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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Stefan Woolf on Sunday 23 November 08 22:37 GMT (UK)
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Some individual studio portaits have come to light of my grandfather's four sisters.
The pictures, probably from about 1895 are from the Aylesbury, Thame & Tring studios of Mr & Mrs S.G. Payne & Son.
The young ladies in question would be roughly 24, 22, 17 & 15.
Each is wearing an elaborate dress, but the mystery is that each seems to be wearing exactly the same, (or same type of) dress. (Although we do wonder if each may be of a different colour ?).
It seems unlikely that they went to the studio and each put on the same dress in turn, but equally it seems odd that girls with an age spread of 9 years each had an identical dress made, (and they look very elaborate dresses).
Has anybody encountered anything like this, please, and if so do you have any explanation for it ?
Minnie Jane (b 1871)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfincher/Genealogy/MiinieJane.jpg)
Lizzie (b 1873)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfincher/Genealogy/Lizzie.jpg)
Annie (b 1878)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfincher/Genealogy/Annie.jpg)
Lottie (b 1880, and the only one to marry)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfincher/Genealogy/Lottie.jpg)
Many thanks,
Stef
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I don't think they are the same dresses,the pleats below the ribbing are slightly different in each case.It may be one of them was a seamstress/dressmaker & made 4 the same.
jim
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Thanks Jim,
We are also erring towards thinking they are 4 dresses in the same style, rather than the same dress worn in turn by each girl.
I must admit we have missed the fine detail to which you refer.
We are also coming to the conclusion based on subtly different greys in each photo, that they may be in different colours.
It still seems odd though to dress 4 girls with ages spanning 9 years in near identically styled attire.
Well odd to us, anyway! That's why I'm keen to know if others have encountered it in their photo collections.
Stef.
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I think it's quite possible that it's the same dress. If the family was not well-off and couldn't afford a lovely dress like that for each daughter, perhaps they did pass it around for their photos to be taken.
I agree that the pleats do look slightly different but they could have been arranged individually by the wearer, and I expect that the wearer's different physical attributes could also account for it (you know what I mean!)
Just thought of something else - could it belong to the studio? They have feather boas and cowboy hats these days, maybe that was the 19th century equivalent!
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Hi,
Yes, we have also considered it might be the studios.
However the family were relatively, (though not exceptionally) well off, the father having managed to become a coal merchant some years earlier, and an employer of several men by the time of these portraits. A couple of the daughters appear to have been well enough provided for that they never needed to work.
There are several other surviving studio portraits of the family that also seem to say money was not an issue.
If you look at this picture, (same studio), presumably taken two or three years previous, you can see all daughters are fairly lavishly dressed.
Incidentally the young lad, Harry, is my grandfather. He looks slightly disconnected from the whole process, as he does in other photos too. This is probably related to the fact that he was completely deaf from a very early age.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c22/adfincher/Genealogy/AlfredFinchersChildren.jpg)
Stef.
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Interesting to see that the dresses that the girls top right and bottom left are wearing, seem to be pretty much alike! Perhaps it was just easier to make them from the same pattern! My mother used to make clothes for me and my sister who is a couple of years older than me, and she did just that with some of our clothes, although she would make a variation in the colours. I only found out in recent years that my sister hated it!
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I missed that.
Yes they are very alike, aren't they! Perhaps it was just something my family did for no particular reason!
I've never heard that this side of the family had any dressmakers. On the other side of my family a great grandmother was allegedly a court dressmaker, but as she also seems to have regularly been "economical with the truth", I'm not sure that claim can be taken seriously, (although she did make my grandmother's wedding dress!).
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When did the fashion for bridesmaids begin?
I've seen twenties photos of lots of matching gowns (in light colours) but could this be an early version?
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Interesting comment about the dressmakers too.
My grandmother was a dressmaker with five sisters who all seem to have been teachers. According to the 1901, she worked "at home" and I had thought it would be paid work but having also been given photos with dresses of similar fashions, perhaps it was just a full time job making clothes for the rest of the family. It must have taken a long time to make those elaborate dresses in the days before sewing machines.
