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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: yelkcub on Tuesday 02 December 08 11:22 GMT (UK)
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I'm not sure if this is the right forum for my request. Perhaps the moderator would be good enough to suggest the right home for it.
I would value any help in deciphering a shorthand note found among the papers of an ancestor in South Australia. The document probably dates from the 1850s (that's what I have been told, anyway), and it was accompanied by a couple of sketches of koala bears.
The person who wrote the note was a well educated shipping agent, who had spent time in a commercial college in Germany. It is possible that the version of shorthand employed is a German system. You can see that one or two English words are used among the text. Apologies for the quality of the scan - taken from a photocopy sent from Australia.
If no decipherment is possible, I would value any advice on a next step.
With thanks
Ian
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Hi,
the letter looks, how Stenografie http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenografie, when he was in Germany, then perhaps is this a write in fastshrift.
I can this not, but sure you find a profi, perhaps in the museum in Germany.
The secretary learn this in Germany, but I think , that in our time is the shrift is better.
I wish good luck, think, that are shrift from the study.
Bye, good luck!!!
When you have a translator, from the text, send me, its interest!!!!!!
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My wife, who was a personal secretary to a senior manager in the shorthand era says it looks like Pitman's to her, but she can't read it, suggesting that it may well be in German, or indeed some other language.
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I have seen this before, and I couldn't read it then, either...... sorry. Looks like Pitman to me but still can't read it.
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Yes, I agree - I write Pitman New Era - and that's what it looks like - but it's a bit early surely for that, so may be an earlier Pitman shorthand which would make it awkward to dicipher even if in english. Funnily enough I was at a conference - and realised that the people sitting either side of me were also making notes in shorthand - the elderly lady to my left was writing Greggs, and the younger woman to my right was writing T-line. We were all amused - a sort of 20th Century microcosm of shorthand writing.
Regards
Derby Girl
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Definitely Pitman's and more like the version I learned than Pitman's New Era. Can't read most of it though.
Lizzie
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I'm pleased to see that this OLD post of mine (December 2008) has been attracting some new interest, and I'm grateful to those of you who have responded. I'm afraid I have nothing to add to the detail in my first post - except to say that the document may be later than the 1850s - but no later than 1876. I've been wondering why 'Bridgewater Hotel' and 'Mrs Robinson' (and another longhand word I'm not sure of) should have been written in longhand in the middle of a shorthand note. One explanation might be that the rest of the note is in German, or French, both of which languages my ancestor spoke fluently. James Page had, so the story goes, been born in London, educated at the Sorbonne and later at a commercial college in Hamburg. He prospered in Adelaide, where he migrated with a couple of his brothers in 1850: he was a shipping agent whose business specialised in the trade to and from francophone New Caledonia.
Thanks again for all responses IAN
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It looks like Pitman to me to, but I must be rusty cos I'm having trouble reading it!
I will say that I used to put down the odd word in longhand if I thought I would have trouble transcribing it later - as in your letter, proper names being an example. Seems to me that if the longhand is in English then the rest of it would be too.
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As the consensus seems to be that it is some form of Pitman's why not try contacting the Pitman College to ask if they can help or suggest who can help with historic Pitman documents.
I think this link may help
http://www.pitman-training.com/our-story.html
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But, but, but!
The lady from Germany, reply #1, gave you the answer - it is in German and you will find help perhaps in a German museum.
esdel
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Hi,
I ask the Saxony Museum in Dresden, we must wait, perhaps they can help.
By Lutz, a man!!!!!!
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It does look very much like a form of Pitman shorthand but I can't read any words at all (I learnt New Era in 1978-1980).
However there are many 'x' which was used to denote a full stop and also two little strokes close together beneath an outline (looks a bit like a little 11) which denoted the word was a proper noun to be transcribed with a capital letter. I am surprised that '@' appears several times though as that would take much longer to write than the outline for 'at' which is just a vertical stroke. Maybe '@' is the writer's own shorthand for something or a place that often crops up when they're writing shorthand.
Hope you find out what it says, it's tantalising when it looks so clear but is totally untranscribable :(
Heather
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Heather - I agree it does look like Pitman but when you try to read it, it is impossible. I even had a look at an old Pitman's book to see if I could find anything in there that would help.
I had already had a PM from Ian about it and did try, but totally failed to decipher anything. As I said to him, if there weren't the odd words in English and the @ sign, I would have thought it was a mirror image of the original.
I was surprised there were so many marks for vowels etc. Most people I know that use Pitman's don't bother with those once they've become used to making the outlines.
Lizzie
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Is this an attempt to distinguish umlauts etc, if the text is German, or other accents if in another language?
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You're right about all the marks for vowels Lizzie, it certainly doesn't seem to have been written at speed. More like someone writing words that are unfamiliar to them and adding as much information as possible, so quite possibly in a foreign language.
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This discussion becomes more and more interesting! If I'm understanding correctly, there seem to be two main schools of thought:
1. The document is written in a variety of Pitman - though there are features (vowel markers) not normally used by shorthand practitioners, which may indicate that the note is in a language other than English.
2. The document is written in a German form of shorthand. I am grateful to Lutz ('SaxonbyChemnitz') for offering to take the image to the Saxony Museum in Dresden when he gets the opportunity. Vielen Dank, Lutz - dass ist sehr nett von Ihnen. Certainly my ancestor James Page spoke German (and French and, reportedly, other languages).
Whichever of the above proves to be correct, I'm more and more convinced that James Page wrote this note in shorthand as a way of keeping the contents from anyone else likely to pick up his notebook - the rest of whose contents are in longhand English. My other observation is that someone used to writing shorthand over a long period (the note was written 30 years after JP attended the commercial college in Hamburg) is likely to make personal adaptations to the system he was taught.
