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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: saxonw. on Friday 07 November 08 18:51 GMT (UK)
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I nearly added this on to the other posting for Lancasters. James Henry Lovelock (born 1924) was in the Lancaster pathfinder squadron . I was always told that is was returning from the 1000 bomber raid: but now I understand that he came down over Northern Holland where his grave is. But there appears to be no reference to him on the CWGC site. Any suggestions please?
I haven't got a copy of the picture of the grave: that went to another (and closer) part of the family.
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Here he is ...
Name - LOVELOCK, JAMES HENRY
Initials - J H
Nationality - United Kingdom
Rank - Sergeant (Flt. Engr.)
Regiment/Service - Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text - 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn.
Date of Death - 20/10/1943
Service No - 1582638
Casualty Type - Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference - Coll. grave 31. G. 11-13.
Cemetery - REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
And his headstone has been photographed ! ( which you can buy for a 3 pound donation )
http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=1351672
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That's wonderful. Thank you. Given the date of his death: anyone know what raid he was pathfinding for?
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Looks like he went down in softening up of Berlin
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_lancaster_bomber_command.html
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Lancaster JB348 on mission to Leipzig
Took off at 17.39 from Gransen Lodge. Crashed at Harrenstätte some 5 km NW of Werlte, shotdown by Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer of 12./NJG 1 (his 33rd out of 121 victories). Funerals for those killed were held at Harrenstätte on 24th Oct 1943. They have been subsequently re-interred in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery. All killed except Johnson
P/O K R Wood RAAF
Sgt J H Lovelock
P/O J N R Redpath RCAF
Sgt F W Bundy
F/Sgt W H Hedley
WO1 O O Johnson RCAF PoW
F/Sgt E C Brunet RCAF
WO1 O O Johnson was interned in Camp 4B, PoW No 261446
K
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From the Bomber Command Diaries:
20/21 October 1943
Leipzig: 358 Lancasters of 1, 5, 6 and No 8 Groups. 16 Lancasters lost, 4.5 per cent of the force. This was the first serious attack on this distant German city. Weather conditions were very difficult - Bomber Command records describe them as 'appalling' - and the bombing was very scattered.
K
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I'm not sure if you'd be interested in this ... but I did find this .... :-X
33 20.10.1943 19:25 Lancaster 12./NJG Near Harrenstätte Lancaster III (JB348) “LQ-R” of 405 Sqn, RAF, 6 killed, 1 POW
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schnaufer.html
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Wow That's brilliant: I'm just about to find chunks of the RAF family history for someone who hasn't got long to live and doesn't realise it: but loves the RAF/RFC so finding out all the answers is fantastic so I can tell him
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My mother’s twin brother Ernest Charles Brunet was the tail gunner in Lancaster JB348 that crashed near Harrenstatte in Germany. On a business trip to Germany I had the honour of paying my respects at his grave in Kleve. I have always had an interest in trying to find out more information about him, and his service record. Through the internet I have found out that the plane was shot down by Major Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer. When my brother and I visited the war museum here in Canberra we were stunned to see the tail of the Major’s ME110 and could clearly see the “kill” stencil of our uncle’s plane. The Australian connection continues with the pilot of the Lancaster, K. R. Wood, who was also killed, coming from Sydney. From the records I have found there was one survivor. Do you have any information on Warrant Officer 1, O. O. Johnson RCAF (mid-upper gunner) or any way to contact his family. I would appreciate any help. I have sent the above to:
No. 405 (RCAF) Squadron Association
Mrs. L.W. Hayes
13 Woodland Way
Petts Wood
Kent
BR5 1NB
England
But I have not had any reply. I am also possibly moving to Vienna later this year and will have a go at finding the crash site
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Sorry I've not replied beofre but the most relevant member of the family has now said he is interested and I have forwarded to hin the postings.
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Hi
I am not at home at moment but if you want I will type up a potted history of his sqn for you from a book I have from 1980....
You may be able to find the Warrant Officer on ancestry.com and you never know his family may be doing some research on him too.
Dee
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Oh I forget to say there is a pathfinder museum at RAF Wyton. Have a look at the following http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbramptonwytonhenlow/aboutus/pathfinder.cfm
Dee
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Thanks you. I#m waing to here from sis as she has met him for the first time for a long time today. But I will get his info concerning this.
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Good luck with your research.
Dee :)
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Hi Dee
I haven't been checking this link as I thought it was dead then looked one more time and surprise surprise. Yes I would appreciate any 405 squadron information you may have. I believe my uncle was not in the squadron for all that long but it might give me some added information to trace down WO Johnson. Thanks heaps
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charlesmorris: I have sent you a personal message.
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I don't know if this is the place to post this but I'm trying to trace someone who was in the Pathfinders.
I'm trying to trace my father's cousin Jack Hall, who was in the Pathfinders.
Unfortunately I have very little information about him.
His name is Jack Hall and was born in 1921, I believe he was a Flight Lieutenant.
I believe he may have been a navigator but my father is certain that he flew in a Mosquito. My understanding is that at some point he was asked to fly as navigator in bombers who constantly failed to finish missions, how true that is I do not know. After the war he became a Customs Officer, we think in Ramsgate.
I have no idea about service number or where he was stationed.
I tried the Pathfinder museum but they couldn't help, they sent me an application for Service Records but I just do not have the information to be able to fill them in.
Many thanks
Andy
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Yes this is a good place as Kyt has lots of info but it might also be worth putting a posting on www.rafcommands.com/forum as they have some very knowledgeable people too...