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Stef,
Each dress is different. If you have a look around the collars, Minnie Jane has embrodery on the collar, and a pattern in the material on the sleeve (maybe a lighter embrodery). Lizzie, nothing, plain material. Annie, embroidery, different colour sleeve to Minnie Jane's. Lottie, bottom collar is different colour/material to the top one. Maybe they had a pattern that was liked by each of the girls, and mum decided to snap it up while she had it. We all know most girls/sisters would never ever like the same design in dresses, and the embroidery, colours were used instead to show their individuality.
Victoria
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Hi Stefan........Heres a couple of your photo's restored and coloured, I was unsure if to colour the dresses different colours or to keep them the same, as you can see I have kept them the same.
Carolyn :)
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I'm fascinated by the buttons, which are all the same. (I have a small collection of antique glass buttons).
Perhaps they each wore the same dress for some sentimental reason?
Regards,
Josephine
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Lovely work, Carolyn!
It's the same dress...at least these two are in the same one. Look at the fabric details around the buttons.
Cheers,
China
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They may have all been made by the same dressmaker, giving them all the same buttons.
Carolyns picture is Minnie Jane's dress on both girls. The second girls original picture hasn't got anywhere near that much detail on it. This picture might make it clearer about the collars. They're all so similar it's not funny, except for subtle differences.
Victoria
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Can't help you with the dress question ... but have a question of my own. In the group photo ... is it just my eyes, or is Minnie Jane really, really slouching, ... or ... is she extremely long from hip to knee? ???
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Carolyn! What did you do?? That's incredible!
China
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Ooh, just noticed, each of them is wearing a different brooch or collar decoration, too
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In the 1st. picture you can't see all of the dress,my guess is that at least the youngest has a shorter hem as shown in the 2nd. picture.This was the norm for girls up to about 16/17.Lovely photo's.
jim
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it gives this message but not for profit
You are free:
to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
texashistory.unt.edu/browse/contributor/PCEBF...
sylvia
classmates
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Can't help you with the dress question ... but have a question of my own. In the group photo ... is it just my eyes, or is Minnie Jane really, really slouching, ... or ... is she extremely long from hip to knee? ???
Good eyes Deb. It almost appears that she has something under the dress over her knees. Her knees appear almost squared off
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I thought it was the chair arm but then realised that the boy was holding that. I don't think it's her leg though, as aislin says, it's squared off. It's also extremely broad there.
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Had she lost her feet or left foot, say from about mid-calf? Is she in a wheelchair/bathchair? Do you have any pictures of her standing?
I don't think it would necessarily have been strange for four unmarried sisters to dress alike. Parents still dress twins the same, and even more so in the past.
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Could the four ladies be wearing some sort of 'Uniform'? Perhaps they all belonged to a club, organization etc and this was their attire?
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It must have taken a long time to make those elaborate dresses in the days before sewing machines.
Sewing machines have been around since the 1850s, worked by turning the wheel by hand, or by a foot treadle. They would not be beyond the means of a comfortably-off family in the late 1800s.
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:P Has anybody counted the pleats yet ?
I really can't face it just now :P :P :P ::)
Rachel
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What weird and wonderful tangents this hobby takes us off on!
The more I look at Minnie's "knees" ... the more it looks like a "cage" that was - and still is - often used (for example, in hospitals, for burns victims) to keep either the weight or the scratchiness of fabric, away from the lower legs. I wonder if Minnie had had some sort of injury, or a skin condition that made contact with the lower skirts of her dress either painful or irritating when she sat down?
*ps it's too early in the morning for me to even think about counting pleats LOL*
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My first impression regarding Minnie Jane's knees (at least I think it was Minnie Jane) was that she had some sort of cushion under her skirt over her knees. Maybe someone was going to sit on her lap? Very curious.
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Does it mention anything on a census about a disability ? :-\
Rachel
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Hello all, I'd no idea Minnie Jane's knees or legs would attract so much attention. :D
I can't offer any explanation about any unusual appearance, and wonder if she has just slumped down in the chair to give a better composition with the other girls.
