RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Ann E on Thursday 20 November 08 16:00 GMT (UK)
-
Hi,
Please can someone help me identify the regiment & any info of this man
Thank you
Ann E
-
possibly a scout corporal of the Black Watch?
old rowley
-
possibly a scout corporal of the Black Watch?
old rowley
Well deffo a Cpl Scout, and of the New Army (Kitchener)...as for which Scots Regt, I'm a little thin on them!
Probably around 1915 ish
-
I'm not 100% ok with identifying Scots regiments meself Scrim I am going by the badge on the cantle of the sporran and the fact that there appears to be five tassels on the sporran itself.
OR
-
Thank you for your info,
All I know this man is what his niece told me “Walter H C White joined up on the Isle of Wight because he liked the kilt“ I am hoping to find his medals card, but with the name White and no army number I think it is difficult, so any info might point me in the right direction.
Thank you Ann E
-
Please can any one tell me anything about the badges on Walters arm just above his stripes.
I have looked but cant find any medal card for him under Black Watch, can any one offer any suggestions.
Thank you.
Ann E
-
Its a fleur de lys "Scout" badge i asked a similar question on the GWF heres the thread
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107898&hl=scout
Ady
-
Thank you for that Ady, that is interesting.
Ann E
-
Hi Ann
Your soldier appears to be Black Watch to me. Do you think he could have used another initial or first name! There are MICs for H White and a William White.
Anne
-
Hi Ann
Your soldier appears to be Black Watch to me. Do you think he could have used another initial or first name! There are MICs for H White and a William White.
Anne
Wondered when you would find this one!!
Not like you to miss a kilt! :P ;D
-
Thank you Atom & Scrimnet for your advise, I have had another look I didn’t find any Black watch!
He was known as uncle Walt, I don’t know if he used another name in the army I wasn’t around back then. :)
Do you know what the button on his arm is ?
Thank you all.
Ann E
-
Could be a smudged divisional sign....
-
8th bn The Black Watch were part of 9th (Scottish) Division and had a small thistle in a circle on their arm in that place and about that size...
They were raised in Perth if that is of any use to you? They crossed the Channel into France on 8th May 1915.
They trained at Salisbury and Borden...not too far from the Isle of Wight!
-
Actually...I don't think he is wearing a doublet...I think that is a normal jacket with the ends folded in and back...
I may even venture that the date is a little later, maybe 1917...
-
The other option is 9th bn Black Watch, who were part of 15 Div...They had a small red triangle within a black circle..."O" being the 15th letter of the alphabet!
I will plump for he 8th bn though I think, looking at other pics of the Div badge...
-
Thank you very much,For your additional info,
I have found a note of info on the back of the original photo
" of partoon/parloon 55 Nethgate Dundea & Murry St, Montrose"
no date I don’t know if there is a clue there.
Ann E
-
Thank you Atom & Scrimnet for your advise, I have had another look I didn’t find any Black watch!
He was known as uncle Walt, I don’t know if he used another name in the army I wasn’t around back then. :)
Do you know what the button on his arm is ?
Thank you all.
Ann E
Ann
Do you have any other information that might help, ie, where he was from, and, do you know if he survived the war or not? Any other details such as a regimental number would also be a great aid.
Anne
Scrim
Hardly ever on here now ... but not long back from Flanders. We were there for the 90th anniversary of the ending of the Great War.
-
Hi again Anne
Found your soldier, he was originally a Special Reservist, Black Watch. He served in France and Salonika with the 10th Battalion and reached the rank of CSM.
Walter survived the war, here's his MIC:
-
Thank you Anne,
Walter bap 18.9.1892 Carisbrook IOW, married Dorothy Brittan, 1915 Farnham, From Free BMD.
He survived the war & lived Eastbourne in the 1930s; I have found children in Free BMD that could be his.
Your new message has just come up.
Thank you so much for finding his MIC: well done, that was very kind of you, I am so pleased.
AnnE
-
Hi Ann:)
It is good to know some of Walter's background and that he went on to have a family. Here's a photo of the 10th Battalion, The Black Watch, on the march in Salonika.
