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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: Reiver on Tuesday 11 November 08 19:13 GMT (UK)
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My direct relative William Penman was son of Michael Penman and Mary Bauchop (various spellings :)). An IGI extracted baptism shows him to have been baptised in Clackmannan in 1820 and in the 1851 Census he was 31. He went on to marry Janet Syme/Sim in 1852 - and as they say the rest is history :)
When researching a little while ago I realised that William had had an elder brother called William - who I presumed had died and thus my William was given the same name.
However earlier today I discovered that the older William - baptised six years earlier in 1814 - was still alive when my William was baptised.
Has anybody come across this? I've been at this game for some time but it is a first for me. The only thing that occurs to me is that the older one was expected to die in 1820 - but didn't, of course.
The older one marred an Elizabeth Bernard in 1844. I believe that they had two children Michael and Jean Hunter before 1851. Again IGI provides extracted entries. I believe I have found the children in 1851 with their grandparents at Vennel - is that correct? - in Clackmannan. But I cannot find their parents.
In any MI inscriptions for the area could someone check if they died beween 1847 when Jean was born and say 1851, please?
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
Unusual, like you I have never seen a similar situation where name was used twice with living children...
Have you looked at the original image for 1851 to check the marital status of William b. 1820. My immediate thoughts are that possibly the first William, as you have always thought, likely died shortly after birth. I would also speculate that the marriage that you have found in 1844 could well be that of 'your' William b. 1820 who then shows with his parents in 1851 and his two young children Michael, named after his father, and daughter Jean. 'William b. 1820 then remarries in 1852 Jane Syme.
Sometimes you are lucky and death certs show previous spouses. Also, have you followed through the two children Michael and Jean? Just wondered whether William b. 1820 went on to call any of his children Michael....which would brings us back in a loop ;D
Monica
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That took a while, the index has mangled the surname ::). Going by the births for children on IGI for William and Janet, this looks like them in 1861 - I'll leave transcript as is:
William Nessman 41, Engineman , b. Clackmannan
Janet Nessman 37, b. Inverkeithing, Fife
Jean Nessman 14, daughter, b. Clackmannan
Christain Nessman 7, b. Inverkeithing, Fife
James Nessman 5, b. Inverkeithing, Fife
Ann Nessman 11 Months, b. Ballingry, Fife
Address: 33 xxx, Ballingry
Monica
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And I think the final verification :'( There is a death showing in Ballingry in 1859 for a Michael Penman, aged 14. Mother's surname differs from what you have, LYONS, but there should be enough on the certificate to let you verify William b. 1820 as father.
Monica
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Thanks Monica
In my notes I had made one to myself to check the 1851 census details as the ones I had were from A*y and I had not got relationships. :)
So I did what you suggested and found that William was a Widower :) :) :) :)
Now I need to look at that DC for Michael in 1859. What I might expect is that William's (first) wife - Miss Lyons? -had died. We shall see.
I mentioned before that I had today found evidence that the first William (C1814) was still alive). This was brought to my notice when I found a relevant tree on the A*y W*d Project. The provider had linked a member of her family to this older William.
I'll report what transpires.
Thanks again.
Regards
Reiver
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Hello All
As Monica suggested I viewed the image of the DC for Michael Penman in 1859. He died from Typhoid Fever aged 14 on the 13th July. His parents were William and Janet Penman (maiden name Syme). William was the informant. I noted that somebody not in the know may have read Syme as Lyons - which is what appears in the Index. William married Janet Syme in 1852 - when Michael was about 6.
Michael was born on 1st April 1845 (and baptised at Clackmannan) but parents were William Penman, Engineman and Elizabeth Bernard.
In order to 'sign this off' I'd like to:-
a. Find a death / burial of William Penman between 1814 when he was baptised and 1820 when the second William was baptised.
b. Find a death / burial of Elizabeth Penman (nee Bernard) between 1845 and 1851 - when William was a widower.
Probably both events in - or near - Clackmannan.
If anybody can help I would be very grateful but I shall probably get a copy of the burial index from the Central Scotland FHS anyway.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
Hopefully someone may be able to provide the info.