There are pictures of her standing, and her only known disability was that she ended up fairly deaf, (she used a large ear trumpet, apparently).
She worked as a sorting clerk and telegraphist in a variety of Herts & Beds Post Offices, and was eventually awarded a Civil Service medal for long service, (I found details in the London Gazette).
I don't think she was particularly tall - it's Lizzie that looks like she was probably the tallest. But my grandfather Harry's world war one service record claims 5' 9", but when pictured beside my father (6' 1"), they are very much matched, so I tend not to believe reported heights anyway.
Very interesting that other photo of 4 similarly dressed.
I don't think mine relate to a uniform or a club membership. Certainly church wise the family were Strict Baptist, so no dressing up, or chorister possibilities there.
Here's another poor image of the family.....
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Thanks China for your appreciation.
Carolyn :)
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Hi Stef........Heres another colour interpretation of the family in colour.
Carolyn :)
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I think you'll find the term "Strict Baptist" refers to a theological position, not a behavioral one...Strict Baptist is akin to Particular Baptist, who hold that Christ's atonement was on behalf of a particular group of people. I think the "strict" term applies to their requirement for membership in their churches.
It may surprise you that the current fundamentalist practice of don't do this, don't do that and don't do the other thing...is very modern. It's all externalism, and not from the Bible. Of course there are certain things the Bible says God abhors, but dressing up isn't one of them :)
Charles Spurgeon, probably the most famous Baptist preacher England has ever known, was Strict Baptist. He enjoyed brandy and tobacco.
Cheers,
China
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in that gorgeous colour of minnie and her debated knees the red dress and the brown dress are also identical!!
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Wow!
What super colours!
Many thanks.
As to the "Baptist" element, I'm fairly up to speed on the Baptist side as my grandfather, (the other one not the one here), was a Baptist minister including a spell as minister at the chapel in question. So my mum, still with us, is a Baptist minister's daughter, and her sister, my aunt, was also married to a Baptist Minister.
Tring Herts has some fame for having had many Baptist chapels, I think 5 simulaneously at one stage, and still has three active ones to this day. My grandfather Harry, in the pictures, married in one of the other ones during WW1.
Knowing what I do about the chapels, I'm sure there would have been nothing going on that requirred all my great aunts to wear similar dresses!
The three who never married share a grave at that chapel with their parents, and the married one and her husband are buried in the next plot.
Stef
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www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/tidbits.php?index=1
part of the info on this site
sylvia
dont let the corset name put you off.
Children were supposed to be seen and not heard and when they were seen, they often were dressed alike, despite age differences! This custom was prevalent in the 19th century although rich parents dressed their children alike
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What a wonderful site!
Thank you, Sylvia!
Regards,
Josephine
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Just going off topic for a minute ...........
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Signs/offtopic-929432.gif)
I got a brilliant birthday card last year for my sister. On the front it said "Remember those embarrassing clothes our mother used to make us wear?"
And inside "Well you can stop now!"
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-049.gif)
Luckily she took it in the spirit it was intended!
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deb
I see what you mean,
It's like her dress is draped over a bench, ???
Eilleen.
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On the second group photo where Minnie is stood at the back it looks like she may be supporting herself on two walking sticks.
Her arms look very straight and rigid compared to the other ladies.
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It was quite common years ago for sisters to have 'matching' dresses made from same pattern or material with slight alterations to collars, sleeves, etc. Apparently my grandmother and her sisters were often dressed this way when their mother made their clothes. Suspect a large bolt of material was bought cheaply and used until all was used up.
The two older girls in this picture were born 1893 and 1895 and the same material was used for both of their outfits.
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On the second group photo where Minnie is stood at the back it looks like she may be supporting herself on two walking sticks.
Her arms look very straight and rigid compared to the other ladies.
I see what you mean - she does look a bit "rigid".
However there's no suggestion in the family that she was ever in any way disabled, other than she was quite hard of hearing in later life.
Personally I think she is holding the two chair backs of those sat in front of her.
Stef.