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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: princessblackfoot on Monday 10 November 08 21:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find information about my Great Grandfather John Joseph Lapping. His regimental number was 1026 Corporal Lapping. He served in Gibraltar 1892, in Egypt 1894, and died in Pietermaritzberg of "disease" in 1900 after fighting at the relief of Ladysmith.
The information I cannot find is his birth place and date. I have contacted the regiment who were really helpful but do not hold these records.
Any help or information would be great
cheers
Aly
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Hello There.......
There were not many John Lappings' in England , so between us , we should be able to help you.
If he was serving in the army in 1892 , he would have to be at least 16 years old , which narrows it down a bit . He obviously married , because he was your great grandfather.
Do you know who ? and what was the name of your grandparent , and when was he / she born .
We love a challenge !!
Regards
JeannieR
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Hi There.......
John Lapping , married in Gibralter in 1890 registered in volume 25
a son was born , also John , registered Gibralter 1891 , whilst dad was serving with the 40th regiment . Volume 1127 page 138 .
1901 census
10 Pauls ?? Grove Road , Portsmouth.
Elizabeth J Lapping / widow / age 25 / living on a pension / born Isle of Wight
John Lapping / son / age 9 / born Gibralter
Frederick lapping / age 7 / born Egypt
Albert Lapping / son / age 5 / born Lancs
William Lapping / son / age 8 months / born Lancashire
If you get the marriage certificate , it will give his father name and occupation . You can do this online .
www.gro.gov.uk
Hope this helps
Regards
JeannieR
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Excellent Jeannie !! :D :D
Hi Aly and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
Can you tell us what you already know so we don't go over old ground !
I have been doing the Honour Roll for the 1st battalion in the Boer War ... but I can't find your John ... I'm still looking in my books though ! .... :)
I found my Granddad in 1891 in Jersey in the Channel Islands at Fort Regent barracks ... I don't have access to A* I'm afraid but you may find him there !
Annie :)
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Your pic doesn't appear to match your Regt!!
That chap in the pic is not a corporal, and by the looks of him, not infantry either.
I would say he is either a a cavalry Troop Sgt Major or perhaps an Artillery Sgt of some description (the Battery Sgt Major had a crown, a cannon and x4 stripes..he appears to have x3 a crown and "something"...)
Here are some Victorian rank badges...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,270447.0.html
Any chance of a higher res pic of his right arm badges pse??
His pillbox hat braid would also suggest something quite other than South Lancs
There is something "cavalry" about him...
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You must have added the picture later Aly !! :) :) :)
( though it is a lovely picture !! :D )
Annie :)
Edit ... I just had a thought I wonder if the baby is John Joseph and the soldier is his father ..... :-\
( his hat and collar look like the Royal Artillery to me ::) )
I guess I'll have to wait to find out !! :)
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I found the same information you already had Aly .... in the regimental casualty lists .... except I can add it was 8th February 1900 and the disease was probably typhoid fever ... I can't find any of his personal details I'm afraid ..... but I'll keep looking !
Annie :)
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Hi Guys..........
This is just a THOUGHT.......
John Looks quite mature in the photograph....quite handsome too !!
I have found this little boy on the 1861 census
5 / 7court Watkinson Street , Liverpool
Mary Judge / head / married / age 37 / house keeper / born Ireland
John Judge / son / age 13 / app joiner / born Ireland
Peter Judge / son / age 9 / scholar / born Liverpool
Ann Judge / daughter / age 3 / born Liverpool
MARY LAPPING / daughter / married / age 26 / washer woman / born Ireland
JOHN LAPPING / grandson / age 1 / born Liverpool
Mary Judge / John LAPPIN / registered Sept 1858 / Liverpool / vol 8b page 541
John LAPPIN / registered June 1859 / Liverpool / vol 8b page 147
Was do you think , Annie ?
Regards
JeannieR
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There is a John Lapping on Kev Asplins 1870s discharge list, but no Regt listed...Perhaps an email to him is indicated?
