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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: yorkierose on Saturday 05 February 05 09:11 GMT (UK)
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I really don't know where to look for my great grandfather Bertram Horace Wilkes. I found his marriage record for 1917, Hemsworth showing his age as 22 and occupation Private in the KOYLI so looked for a medal card, which I found, but it wasn't clear to read from the downloaded record. I then found his death record and sent off for that - but as he died in 1952, his birth date and place was not recorded. I have been unable to find any more information - no sign of him on the 1901 census. All entries followed up from the CRI haven't turned up anyone - the nearest was Bertram Horace Wilkes in Leicester 1896 - but it would appear he died age 1. On Berts marriage record it shows his father as Samuel Wilkes (deceased) Shingler (Foreman). I know that he had a brother, Abraham Wilkes and two sisters, Maud & Mary Wilkes, but haven't found anything on them either.
Any suggestions as to where else I can look?
:-\
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If you were unable to read the Medal Card, you could obtain the information on it by writing to ARMY NAVY & AIRFORCE MEDALS Dept, RAF Innsworth, Gloucester, GL2 1DW. They will supply medals to the next of kin (which might be someone closer (say your father or grandfather) in relationship if these have not been issued before. You need to be next of kin to obtain information, or think you are next of kin.
Armed with this information and his ARMY number you can then research at the PRO Kew to find his record. Hope this helps. Graham
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Sorry, Innsworth is GL3 1DW for postcode.
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I tried hard on this - all the names on freeBMD - 1901 census, 1891 census, 1881 census, even just under Occupation Shingler, residence Yorkshire.
I am now thinking aloud - the Yorkshire marriage was because he was in the KOYLI, not because he was born there. He may have enlisted elsewhere altogether, even in Ireland where recruiting was strong. That would mean a Protestant family, probably from Ulster. at that time very few Irish Catholics would enlist in the British Army. That is all guesswork but it may give you some direction. 8)
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I have also tried hard on this - the other week and this morning.
Not being sure what a shingler was, I looked that up to see if it would give me some idea of where I should be looking. Like Hackstaple, I couldn't find any reference to a Samuel WILKES with shingler as occupation in the 1901 census.
I came across this description:
Baller ; iron industry worker
"When the metal begins to melt it is the business of the puddler to watch it from time to time until it is ready for what is technically called BALLING, i.e. dividing the metals into separate balls or quantities or puddle-rolls; which having been done, they are handed over to the shingler, who has the direction of a large and heavy hammer worked by steam or water power, and the rough hot metal is, by repeated blows brought to a more compact form for the rolling mill." From the Employment Commission reports 1842
The other shingler was a manufacturer of wooden roof tiles.
Of course you may already know all of this but just in case .....
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Thank you everyone - I will look at all your suggestions carefully this weekend.
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I checked. The 2nd Battalion of the KOYLI were in Ireland from 1889-1914. 8)
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On FreeBMD there is a reference to BERTWIN Hoarace Wilkes, birth registrered March Quarter 1897 Walsall 6b 775 there are also references to Abraham and Maud
In the 1901 census (looking online) there is no suitable reference for Wilkes BUT trying WILKS there are a number of possibilities.
It may not be the answer (sorry) but it may be a lead
Happy hunting
Chris
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Hi Shelly
Just another thought.
Have you any further information on any of Bert's siblings ie. did any of them die in England 1969 or later when index entries give date of birth.
Might it be easier to track one of them back?
Yorkshire libraries should have street directories for the date in question (1917) which will list head of household but I'm not sure which library Hemsworth would come under. Electoral registers are also a good lead - especially from 1918 when all males over 21 and women over 30 had the vote.
http://www.familia.org.uk/services/england/north_yorks.html
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Again, thanks everyone for your efforts. Unfortunately I don't know much about Berts siblings, other than their names. I have quizzed Mum this afternoon and she isn't sure about when these relatives may have died, but does think they lived longer than her grandfather (Bert) who was only 55 when he died, and they all lived in the Pontefract district so I'm guessing the whole family came to this area of Yorkshire at some point. It would be a guess, but I think Bertram may have been the eldest of the four children, so perhaps there's the possibility of finding something out about his brother/sisters that will lead me to their ancestors.
There is a slight discrepancy between the ages recorded on Berts marriage entry in 1917 (Age 22) and his death in 1852 (Age 55) - perhaps he told a fib or two to join the army?
I will look again at the varients for the surname - I think I did come across an Abraham Wilks who was a Singler on the 1881 census in Wednesbury, Staffordshire who had a son Samuel, but when I followed them to the next census the trail went cold - perhaps I should re check!!
Cheers
Shelly
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continue your research and dont give up u will sucess good luck
azza :) :)
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Graham. I can read the handwriting on the medal card, but can't make out the typed headers of the card itself so don't really know what the reference numbers mean - any ideas?
Shelly
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TRY THESE:
Name Corps Rank Regt No.
Medal Roll. Page. Remarks
VICTORY
BRITISH
STAR
Theatre of War first served in
Date of entry therein K1380.
