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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jcjeffe on Saturday 15 November 08 13:11 GMT (UK)
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I have known since the 1980s that my Grandfather was in the Royal Engineers in WWI and was kept in France until 1919 repairing bridges. I have just downloaded his service record from Ancestry which has his Recruitment in Bristol 1916, Mobilisation to France with the BEF in 1917 and his Demobilisation tin 1919.
As a stonemason it seemed logical for him to be a Sapper in the Royal Engineers but I was surprised that he is in the "Inland Water Transport Corps". There is only a short paragraph on the unit on the Royal Engineers Museum Web site mentioning transport on French canals and seagoing barges across the channel. They must have been using his stonemason skills because shortly after mobilisation he had a pay rise from 1s 8d to 2/- because he was a "Very superior stonemason".
Does anyone have more details of this unit.
Chris Jefferies
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By the time he was a member of the RE the IWT had developed beyonf the original remit of ferrying goods, to vitually the entire transport network. So his work could have involved anything from canal banks, to bridges and docks.
K
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Thanks, there is so little published about the unit. The "Long Long Trail" web site looked interesting with an IWT page but that just said " I am sorry. I haven't written this page yet!".
As there is nothing in my garandfather's war record about his service in France, does it mean that the only way to get some idea what he did is to hope he is mentioned in the units "diary"?
Chris
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Hi Chris and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
Can you tell us where he was in WW1 ? ( there was a unit in Mesopotamia as well as France ! ) does it say on his records ? any chance you can tell us his name ?
Annie :)
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His Name Herbert Josiah Jefferies Born 1881 No 222770 WR504429
The only info on his Service Record on Ancestry is:-
Short Service form - Campaigns BEF France 25/2/17
Another
Short Service form - Campaigns BEF France 25/2/17 to 25/4/19
On "Statement of Service" sheet there are entries about pay then pay rise which have under Corps:-
IWT.RE PRU Q13 or O13 - Joined F?? in England 28/2/17
IWT.RE PRU Q32 or O32 - Raised to Very Superior 25/4/17
IWT ?? Q13 or O13 - Joined from England 25/4/17
Next Entry Stamp - Transfered to Reserve 24/5/19
Chris Jefferies
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Hi,
I've just found out this week that my grandfather was in the Inland Water Transport and that he was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal whilst in Mesopotamia. I've found his medal card on Ancestry but unfortunately not his service record. I would love to find out more about this. His name was Lionel Walter Long, his regimental number WR/552128 and he was a Sapper (Acting Sergeant Major). Although the medal card says gazetted on 22/09/1919 I cannot find this in the London Gazette. The card also says "registered paper 68/GenNo/3451. Can anyone advise where to go from here please.
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His LG entry
WR/552128 Spr. (A./Coy./S.M.) Long,L. W., I.W.T. (Newport, Men.).
http://beta.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=31562&geotype=London&gpn=11775
A
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Absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much. All I've got to do now is to find out why he was given it.
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If he was still serving in 1921 his papers will be with the MOD, and you will have to apply to them.
Ken
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Thanks - I'll have to try and find out when he was demobbed.
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Since posting before I've discovered by my grandfather was awarded his medal on 29.12.1918. I note from the book "Inland Water Transport in Mesopotamia" that 12 other people were awarded the medal on the same day. Unfortunately that is the only mention in the book of my grandfather and also it does not mention any action on that date. I wonder if anyone knows what happened.
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I am interested in the RE Inland Water Transport section after noticing that there is a Sapper from the IWT buried in a local churchyard.
I presume he was working on the Caledonian Canal which is nearby but wondering whether they were involved in transport of general supplies and munitions through the canal or whether they were supporting the US Navy detachment there. Also interested after contacted by someone researching their father who was in the Army Service Corps here but we don't know where they were.
I notice that the Royal Engineers Association have a DVD with the history of the RE on it (text, not a video). I have EMailed them about how to get a copy but not had a reply yet.