The pic could be as early as the late 1870s...if not earlier...
Perhaps the child is the 1900 death you have in SA?
http://www.britishmedals.us/files/1870dl.htm
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Wow I am amazed by the response and so grateful for all your interest.
My grandfather was William Lapping born at preston Barracks in June after his father died in February. The information I have I got from the Friends of the Queens Regiment Museum who were fantastic but couldn't enlighten me further. The information about where he served is taken from the 1901 census which listed his sons and their birthplaces and the fact that by then Elizabeth was a widow. I got the marriage certificate from my Uncle and the fact that he also possesses a medal for John Joseph. His father is listed as John Lapping occupation Joiner.
I have searched Ancestry Census records and Birth and Marriage records but have failed to match anything up. The photograph shows him in uniform as a colour sereant which he is listed as on his marriage certificate and his two English born sons birth certificates. He must have been demoted before he died.
My father did use to say that his dad was part scouse and part Irish which would seem to suggest that the 1861 census for Liverpool could be his mother (Mary Judge) but I can't find any definite links. and this would also mean that both he and Elizabeth lied on their marriage certificate , she saying she was five years older that she actually was and him five years younger?
I have now been looking for this elusive man for 3 years and he is the reason I first started looking.
Thank you all so much.
Aly
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What regiment does it say on his marriage certificate and the boys birth certs Aly ?
I'm just asking because I went round and round the houses looking for my Granddad in the South Lancs and one day out of the blue I looked at my Grandmas death certificate and found out he had transferred to the Rifle Brigade ... and it had been sitting in front of me all that time !! ::) ::)
Annie :)
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Jeannie I just re read your reply properly and you seem to have hit on something I have not seen before that being the marriage of John Lappin and Mary Judge, couple that with the fact John Judge is an apprentice joiner ....? I can hopefully pop into the Liverpool Library soon and get to the bottom of that one in the Parish records.
This looks quite promising
Aly
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Hi Annie
on the marriage certificate it says he is a colour Sergeant in the 1st South Lancashire Regiment stationed at Buena Vista Barracks, Gibraltar
On alberts Birth certificate (born 1895 Orford Barracks Warrington) he is a colour Sergeant South Lancashire Regiment.
On My Grandfather William Gorge's Certificate (born 1900 Fulwood Barracks Preston) he is listed as deceased, Corporal, South Lancashire Regiment. so not very helpful. He did transfer from the 1st Battalion to the 2nd Battalion just prior to them sailing for South Africa in December 1899, according to the Researcher in the Regimental Museum.
He was postumously awarded the South Africa Medal with the Relief of Ladysmith Clasp in April 1901
I am struggling because the family were never very close and my dad moved away from the age of 17 and it was only really after his death that we made any real contact again and I have very few actually people to talk to about this.
Aly
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Hi Everyone!
I am researching my family history and my great uncle was PTe Harold Wright from Chester serving in the 8th South lancs regiment and sadly killed on 16th October 1917 and is buried in Woburn Cemetery Cuinchy. I would love to know more about where he fought, which battle he was killed in and who his comrades were. I am the head of his family now and there are no living relatives that I am aware of to ask - would welcome offers of help.
Regards
Gillm
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Hi Gillm
I found out quite a lot from the Friends of the South lancashire regiment. I just wrote to them at the museum in Preston giving what details I had and they did some research for me. I think there may have been a small charge, but they will advise you of that. Give me a minute and I will find the address for you.
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Hi Gillm
I wrote to the Friends of the Museum of the Queens Lancashire Regiment at fulwood Bareacks, Preston,PR2 8AA. I am a newbie myself and I was astonished by the speed and amount of help I got from my enquiry. These people are real experts.
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The soldier is a Sergeant, Royal Artillery, pre-1880 full dress tunic.
Post-1880 grenades were worn on the collar of full dress tunic.
Isandlwana
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Hi Aly
I am confused why the child (William) was born in Preston. The Depot of the South Lancs was in Warrington (sharing with the Liverpools). The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment had it's Depot in Preston.
The number 1026 would have been issued in the early 1880s. Can you say on which occasions the number was quoted - marriage, 1895 birth, 1900 birth, Boer War casualty roll?
Ken
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Hi!
Many thanks for help. I will write to the Friends of the Museum as suggested.
Gill
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The soldier is a Sergeant, Royal Artillery, pre-1880 full dress tunic.
Post-1880 grenades were worn on the collar of full dress tunic.
Isandlwana
Thought so...
Doesn't really fit in with the original thoughts on the person sought...Not a South Lancs then at all :o
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Hi all
He was definitley South Lancs, as I have had that infomation from family, Marriage Certificate, two birth certificates and the regiment itself, which is where the number came from. They have all the records of him except where and when he was born.
On the marriage certificate and Alberts birth certificate, he is a colour sergeant in the 2nd South Lancashire Regiment. By the time William was born he had moved to the ist South Lancs and was demoted to Corporal. I have no idea why.
In the regimental Casusalty lists he is 1026 Cpl Lapping J and in the Roll of individuals entitled to South Africa medal& Clasps he is in the Ist South Lancs and is listed as the same.
Cheers
Aly
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Hi Aly
I am confused why the child (William) was born in Preston. The Depot of the South Lancs was in Warrington (sharing with the Liverpools). The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment had it's Depot in Preston.
The number 1026 would have been issued in the early 1880s. Can you say on which occasions the number was quoted - marriage, 1895 birth, 1900 birth, Boer War casualty roll?
Ken
Not sure why his wife was in Preston, but Albert was definitly born in Warrington,
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Hi Aly - I can add that 1026 Cpl. J. Lapping 1/South Lancashire Regiment died of disease at Pietermaritzburg 8/2/1900 and is buried at Fort Napier Cemetery, Pietermaritzburg. His grave is marked with a named metal cross and his name appears on the commemorative panels at All Saints Church, Ladysmith. His religion is noted as Roman Catholic.
Regards, David
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Aly,
You wrote:
He was definitley South Lancs, as I have had that infomation from family, Marriage Certificate, two birth certificates and the regiment itself, which is where the number came from. They have all the records of him except where and when he was born.
I don't doubt the documents you have, but the man in the photograph can't be the same man.
The man in the photograph is a Sergeant in the Royal Regiment of Artillery, pre-1880. He wears a blue uniform with a pillbox hat, if you look at the image you will see a cannon in between his stripes and crown on his badge of rank, as has already been pointed out.
Whereas a soldier in The Prince of Wales's Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment) in the 1890's would have worn a scarlet tunic with white facings on his collars and cuffs and blue trousers with a narrow scarlet stripe down the side. As an infantryman he would have initially worn a glengarry cap, and subsequently a field service cap as opposed to a pillbox hat worn in photograph. In full dress he would have worn a spiked Home-Service helmet. For an example of the uniform in colour do a search on Google images there are at least two companies in the U.K. selling an 1890's Richard Simpkin print of the South Lancs.
Sorry but the man in the photograph does not go along with the documents.
Isandlwana
(Which isn't too far in South African terms from Ladysmith.)
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Sometimes, something one has always believed to be "certain" is dashed to pieces when properly researched...
I'm sorry if this is a disappointment to you, but the picture and the documents don't marry up together at all.
On the plus side, you have found another Victorian soldier in your tree whom you now need to identify! ;D
Edit...
Ooops sorry Isand...Seem to have just echoed your post...That'll teach me to leave the computer on without refreshing the page for 40 mins!
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Thanks all of ,
i now have the onerous task of informing my 90 odd year old step aunt that she has the wrong man!
Onwards to my new quest
I love this site!
Aly
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Just a thought. John's wife Elizabeths father was a Warrant Officer in "2 OSD". She was born 1875 so the period would be right if it was him in the photo holding her
He is William Heard born 1851, Bristol
Not sure what OSD stands for so although I know he was military I did not know what regiment.