[From my Great Uncle's Medal card in 1915]
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Thanks Graham..... Bertram's card reads
Name Corps Rank Regt. No.
WILKES Yorkshire L.I. Pt. 3342
Bertram Late? Corps " 609069
Medal Roll. Page Remarks
VICTORY LC/101B235 23933
BRITISH -------------"----------
STAR (15) LC/5102 W/8617
Theatre of War frst served in 1
Date of entry therein 19.8.15 K????
Hopefully from this info I should be able to find out more! On his marriage record in Feb 1917 he states his age as 22, so he should have been 20 when he joined the KOYLI, but his death record in April 1952 shows him as 55, making him around 18 in 1915 - still old enough to join the army so I don't see the point in fibbing!??!?!
If only they had text messenging 'on the other side'!!! lol
Shelly
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he was more than likely 'fibbing' as even the men had to have parent's permission to marry before the age of 21yrs back then
Corbie :)
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Good thinking Corbie.....I wonder if he was also fibbing about his father, saying he was deceased when perhaps he wasn't!?!? The mystery just gets deeper.
Shelly
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Found this family on 1901 ... no sign of Bertram BUT there is an Abraham (Grandad), Samuel (Father) and a Maud (daughter) .... Samuel is an iron worker - puddler. There is always the possibility that his ages are wrong on all 3 counts - my grandfather is 10 years older than he should be on his marriage cert for no obvious reason!
1901 Census
Abraham Johnson 58 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Head Sedgley Staffordshire
Eliza Johnson 64 Nk, Shropshire, England Wife Sedgley Staffordshire
Saml Johnson 5 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Adopted Son Sedgley Staffordshire
Job Wilkes 1 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Grandson Sedgley Staffordshire
Lily Wilkes 10 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Granddaughter Sedgley Staffordshire
Maud Wilkes 6 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Granddaughter Sedgley Staffordshire
Sam Wm Wilkes 4 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Grandson Sedgley Staffordshire
Samuel W Wilkes 33 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son-in-law Sedgley Staffordshire
Sarah Wilkes 34 Sedgley, Staffordshire, England Daughter Sedgley Staffordshire
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I'm doubtful this is the right family beansoup, but I thank you for taking the time to look - Mum is pretty certain there were only 3 siblings for Bert - Abraham, Maud & Mary and she thinks they were all younger than her grandfather Bertram - but then again.....she could be wrong. Bert, Abe, Maud & Mary all lived in Yorkshire but there could have been other family we weren't aware of - especially as they may have been born outside Yorkshire.
As yet, I haven't come across any records for his siblings in Yorkshire - the joys of family history!
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messing with pic
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I decided to take a break from trying to find Bertram Wilkes and family for a while because I was just going round in circles and not really getting anywhere. I then discovered a website I hadn't seen before www.familyrelatives.org and managed to track down two of Bert's siblings who turn out to have been older than him, which is not at all what I originally thought. I found Maud G Wilkes marrying Alfred Parsons in Hemsworth 1911 (I already knew her married name was Parsons, although didn't know the first name of her husband). I then found Abraham Wilkes marrying a Sarah E Clark in the Wakefield District in 1912. (I know that Abraham lived near Normanton (possibly Heath or Warmfield) which comes under the Wakefield area). From the same website I have also managed to find birth entries for children of Maud and also Abraham - but have still not found any record of the family on the 1901 census though which is most frustrating.....aaaargggh!!
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It just goes to show that you should never give up!!! I finally, after well over a year of searching, found my great grandfather Bertram Wilkes on the 1901 census under the name Bertie Clark!!! To cut a long story short, Bert's father Samuel Wilkes died when Bert was a baby in Staffordshire and his mother (Ada Esther) remarried a Frank Clark in 1900, Hemsworth - hence the children being recorded with their stepfather's surname on the 1901 census. The jigsaw puzzle is almost complete and I have managed to track the family back through census records and bmd's to c.1801 but...and there's always a but!! The 1901 census shows Bert's age as 1 year. Now that would make him 17 when he married in 1917, yet his marriage certificate states age 22. I know he could have lied about this, but when he died in 1952 his age was shown on his death certificate as 55, making his year of birth c.1897?? So the question is - when, between 1895 and 1900 was Bertram born? The 1901 census gives place of birth as Torrester, Staffs. I can't find such a place, so a bit more digging is needed - ah well, almost there. ;)
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Hi Shelly
Don't know whether this helps. Between 1895-1900 there was only one Bertram Wilkes born according to FreeBMD. He was born in Mar quarter of 1896 ref Leicester 7a 247. I haven't managed to find Torrester (or anything like it!) either but Leicestershire is next door to Staffs
Jud
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Hmmm! I'll tag on to this after you've solved most of the mystery-typical eh?
I've also had a good dig round for Torrester & come up with a great big fat zero- is the name as transcribed or is it from the original census page? Nearest I could come up with was a Forrester Road in Stone or even Forsbrook in the Staffordshire moorlands!!! I'm guessing that Samuel died in 1899 (either in Stafford age 42 or Walsall age 36) they were the only entries on Freebmd that seemed to fit! But if that is him surely Frank & Esther would be able to tell the difference between a 1 year old & a 3/4/5 year old? Had a quick look for a Bertram Clark being born- not a lot of luck there either.