MB
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I am interested in the RE Inland Water Transport section after noticing that there is a Sapper from the IWT buried in a local churchyard.
Hi Martin
Can you post his name and other info? We may be able to fill in some details.
Glen
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Name: GAFFNEY
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Sapper
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers
Unit Text: Inland Waterways and Docks
Date of Death: 09/10/1918
Service No: WR/319432
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Extn. B. 77.
Cemetery: KILMALLIE OLD CHURCHYARD
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John Gaffney was born in Manchester, enlisted in Dublin while residing in Rathmines, Co Dublin.
Will look for a medal card etc.
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Hi Martin
I found a medal card but is blank meaning he was awarded no medals at all so never went overseas. Looks like your theory is correct about working on the Canal etc.
Glen
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From my collection of 2,500 photo's and research into family military memorials in Pembrokeshire 1722 to 2004, I am interested to learn more of the service record of a gentleman who is commemorated in the county, one Captain Arthur Lloyd Grote died 09th July 1918 in Iraq and buried at Basra Cemetery I.L. 17 Inland Waterways Transport.
He was the son of George Whitcombe Grote M.D. born in Canada and his wife Mary born in West Bromwich.
Arthur in his early life lived at Brunswick Street Newcastle Under Lyme with the family. Arthur mrd Nina Patricia Rossiter in 1902 in the Pembroke Reg District.
Whilst I have found Nina as Kina Rossiter in 1891 I have not yet discovered her in earlier census.
Tks in advance
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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There is a book that might give you some background information.
INLAND WATER TRANSPORT IN MESOPOTAMIA (http://www.naval-military-press.com/inland-water-transport-in-mesopotamia.html)
An apparently obscure sidebar to the Great War that has suddenly acquired topical resonance is the struggle against the Turkish Ottoman forces in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq). Then, even more than today, control of the country depended on keeping the twin great rivers of the Tigris and Euphrates open. This book narrates the work undertaken by the officers and men of the Inland Water Transport (IWT) assigned to deliver supplies to the large British army in Mesopotamia by water. So successful were they that, by the end of the war, the river system, backed up by railways, was taking nearly 3,000 tons a day in a fleet of 2,000 craft up to 500 miles upriver from the port of Basra - then as now the main British base in the region. As a result of this miracle of organisation, the enemy was driven from Kut to Baghdad to Mosul. If only it was like that today! Illustrated with maps, sketches and photos and seven appendices on the IWT's work.
MB
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There is a book that might give you some background information.
INLAND WATER TRANSPORT IN MESOPOTAMIA (http://www.naval-military-press.com/inland-water-transport-in-mesopotamia.html)
Thanks for that, yet another book to add to my database of material awaiting consultation and reading.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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There is a book that might give you some background information.
INLAND WATER TRANSPORT IN MESOPOTAMIA (http://www.naval-military-press.com/inland-water-transport-in-mesopotamia.html)
Thanks for that, yet another book to add to my database of material awaiting consultation and reading.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
I am sure when I first looked around for information that either the Royal Engineers Museum or Association was planning a CD of back copies of a RE journal. I EMailed for information and never got a reply, just looked on the websites and can't find any mention of it now.
MB
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Nina is in the 1881 census as MINA
RG11/5408 Folio 20 Page 7
In Carew with rest of the family
MB
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There is a service record at Kew for a GROTE A L, Lieut in WO339/15385.
Phil
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Thanks for that. I knew she would be in the 81 somewhere, it just was not that important or urgent, however it just adds that little bit more to the research.
I have so much to research at Kew, now plus a bit more, looks like a London holiday is coming up.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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It's definitely him in WO 339/13585.
I've now had a chance to cross-check with WO 338 and the entry has:
Grote / Arthur LLoyd / RE (IWT) / Capt / Dead
Phil
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Hi Martin Briscoe I have sent you a pm re this subject
Regards
James
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First post bear with me.
