
1823
ST. MARYLEBONE
My Pallots seems to be coming in handy, just got to work out these weird place names and who belongs to who ;D
I will keep looking...............so stay posted and no snoring on the job :-[
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Hi again Tiggy, I found a much later connection between Packman and Jeffrey on the census. George Packman and Eliza Jeffrey are the children of Thomas Packman and Keturah ( Anne ) Wiffin / whiffen
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
George PACKMAN Head M Male 59 Farnborough, Kent, England Farmer & Wood Dealer 40 Acres 13 Men
Eliza JEFFERY Sister W Female 54 Bromley, Kent, England Housekeeper
Eliza MILLS Servant Female 17 Chelsfield, Kent, England Dom Serv General
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Hi Ellie :-*
I am keeping an eye on what you post, ;)
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Hi Elle
I just wondered what is date for Elizabeth Caroline Leigh ?
I see a lady of that name in 1891
Otterhampton Bridgewater Somerset
Head of Family is Farmer/ Elizabeth C is livining on own means
Herbert Leigh 48 b 1843 Combwitch Somerset Head
Elizabeth C Leigh 63 b 1828 Combwitch Sister
Eliza Leigh 57 b 1834 Combwitch Sister
Mary A Carter 56 b 1835 Combwitch Sister
John W Carter 50 b 1841 Tawlett Somerset B/IN/L
Mary Davey 20 b 1871 Stockland Somerset Servant
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Ok found same lady in 1871 Census seems her middle name is Cox not caroline :-[
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please believe me i am not trying to but in but i do know a bit about william packman.from london.he was not a gypsy but as you say married into them.he married first the cooper girl and they had kids together.he then came to cornwall(he used to travel london to cornwall selling fern.that is what the packmans were famous for)on his stay in cornwall he had a brief affair with naomi bland and a boy child was born but died young.he then was in devon and married louise orchard.the tree from then on is fairly well documented already in places.it is said at his funeral two of his sons turned up from the cooper marrage and the orchard marriage and they were both called bill packman!!!!!sorry to have butted in but i hope this helps a little.
i think but am not sure that naomi bland is connected to the jeff family(maybe thats where the Jeffreys come into it having shortened the name to jeff???i dont know)
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Quote : he had a brief affair with naomi bland and a boy child was born but died young.he then was in devon and married louise orchard. :-[
He might not of been a gypsy, but he sure was a traveler ;)
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Hi everyone just wanted to wish you all a very Merry and safe Christmas :D, I am still working on my Smith / Packman line
but without all of your help I would not be where I am today, which is not much further than you guys put me ;D
I just want to know how other researchers manage to trace their trees back to Adam and Eve ? ( well i might exaggerate a little but you get my meaning ) I am trying to find 1700s marriages and births that are even older than the settlement of my country, Its mind blowing :o will post them soon as it might help someone else, cheers Ellie ;D
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Hi Tiggi, Barb and Cath, I have been doing further research into my Packmans, Cath could you please tell me more on the William Packman that you spoke about, do you know what year he was born or anything else, ;D There seems to be a couple of William Packman's that were out there ::) and a few on my branch also ???
I have been walkabout looking for anything I could find relating to this family, I don't think I would be allowed to post too much at once but here goes, I thought I would just put some of the marriages up that may help Tiggi ?
George Henry Noble Alice Wiltshire Dalton 28 May 1885
Albert Clealand Packman Sarah Ann Southgate 25 Dec 1866
Henry Packman Eliza Butler 1853
Henry Packman Mary Fryer 04 Sep 1787
Herbert Charles Packman Eliza Pearson 1896
John Packman Mary Colfield 06 Nov 1778
Richard Packman Mary Whitehead 22 Oct 1769
Samuel Packman Julia Booth 1888
Samuel Packman Louisa Clark
Samuel Packman Martha 1789
Samuel Packman Sarah Monk 03 Mar 1778
Samuel Packman Martha Elizabeth Sims 28 Mar 1896
Samuel Packman Keturah WHIFFIN
Thomas Packman Griswell Ashden 25 Apr 1706
Thomas Packman Sarah Cooper 24 Jan 1769
Thomas Packman Emma HINDE Dec 1848
Thomas Packman Mary
Thomas Packman Elizabeth Mills 30 Sep 1740
Thomas Packman Ann Wallis Abt. 1815
William Packman Mary Ann Cheal 1820
William Packman Maryann Wells
Thomas Perriere Elizabeth Packman 03 Jan 1776
Richard Head Mary Packman 05 Jan 1761
unknown Jeffrey Eliza Packman
Timothy Jessup Elizabeth Packman 28 Sep 1770
Michael Dean Fletcher Sarah Packman 26 Oct 1776
George Gibson Sarah Packman
Henry Dalton Clara Packman
Charles William Silsbury Florence BACHE 23 Jan 1897
Robert Simpson Clara Chambers 02 Nov 1873
Robert Simpson Jane Tiploft 1840
Reuben Smith Elizabeth Packman
Thomas Smith Philadelphia Hilstead
Thomas Smith Dorcas Turner 1778
Richard Squibb Mary Packman 18 Aug 1739
James Tiptaft Christiana Connell 12 Jul 1802
Robert Whitehead Lydia Packman 02 Oct 1782
Timothy Wilshire Clara Packman
Name places related to the above packman families are
Shoreham, Otford, Kensing, Halstead, Knockholt, cudham, Bromley, Farnborough, Beckenham, Eynsford, Dartford,
Ash ?, Swanscombe Greenhithe, Fawkham, Snodland, cobham,
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there were at least 3 william packmans!!!1 was the father born london b.1864. and then he had 2 sons both called william from two of his women!!!!!the packmans although they married into travellers werent actually gypsies.they sold fern in the london which i presume they got from the west country and took back to sell.they did very well forthemselves anyway.happy new year cathay
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Just thought......... the line of Packman that came from London I am sure it was a Tom Packman could this be thomas ? you have listed ?
i will check and see what I have on him
William Pacman had a son Tom, his son Bill was a scrap dealer, he died last year tom is also gone
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the packmans are now quite a large family round devon areas.the will packman who died last year was not the orginal one from london as i am sure yiou realise?i have a couple of packman trees and am in touch with williams descendants now in devon.i cant mention names cause living folk but you seem to be from the west country gypsy123.do i know you?if so pm me and i can tell you more.
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Quote : he had a brief affair with naomi bland and a boy child was born but died young.he then was in devon and married louise orchard. :-[
He might not of been a gypsy, but he sure was a traveler ;)
yes you are wright there he was not born a Gypsy but he was a Traveller,
nothing to be ashamed of having Gorgi Blood it hapens all the time Gypsies marry Gorgis, well Cath knows that, as she is a none Gypsy married to a Gypsy, its me Cath Sally how are things
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Dear Elli my Gran was a Packman the family Cathaey is on about, he did come from london as they have all said, and as far as i know we are the only Packman family Married into Gypsies so i dont think it is the same family,
Funny though my mum and Dad live in OZ they are in Melbourn
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I am also descended from the William Packman family in Devon and there is question (in my mind) about his ancestry, we always knew him to be a Gorja and as Sally will corroborate he bought some good qualities to our family however his mother was Maryann King from the Kent area, I know there are Romany "Kings" in that area and I think there could be a possibillity that she had connections to Romanies. Funny that William himself allways gravitated toward Gypsies as his first wife was Charlotte Cooper a Gypsy, when his first marriage broke up he stayed with her family and came to Devon where he had relation with another romany before eventually settleing with Louise Orchard,
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Hi All
I know this post was sometime ago, but thought this might be of interest regards William Packman.
His last or known spouse Louisa Orchard was daughter of Joseph & Maggie/Margaret Smith often known as Peggy.
Peggy was sister to my Great Grandmother Betsy Smith daughters of James Smith & Eliza Scarrett
I found a couple of articles you may like to see :
The first confirms what family did living selling Fern and it is about Wm son John Packman.
The second is about the sad death of John's wife Louisa Sanders which is confirmed by the fact the first mentions her father James Sanders as John's Father in law.
Western Times 18 January 1935
Betrayed by leaves in Van- Hawker fined £25
Two large bales described as a rare pittosporum a valuable and rare shrub not native to this country ,but from New Zealand.
John Packman a hawker of Ashbridge Westleigh near Bideford pleaded not guilty.
His father was William Packman.
They are used as decoration especially around London area ( fish markets)
The police found a quantity of evergreens were dispatched from Junction Railway Station Barnstaple to Davenport Smithfield Manchester and the 2 bales in court were recovered by Manchester police.
A search of John Packman's van found a few leaves, he denied all knowledge of the shrubs.
Packman said his father in law had been sending stuff to Manchester for 30 years, James Sanders his father in law said he sent packages and Henry Birch took them to station.
Two clerks at the station gave evidence that only John Packman did dispatch them and had for past 6 weeks only Packman had sent evergreens to Davenport
He was fined £25 or 3 mths in prison and refused time to pay.
Western Times 09 August 1935
There was a large attendance at the funeral of Mrs Louisa Packman who died in North Devon Infirmary Barnstaple at the early age of 20.
Deceased was much respected by large circle of relatives and friends and will be greatly missed.
She leaves an infant son and husband.
The coffin was of polished oak and the breastplate bore inscription Louisa Packman died 25th July 1935.
The mourners were :
Her husband mother and father
Henry ,Caroline Sophia ,Betsy Susie ( brother and sisters)
Bill & Louie Packman ( mother & father in law)
Jim & Fred Hook, Henry Birch, Charlotte Sanders ( brothers and sister in laws)
Henry & Harriet Sanders ( Uncle and Aunt)
Tom & Louie Birch ( Uncle & Aunt)
George & Louie Sanders ( Uncle & Aunt)
Bob Penfold (Uncle)
Genty Sanders Offie Birch Pheobe Hughes Betsy Roberts ( cousins)
Mr & Mrs George Hooke
Mr & Mrs Edwin Orchard
Eddie & Sophia Orchard
Noah Hughes
Moses Penfold
Eddie Small
Edmond Orchard
Ben Nelson
Joe Roberts
Bobby Small ( friends)
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I Can tell you more regards Louisa Sanders family :
Louisa Sanders/Packman was daughter of : James Sanders & Pheobe Penfold
They married in 1899 Bideford Devon
Pheobe Penfold was born 1878 daughter of Alfred Penfold & Louisa Small b 1850 Plymouth.
Louisa Small daughter of Cinderella Cooper & Moses Small
Alfred Penfold died 1940 Devon left his money to Harriet Penfold/Sanders wife of Henry Sanders
his daughter and Pheobe sister.
Louisa Sanders nee Packman born 1915 -mother Pheobe Penfold
married 1834 Barnataple John Packman
John Packman remarried 1936 Susie Sanders – Louisa sister
Her siblings :
Henry Sanders married Charlotte Hooke 1922 Bideford/ Louisa brother
Caroline Sanders married James Hooke 1922 Bideford/ Louisa sister
Betsy Sanders married Fredrick Hooke 1927 Bideford/Louisa sister
Sophia Sanders married Henry Birch 1931 Barnstaple/ Louisa sister
Susie Sanders married John Packman 1936 Barnstaple/ Louisa sister after her death.