Sorry I've probably been of no help whatsoever but maybe it'll throw up some differnt ideas (she says hopefully!!!!)
All the best
Rose
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Judy I had looked at the Leicester entry previously as a possibility and came to the conclusion that the entry in the following year's deaths for Bertram Wilkes in Leicester age 1 was the same person....but thank you all the same.
Woody, I appreciate your effors too and I am in agreement that Samuel probably died in 1899 Walsall - and that the most likely chap was the 36 year old. It would have been so much easier if everyone just stuck to their proper names and ages!!
I am reading the name Torester from the orignal enumerator's record and looking at the handwriting and at other place names on the same sheet, I would definitely say it was Torester instead of Forester, Staffordshire. (RG13/4307 Folio 61 Pg 18).
Free BMD shows the following entries: Bertie Wilkes 1895 Jun Qtr Walsall, Bertrand Wilkes 1898 Jun Qtr Stone, Bert Wilkes 1899 Sept Qtr Walsall, Bertie Wilkes 1896 Dec Qtr Cheadle, Bertwin Horace Wilkes 1897 March Qtr Walsall. Now the latter entry looks favourite as my g.grandfather was known as Bertram Horace Wilkes, but that still throws the question, how can he be 1 year old in 1901 - I know about rounding up and down, but not when you're less than 5 years old?!?!
It's all good fun this isn't it.....I feel a bit like Sherlock Holmes!! lol Actually, I do have Holmes in my family tree.... now there's a thought!!!!!
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Howdy,
by putting in Torester as a birth place in the census with nothing else a couple of entries popped up. There is literally 6 or 7
1861 - Ann M Mobbs reckons she was bn in Torester, Northamptonshire.
1871 - Sarah Miller says Torester, Northamptonshire.
1881 - Sarah Barnes says Torrester, Northamptonshire.
no one in 1881
1891 - William G Humphries says Gilsworth, Torester, Northamptonshire
David Lanspenry says Torester.
1901 - Bertie Says Torester, Staffordshire.
Edith M Danerfield says Far Torester, Worcestershire.
So I reckon its in Northamptonshire.
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What a clever idea! Thank you for taking the trouble to look. I've searched Free BMD for a birth record of Bertram Wilkes (varient spellings) in Northamptonshire without result though!? :-\
Shelly
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HI
Have looked at this family of Wilk* with mother Ada Esther (bn 1866 Ocker Hill) in the 1891 census but when searching for her only found her married to a James Wilkes bn 1866 her birth place was misheard and put down as Hocker Hill, close enough for me.
So no Samuel shown with her. The are both down as Boarders
James Wilks *1866 Wednesbury, Staffordshire
Ada E Wilks *1866 Hocker Hill, Staffordshire
James Occupation is Iron Worker
Wendy
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Hi
Found Abraham the eldest boy visible in the 1901 census
Here he is in the 1891 census possibly a sister to James Wilkes who Ada Ester was with in the 1901 census also
Everett JJ Kirkham bn 1870 Liverpool
Mary Ann "" bn 1870 Wednesbury
Henry "" bn 1891 Walsall
Abraham Wilkes bn 1889 Visitor bn Wigan Lancashire
Still looking for Maud, unless you have foudn them of course?
As I thought here is the marriage for Everet and Mary Ann
Kirkham, Everett James J 1888 December Marriages West Bromwich Shropshire Staffordshire Worcestershire
WILKES, Mary Ann 1888 December Marriages West Bromwich Shropshire Staffordshire Worcestershire
Wendy
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Hi Wendy. Yes, I had found the James Wilks record and I have assumed this to be the correct family. I think the enumerator record that we see on Ancestry was probably mistranscribed from the original census form that the household filled in and were later destroyed. If you look at James and Samuel written in old fashioned handwriting they do look fairly similar! Everything else ties in and so I'm going with that...rightly or wrongly!!! lol
I had also found Abraham visiting the Kirkham's but hadn't checked for a Kirkham/Wilkes marriage and I can't thank you enough for that one! Mary Ann Wilkes was Samuel's (AKA James) sister. Maud can be found in a nearby hospital as a patient, so she must have been ill and perhaps that is why Abraham was being looked after by his Aunt.
Shelly x
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Howdy,
by putting in Torester as a birth place in the census with nothing else a couple of entries popped up. There is literally 6 or 7
1861 - Ann M Mobbs reckons she was bn in Torester, Northamptonshire.
1871 - Sarah Miller says Torester, Northamptonshire.
1881 - Sarah Barnes says Torrester, Northamptonshire.
no one in 1881
1891 - William G Humphries says Gilsworth, Torester, Northamptonshire
David Lanspenry says Torester.
1901 - Bertie Says Torester, Staffordshire.
Edith M Danerfield says Far Torester, Worcestershire.
So I reckon its in Northamptonshire.
Any takers for Towcester, Northants?
(Usually pronounced as Toaster, I believe)
Pauline