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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: MrBluesman on Friday 07 November 08 18:56 GMT (UK)
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Hi I wonder if anyone could help with any suggestions on where I can look for more on this problem.
In the 1901 census I have a record of my Great Grandparents William & Minnie White and their Children. The 2 eldest children were from Williams first marriage, the next eldest was born in Ireland and I think she was Williams daughter, the rest were Williams and Minnies. The problem is I can't find a birth, marriage or death for Minnie. Now on the birth certificates of her children on 2 of them say her maiden name was Macgill and on another it says Magill. Now I have found a marriage certificate for a Agnes Magill in 1918 and the age matches that of the 1901 census. I know that William died in 1932 and my dad was born in 1937 and I believe Minnie lived with my dad for a while when he was young. I don't know if she died while she was still living with them or if she moved away before she died.
Does anyone heve any imaginative ideas ?
Regards
Andrew
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This 1901 census record. Apart from the statement that william White & Minnie are shown as parents , there is next to no factual info in there.
what is this 1901 record?, names, ages, occs, birthplaces, location
What info is on these certificates? which names appear and with what details?
We can (sometimes) come up with inspired ideas, but we need to start from known Facts; not airy-fairy generalisations...
Pauline
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Hi Again
The 1901 Census ref is RG13/3787
William White, Felt hat finnisher, age 35, Born in Scotland
Minnie White, Wife, Can't work out occupation but could be something with hats, age 28, born in Scotland.
Joseph, Son, Cotton Spinner, age 14, born in Denton
John, Son, age 12, born in Denton
Agnes, Daug, age 10, born Ireland
May, Daug, age 7, born Stockport
Minnie, Daug, age 5, born Hooley Hill
Hugh, Son, Age 4, born Hooley Hill
George, Son, Age 1mo, born Hooley Hill
There is another son born in 1904 Fred Lewis White born in Audenshaw.
Fred was my Grandfather on his birth certificate it says his mother was Minnie White formerly Macgill. As the transcription on the census said May was Mary I ordered a certificate for her this says the mother was Minnie White formerly Magill as one of these was wrong I ordered Hughs certificate and this one said Macgill.
Joseph and John are for Williams first marriage They can be found on the 1891 census RG12 3285. This census shows William as a widow living with his father in law there is also another son Richard who is 5 months old, Williams first wife died giving birth to Richard. Sadly Richard died shortly after the census in 1891.
Now being Agnes was born in Ireland in about 1891 as she was 10 in 1901 this makes me think that Agnes wasn't Williams daughter. During my seach I have found a marriage record of an Agnes Magill getting married in 1918 on this certificate it says agnes was 27 this ties in with the age on the 1901 Census. There is also no fathers name on the marriage certificate this also ties in with the idea that she isn't Williams but could also mean she didn't want Williams name on the certificate if William and Minnie weren't married when she was born and she had a different surname to him.
William died in 1932 and William and Minnie along with there son Fred all lived at the same address. This is the same address at which my dad was born at and lived in his youth. My mum seems to remember my dad telling her that Minnie lived with them when he was young, she doesn't know if she died while living at this address or if she moved prior to her death.
I have checked Scotish records and can't find a birth record for Minnie. I do know she was in Ireland for a period but how long I don't know. I can't find a marriage record for William and Minnie they may not have been married or could have been married in Ireland. I also can't find a record of her death but I am probably looking after 1937 when my dad was born and 1954 when Fred died as my mum remembers Fred but doesn't know of my dad grandparents.
If there is any further info I might have that could help let me know but I think I have got most of it here.
Andrew
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There is a Minnie McGill born c.1876 on the 1881 and 1891 Scotland census, mother Agnes McGill ...
1891
480 St Georges Rd , Glasgow St George in the Fields
Agnes McGill, 48 b. Montgreenan Ayrshire, laundress
Agnes, 17
Minnie, 15
Jane, 12
William, 12
Agnes McGill senior still there in 1901, also Agnes junior (now married), but not Minnie.
The name Agnes might come from Minnie's side of the family then.
:) Barbara
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Thanks for the info Barbara, I had seen that record myself the only issue I had with it was minnie's age it say she was born abt 1876 on both census records and was 15 in 1891 when Agnes was born. Now I know it wouldn'd be impossible for Minnie to have a daughter at that age but the 1901 census puts her at being 28 which is 3 years out. That alone means nothing and she could have lied about her age to cover the fact she was so young. I have however just found her Death Certificate which says she was 76 when she died in 1950 which again ties in with the census from 1901 and not the 1881 or 1891 scotland census. The death certificate does however have the right address for Minnie and the infomant is Agnes Milnes which ties the marriage certificate in for Agnes as she married George Minles.
