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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: velly on Monday 17 November 08 11:59 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am looking for my g-g-gdfthr Robert Duncan. His marriage record puts his birth year at about 1843 and his parents as Thomas Duncan (blacksmith) and Ann Munroe. I have searched FamilySearch and there was a record for Robert Duncan - born in 1840 Leven, Scoonie, Fife, Scotland. Parents Thomas Duncan and Ann Munro. In the message section of the record it states "Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. No additional information is available. Ancestral file may list the same family and the submitter."I'm thinking that although there is a discrepancy with the date, this has to be him. I then went onto Scotland's People to see if I could order the record. And they have no record of this birth.
There was also a birth date and place for Thomas Duncan (1812 Strathmiglo, Fife, Scotland) and a marriage date and place for Thomas Duncan and Ann Munro (20 Jul 1834, Kinross, Kinross, Scotland). Again, I couldn't find either of these on Scotland's People. There was also the same message in the record.
I am quite new to this and was wondering if this is common? I think that the FamilySearch info is almost certainly my Robert Duncan. Can anyone give me any clues to how I establish this further and get copies of the records?
Thanks for any help. :)
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The 1834 marriage/banns of Thomas Duncan and a Munro in Kinross,Kinross is on S.P. No credits to check it, but I think it's yours.
However I don't see a birth for Robert to these parents as yet.
Do you see, though, that the birth iof Robert is only approximated to 1840, no month or date, so I suspect the info has come from M.I's or census etc.
Not all children were entered into Parish Records for a variety of reasons, also possible that the births/christenings were not well kept. i.e. the minister/clerk forgot to enter them.
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Hi Velly
This looks to be Robert's 1851 entry with Thomas father maybe widowed by now (?):
Thomas Duncan 39, blacksmith, b. Strathmiglo, Fife
Jean Duncan 15, b. Kinross, Kinross
David Duncan 13, b. Perth, Perth
Robert Duncan 11, Scoonie, Perth
Maryann Duncan 7, b. Kinonl, Perth
Thomas Duncan 5, b. Kinross, Kinross
Address: Mouse Wynd, Cupar, Fife
As you can see from the children's birth places, the family seem to have moved around and may explain why some of the children's births appear on the OPRs and some do not:
From IGI, actual extract from the OPRs:
1. JEAN MCRITCHIE DUNCAN Birth: 08 APR 1835/ Christening: 31 MAY 1835 Kinross, Kinross, Scotland
2. THOMAS DUNCAN Birth: 30 MAR 1846/ Christening: 12 APR 1846 Kinross, Kinross, Scotland
And the member submitted entries (probably taken from a census entry:
1. David Duncan Birth: 1838 Perth, Perth, Scotland
2. Robert Duncan Birth: 1840 Leven, Scoonie, Fife, Scotland
3. Mary Ann Duncan Birth: 1844 Kinnoul, Perth, Scotland
As Tootsiepie said, the marriage/banns for Thomas and mother Ann show on 20 JUL 1834 in Kinross, Kinross, actual extract from the OPRs. The entry is showing on SP, just watch the spelling of mother Ann's name as it is registered as ANNE. SP is very particular on spelling ::) so when searching for Ann, worthwhile always searching as Ann*.
Monica :)
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Given the middle name of what looks like first born daughter to Thomas and Ann, this might be a possibility for Ann's birth details:
ANN MONRO Birth: 04 JUL 1801/Christening:05 JUL 1801 Kinross, Kinross
Parents:ROBT. MONRO and JEAN MCRITCHIE
Monica
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Thank you so much for your help. That is really great. I'll go back to SP now with the knowledge that it's a very specific speller!!
So if there is no OPR for a birth and we have Robert Duncan from census records - is this the best we can hope to establish his birth?
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Velly, the honest answer re Robert's birth entry is...I don't know :P Certainly the only births showing for siblings are those born in Kinross, nothing on the births from Perth on the OPRs at Scotlands People.
One thing on Robert's birth place, he shows as Scoonie in Perth. Have a look at this old post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,151856.0.html, reply No. 8 for clarification on the place name.