In the absence of that at present, remember you have the 1851 census entry for William, 31, showing as a widower with his two young children Michael and Jane at home with his parents. The two children's births are also confirmed as OPR extracts.
Hope you find something to be able close things off.
Monica :)
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Reiver,
I have the Clackmannan Parish Burials Index. The period covered is 1832-1854 so no William Penman in it, I'm afraid, but there's an Elizabeth. I'll list all the Penmans mentioned:-
PENMAN(no first name) , child of David, buried 18 Dec.1832
PENMAN, Elizabeth (other name Bernard), wife of William Penman,labourer, buried 26th July 1848
PENMAN, James, child of Hugh,labourer, buried 7th Feb. 1854
PENMAN, Margaret, child of Hugh,labourer, buried 25th Oct.1853
PENMAN, Michael, engine keeper, buried 18th May 1853
Elisabeth
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And for completeness, this looks to be Janet Syme at home with family in the 1851 census:
James Syme 52, gen. lab., b. Auchterarder, Perth
Christian Syme 50, b. Inverkeithing
Janet Syme 22, house servant, b. Inverkeithing
John Syme 20, b. Inverkeithing
Christian Chrichton 10, b. Inverkeithing
Address: Back Close, North Queensferry, Inverkeithing
Reiver, it's probably the way I am searching on A***y, but I can only find one William son of Michael on the OneWorldTree, and that is 'your' William, showing as born 16 Jun 1820 - Clackmannan.
The death registration information for young Michael I think you will find is just one of those things that happen on registration, where father William stated the name of his second wife for Michael's mother.
Monica :)
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Thank you both Monica and Elisabeth very much indeed.
I found the two William's on A*y when I googled "Michael Penman" "Mary Bauchop"
- the two Williams' parents. I got a few hits but one of them was headed A*Y World Tree Project. Hope this helps. If not, I'll try and send the URL.
I had Michael, Mary, William (1820) and three grandchildren in 1851 to begin with but the SP image gave the eureka :) moment ie William was a widower. Of the three grandchildren Michael was 6 and Jean was 4 - Catherine was 19 but we will leave her for now. Michael we know about. He died in 1859 from Typhoid Fever and was William's son by Elizabeth Hardy who died in 1848 - thank you Elisabeth :).
However I think that Jean may not have been William's daughter but his youngest brother Hugh's daughter.
That is because IGI shows rwo extracted births / baptisms:-
Jane Penman born 14th May 1846 Clackmannan Parents Hugh Penman & Jane Nicol.
Jane Hunter Penman born 27th April 1847 Clackmannan Parents William Penman & Elizabeth Bernard.
On census date 1851 (30th March?) Hugh's Jane would have been 4 years old whereas William's Jane would have been 3 years old.
Thanks also Monica for finding Janet Syme ib 1851 in Inverkeithing. I have her birth /baptism in Perth from SP. She was born 1st February 1827. Her parents were John Syme (deceased at baptism) and Janet MacFarlane.
More to resolver :) :) :)
Again thank you both
Regards
Reiver
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Reiver
You know us RCs - we get stuck on detail ;D
Janet Syme shows on the 1851 census as daughter of James Syme and Christian with a birth place of Inverkeithing. This fits the names of her children following her marriage to William and their 1861 census entry that we have, with Christian and James being the prominent names.
Monica :)
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Monica
That's put the cat amongst the pigeons :) :) :) :)
I thought that I'd got Janet Syme's birth / baptism in Perth to a John Syme and Elizabeth McFarlane.
Jane as Jane Penman died in 1888 aged 60 ar Bothkennar. Her DC fibes her father as John Syme but the informant obviously didn't know his grandmother's Christian name or maiden surname.
Ar death in 1888 Janet was 60.
In the preceding census returns she was:
1881 aged 55
1871 aged 45
1861 aged 37
1851 aged 22
All born Inverkeithing.
As you quite rightly say her 1851 parents names - James and Christian - are carried through into the family. And Perth is probably too far from Inverkeithing for ger to make that kind of mistake in her birthplace.
Thanks Monica. I may take this up on the Fife board
Regards
Reiver
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Hello Reiver,
I am related to this family through Margaret(1802) who married David Kirk(1822) if you would like to contact me off line I can fill you in.
Susan