Dee
For Charles Morris:
Apologies I just realised that 405 are a Canadian Sqn or Australian Sqn! Unfortunately I dont have a potted history for them. My book says the sqns are outside of its scope.... However if you go onto www.cfww2.com and put a posting on their forum they have a couple of good people on there who can can advise.. Its especially for Commonwealth Forces enquiries and you can get some answers from them. Again sorry.. My fault for not looking in my book before I posted that!
Dee
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What would a lad from Birmingham (yes Warwickshire) be doing in Canadian or Aussie squadron?
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Hi Saxonw
They mixed and matched them on all the sqns. My Sqn that I am interested in was listed as a NZ one but they had all sorts of nations on them.
Dee
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hi. im new to roots, im not sure if this is how you reply as this isnt about the airforce. i notice you have researched the trestain family name. this is my maiden name. my father was edward trestain. b1918. my grandad was charles john trestain .b hackney. is there any connections here.
many thanks.
lorraine
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Hi thats good but perhaps a moderator could put these two posts on a Cornish link please under Trestain
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Saxon
Have you found the pathfinder museums website when you were googling. Maybe the guys there might be able to help too!
Dee
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Hi I'am back under a new name having moved to Vienna and with a new email address. I'm still really keen on getting any information on Johnson would appreciat eany help.
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I know its a bit of a rigmarole but have you tried the London Gazette and Flight Global? Try putting in his initials and surname only... I gather you have been sent the form for applying for his service record. The Canadians which I gather the Warrant Officer is have their own record systems. If you google WW2 Canadian records it might bring up a link.
Dee
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Hi Dee
I haven't tried the London Gazette or flight global. I have tried the Canadian records a few years back and found nothing. Thanks for the leads.
To saxonw I got your message but for some reason am unable to respond. My email is (*), would really appreciate any information thanks
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Hi SaxonW Thanks for trying I do appreciate your effort
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Saxon
Please send CRMorris a private message via his profile and then you can exchange email addresses...
Dee
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Hi Everyone
I contacted a Mr Wim Govaerts who has written a book on Schnaufer....this is what he had to say regarding the action with JB348:
I have no detailed information from Schnaufer personally, most of this was destroyed at the end of the war, but his radio-operator Rumpelhardt kept a diary from which the following is an extract.
They were flying at an altitude of 5400 meters wenn Schnaufer shot down his first bomber at 19.13 hours. Shortly afterwards Schnaufer made another attack from beneath at a bomber, but this failed.
Then according to Rumpelhardt: "Suddenly I had in my Lichtenstein at about two kilometers distance another target in sight, which moved itself a few hundred meters lower. After a crazy pursuit, left, a little to the right, again somewhat left, now some to the right, and so on - was the Tommy in front of us. Heinz made a heavy attack to the left wing. Then plunged the bomber down as a burning torch, almost straight down, after which it exploded on the ground in a tousand gloing pieces."
After these two victories, the German radarsystem was apparently jaimed by the British and Schnaufer flew further on in the hope to get a glimpse from Bombers - so they turned to Wilde Sau at that moment - but over Bremen they noticed that a German nightfighter was being shot down by his own Flak, whereupon Schnaufer decided to fly back home.
This might perhaps explain as to why only the midupper gunner survived. He noticed the attack first hand - having sight over the wing he saw what happened. He was also the closest to the exit door.
So it might well have been possible that he noticed the heavy fire instantly, took his parachute, and jumped - the others most likely simply had no chance to get out, as the bomber was already plunging down at high speed.
Finding the exact crashsite is going to be difficult if you do not have help from someone localy, but you might already try to write to the council and explain them about your plans. Perhaps they have a local historian who can help.
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Finding the exact crashsite is going to be difficult if you do not have help from someone locally, but you might already try to write to the council and explain them about your plans. Perhaps they have a local historian who can help.
If you are really keen to track down the crashsite then exploring what records remain of the work of the Missing Research and Enquiry Service (MRES) might be a useful start. MRES dispatched Missing Research and Enquiry Units (MREUs) throughout Europe and extensive enquiries took place and records prepared of every case. The records that exist are held in TNA. A useful background read on all of this is "Missing Believed Killed - The Royal Air Force and the Search for Missing Aircrew 1939-1952" by Stuart Hadaway (Pen and Sword Books, 2008).
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Thanks Imber I will give that a try
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Hi I'am back under a new name having moved to Vienna and with a new email address. I'm still really keen on getting any information on Johnson would appreciat eany help.
R/107156 Warrant Officer Ole Orval Johnson was from Kamsack, Saskatchewan. Next of kin was his father, listed as PM Johnson. Johnson was held at Stalag IVB, Mühlberg
There is currently one "Johnson" listed in the Kamsack telephone directory with street address. Let me know if you want it PMed to you.
DTD
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Thanks DTD!
Yes I would appreciate the information, and will definitely get in contact with them.
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Today I happened upon what appears to be a surviving propeller of JB348.
Googling it led me to this forum.
If anyone is still interested, send me a PM.
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Looks like people are still following this thread :)
The propeller is at a private museum in Groningen, the Netherlands.
The plaque underneath reads:
Hamilton-Standard
Lancaster III JB 348 405SQ
Crashed 20-10-43 19.22
Waddenzee
The given location (Waddenzee is the sea to the north of the Netherlands) seems to be a bit of a problem here, it's quite a distance from Harrenstatte.
In any case, the picture I took is here:
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/tderks/33451923
The museum website can be found here:
www.canadianalliedforces.com/