Monica :)
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Thank you Monica. The info on Scoonie was very worthwhile. It's hard to get your head around the places etc. I think I will try and find Robert Duncan's death cert. for Australia. Family lore says that he wore a kilt every day of his life! Sounds like an interesting character...
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Hi Monica,
Can I just get your opinion on one other thing?? As you say, given Thomas and Ann's first born daughter's name, the record for Ann Monro in 1801 looks very promising. Would it be unusual for her to be 10 or 11 years the senior of her husband? And should I be able to find a death/burial record for her prior to 1851 census?
Thanks so much :)
Velly
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It's hard being definitive isn't it when you are simply putting together information. Certainly it would seem that Ann appears to be older than Thomas. In respect of was it unusual, probably no more than today. It did occur to me that perhaps the birth entry we have for Ann may have been for an older sister who died and then the name was reused (common practice in those times for important family first names) but looking at the other children showing for parents, can't see a birth for a second Ann:
1. MARY MONRO Christening: 03 AUG 1794 Kinross, Kinross
2. HECTOR MONRO Christening: 09 JUL 1797 Kinross, Kinross
3. JAMES MONRO Christening: 14 JUL 1799 Kinross, Kinross
4. ANN MONRO Christening: 05 JUL 1801 Kinross, Kinross
5. ROBERT MONRO Christening: 31 MAR 1805 Kinross, Kinross
6. CHRISTIAN MONRO Christening: 04 DEC 1808 Kinross, Kinross
7. MARGARET MUNRO Christening: 21 APR 1811 Kinross, Kinross
You may be able to find an Old Parish Register death entry for her. You would have to check what is available for both Kinross and Cupar, Fife going by the movements of the family between 1846-51. There may also be MIs (monumental inscriptions) that could be checked. Bear in mind though that this is all pre official registration, and if there is an OPR entry for her death there is likely to be minimal info (no parents info for example as there would be on death certs. post 1855).
Monica
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This looks to be the family's 1841 census entry. This census is the most limited in terms of info. Ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years for everyone over 15 and no relationships within the household are shown:
Thomas Duncan 30, smith, b. Scotland
Ann Duncan 30, b. Scotland
Jane Duncan 6, b. Scotland
David Duncan 4, b. born in the County
Robert Duncan 13, b. born in the County
John Duncan 11, b. born in the County
Address:Lethenday Old, Scone Perthshire
This entry comes from a trascript which is not always accurate in terms of transcription ::) I don't know for example whether the last two, Robert and John, are actually that age or the age is showing in error. For example, Robert should show in 1841, aged c. 1. John may also be one of their children with age mis-transcribed or a relative. If you look at the original it will hopefully be clearer.
Ann's age above looks light (anywhere from 1807-11). However, the 1841 census is the most unreliable in terms of age and you need really a couple of censuses, if you are going by these alone, to get a better feel for someones age.
The good thing is that Thomas father is showing in the 1861 census, which means that his death cert, if he died in Scotland, should be available to view on Scotlands People, and will confirm his parents' details. This is his 1861 entry:
Thomas Duncan 49, blacksmith, b. Strathmiglo, Fifeshire
Margaret Duncan 17, weaver, b. Scone, Perthshire *
Thomas Duncan 15, shoemaker, b. Kinross
Address: Riggs Row, Cupar Fife
*I think this may the Maryann that showed in 1851, again hard to say what is actually her name without looking at the original images.
Monica :)
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I also did some digging around on SP and have used your suggestion of Ann's birth details to launch a new trail. Ann's (apparent) parents - Robert Monro and Jean McRitchie as per her birth record in 1801 - have two marriage records (OPRs). I looked at the actual records and downloaded them. They are a bit confusing... see what you think...
1. One is listed as "17/06/1791 Monro, Robert (O.P.R. Marriages 432/0020 0359 Inverkeithing) Their entry is on May 20th and says "Robert Monro in the parish of Kinross and Jean Macritchie in this parish gave in their names, thrice proclaimed, married 17th June."