Grandfather J Deane #133995 Enlisted Liverpool 11/1915. We have a photo taken by E & E Pickering of Petersfiels and surmise he did basic training nearby(?) He shipped out to Corfu in 1916, returned to UK. Then was then attached toi the British Mission with the King of Serbia and apparently severd in Mesopotamia Also gained Distinguished Medal from same, which was awarded in 1916, but docuiment, -the scruffiest hand writtin docuiment from any government ever- is dated 1921.
Anyone any idea of the basic camp he might have been posted to?
Also have some info on ships that carried him out & back.
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Hi Lesray Welcome to Rootschat :)
Can I ask where the number came from I cant seem to find any one of that name and number on the Medal Index Cards
Ady
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Hi, Are you mmm45 or ady? not sure how to call you.
We have his service record and that is his number
I think I may have misused the term Distinguished service, That is what is on the top of the King of Serbia's Document, but I'm now sure that would not equate to the British army medal, I think that would have became a meritorious service medal(?)
Also have a copy of a Mentioned in Dispatches signed by Winston Churchill and his original Warrant to WO11
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Hi either/or :)
On the service record page that shows postings does it have anything saying "embarked" or the likes? a lot of records ive seen has the name of the Troopship stamped on them or handwritten.
can you give his full name please I take it he was Royal Engineers originally?
Ady
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Hi mmm45
Thanks for your help & support here, I'm collating a whole bag of dates & events which might be very interesting to IWT folk. We seem to have some postcards from several theaters they were in too. I'll be back to you in a day or so
Thanks again
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Hi mmm45
I now have some facts regarding Joseph O. Deane 135995
He enlisted 2/11/1915 and was posted to Longmoor,-Wasn't that a massive place- hence the photo taken in Petersfield. Embarked Southampton,SS Archimedes 15/1/1916, deisembarked next day at "Home" no re-embarkation date, but he arriving at Brendesi 22/1/1916. No mention of that little kurfulle in Southampton? He then returned to UK 9/6/1916 from Corfu on the SS Barletta
Later he went to Mesopotamia.
Two quetsions please. Having problems tying up dates in his record with the actual Gazetted record, can't find it so far.
He was promoted several times, then returned to former Rank on rteturn. This would be due to actual role performed in the field, but not requires when "Home?
Many thanks
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Hi Joseph Octavius Deane has two numbers ...Gazetted with MSM 3rd Sept 1919
He is also wrongly trancribed as Joseph A Deane on Medal Index Card...Cpl (Acting CSM)
Yes "acting up" in the field reverted back home....still happens now!
Longmoor is still there home to RMP Close Protection School.
LG search engine is notoriously difficult to navigate...there are a couple of experts in the "black art" who may pick up on this and find him for you :)
Ady
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Hi MMM45
Thanks again, just finished watching the royal nuptials, 9.30 here
Re Casualty Form-Active service read pref. post on this but have one more question for those who might know. How would you describe the different functions of the first date column to the second? Every time I feel I've got it an example seems to contradict.
Cheers, glad the weather held for the show!
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My interpretation is that the left hand date column is the date the event is recorded. The right hand date is that of the event itself.
Phil
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Decorations & medals conferred by HM The King of Serbia:
Silver Medal:
135995 Corporal Joseph Octavius Deane, Inland Water Transport, Royal Engineers.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29977/supplements/2447
Phil
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Phil
Knew youd be able to ping him...Any luck with the MSM 1919 on MIC it states Sept 3rd 1919 LG and also 60 looking on British Medal Forum 60 Gazette is Jan 1919 to Feb 1919 cant find him anyway..its a Mespot MSM award.
Ady :)
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Ady,
I have tried, including some long and tedious searches, but can't dig it out so far.
Phil
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Found it ;D
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31210/supplements/2997
Phil
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Phil You are the LG Master!!
Great detective work ;D
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Hi & Hello Phil,
Thanks so much for that, as MMM45 said it was a great piece of work, especially his original number is not shown. That would be off the active list or simply different unit?
