RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: dagian on Tuesday 02 December 08 19:14 GMT (UK)
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As anyone researching Music Hall ancestors will know, it is devil of a job to try and trace ancestors who had a succession of stage names (and married more than once)!
Quite a number of my Lancashire Ancestors were in the Music Hall/Theatre from the 1920s.
As a novice (living overseas) I have explored most research avenues (and received quite a few knock-backs).
I have confirmed a link to Frank Randle (the Comedian) but there are a number of other relatives I have been unable to find any material about. Some connections I have managed to research (I have birth certificates for most, but not marriage or death certificates):
Mary Kelshaw/Genevieve Delaney
(Music Hall Artistes (Delaney and Lee))
Veronica Kelshaw
(The Veldons and Harry Friend)
James Delaney
(possibly known as Billy Willis (Comic))
Jack Greaves
(Comedian/Songwriter/Actor)
Jack Greaves had regular appearances on Coronation Street in it's early years, but Granada have not been particularly helpful. I have been unable to discover his real name.
Mary was my Grandmother, Genevieve and Veronica were her sisters. James Delaney was their Mother's 2nd husband.
I have searched the Stage online but could find nothing about the above personalities. I understand that the Manchester University Library has an extensive online Search facility but they did not respond to my request for information (access can be only gained from online Libraries in the UK but that does not help me).
I have studied My Ancestor worked in the Theatre but have not found anything that can help me further.
Would be most grateful for any suggestions that would help me further to obtain either their stage history or marriage/death information.
Thanks ???
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Frank Randle had a reputation, I haven't heard of the others though.
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Frank Randle had a reputation, I haven't heard of the others though.
http://www.prideofmanchester.com/comedy/frankrandle.htm
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The sisters:
freebmd shows:
Veronica Kelshaw b. 1893
married in 1914 as Veronica Kelshaw a.k.a. Vennie Veldon to Harry Friend a.k.a. Samuel Friend
their children seem to have been born surname surname Friend, mother's maiden name Kelshaw.
Genevieve Kelshaw AKA Delaney b. 1902 (seems to have been registered under both surnames - was James around then? Her father?)
There seems to be a book called King Twist about Frank Randle which mentions these families. Some of it is on Google Books. It quotes a conversation by Arthur Delaney, who I think is the son of Genevieve.
Summary:
Three sisters, 'Bennie' (Veronica/Vennie?), 'Mona' (Mary?), and 'Eva Delaney' (aka Genevieve Willis), Eva being his mother.
'Eva' and 'Mona' had an act, Delaney and Lee, but were sisters and their real name was Willis.
Bennie the elder was established with The Veldons and Harry Friend, and married 'two or three times'.
Eva/Genevieve had Arthur with a man she never married, Arthur McEvoy ( became Arthur Twist became Frank Randle), but later married Jack Greaves.
The father of the Willis sisters was Billy Willis.
It is mentioned that Delaney and Lee were tap-dancers.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/
has some divorce records indexed, including that for Harry Friend (aka Samuel) and Veronica Friend (aka Vennie), naming Jack Greaves as co-respondent in 1931!
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I think, as Veronica and Genevieve were born in Stockport, that Mary aka Mona might be:
Mary Monica Kelshaw, b. 1898 Stockport.
There's a postem on freebmd for Mary Monica that says:
Married John Louis Hudson
Divorced
Died Coventry 1970
(The marriage of John L. Hudson to Mary M. Kelshaw is on freebmd in Manchester in 1927).
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24699 - someone related to this line here.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24619 - and details from Mary Monica's birth certificate.
ETA: :-[ Didn't realise that was you in those last links!
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There's some great new info here !! :)
It's great that someone else could look over something I have and spot something I have missed.
Veronica and Monica (my Grandmother) were the daughters of Honora Gannon and Alfred Kelshaw (died in 1898). James Delaney was living as a lodger with Honora in 1901. Genevieve was born in 1902 to Honora Kelshaw and James Delaney, who married in 1906. GRO confirmed there is only one birth certificate which I have.
From this point the names become very confusing - James Delaney was shown in later records as James Delaney Willis (hence the Billy Willis stage name and the references to Willis Sisters). He was born in Manchester, according to his Marriage Certificate and Census, (Father George) but I can find no record - I suspect his Father came from Ireland. At the marriage of Mary Monica in 1927 he was shown as James Delaney Willis (as a witness together with another Music Hall artist Marguerite Docker).
Even Arthur Delaney (in King Twist) was confused by the names - he stated the sisters real name was Willis, which of course it wasn't. Arthur actually became one of Lancashire's most famous artists in later life.
The Mary Monica postem is incorrect - she married my Grandfather John Louis Hudson but they never divorced. :(
I have the book King Twist - I managed to piece together a lot of fragmented info I had by reading the book. I am also in touch with someone who actually appeared on stage with FR and is researching him.
Fascinating to hear that Jack Greaves appears to have had a liaison with both sisters - I met them all when I was a young lad. ::) It is the Jack Greaves connection I am trying to follow as I am trying to trace his daughter, June. who I am sure can contribute a lot to this research.
I overlooked the HARRY FRIEND name - I must admit to believing this was yet another stage name! Great to see that it has produced another possible five childrens names! :)
My apologies if you have taken time researching some info I already have; I didn't want to put too much detail in my orginal post. It's extraordinary that the huge amount of research I have undertaken can be summarised in a few paragraphs. It is therefore particularly pleasing to know there are people, such as yourself, who are able to take a detached, professional look and be able to help a novice move forward. :) :) :)
Many, many thanks.
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In the 1950's I was treated? to a theatre show, I did not know who was on that show, I don't think I could ever forget it.
Frank Randle was so rude (vulgar) that he was banned from many Theatres and venues because of the upset to ladies.
Things where different in those days, not like all the smut that is around these days.
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Genevieve had two children to Frank randle(Danny & Arthur Delaney)she later married tap dancer Christopher Bergin & had three more children Christopher,Michael(my dad)& Peter Bergin.all sadly passed away except my dad(Michael)who was a singer & went under the name Mike Lee.Im also called Michael & I am a singer aswell.I would love to hear from any relations coz I don't know any of them.
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Mike,
I do have details of some of your Cousins. I sent PM. Note that you will not be able to reply by PM until you have 3 Posts in the Forum but you can contact me via my Website.
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Hiya Ian,I'm not very good at using a computer so I don't know if you will receive this message.my dad remembers John Hudson as Jack.he is trying to find some photos of some of the family but any that you have I would love to see.I am so happy that you have replied to my messages & would love to know about my cousins or any thing to do with our family.thanks cousin.
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Mike,
Understand your Computer problems, not everyone is proficient in their use. Please visit my Website, go to CONTACT in the Menu on left side and complete the Form, giving your email address. I will then get back to you.
Ian
8)
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Mike,
I have details of most of Bergin Family but am missing Peter Bergin's Date and Place of Death. Can you help?
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Hiya Ian,just spoke to my dad & got some info on Peter.he was born on new York street c/m 30th July 44 at all saints,he married Margaret(from Ireland)& moved Toronto Ontario,Canada Margaret ran Off with the local pastor or someone.he then married another Margaret(Canadian)he died from alcohol(liver)late 60s early 70s in a place called missisorda,Toronto(I don't know if I've spelt it correct ian)
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Thanks Mike.
Have sent Mail.