2. This one listed as "05/06/1791 Monro, Robert (O.P.R. Marriages 462/0010 0215 Kinross). Their entry is on a page entitled "1791" and says (in v. tricky to read and faded writing...) "Robert Monro in this and Jean McRitchie in Inverkeithing parish 5 June (and then a little something at the end I can't read)"
.... I've just been alerted to your next post.... I hadn't found Thomas on the 1841 census but did find the entry for 1861. I also made the connection about the death certificate but haven't been able to find one. And yes, I think that Margaret the weaver is Maryann the 7 year old in 1851. I will look for the original of the 1841 census and see if it is clearer.
Do you also think that given Robert shows up (age appropriately) in the 1851 census) that we can assume he emigrated to Australia somewhere between then and the 1861 census? (He got married in Beechworth, Victoria in 1864.)
Obviously there is a difference in the spelling of Jean's surname. But the second appears to refer to the first. Is it the banns and then the marriage?? ???
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Ah-hah!! I just looked at the actual record on SP and Robert's age is actually 1 1/2 (i.e. 1.5 yrs). So, Bingo! It also says that of the four children only David and Robert were born 'in county' and both John and Jane were not. Maybe John is a relative as his age would pre-date their marriage in 1834? And perhaps the 'Jane' is actually Jean but incorrect name?
Will go and do a double check on Thomas death cert...
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In respect of the two entries you have for the marriage, I would say it is certainly the banns and marriage. The one dated 17 June would look to be the marriage itself although I wonder what the reference to the marriage is that shows on IGI for 20 JUL 1834 in Kinross?
In respect of Jane/Jean, they are one and the same. On of the joys of research in Scotland is how interchangeable some names were, see www.whatsinaname.net - never mind how variable spellings were at the time... ;)
Monica
Completely daft answer :P The dates you referred to were for Ann's parents not Ann and Thomas. But the main point being that the entry on 17 June would appear to be the marriage. Given the naming of parishes, banns look to have been read in both Inverkeithing (probably where Jane came from) and Kinross (for father Robert).
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Can't easily see Robert in the 1861 census index, so he may well have left Scotland by this time.
Monica
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Can't easily see any entries for father Thomas post 1861, going by occupation and birth place :-\ Could he have joined son in Australia?
Monica
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This looks a possibility for Ann's father's birth, going by the names of Robert Munro and Jane McRitchie's children:
ROBERT MONRO Birth: 06 JAN 1770/Christening:14 JAN 1770Kinross, Kinross
Parents:HECTOR MONRO and MARY BARCLAY
Monica
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Thanks so much Monica. I'm v. happy with the discoveries we've made. Couldn't have done it without you. And importantly, I've learned things I can apply on other trails. ;D
I will now start to look for Robert and Thomas leaving Scotland and coming to Australia. I would have thought Thomas may be a little long in the tooth ;) to be starting out for Australia but children can be mighty persuasive when they want something!
I'll let you know if I discover anything more... thanks again :)
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I have a Jane/Jean Duncan born c 1834/35 , I have no known siblings or parents yet. I have been led to believe Banff or perhaps Aberdeen was where her parents came from. This Jane/Jean probably didnt marry but she did have a daughter ,Margaret 1856. Margaret married a John Mcgough ,one of their children assumed Margarets maiden in adulthood and hence my line as Duncan was re routed from Mcgough or Mcgoff. I dont suppose this will be of any use to you ,but you never know. I cannot seem to get anything on Jane/Jean.
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Velly
We have a common link through Robert Duncan. Interested if you resolved his ancestry?
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Hello - I've not gone any further with this… Life got in the way! Would be interested to hear where you are at and your link to Robert Duncan.
Thanks so much.
Velly
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Velly
My great grandfather was Albert Duncan, born 19 July 1877, Collingwood Victoria Australia, son of Robert Duncan. Albert moved to Perth Western Australia, but I haven't quite worked out what happened to Robert (He seems to have been alive when Albert married in 1904 - but his wife is listed as a widow in the 1911 electoral rolls).