Anyway great stuff
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Just found my grandfathers war record on ancestry he joined Inland Water Transport - Royal Engineers 15 Apr 1919 aged 33 a bricklayer and left 19 jul 1922
no idea were he served. He died in 1962 so no one alive remembers.
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Industryarch welcome to Rootschat
If you post his name im sure youd get some info passed to you
Ady :)
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Sorry I forgot
Vaughan Pitt
looking at the file again i think he served 07 Jun 1916 to15 apr 1919
i was confused by the date on the medal card of 1922
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Hi, I have just found new info on the following person & am hoping to find out more about him.
Can you help?
NOLAN, JOHN 11.11.1917
Rank: Sapper
Service No: 150938
Date of Death: 11/11/1917
Age: 46
Regiment/Service: Royal Engineers Inland Water Transport Workshops
Grave Reference I. G. 3.
Cemetery AIRE COMMUNAL CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Harry and Agnes Nolan, of Dublin; husband of Alice Nolan, of 76, Eccles St., Dublin.
LGC
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Hi
Just found this post while doing a google search for a distant relative, and wondered if anyone could help.
Gerald Frederick Knowles, sapper with the Inland Water Transport Battalion, looks like he enlisted in New York, died 8 May 1918 "home" which I assume was England, or does it just mean "home waters"? His memorial is at Hollybrook at Southampton.
He was born in Liverpool to Frederick Harry and Eliza Florence Knowles in May 1900 and they all appear in Liverpool in the 1911 census but I can't find any records after that so I am assuming the family may have emigrated to the US, which would make sense of an enlistment in New York.
However he would only have been 18 at the time of his death if this is the correct person. I figure it is possible that he could have enlisted at such a young age, but I am just hoping I haven't mixed him up with anyone else.
Ancestry has a reference, UK, soldiers died in the Great War, and the memorial is on the international Find a Grave index, but I cannot find an English death certificate for him. Hollybrook evidently is a memorial for soldiers who were lost in vessels torpedoed in home waters but I can't find any reference to a particular event in which he may have died.
Can anyone advise please?
Thanks, Dianne
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http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1
He accidentally drowned at Richborough in Kent May 1918
http://www.open-sandwich.co.uk/town_history/richborough_port.htm
Ady
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That was quick! Thank you for that info, I was unable to find a place and cause of death. How sad to have drowned so young, but I suppose there were worse possible deaths in those times....
I am using ancestry to check for records and I could tell from their CWGC info that he didn't die in France, should have gone to the website direct. I still can't see that ancestry show a death certificate for him which seems strange. I wouldn't order one now you have given me that info but it should still show up.
It is also the ancestry record of UK soldiers died in the Great War that says he enlisted in New York and this could be a mistake. I have corrected a lot of their wrong transcriptions but this doesn't show the original record to check against.
His parents are still living in Liverpool at his death in 1918 but I haven't been able to track them beyond that.
Again many thanks for the info. I didn't know anything about the port of Richborough and the work that was done there so that has been educational.
Cheers from Canberra in Australia!
Dianne
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Maybe he was registered on marine deaths instead ? Im unsure on how to access those deaths though
He may have gone overboard on a trip to France he definately had overseas service as he has two campaign medals awarded
Ady
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Thanks again Ady
Yes I don't know how to find the record if his death counts as a death at sea.
How do you know he had overseas service and campaign medals? I checked with Forces War Records but they seem to just get their info from other sites. They suggested he may have been eligible for some medals but I think they are just adding stuff to make it look more authoritative so I don't believe them without further proof.
Dianne
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His Medal Index Card is on ancestry it gives British War and Victory medals which means he had to have served in a theatre of war not just UK.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A000915-02644/254446?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dGerald%2bfrederick%26gsln%3dKnowles%26sbo%3d0%26uidh%3dip5%26pcat%3d39%26h%3d254446%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b11%26db%3dMedalRolls%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Ady
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Thanks Ady
I had seen that document but hadn't registered the info about the medals and didn't know what it signified re overseas service anyway. I think I may have taken this as far as I can go, at least as far as asking questions on this forum. It is great to have knowledgeable people like you who are so willing to help. Thanks again. Over and out!
