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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: copperbeech5 on Wednesday 05 November 08 22:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to locate where Ox Close was during the 1650 -1750S. I know it was Derbyshire, and I believe it was around Baslow, Hassop area.
Any help trying to locate this place would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
Copperbeech5
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Hi Copperbeech 5,
I know of the existance of three Ox Close's. One was a farm somewhere in the NW of Derbyshire I would have to dig much deeper to remember where this was, but I think it was on the Nottingham/Newhaven Turnpike (constructed in the mid 1700's - from memory) somewhere around the Alfreton area. The second one is an Oxclose wood near to Haddon Hall south of Bakewell. If you take the A6 north to Rowsley follow the road which bends sharply for Bakewell, carry on to the dual carriage way (Picory Corner) just before the Haddon Hall car park. On the left at Picory Corner is the road to Stanton, Alport and Youlgreave, carry on along this road and on the right before you reach a bridge (on the left) called Hawleys Bridge which goes up to Stanton and Winster, there is a wood fringing the road, this is Oxclose wood, it's before you reach the quarry entrance. There is also a lead mine to the N W of Matlock called the Oxclose lead mine which dates back to about the mid 1500's which I know was worked extensively in the 1600's. I think the one that fits the area where you require could be the one near Picory Corner (I don't think I have the correct spelling for this). In what connection do you want Oxclose for?
Kind regards,
Margaret
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Dear Margaret,
Firstly thank you so much for your reply, and help in this matter.
I am posing this question on a friends behalf, so please bear with me!
My friend had 4or5 Wills where Ox Close is mentioned, with a property called "Lower House, Ox Close, in the parish of Bakewell." The Wills are spread over the period of 1600 -1700. The Family concerned was from Baslow, and were the Marsden family. I believe that they were farmers, and they had 2 butchers shops in Baslow.
Lower House (there was also an Upper House in existence) Ox Close was handed down over several generations in the families Wills.
Thank you for your help.
Kind regards,
Copperbeech5
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Hi Copperbeech5,
I unearthed my old OS map for Bakewell, Sheet SK 26 1:25 000 First Series and found that the location of the Oxclose Wood (beneath which flows a sough called Black sough or Oxclose sough - a sough [pronouned "suff"] was a drainage level driven from the nearest river i.e. the River Lathkill to dewater local lead mines) although it's name is not shewn on the map it is within the township of Upper and Nether Haddon, which lies within the parish of Bakewell. Baslow is not far away and was in Bakewell parish. If you look at the website for British History Online www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50721 you will find a lot of information about Bakewell, it's early history and what villages and townships made up it's parish.
I found that there is a Bakewell and District Historical Society which has been producing a regular Journal for years now, a complete set of which are at Bakewell Library and can be referred to. I couldn't find an address for you to contact them, but I found out that the Old House Museum, Cunningham Place, Bakewell had been restored by them and given to them by the previous owners. The museum is now closed, only being open from March to October annually. However, there is an email address for you to possibly contact them. info@oldhousemuseum.org.uk for further information. Perhaps one of the members may know more about Oxclose in the township of Nether Haddon if you were to send an enquiry, or if that isn't it perhaps they could advise on an alternative location.
Finally can I suggest if you are within travelling distance of Derbyshire Record Office at Matlock to book an appointment and request to view (if they are available), Bakewell Hearth Tax Assessments (this tax was imposed from 1662-1689); Bakewell Enclosure Awards and map (1700's) and finally Bakewell Tithe Map and Schedule (Tithe map surveys are from the late 1830's to the 1850's). These are a good source of information of family names, field names and who owned what etc. etc. Forgive me sending you this information if you are already aquainted with it, but in the past these documents have helped me.
I am interested in Bakewell because many of my ancestors (KEELING/FOGG/HOWARD) came from this area, and also because I am very interested in the Peak District's lead mining history.
I hope that you are successful in finding out the information you are seeking. If I can be of further help please let me know.
Kind regards,
Margaret (no longer living in Derbyshire, exiled in Hampshire!)
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Dear Margaret,
Thank you very much once again. I am not around much tonight, but will confir with my friend, and get back to you!
Thank you for your help,
Copperbeech5
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Hi,
There is a transcript of the Baslow Tithe Award 1841:-
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Baslow/BubnellTithe48.html
Ox Close/meadow x3 mentined. Ox Close is a very common name for a piece of Land, and as you will
see both of these in 1841 were owned by the Duke of Rutland.
You may get a result by searching:-
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
Restrict your search to Derbyshire, enter the names in the wills i.e. "Thomas Marsden".
Spendlove
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Hi Spendlove,
Thank you so much for you help, and the links you enclose, I have printed them off and will pass them on to my friend!
All help always much appreciated.
Kind wishes,
Copperbeech5
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Hi
I´ve always thought of it being just north of Chatsworth but I would love if it were pinned down properly.
Here is a bit of a rental agreement - very badly transcribed my me :-) Since it specifically refers to Byflatt as west of the river I've guessing that Ox Close was east of the Derwent. I suppose Chatsworth Archives would be the place to know.
And in the yeare of our Lord God 1695 Betweene the Most Noble William Duke of Devonshire of the one part. And Robert Marsden and Edmund Marsdenof Chatsworth in the County of Derby Husbandmen of the other part Witnesseth that the said William Duke of Devonshire as well for and in consideration of the Summe of forty two pounds of lawful English money to him in hand payd at or before the sealing and delivery of these presents by way of a ffine or Income as allso for and in consideracon of the Rent and Covenant hereafter in these present mentioned expressed and reserved hath demised set and to farme letten and by these presents doth demise set and to farme let unto the said Robert Marsden and Edmund Marsden their Exectors and Administrators all that the Tenement or ffarme parcell of the Demeane of the Mannor of Chatsworth in the County of Derby and now in their own possession with the Housing there unto belonging and allso the severall parcells of Arrable Meadow and Pasture grounds there with all now used and enjoyed and hereafter named That is to say the great Ox pasture now divided into thirteene parts the Hough and streames alias Byflatt now in former parcells And also one other parcell of land called Bestly together with a parcell of land lying west of the River Darwen and commonly called the Byflatt
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Had a second thought - in the Marsden memoirs book it says that The Higher House of Oxclose was a farm behind where the kitchen gardens of Chatsworth are (or were I suppose, in 1914) The house was pulled down and rebuilt and the land added on to the park land. So there you have it .
Hope that helps.
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Hi All,
Re the Wills 1600 -1700, it is important to establish if the wills contain words to the effect
1. "I leave my freehold or possibly copyhold Ox Close etc" or
2. "I leave the rental of Ox Close etc"
If 1 then this cannot be the land at Chatsworth,
If 2 then it probably is the land at Chatsworth.
Obviously there has been correspondence between you which is not on this site.
Spendlove
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Hi,
Thanks once again for the info, I will pass it on, Carol is delighted with the help!
Copperbeech5
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Obviously there has been correspondence between you which is not on this site.
Spendlove
If there has been then I don't recall it. :)
I don't have complete will details so I can't tell how the Ox-close property is referred to.
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Just wanted to get back to this now I have a few minutes.
I have notes for the Will of Edmund Marsden, proved 1712.
It says that he was
Of Oxclose near Chatsworth. Edmund Snr, husbandman.
He left things to his wife Mary and various kids and their names match with this family group (bold means mentioned in the will):
1674 Thomas
1675 John
1679 Ann
1680 Richard
1686 Edmund
1683 Godfrey
1689 Robert
1690 Anna
1692 Joseph
I think that Godfrey is the one who left a will in 1744 leaving his farm at Oxclose to son Robert, and amongst other things two butchers shops in Baslow to his son Edmund. This is the family of Godfrey:
1715 Hannah
1717 Robert
1719 Edmund
1723 Joseph
1724 Mary (dy)
1726 Godfrey
1729 Elizabeth
So, assuming that this is the family the original question was about, I think there is little doubt they were from Oxclose, Chatsworth.
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Hi Copper Beech 5,
Have found a Marsden family tree on the Winster website www.winster-ancestry.com/jmarsden which might also interest you.
It shews the descendents of John MARSDEN of Birchover who married Alice KEELING at Bakewell All Saints on 27/03/1706. There are two conflicting dates of baptism for him (1) 1st April, 1676 and (2) 18th May, 1676, but both say he was born at Oxclose, Baslow, Derbyshire. He died aged 83 at Birchover and was interred at All Saints churchyard Youlgreave on 10/08/1759. Alice who was born in Youlgreave (where my KEELING ancestors come from) died at Birchover aged 59 and interrred at Youlgreave on 27/02/1744.
Margaret.
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Hi Gardener,
Thanks so much for your information, it is the same family, Carol also thanks you, for the info, an says she too has a copy of this will.
She wants to know if Ox Close is in Ox pasture, which she thinks is somewhere on the land between the Golden gate, and the Devonshire Arms ( as it is now) She thinks that the area was lost in Capability Browns Landscaping spree.... what do you think?
Thanks also to you Soughter, will tell, Carol it looks very interesting.
many thanks, to you both,
Copperbeech5
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Hi
Carol may well be right.
I just found this link
http://www.genuki.org.uk:8080/big/eng/DBY/Baslow/Perambulations.html
The grid ref which it gives for Beastley Gate seems to be half way between the Nurseries and the start of Baslow (on my map at least) and I wonder if that would be the plot of land called "parcell of land called Bestly " in the tenency agreement.
I sent an email to the person who gives that information so perhaps he will solve our problems ;)
After a quick glance at the pages connected to the above link it seems that the northern part of the Park was incorporated quite late so could easily have had a few farms on it earlier.
You could perhaps tell Carol that my gtgrandmother was a Marsden on both sides, as it were, and her parents both descended from John (married Alice), the son of Edmund of Oxclose.
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Hi Gardener,
Once again, thank you so much, I am passing the info on as soon as I get it! I gather that Carol has now written to the House (I'm not sure which one) that was the land owner at that time, so I will pass the info back to you if she gets anywhere!
In the mean time,
Thanks again!
Copperbeech5
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Hi Gardener,
Researching my wife's (and therefore children's) family history on the Marsden side. If we start just in Baslow (i.e. not going back to the Lancashire roots), my wife and children are descendant from Hugh Marsden and Alicia (aka Alice) Brough, who were married at St. Anne's Church ~ Nov. 1596.
Anyway, I'm particularly interested in learning about the "connections" between the various Marsdens and the Cavendish family - e.g. Oxclose being so close to/on the Chatsworth park grounds, another farm called "Parkgate or Park Gate" which was owned by Edmund Marsden (and perhaps his father Hugh?) which was somewhere near the Hunting Tower, and of most interest, the "family history" which notes that Hugh Marsden first came to Baslow "as part of the household of Sir William Cavendish" in the late 1500's.
Might you have direct access to the Marsden family genealogical memoirs that contains this specific reference, and might you have any further details regarding either Oxclose of Parkgate? We're in the Bakewell area and would be happy to do any "field research" to share with you and others if you're able to help point me in the right direction on some of these topics.
Thanks,
- Chris
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Hi Chris
If your wife's family is descended from Hugh and Alicia then we must be related in some way at least!
I have not done much on the Marsden's for a long time, got to the point where I had done the easy parts and was too far away to do any more. I collaborated with some other people and what I had I passed along so it is part of this family tree now
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=winster
I'll pm my email to you as I am not on rootschat very often just now :)
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I'm so glad I googled "Oxclose" - I'm just looking at the Marsden family and a birth record from Baslow which gives the residence as Oxclose. I'm going to follow up what people have said in this thread and see if we are the same family.
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I'm so glad I googled "Oxclose" - I'm just looking at the Marsden family and a birth record from Baslow which gives the residence as Oxclose. I'm going to follow up what people have said in this thread and see if we are the same family.
Bound to be related in some way!
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I have a Robert Marsden who married in 1703. At a pinch he could have been born 1689. It would have been legal to marry but "nobbut just!" as we say in Yorkshire ...
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I have a Robert Marsden who married in 1703. At a pinch he could have been born 1689. It would have been legal to marry but "nobbut just!" as we say in Yorkshire ...
:-)
This is the 1689 one?
1689 Robert son of Edmund Marston de Oxclose bp 10 July
There is an earlier one too
1679 Robert son of Robert Marstin of Oxclose bp 21 Sept
He would be a better age I think.
Working out connections in that bit of the Marsden tree is a bit tricky to say the least :-) There is an attempt to make sense of it here https://baslowhistory.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/marsden.pdf I don't know who the person behind it is, but at least it gives some idea of the scope!
I think that there were two brothers (Edmund and Robert) living at Oxclose and baptising children with similar names. I'd forgotten how tricky it was!
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@Gardener: thank you so much!
I've found my Robert on the tree you sent, the one born in 1679. He is the son of Robert at Higher House on their tree. The one I was looking at before was, as you say, the son of Edmund.
By the way, the https://baslowhistory.co.uk/ (https://baslowhistory.co.uk/)website is fascinating! Very interesting indeed, worth a look. I've emailed the owner, David Dalrymple-Smith.
Their tree shows five of the eight children I have for Robert Marsden by his first wife Elizabeth . The tree also shows a second wife Hannah, which is interesting. I hadn't picked up on that.
My ancestor is Joseph, b 1715/6. Where do you fit in?
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Hi "cousin"!
So you are descended from Robert at Higher House, and I'm from his brother Edmund at Lower House.
My gt-grandmother was Ellen Marsden, and no fewer than three of her grandparents were Marsdens - her two grandfathers were cousins, descended from John Marsden (and Alice). One of her grandmothers was also descended from John and Alice, but she was a more distant cousin.
John Marsden appears on that online tree as born 1676 and living at Birchover.
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So the Marsdens are one of your main lines. My two Derbyshire grandparents are Leachman and Johnson. My first Marsden is a five-times-great-grandmother Sarah, ancestor of the Johnsons.
One day I'm going to do a tour of Derbyshire and visit all these places. I know Chesterfield and I love Chatsworth but Birchover is now added to the list!