North Perth electoral roles 1/9/1911 show’
o Albert Duncan 382 Bulwer St Nth Perth storeman , married.
o Elizabeth Duncan 384 Bulwer St Perth, spinster
o Georgina Duncan 382 Bulwer St Perth, married (to Albert)
o Mary Anne Duncan, 384 Bulwer St Perth, widow
o Rose Duncan 384 Bulwer St Perth, spinster
The Duncan’s were in Perth by 1904, however were still in Victoria when Rose was born 1882.
Date of coming to Australia is prior to 1869 when Georgina (Duncan not Bristow) was born.
His wife Mary Ann (nee Hoban) died in Perth Western Australia on 13 September 1928, Her death certificate showed that she was born in Victoria and had lived in Western Australia for 20 years. (Family story says though she came from Cork Ireland and Albert's birth record shows her place of birth as Kilkenny Ireland.) Her death notices can be found online by searching 'Trove" for West Australian Newspapers - “At her residence 384 Bulwer Street Perth. Mother of Elizabeth, Mary Washing, Florence Gordon, Rose and Albert of Perth; Robert of Mt Barker; Georgina Dalgeish, Amy Graham of Melbourne."
The family story is that Robert Duncan was a tailor by trade- but only made and mended for the bishops and priests. He lived in the back of an old house in Aberdeen Street Perth Western Australia and the Afghan Camel Drivers of the day lived at the front. When relatives visited relations in Scotland many years ago they reported that the Duncan's were part of the Gordon Clan.
I have started putting bits that I have onto wiki-tree and you can see what I have through searching Duncan-5285 which links to Robert.
Albert married Georgina Bristow, my great grandmother who was born on 23 April 1881 in Aberdeen Scotland. She met Albert through Rose Duncan who was her friend. It took quite a bit to find Georgina as she ended up in the House of Bethany (orphanage) in Aberdeen and then came to Australia on SS Surrey a 'bride-ship' in 1901 and they divorced on his return from the war. Her marriage certificate also had erroneously recorded her mother as Margaret Taylor-rather than Catherine Taylor. I found that on some of the ancestry sites most people have inferred that a Yorkshire born, Georgina is Albert's wife; but my family stories and the documentation I have shows she clearly came from Scotland (with her father from Buckinghamshire England).
To summarise the Robert Duncan family:
Robert and Mary Ann DUNCAN had eight known children. (Not sure about Jennie whose name pops up but may be a nickname.
• Albert born c 1877 (Reg1877/17089) in Melbourne Victoria died 5/12/1938 Perth.
• Rose born 1882 Collingwood Victoria (Reg No.1882/ 08325) , died 2/2/1965 without children unmarried. Rose is buried with sister Elizabeth and mother Mary Anne in Anglican section RA132 Karrakatta Cemetery. Rose brought up Albert’s children.
• Robert, born c. 1867, died 9/4/1941 in Mt Barker Western Australia. No known children or marriages. Robert is buried with his brother Albert in Karrakatta Cemetery Anglican LB154. Cemetery records say 58 years old at time of death. The story is he couldn't marry the woman he loved because her brother had been hanged.
• Mary born 1878, died 7 October 1935 in Perth Western Australia, Married name Peter WASHING. Family story says she married a Chinese man WA SINGH shortened to above. Was member of Chung Wah Assn. Mary was mentioned deceased in death notices for Albert in 5/12/1938. There are a fair few articles on the Washing family on TROVE
• Amy (Emma) born 1875 Melbourne Victoria (Reg 1875/17803), died 13 February 1932 in Victoria. Amy was mentioned deceased in death notices for Albert in 5/12/1938. married surname GRAHAM.
• Florence born Collingwood Melbourne 1880 (Reg 1880/1645), died ??? (1928 - after 1938) in Perth?, married surname GORDON. (Lived Mt Lawley Western Australia in 1938)
• Elizabeth Mary born 1871(Reg 1871/4025) in Melbourne, died 22/04/1959 in Perth WA, possibly unmarried. Buried in grave with Mary Ann (mother) and sister Rose.
• Georgina born Butterworth Victoria 1869 (Reg 1869/818), died ? Melbourne, married surname DALGEISH. Interestingly Georgina does not show in Albert Duncan's death notices 5/12/38 although other deceased sisters do.
Be interested where you fit the picture Velly.
All the best
Pete