Di
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Hi
Wonder if anyone can help me with some information about my grandfather. I have his service record from ancestry but cannot tell if he ever left England during his service. There are various documents as part of his service record and these are the details about him and what I can make out.
John James Barbour
age 27
no: 158007
rank: sapper
attested: 10 dec 1915 old town hall, lancaster
mobilised: 28 July 1916
batt No2 ATA - posted gnr 29 July 1916
RFA 68th div - posted 7 Sep 1916
On a protection certificate and certificate of identity
John James Barbour
Regt No 307415
Rank Sapper
Unit 9 W? RE
Born 1888
Medical cat C1
Theatre - Western
first joined 28 july 1916
On another page it states
rank gnr regt no TF741345
dated 29 Aug 1917 transferred to RE
I would love to have some idea what he did and where. He was a tool trader so could understand him being in the Royal Engineers but was surprised to see him in the Inland Water Transport Section.
Thank you in anticipation for any help/information you can offer.
Linda
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Been searching through my notes and files, trying to find the name of the sapper who died at Laggan Locks (Caledonian Canal). I think he was buried in Manchester / Salford area and it was probably 1918/1919.
I will have to pop in the archive next week and look at the police record book again.
(not the same as Sapper Gaffney who died at Banavie)
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Been searching through my notes and files, trying to find the name of the sapper who died at Laggan Locks (Caledonian Canal). I think he was buried in Manchester / Salford area and it was probably 1918/1919.
I will have to pop in the archive next week and look at the police record book again.
(not the same as Sapper Gaffney who died at Banavie)
I found my notes!
Sapper Patrick MULLEN age 38 from Newcastle on Tyne died at Laggan Locks, Invergarry on 1st November 1918. The report says he was closing the bridge over the canal when he fell into the lock and was drowned. It was 7.30 pm so would have been dark, his body was found 15 minutes later. He is buried in Newcastle.
He was married with two children.
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Hello, I forgot to update the site with my new email and lost that account.... Oh well. Anyway, I am looking to find some information on my wife's great uncle (Michael Verbisky) who served with the Royal Engineers - Inland Water Transport as a sapper/corporal. He is a Canadian recruited out of Edmonton Alberta Canada. You folks were able to help me track some other info on him before and was hoping you could help again. His regimental number was W.R. 317846 He served from about 1916 - 1919 when he returned home. Thanks in advance for your support. Shane
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Hello, I forgot to update the site with my new email and lost that account.... Oh well. Anyway, I am looking to find some information on my wife's great uncle (Michael Verbisky) who served with the Royal Engineers - Inland Water Transport as a sapper/corporal. He is a Canadian recruited out of Edmonton Alberta Canada. You folks were able to help me track some other info on him before and was hoping you could help again. His regimental number was W.R. 317846 He served from about 1916 - 1919 when he returned home. Thanks in advance for your support. Shane
I don't think I found any detailed pieces on the RE IWT but there are a couple of pages on the Long, Long Trail (http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/?s=inland+waterways).
They seem to have been used to man canals and harbours in the UK because some canals operated around the clock during the war but will have lost manpower to the forces, they also manned some harbours. Also seen odd references to the working in various parts of the world.
I think I tried contacting the RE Museum about the canal but never had any response.
By the way, we have a memorial to a Canadian Sapper (https://www.flickr.com/photos/doffcocker/albums/72157632918021761)near here.
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Thanks for your help. I am starting to think his records were lost in WW2 due to the bombings. Landrover
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Hi All.
I'm looking for a relative Ernest Mark Wheeler born 1880 in Surrey, England who was a Sapper in WW1 for the Inland Water Transport - Royal Engineers. I cannot find anything about this anywhere? I am more specifically after a photo of him as I'm sure all military would have a photograph for their file? How can I get this? Cheers
Royal Engineers
Regiment Number WR/301542
Medal Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal