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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: mahatmacoat on Wednesday 03 December 08 15:38 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
can somebody please check for a birth record for me in Fife, possibly
Auchtermuchty, It's for a Moncrieff Sinclair b circa 1830-1831.
I have him on the 1851 census living in Dysart, he gives his age as 21 and
birthplace as Auchtermuchty, i can find nothing?, neither can i find him on any
census after 1851, or a death for him.
can anyone suggest anything?? kind regards, Rab.
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Nothing obvious on SP. No doubt you've tried alternative spellings with Soundex. I've been trying Sinklar (how I found one of my Sinclairs), St Clair, Sinkler, etc.
There is a Charles Hope Sinclair born 1828 in Leslie, Fife, son of George Sinclair and Mary Temple.
From 1881 census, Charles had a son Moncrieff bc1862.
Possible that Charles is a brother to Moncrieff and using family name for his son.
Just throwing this at you as another avenue to perhaps pursue.
Dave
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Hi Dave, thanks very much for your reply and your absolutely spot on!!
Charles Hope Sinclair did have a brother called Moncrieff,
and yes also a son, your intuition is remarkable!!.
Where people born around this time not always given a birth record do you know??, Both Moncrieff's older brothers have one, so why not Him??
I'm Beggining to wonder if there might be some scandle at the back of this!
I'm going to Fife next week for a couple of nights, i wish i knew where i might
get some info on this while i'm there, any idea's Dave?.
kind regards Rab (Nottingham)
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Hi Rab,
Just glancing at this quickly as I get ready to go out the door.
I'll get back to you later once I take this in again. I need to refresh my memory as I've been working on something else (all night!).
Dave
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OK Rab.
Firstly, thanks for the compliment but, with the slightly unusual forename, I didn't have too much difficulty coming to the earlier conclusion.
Secondly, just because this is a long post, don't get your hopes up.
Bear with me. I hope you follow my train of thought.......
Now, here's a huge leap of faith which I considered last night. There are 4 later births in Leslie to a George Sinclair and May Heron.
1834 Alexander
1836 Mary
1838 Agnes
1843 John
I've looked for and cannot find a death for Mary Temple/Sinclair on SP.
Possibly she died before 1855.
Could she possibly have died and George re-married May Heron? Told you it was a giant leap of faith!
Depending on when Mary died, either she or May Heron could be Moncrieff's mother. Perhaps Mary died in childbirth or soon after and Moncrieff was never christened / baptised.
Even if George did not re-marry, Mary's death in or just after childbirth could explain lack of record of Moncrieff's birth.
I looked for George's death. The latest he could have been born was say 1810, given that his first son, Alexander was born 1826. I've assumed George died in Fife. So, I searched for George Sinclair (+Soundex) deaths in Fife aged between 44 (youngest he could be in 1855) and 120 (reasonable assumption ;D). There are only 5, 2 can be ruled out immediately as they are too young, 1 was born c1805 but it's not him (wife was Helen) and there are 2 whose age is unrecorded. I haven't looked at them. If neither of them is your George, then it seems he died prior to 1855 too.
Have you ever been able to find death for Mary or George? If not, you could ask someone to look for MI's.
Do you know when son Alexander died? Another supposition - if Alexander died young (prior to 1834), maybe the name was re-used in 1834 IF the George that married May Heron is one and the same.
That's about as far as my mind can take it and there are a heck of a lot of assumptions in all this. Might give you some ideas though.
Short answer to your question about birth records is, No.
As far as research facilities in Fife itself is concerned, pass. I was in St Andrews Information Bureau earlier this year and picked up a few leaflets / pamphlets about family research in Fife but unfortunately I can't locate them.
There is an LDS facility in Kirkcaldy but I doubt you would get any more there than is on IGI.
There is a Fife FHS in Methil but according to their site, there are no meetings in Dec or Jan, whether they are active at all in these months, I don't know.