Regards
Andrew
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Hi do you have this minnie from the 1881 Scotland census
Glencairn, Dumfireshie, 1/9/16 cssct 1881_323
Hugh McGill 40
Minnie McGill 39
James 12
Isabella 9
Annie 8
Jessie 6
Minnie 4
Hugh 3
There is also a Minnie Mcgill 16 in West Derby District 1891 but from Ireland
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Hi, Yes I had seen that Minnie and the same as the other the age again doesn't match but again did she lie about her age? The other thing with this record is that as with the other where there was a mother and sister called Agnes which if it is the right one she called her daughter after them, This ones father and brother were called Hugh which Minnie called one of her sons. I believe either of these could be right but really need something else to prove it.
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Hi I don't know whether this helps at all, but the names on for Hugh & George on Cheshire BMD come out as
Hugh Campbell White 1897 Audenshaw
George Munro White 1901 Audenshaw
Hooley Hill was an old name for the Guide Bridge area of Audenshaw. Audenshaw was in Lancashire until 1974 when it became part of Tameside. Tameside was formed from parts of old Lancashire & old Cheshire, but BMD records are to be found on CheshireBMD for both parts (basically CheshireBMD was the earlier site).
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Hi, I did have that info about Hugh and George but thanks for looking and thanks for the info on Hooley Hill
Regards
Andrew
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Hi Again
I have just got a copy for the household for the 1911 census and Minnie says she was born in Falkirk.
Regards
Andrew
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Hmm.
I looked on Scotlands People and there are no Minnie McGills born in Falkirk. Or at least, if they were born in Falkirk, they were registered somewhere else.
It offered me 3 matches on a soundex search for a female birth of Min* Magill born between 1865 and 1880, these were:
1868, Mina Anna McClew, b. Portpatrick, Wigtownshire
1876, Minna McGill, b. Glencairn, Dumfriesshire (so the one on the 1881 Scotland census)
1879, Minna Michael, b. Newington, Edinburgh City/Midlothian.
Newington is the nearest one to Falkirk - but still 30 miles away!
Ancestry is down, otherwise I'd help look fo Minnies in Falkirk 1881. And Scotlands People is very slow, I think everyones out doing 1911-based lookups ::)
:) Barbara
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Thanks for the lookup I am also finding the same thing I have e-mailed Falkirk Reg office to see if they can help. It's worth a try
Andrew
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Hi Again
It's been a while since I started this post I got a reply from the Reg office in Falkirk they were helpful but still came up blank. I do have a photo of Minnie by her son's grave in France so I thought I would check out passports. I first contacted the IPS and asked them about the history of passposts and if she would have needed one. They told me she would have had a passport at the time to travel to France and told me to contact the Disclosure of Information department. I did that and had to send them a lot of info and they did send it back saying they checked from 1898 until she died in 1950 and couldn't locate one. I do know there are trips organised to the war cemeteries where they didn't need passports so I guess she went on one of those. I know she died at the Royal Infirmary in Manchester would they have any records? I can't find any occupation on any records so guess she wasn't working. Anyone got any ideas?
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
You have her death certificate for 1950 I see - there is a Minnie White buried in Southern Cemetery, with Sarah White, Frank White and Francis Smith in the same grave. Would that be her? Sarah White died in 1926, Frank in 1932, francis Smith in 1939.
The burial record would give you address at time of death, but I'm not sure it would tell you any more than is on the death certificate.
http://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/ Pay per view unfortunately.
:) Barbara
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Hi Barbara
Thanks for your help I had seen that record and couldn't tie it into the family. After that I went to Dukinfield Cemetery and found a Minnie White at Audenshw cemetery which is the correct one. She is there with of her children and her husband. There is a headstone but that only gives date death and age. Her address was Welbeck Street in Ashton-Under-Lyne. This is where my Grandparents also lived at the same address and where my father lived when he was young. As you said it doesn't really help me anymore.
Andrew
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Hi
Do you have the pedigree information from lds regarding william white, this has william as father of agnes, born in ireland. Also names his parents, first spouse harriet other information but only has minnies first name.
Hope this is of some help.
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Hi
Thanks for the info yes I do have all that info although it states Agnes is his child I don't think she was but until I get her birth certificate from Ireland I can't prove it. Thanks again for checking.
Andrew