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OSD = Ordnance Store Department.
Although a different corps to the RA they were based near the RA batteries and a lot of ex-RA men transferred to them, as they were used to handling 'ordnance'.
In the history of the Logistics Corps they say that the name OSD was only used 1875 to 1877 (ish) but I have found it referred to in the 1890 Army List.
Use of the rank of Warrant Officer started in the supply corps around 1879, 30-35 years before it was in general use in the army.
Ken
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Thanks Ken
That would appear to solve identification of my mystery soldier. The photograph is almost certainly then my great great grandad William Heard. That would mean the photograph was probably taken around 1875-6 and is him with the young Elizabeth, John Josephs future wife.
If he was in the Royal Artillary and 16 years later, when Elizabeth married, had transferred to OSD that would fit very well.
Unfortunately all I know of him is that he was stationed at some point in the Isle of White, where he met his wife and at some point served in India.
I feel more research coming on,
Thanks for all the help
Aly
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Aly.......
As a starting point.....
1871 census
Artillery Barracks, South Shoebury, Essex.
William HERD / age 22 / single / Head of Company / Corporal Royal Artillery / born Bristol
RG10 1670 125 33
JeannieR
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Hi Aly
I had some spare time today and found him in the Muster Books and Pay Lists for the 2nd Battalion of the South Lancs. Regt. In both he is 1026, with his name given as John Lappin - ie no 'g'.
In January to March 1888 he is a Corporal Lance Sergeant in the Straits Settlements. The battalion was split between Singapore and Penang.
In April to Sept 1886 they are based in Natal (South Africa). He is a Corporal in the Mounted Infantry Company, and it gives the interesting information that he had joined the 2/SL from the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers on 5 May 1886.
Unfortunately I don't believe the previous Muster Book for the 1/RIF has survived. I certainly could not find it in the index. If I get a chance in a few weeks time I will see what else I can find.
Do you have any information that will give an approximate year of birth? To be a Coproral in 1886, he was probably born before 1865.
Here is a list of the daily pay the various ranks received at the time (7 days a week):
= Senior Sergeants 3s to 5s 6d per day
= Colour Sergeants 3s
= Sergeants 2s 4d
= Lance Sergeants 2s
= Corporals 1s 8d
= Lance Corporals 1s 3d *
= Drummer 1s 1d
= Private 1s
= Boy 8d
* L/Corps often spent a year as unpaid, waiting for a paid vacancy
Ken
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Hi Ken
thank you for putting in all this time for me it is much appreciated.
His marriage certificate (1890) indicates that he was born in 1865, but if Jeannie R is right (thanks for your help too Jeannie) and he is the son of Mary Judge and John Lapping, he would have been born in Liverpool in1859. I have been in touch with another branch of this family and they also had two birth dates for John, the same as mine, but he disappears from the census records after 1861. The lady told me that John Lappin (father) was a Mariner from Ireland and may have ben in the habit of taking his young sons to sea with him.
He may also have gone back to family in Ireland where his mother and grandfather Owen Lapping came from. That could explain it if he started out in the Royal Irish Fusiliers. I know that he was also in the 1st South Lancs when he died.
It also states on his marriage certificate and his son Alberts birth certificate (1895) that he was a Colour Sergeant.
Cheers
Aly
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Hi Aly
I have amended my last post. He was a Lance Sergeant in 1888. I knew there was a reason I put the two ranks in bold.
Ken
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Aly......
Don't wish to confuse you more, but have just come across this 1871 census.
1H 17 Court , Norfolk Street, St Thomas , Liverpool.
John Judge / head / age 53 / labourer / born Ireland
Bridget Judge / wife / age 43 / born Ireland
John Judge / son / age 23 / labourer / born Ireland
Peter Judge / son / age 17 / labourer / born Liverpool
Patrick LAPING / grandson / age 7 / born Liverpool
Ann LAPING / grandaughter / age 5 / born Liverpool
I can find no sign of John snr, Mary or John jnr
in later census , no Ann , but Patrick seems to end up in Northumberland , where there are a few Irish Lapping/ Lappin.
I wonder if this is the John Lapping , who married Mary Judge......
1841 census
Newcastle on Tyne
Patrick Lapping / 28 / labourer / born Ireland
Agnes Lapping / 28 / born Ireland
JOHN LAPPING / age 6 / born in County / no
Thomas Lapping / age 2 / born in County / no
Regards
JeannieR
Ps. I have just realised, that I put the name of Mary Judge , as head of house , on the 1861 census details , I posted....it shoulld be Bridget....
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Hi Jeannie
Thanks for the information, after your help last time I did find this census record and through a different website managed to get in touch with Ann(ie)'s grandaughter who still lives in the Merseyside area. It is the same family and that is the John lappin who married Mary Judge, The lady was able to provide certificates for their marriage. according to the certificate John was a "Mariner" and it was assumed by their family that when the lads (John and Patrick ) got old enough, they went to sea with him. What "old enough" was in those days I am not sure. I have also found a death record for 1866 for a John Lapping, born Liverpool 1859, So I need look in the Parish records to see if it is the John, son of Mary and John. If so I have to start all over again.
I do know from that family that the three children were all born in Liverpool as was John Snr, but his father was Owen Lapping who came from Ireland.
Ah well,
Thanks for everything
Aly
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Hi Ken
thanks for your persistance, I just wonder if he actually got as high as Colour Sergeant or whether that was a flight of fancy too, and if he did gain the higher rank what he did to be demoted. It would be great if we could have a time machine.
Thanks for your help
Aly
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Dear Aly
Do you have any information on Albert Lapping please? I understand that he died in Hull in 1979.
Best wishes
Ian
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Hello Ian......
And welcome to Rootschat....
What kind of nformation are you seeking , about Albert ?
Albert Lapping was born on 25th December 1895, at Warrington, and died at Hull in 1979......
His mother remarried in 1905, one Joseph Smalley Atkinson and had three more children, Samuel , Emma and Lily Atkinson.
I have looked, but can't see that he served in WW1, but it could be that he served in a Naval Service. His brother John, served in the Royal Navy.
We will try to help.
Regards
JeannieR
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Hi Ian & Jeannie
Albert was my Grandad Williams' older brother. He was born to Elizabeth Lapping Nee Heard and John Joseph Lapping in the Orford Barracks at Warrington. Elizabeths mother was present at the birth.
He appears on the 1901 census with his mother and three brothers living in Portsmouth. By this time his father was dead from disease in Pietermaritzberg. (He was buried there).
After Elizabeth married Joseph Atkinson the family moved to Hull except John who settled and married in Portsmouth. I have been unable to find very much information on the Lapping family as they were not close and little in the way of documentation has survived.
Are you related to Albert?
Best wishes
Aly
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Dear Jeannie and Aly
Thank you both for your kind messages, and my apologies for not replying earlier. I believe that I am related to Albert, and am seeking any background information on him, which you have now kindly provided. If anyone else has information I'd be grateful to receive it.
Best regards
Ian
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Hello Ian.....
I have found that Albert Lapping, married in 1966 at Hull. His bride was Ethel M D PICK, who was born 23rd August 1893, and died in 1976 at Hull..
I suspect that it was Ethel's 2nd marriage, but I cannot find a earlier one for Albert.
I will have another look though, and see what I can find.....
Regards
JeannieR
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Dear Jeannie
How very kind you are! Thanks so much for this information - I appreciate it very much.
All best wishes
Ian
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Hi Jeannie and Ian
the only other marriage record I can find for an Albert E Lapping is in Dover in Kent in Jan -Feb-March1920, which is about the right time. His spouses name was Rose Phillips. Not sure how to check if it is the same Albert but I will keep looking
Cheers
Aly