Fife FHS site is here: http://www.fifefhs.org/index.htm
It lists various resources which I've not looked at in detail. I was hoping someone with more local knowledge would have joined the thread.
Sorry, for such a long post, I'm adding nothing conclusive but perhaps I've given you some ideas and not just muddied the waters.
Good luck.
Dave
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Sorry Rab,
Forgot another obvious line of enquiry.
Had a look at 1851 census for George.
The only George and Mary is George and Mary Heron. Interestingly, Mary is recorded as Mary Heron, not Mary Sinclair. Unmarried?
No George with any Mary 1861 onwards.
1861 census Mary Heron living with half brother in Dysart.
Back to SP.
Mary Temple / George Sinclair narried Edinburgh 1826.
No record of marriage pre 1855 of May / Mary Heron to George Sinclair.
No record of marriage post 1855 of May / Mary to George Sinclair.
Only likely death of Mary Heron - 1912 Mary Ann Heron age 83 (wife of William Stirling, minister).
One other thought.... Mary Temple has left George.
Searched for Moncrieff Temple birth - nothing.
Searched for Moncrieff Heron birth - nothing.
Dave
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hi rab/dave :)
local knowledge already here me! let me know which part of fife your going to and i will let you know. one place you must go to is kirkcaldy main library. right next to the train station. all oprs for fife plus all available census returns for fife plus from c1830 local newspapers. and much more
jacci :)
first another grandchild for george and mary
George SINCLAIR
address Dysart,St Clairtown
date of burial 23 Feb 1858
age 2weeks
son of Charles Sinclair
OPR OPR 426-8
George SINCLAIR
address Dysart,St Clairtown
date of death 22 Feb 1858
date of burial 23 Feb 1858
age 2weeks
son of Charles S\Margaret Simpso
OPR OPR426-8 & Stat.Reg Old Parochial Registers
rab you said mary temple was born in north leith
heres what i believe to be her parents and siblings from sp. mary must have been an important name to this family.
1) 03/01/1802 TEMPLE CECIL
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2696
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
2) 01/04/1809 TEMPLE ESTHER
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2780
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
3) 25/01/1811 TEMPLE GEORGE
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE FR2799
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
4) 04/07/1813 TEMPLE JAMES
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2831
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
5) 17/11/1804 TEMPLE JOHN
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2727
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
6) 03/05/1790 TEMPLE MARY
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY WATSON
FR2747
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
7) 05/11/1815 TEMPLE MARY ESTHER
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2863
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
8) 16/04/1807 TEMPLE MARY WATSON
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2753
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
9) 17/05/1819 TEMPLE ROBERT
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2911
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
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Hi Jacci,
I'm not even going to start trying to figure that lot out :)
That's Rab's job now! ;D
Very interesting about Kirkcaldy library. I'd like to say I'll visit but I am sooo lazy.
I live in Glasgow and have only been to The Mitchell once. That was earlier this year and I only stayed for an hour - food and bevvy beckoned.
Dave
PS - Rab, sorry we've not been able to help :P
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hi dave :)
you should get out more. the exercise would do you good.
i've got an excuse i'm choked up with the flu. :)
jacci
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Hi Davey/Jacci,
I can't believe the trouble you have both gone to on my behalf,
I'm so very very grateful to you both, really i am!.
Both of you have given me so much food for thought here, and it's always better to have 3 people scratching their heads than one!.
Davey, you asked me if i had young Alexander's death record, yes i do,
it says Father George Sinclair (Grocer) interesting because George Sinclair
(married to mary Heron) was a grocer!!, i wonder???, but then again, if mary temple died and George re married would he call his first born Alexander again?????, seems unlikely but i can't afford to rule it out.
Also, there is a marriage for George Sinclair and May Heron, and it's in Leslie!!
where my George married Mary Temple, this is getting even more likely that
this could be my George, i wonder if i can find a death for May Heron's husband
George??, i think i'll look into that, but then again i don't suppose that will tell me a great deal either.
Jacci, you gave me a list of Temple's born in North Leith and i can confirm that
Mary Watson Temple is the Husband of my George Sinclair, it states this on their marriage in Edinburgh.
Isn't it a pain in the backside when you can't fathom something out!!
i must confess right here and now, that i spend every wakeing minute thinking about this, i often wonder if i'll ever know??????????.
Jacci, thanks for the advise regarding Kirkcaldy library, it will definately be my first port of call next week.
Thankyou both very much for all your help with this, i'm quite overwhelmed at
the responce youv'e both given me, no really i am!, needless to say, if either
of you have anymore thoughts on this, i'd be very interested to know,
if i find anything out, i'll be sure to let you both know.
A HUGE THANKYOU TO BOTH OF YOU!!!.
kindest regards Rab Sinclair.
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Hi Davey/Jacci, one last thing i mean't to say, young Alexander
(George and mary's son) was living in Dysart on the 1851 census with his wife and children and indeed his brother Moncrieff, the interesting thing is May Heron being there with her half brother in 1861, in Dysart!!.
See Davey, your ideas are already rubbing off on me!.
Rab.
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Davey, you asked me if i had young Alexander's death record, yes i do,
it says Father George Sinclair (Grocer) interesting because George Sinclair
(married to mary Heron) was a grocer!!, i wonder???, but then again, if mary temple died and George re married would he call his first born Alexander again?????, seems unlikely but i can't afford to rule it out.
Rab,
That is why I asked if you had young Alexanders death. If he'd died before 1834 it would be more likely that Alexander's name was re-used. It was not uncommon to re-use the name of a child that had died. It is more unlikely since the younger Alexander was still alive.
I'm away to have another look at census records. 1841 census was never very accurate with ages. Maybe there was only 1 Alexander.
Dave
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When was the marriage George to May Heron. I must have overlooked it.
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Hi Davey,
George Sinclair and mary Heron married in 1833 Leslie Fife, there is a birth for an Alexander Sinclair b 1833
in Leslie but this is someone else, the father is a James Sinclair so we can rule that one out.
Young Alexander (George and Mary Temple's son )died in Dysart
in 1885 he lists his father as George and mother mary temple.
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I've got the downloaded baptism records for Alexander b1826 and Charles b1828.
Also baptism records for George and May Heron's 4 kids (all one doc).
If you PM me with email address, I'll pass them on.
Dave (No y) 8)
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thanks pal, that should do it.
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Rab,
If you ask about the same family again, please cross-refer.
We could have saved some duplication here.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0518/
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Hello Rab
Ive found Moncrieff Sinclair in the 1901 census - 87 lorne street dysart. listed as single so don't think its charles hope sinclairs son.
He is listed as a boarder at this house
Ken
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Hi Ken, Welcome to Rootschat.
I'd forgotten about this thread, it being almost 3 years ago.
Hope you read this Rab. Did you ever fathom out this particular query?
Dave
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Thanks
I did have contact from Rab last year, as we're on different branches of the same sinclair tree
its all fascinating!
Ken
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Hi, Dave and Ken
I've been gnawing at the bones of Moncrieff by e-mail with Rab for some time, but he hasn't responded for months now. Strange!
We've also gnawed at a lot of other Sinclair bones, especially over the George Sinclair/ Christian Tod - Mary Herron - Mary Temple issues (I think another thread exists somewhere).
Do you know the age of the Moncrieff whom you found on the 1901 census, Ken? Charles Hope Sinclair's brother appears to have been born ca 1830 in Auchtermuchty, and Charles' son was born 18 April 1861 at Dysart. I believe that the younger Moncrieff may have been married in 1884 at Dysart, so I agree with you that if the one you found was single he may well be Charles' brother. Was he a weaver or a potter?
In passing, which Sinclair lines do you both come from? I'm from the Alexander Sinclair/ Agnes Davidson - James Sinclair/ Agnes Adamson line and also related by a circuitous route to Rab.
Small world!
Jim
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Hello Jim
I'm off charles hope sinclairs line - he is my 3rd great grandfather.
I have moncrieff listed as 59 yrs old in 1901 census, single, bricklayers labourer, born kirkcaldy.....
1901 census
87 Lorne street, Dysart
Alexander Martin Head married 38 iron moulder kennoway
Mary Martin wife married 36 auchterderran
Alexander Martin son 15 linoleum tea boy kirkcaldy
Robert Martin son 9 scholar kirkcaldy
Margaret Sinclair mother in law married 69 annuitant auchtermuchty
John Martin boarder single 27 linoleum scrap picker dunfermline
Moncrieff Sinclair boarder single 59 bricklayers labourer kirkcaldy
Alexander Sinclair boarder single 30 iron moulder kirkcaldy
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Hello again, Ken
Thanks for that. Things are starting to add up - I hope.
Regarding the 1901 census, Mary, wife of Alex Martin, is obviously the 4th child of Charles Hope Sinclair and Margaret Simpson who is listed as 'mother-in-law' on the 1901 census. Their ages tally with the birth dates that I have.
The Alexander Sinclair, boarder, is by age the brother of Mary and 8th child of CHS and Margaret.
This takes us to Moncrieff who, by his age, is too old to be Alexander's brother and nearer to Margaret's age. He is also single. So, by my reckoning, he must be Margaret's brother-in-law and son of George Sinclair and Mary Temple.
Well done you for finding him.
In the 1851 census he was lodging at West Row, Dysart with brother Alexander and his family. His age was given as 20, born Auchtermuchty, occ. handloom weaver. So, 50 years later, he seems to have lost 11 years. Maybe he lied about his age to protect his job, for it wouldn't have been easy for a 70 year old to be a bricklayers labourer. No UB in those days.
As it appears to me, his father George died in June 1830 at Auchtermuchty, at some time after which Mary Temple found work as a schoolmistress in Dysart. So the elder Moncrieff was born either before his father's death or by the end of Spring 1831.
The 1841 census shows at Relief Wynd, Dysart:-
Mary Sinclair 50 Schoolmistress
Alexander S T Sinclair 14
Charles Hope Sinclair 12 Apprentice shoemaker
Moncrieff Sinclair 10
Ann Spalding 4
Hannah Dougatt 2
This seems to prove that the older Moncrieff was born 1830/31, although I can't find a birth cert for him. He may truly have been born in Auchtermuchty and been registered by his mother somewhere else, as we don't know where she was between 1830 and 1841. Maybe in the turmoil of being left without support she just forgot to register him. Possibly Moncrieff was his second given name.
The younger Moncrieff married in 1884 and died in 1921, aged 60, at Kirkcaldy Hospital. Death was notified by brother-in-law A. Martin. I haven't found the death of the older Moncrieff although it must have been after the 1901 census.
You've probably worked all this out for yourself, but am I on the right lines?
I haven't found any other Moncrieffs in the Sinclair branches. Do you know of any in Mary Temple's background? Where did the names Charles Hope come from?
In the course of this I've found my great grandfather's death cert. I believed he died in Leven but it was Kirkcaldy. So, another good bit of info for me!
It seems we're connected through the George Sinclair/ Catherine Suttie family tree and I'm a generation older than you.
Good to chat
Jim
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Hi Jim
I think you're right about moncrieff.
re mary temple, i have her parents as george temple and mary watson - thats all i have.
I had the details of the 1841 census but not the 1851 -do you have that?
in 1851 charles hope sinclair is residing in leslie
1851 census - Charles Sinclair
2 newtown, Leslie
William Wilkie - 60, married, shoemaker
Helen Duncan, 54, married, wife
Charles Sinclair, 22, unmarried, servant, shoemaker
David Tollock, 20, unmarried, servant, shoemaker
i dont have moncrieffs death either - thats an interesting point re his given name - maybe he was registered under something else?
Ken
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Hello again. Ken
Sounds like someone needs to delve into the roots of Mary Temple. She was obviously a lady of learning and I've wondered whether the Hope came from Charles Hope of Hopetoun House - no relation - but aspiration or a young girl's dream. The family was prominent in her childhood days.
What I know is her father was George Temple, shipbuilder, Leith.
Then marriage to
GEORGE SINCLAIR 26 FEB 1826 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian OPR
Death record
Mgt TEMPLE Dysart,Parkhead DoInt: 3 Jun 1847 Age: 57 OPR 426-8
You asked for details of the1851 census :-
Parish Dysart, Parly. Burgh Dysart, village of West Gallatown
3? West Row
Name Rel Status Age Occ Place of birth
Alexander Sinclair head mar 24 potter Leith, Midlothian
Isabella Sinclair wife mar 28 Dysart,Fife
Alexander Sinclair son 2 Dysart
George Sinclair son 2mos Dysart
Moncrieff Sinclair lodger unm 20 Handloom weaver Auchtermuchty
William Cooper lodger unm 18 potter England
I trust this all helps
Jim
Thanks for the 1851 info on Charles. He returned to an old Sinclair stamping ground - Leslie, probably through family connections.
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Hello Jim
I've come across a 'sinclair' in the 1861 census unmarried, born kirkcaldy aged 28. the index lists hims as Thoms Sinclair
the print on scotlands people is poor.
25 coal wynd, kirkcaldy
Thomas Sinclair lodger unmarried 28 agrictural labourer kirkcaldy. there are 3 other unrelated people in the house all listed as lodgers so it could have been some kind of dosshouse.
I havent looked at the births to check it out but its a possibility?
Ken
Image removed. Please do not post whole certificates(copyright)
small parts of image may be shown for handwriting recognition
Thank you - ev[/blue]
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Hello, Ken
Yes, it is poor quality but I've magnified it and the name is Thomas.
The only Thomas of this era that I have, was born 19 July 1835 at Leslie, a twin son of David Sinclair and Elizabeth Donaldson. That's from the Alexander Sinclair and Agnes Davidson branch and not through the branch that leads to the Moncrieffs.
If it is the above Thomas then it helps fill a blank for me. I've always wondered what happened to him. But there's a 2 year age gap, and the one you found was allegedly born in Kirkcaldy.
Jim
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Hello Ken,
I think we may have corresponded some years ago re our mutual Sinclair relations. Rab has just sent me the link to your recent chat about Moncrieff who has / have puzzled me a bit too. There seems to have been more than one of them. I have printed off a copy of the chat pages and will study them with interest.
You will be interested to know that I have now fallen into line with Rab's conclusions about which George Sinclair married Mary Temple in 1826 (it was a second marriage after his first wife Christian Tod died in 1822), and that George Sinclair who married Margery Heron was not the same man. As you will recall, George Sinclair (1800 - 1875) and Margery Heron (1800 - 1877) along with 4 children came to New Zealand in 1857. In recent months I set myself the task of researching their descendants in this country and have added quite a number of names and biographical information to my database. There is no evidence here that the NZ George was married to anyone other than Margery. I have also been pursuing the descendants of Christian Sinclair and Andrew Mackenzie in NZ. If you want to see the new data I can send you an invitation to view my tree on Ancestry.com.
My normal email is (*)
I take it you have moved on from Leeds? Somewhere here I have a photo of our visit to your mother in Kirkcaldy in 2004. We haven't been back to the UK since then but may do so next year as our daughter and son-in-law (now both naturalised Brits as well as being kiwis!) are still in London.
Looking forward to catching up again.
Regards
Don Hutton
Christchurch, New Zealand
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