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
-
Perhaps harribobs will appear with a pic of the 66th Div sign... ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Walter was a Company Sergeant Major by 1918, so the photo is not from then. ::)
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Walter was a Company Sergeant Major by 1918, so the photo is not from then. ::)
He was by the time he was discharged!!! :P :P :P :P
In 1919...
;D ;D
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Walter was a Company Sergeant Major by 1918, so the photo is not from then. ::)
He was by the time he was discharged!!! :P :P :P :P
In 1919...
;D ;D
He was also a CSM in 1918. The photo shows him as a Corporal, and a well turned out soldier, presumably an instructor with the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion. Their job was to provide recruits for not only the 1st and 2nd Battalions (Regulars) but also the Service Battalions.
-
If you look at the MIC, all of the red stuff is done in the same hand, and I would say at the same time...The WO2 bit has been added as an addenda...At a later date....
The z reserve remark was done at the same time and in the same hand when he was a Sgt...
I would opine he was promoted just before discharge... ;)
People did skip ranks, Cpl to Sgt is no leap, and to give him the rank of WO2 from Sgt at that time is not either...
Here are some KOSBs from 9th Div...See how the Div badge is similar if not the same to this chap...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l102/scrimnet/kosb.jpg)
Are we sure we have the right MIC?? ;) ;D
-
Yep ...
Right MIC, and very few men named Walter in the Black Watch ..... :-*
-
I don't know what the quality will be like, but here is 66 Div. badge.
-
Ooh this is getting interesting!!
Learned discourse!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Personally I blame Adolf...If it wasn't for him we could see everybody's documents! >:( >:( >:(
Then all our answers would be easy! 8)
-
What I was getting at is that as you look down the line of KOSBs, the thistle device turns into something very like the button thing above the bn scout badge...
-
Hi,
The soldier in the photograph is not 9th Division. The size of the photograph would make the metal thistle emblem - which was worn in 1918 and not before - clear. The thing on his arm looks like a button. In the photograph, the soldier is wearing brogues and a Glengarry - rarely worn after 1915.
Also, by 1918 I would expect to see overseas chevrons and a 1914/15 ribbon - if he's been abroad.
1916 - 9th Div wore arcs, pre 1916 Regimental tartan.
15 Division - Coy insignia only for infantry - wedge and circle worn by ancillaries, not the infantry.
Aye
Tom McC
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Not part of part of 66th Divison until 1918:
-
Hi :)
To verify:
10th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Perth on 13 September 1914 as part of K3 and attached to 77th Brigade in 26th Division.
Moved to Salisbury Plain, Bristol, Sutton Veny.
Landed at Boulogne 20 September 1915.
Moved to Salonika in November 1915.
July 1918 : left the Division and moved to France.
21 July 1918 : attached to 197th Brigade in 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division.
15 October 1918 : disbanded in France.
-
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Not part of part of 66th Divison until 1918:
That's what I said didn't I??? ::) ;D
-
Hi :)
To verify:
10th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Perth on 13 September 1914 as part of K3 and attached to 77th Brigade in 26th Division.
Moved to Salisbury Plain, Bristol, Sutton Veny.
Landed at Boulogne 20 September 1915.
Moved to Salonika in November 1915.
July 1918 : left the Division and moved to France.
21 July 1918 : attached to 197th Brigade in 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division.
15 October 1918 : disbanded in France.
(In the voice of Andy Pipkin from Little Britain) Yeah...I know....
-
No! here's what you put Scrim
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Reading that you'd assume 10th Divison were in 66th Division long before 1918.
-
Hi,
The soldier in the photograph is not 9th Division. The size of the photograph would make the metal thistle emblem - which was worn in 1918 and not before - clear. The thing on his arm looks like a button. In the photograph, the soldier is wearing brogues and a Glengarry - rarely worn after 1915.
Also, by 1918 I would expect to see overseas chevrons and a 1914/15 ribbon - if he's been abroad.
1916 - 9th Div wore arcs, pre 1916 Regimental tartan.
15 Division - Coy insignia only for infantry - wedge and circle worn by ancillaries, not the infantry.
Aye
Tom McC
Thanks for that matey.... ;D
I had probs with 18th Div the other week...The ATN was not worn by the Inf...all sorts were worn, and this will hopefully be seen in a nice pic soon!
I did think about the chevrons, but errd towards a later date...The pic of the KOSBs has them I know and is dated 1918...
I am just a bit perplexed by the "button" thing....Could it have been "censored" to a splodge?
I do admit I am not the Guru of the Kilt that is Atom12, but I do like to look at all alternatives...Just in case! ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
No! here's what you put Scrim
10th Black Watch were transferred to 66 Div, and were returned to the Western Front in July 1918...Could be a pic from then...Hence the lack of 26th Div tribal distinctions....
Reading that you'd assume 10th Divison were in 66th Division long before 1918.
Dooooh!!!
All for the want of a comma! :o :o :o :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
As I read my post...They were transferred to 66th Div and returned to the Western Front...
I suppose I could have said "returned to the Western Front and transferred to 66th Div" but normally when one receives orders they tell you where to go and to whom one will be attached...Ergo transferred and then moved...But this is semantics! :P :P :P ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Ha Ha Ha 8)
What are ye like! :-*
The kilt is my delight :P
-
Thank you all so much all for your input, until I posted the photo, all I knew was he was a corporal in a Scottish regiment; this has been very interesting & informative.
They say you learn something every day.
I take it his records are in the burnt records? Or are they in Scotland if they survive?
Thank again you have made my day.
Ann E
-
Ann
His records could be amongst the burnt records, or they might even have been destroyed in the WW2 bombings. I'm not sure if they have completed the 'W's' at Ancestry/National archives.
Here is some excerpts of your soldier’s Great War history:
The book called ‘The History of The Black Watch in the Great War, volume three, New Army’, gives the history of the 10th Black Watch. Walter served with the 10th Battalion from its arrival in France until it was disbanded in September, 1918. As his MIC shows his rank was ‘Sergeant’, on entry into France, thus the photo of him as a Corporal must have been taken sometime before his entry into France.
He started off in the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, The Black Watch, stationed in Perth. And, one can only presume, that on the formation of the 10th Battalion, or soon after, Walter was posted to them. The 10th Battalion was formed at the beginning of September 1914. By 20th September some 400 men were sent to Shrewton in Wiltshire, where the 10th would form part of the 77th Infantry Brigade alongwith the 12th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, 11th Scottish Rifles & 8th Royal Scots Fusiliers. The Brigade pitched camp in a low-lying meadow near Codford St. Mary. In November, the 10th Battalion moved to Bristol. The book (quoted above) written by General Wauchope states: “The citizens of Bristol vied with each other in hospitality to both officers and men...” In March 1915, the Brigade was ordered to camp at Sutton Veny, near Warminster, Wiltshire, and were soon engaged in field exercises. Similar camps extended ... and for the first time the whole of the 26th Division was concentrated, making it possible to carry out Divisional exercises.
The 10th Battalion sailed from Folkestone to Boulogne on 20th September, 1915, arriving near midnight ... and so began their time in France. They were held in reserve at the Battle of Loos (25th September, 1915); thereafter they played their part in trench warfare until their move to Salonika, commencing 10th November 1915 ... returning to France via Italy in July, 1918.
On disbandment, the companies and various individuals of the 10th were sent to other battalions of the regiment. On 29th September 1918, CSM White (among others) received orders to join the 14th Battalion, The Black Watch, who had taken part in a number of actions since their return to France from Egypt in April 1915.
The first three companies of the 10th Battalion left camp at Abancourt on 1st October 1918 to join their respective battalions among them was ‘C’ Company Sergeant-Major White. On 15th October, the disbandment of the 10th Battalion was reported to the 197th Brigade.
14th Battalion: On 2nd October 1918 it moved to Locon, then to Herlies on the 4th October for 10 days; then into the front line at Ligny, relieving the 12th Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry (SLI). October 15th – a slight advance was made east of Ligny and the following day had pushed forward to the outskirts of Haubordin (suburb of Lille). On 17 October, “the crossing of the Haute Deule canal was secured and the 74th Division again advanced, the 14th Battalion moving to Petit Ronchin, then the next day to Ascq (on the Lille-Tournai road), eventually reaching Marquin on the 21st”.
At this time the Division was advancing on a one-battalion front, and on the 22nd, the 14th battalion took over the outpost line in front of Orcq from the 12th SLI. By this time the enemy resistance was stiffening, their trenches being well-wired and strongly manned. The advance continued ... Tournai was evacuated by the Germans on 9th November when the 231st Brigade passed through it and formed a bridgehead east of the town, with the 55th Division on its right, and the 57th on its left, the 230th occupying the town, whilst the 229th moved forward to Lamian.
The next day, the 14th Battalion, “with the remainder of the 229th Brigade, marched through Tournai, where it had a tremendous reception, the skirl of the pipes and the sight of the kilted soldiers moving the population to great enthusiasm” .... The advance eastward was continued on the 11th (Nov), and the 14th Battalion had reached the main road just west of Frasnes, when at 10.40 am, the Brigade Major brought the news that an Armistice had been signed and would come into force at 11 am ... (and still their movements continue) .... On December 16th demobilisation commenced throughout the winter of 1918 and into the following Spring. In March 1919, 100 men were sent to the 8th Battalion, and half a dozen officers to the 6th, then in the Army of the Rhine .... (the history continues ....)
However, Walter’s MIC bears testimony that he was demobilised (disembodied) on 20th January, 1919.
Thank you Ann for bringing to our attention one of the lesser known battalions of The Black Watch, Royal Highland Regiment, (The Gallant Forty Twa).
Regards
Anne
-
Hi Ann,
Thank you very much, that is brilliant, it is fantastic to have some back ground history.
It goes to show if you don’t know ask on Roots web.
Ann E
-
Hi,
Having looked at the button-like object again; is it not a Bomber's badge? Light-coloured grenade (the circular bit) surmounted by a darker flame?
Anne E: A bomber was a soldier qualified in grenade throwing.
Stick looks a bit big to be a walking out one. Looks more like the type carried by platoon Sergeants etc.
It is recorded that the 10th Black Watch used a fair few instructors from the Depot (3rd Battalion The Black Watch), many of which would be Special Reserve men. Special Reserve men's Regimental numbers (3rd Bn Black Watch) begin with a '3/' prefix.
Hope this is of use.
Aye
Tom McC
-
I think I'll give up on the Scots stuff..... :-[
BTW
I didn't see the grenade flame (still can't!)...I do know I am due an eye test though...
-
Anne, The History of The Black Watch movements fit in nicely with the marriage I found in Free BMD March ¼ 1915 (in the Farnham district ),do you know if troops were given leave before going overseas?
Thank you.
Ann E
-
Thank you Tom, I am learning a lot. :)
Ann E
-
Anne, The History of The Black Watch movements fit in nicely with the marriage I found in Free BMD March ¼ 1915 (in the Farnham district ),do you know if troops were given leave before going overseas?
Thank you.
Ann E
Hi Ann
The book mentions that: "New Year arrived (1915), and was celebrated by a Brigade inspection and march past on one of the wettest days of the whole winter. Shortly afterwards four days leave with free pases to Scotland was granted to all ranks, a concession which was greatly appreciated."
This might fit in with your '1st Quarter' of the year which presumably runs from beginning of January to the end of March. Not unless he was given leave to go and get married, or they had some weekends off. But, it says the men had little time off from arduous training, "officers and men had little leisure except on Sundays."
The only other leave mentioned was in August: "officers and men were sent to their homes on three days "farewell leave", and early in September it became clear that the 10th would soon be sent to France."
Anne :)
-
Hi Anne
Thank you for the additional info,” four days leave” appears to fit in well, I will look into this.
Ann E