I'm really grateful for all these contributions - and hope we can crack the code one way or another!
Ian
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Actually, even early on you tend to develop your own short forms for things, depending on the sort of subject you are writing - the sort of work you are engaged in. It's difficult for one shorthand writer to read another's writing at any time therefore. The other thing is Pitman (New Era) shorthand - don't know about earlier Pitman - is written on three levels, and the paper looks blank, where normally you would prefer to use lined paper, so putting in some vowels might very well help transcription at a later date.
Regards
Derby Girl
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My other observation is that someone used to writing shorthand over a long period (the note was written 30 years after JP attended the commercial college in Hamburg) is likely to make personal adaptations to the system he was taught.
Which makes it all the more surprising that he has added all the vowel symbols, as I said mose experienced shorthand writers ignore those once they are proficient.
I agree Derby Girl that Pitman's is written on three levels, but again although that is how I was taught - and it was 50 years ago :o I don't bother with those different levels now. I can read my own shorthand, and some people might be able to read bits of it, but probably not all of it.
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True, but if I knew it was a note that I was keeping for years and wanted to be able to read when I was 70, I might well do a belt and braces job and add a few vowels. Yes, I know I can read it if I write on plain paper but never feel quite comfortable about it, especially if it's something I want to keep. I take minutes and sometimes there can be contention six months on, so I want to be able to say if problems arise - yes, that is what was said.
Derby Girl
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If the document IS from the 19th century then surely it cannot be written in Pitman new era shorthand, though as an outsider who did one term of shorthand at night school in 1960 and has forgotten the little I learned, the shapes look like Pitman to me.
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>Sehr geehrter Herr Herms,
>
>das Schriftstück zeigt eine geometrische Kurzschrift, die zu der
>genannten Zeit in Deutschland fast keine Rolle mehr spielten.
>
>Ich würde aufgrund der Diakritika auf das englische System Pitman
>tippen. Der Verlag Pitman existiert noch (in Bath und wahrscheinlich
>auch in London). Versuchen Sie es doch dort einmal.
>
>Beste Grüße
>Boris Neubauer
>
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He think, that the Pitman is.
Pitman company exist by London, that is the part to ask.
Bye Lutz
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Sehr geehrter Herr Hermsdorf,
das Stenogramm ist in Pitman´scher Stenographie geschrieben.
Jocob Pitmann (Baumeister und Architekt und Bruder von Isaak Pitman) ging 1837 nach Süd-Australien und führte dort die Pitman'sche Stenographie ein.
In Deutschland kenne ich nur einen Herrn, der in der Lage wäre, das zu übertragen. Könnten Sie mir mitteilen, welchen Umfang die Stenogramme haben? Wenn ich den betreffenden Herrn frage, will er immer erst wissen, wieviel Seiten es ungefähr sind.
Ein m.E. leichterer Weg wäre sicher über die englische Steno-Gesellschaft:
Incorporated Phongraphic Society (I.P.S.), Patron: Mrs. Margret Pitman-Miller. Chairman ist:
Mrs Mary Sorene, FIPS (*)
Rosemarie Hänsel
Sächsische Landesbibliothek -
Staats- und Universitätsbibliothek Dresden
Stenographische Sammlung
01054 Dresden
Besucheradresse: Zellescher Weg 18
Telefon: +49-0351 4677-542/541
Telefax: +49-0351 4677-731
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ihre SLUB Dresden/ Ref. Informationsservice
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Hi, only five minutes, my so ......
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The Dresden Museum say, that is in Pitman, shorthand
Jacob Pitmann going in 1837 to south-Australien, there he maked the shorthand public.
In Germany, she know only a translator, and this man ask , how many pages, because the price is important.
She say, better we ask the
Incorporated Phongraphic Society (I.P.S.), Patron: Mrs. Margret Pitman-Miller. Chairman ist:
Mrs Mary Sorene, FIPS (*)
Rosemarie Hänsel
Sächsische Landesbibliothek -
Staats- und Universitätsbibliothek Dresden
Stenographische Sammlung
01054 Dresden
Besucheradresse: Zellescher Weg 18
Telefon: +49-0351 4677-542/541
Telefax: +49-0351 4677-731
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ihre SLUB Dresden/ Ref. Informationsservice
(*) Moderator Comment: address and e-mails removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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If the document IS from the 19th century then surely it cannot be written in Pitman new era shorthand, though as an outsider who did one term of shorthand at night school in 1960 and has forgotten the little I learned, the shapes look like Pitman to me.
Roger - I learned Pitman's shorthand in 1958 so definitely before Pitman new era and it had been around in the mid 1800s. Odd that my cousin, 5 years older than me learned Gregg's shorthand.
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Perhaps I didn't learn Pitman's because there were too many distractions, I was 50% of the males in a class totalling 25!
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NOT PITMAN, apparently
I sent the page of shorthand to the person recommended to Lutz by Dresden museum, and she was kind enough to examine it for me. Here's her reply:
"... I wondered whether it was Pitman's Centenary and contacted a more knowledgeable source:
'With regards to the attached shorthand - it is not Pitman (as there is a thickened stroke written upwards that looks like an "L"). Pitman from the outset realised that it would be difficult to write thick strokes upwards - so eliminated it - therefore this is not Pitman. It could be something like Sloan-Diployan - but not sure.'"
Hmmm - what next? IAN
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I wonder if there's a professional body for secretaries that might be able to help? Perhaps somewhere like this? http://uksecretaries.co.uk/
Maybe one of their members would recognise or be able to transcribe the shorthand?
Heather
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I think it would need to be one of their older retired members by now.