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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: anndra on Tuesday 04 November 08 20:23 GMT (UK)
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Looking for Peter McDonald, farmer/crofter b.c. 1790, Urquhart & Glenmoriston area. m. Isabella Muir b. 1791 Dores. 5 sons and one daughter. Eldest son Duncan b.1815 Glenmoriston, blacksmith and carpenter with several employees and apprentices.
Have timelined all McDonalds in U&G on OPR (almost 1000!) but can't find any family groups that would point me in the right direction.
Anyone have any suggestions?
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Anndra,
Go to this website and find the censuses. (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~sm00dmd/)
There are censuses from 1841 to 1901 there. (http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~sm00dmd/)
Your Peter is there as I have the complete censuses for Invermoriston and area from 1841 on in my system from that web site.
You may come across stories about people, namely Willack and Jeannack, who are two of the four children of my great-great-aunt who married Alexander MacDonald, the Smitty there in 1890 and had four children - Willack (Willie), Jeannack (Jeannie), Jessie and Duncan who lived in the Smitty on the A82 next to the General Wade Bridge all of their lives and never married.
Let me know if you have any difficulty.
Gruemach
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Thanks Gruemach
I have reviewed this website before and cannot find Peter. He must have died before 1841.
His wife Isabella is there (33 Achnanconeran) living with Archibald, her son who is recorded as Tenant. The entry is:-
archibald mcdonald 20 tenant (17)
isabella mcdonald 15 (49) (This is wrong and reads 45 on the OPR ms)
jane mcdonald 20 (21)
james mcdonald 15 joiner's apprentice (Working for his eldest brother, Duncan)
peter mcdonald 15 (16)
alex mcdonald 14
Actual age in brackets if different
Anndra
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Anndra,
Have you checked the records for the local graveyards for Peter or others?
Graham
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Thanks Graham.
I obviously have all of the SR deaths but haven't much pre this.
Anyone have a good link for MI in the area?
Anndra
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Anndra,
Nothing that I know of that is as extensive as with Sutherland...or what used to be for Sutherland. Keeping special interest websites going is a costly affair.
The best source for MIs is the Genealogy Department at the Inverness Library.
Genealogist Alistair MacLeod or his assistant Anne Fraser might be able to help you with a single inquiry. And you might with to try the Highland Family History Society in Inverness. Their Secretary takes in enquiries and tries her best to help out.
Once you are past a preliminary question to Alistair or Anne, you might have to pay someone. There is a small cemetery that I have visited at the junction of the A82 and the A887 in Invermoriston.
Here's a complete list in the Highlands.
Inverness AREA NAME ..........ADDRESS
Ardersier Cemetery ...........The East Church, Ardersier IV1
Auchterawe Cemetery ..........Fort Augustus PH32
Boleskin Cemetery ............Foyers IV1
Breaklish Cemetery ...........Dalcross, Ardersier IV1
Cannich Cemetery .............Cannich IV4
Chapel Yard ..................Chapel Street, Inverness IV1
Corriemony Cemetery ..........Balnain IV3
Croy Cemetery ................Adj. To Croy & Dalcross
........................................Church,A96, Croy IV1
Dalarossie Cemetery ..........Tomatin IV13
Dalchreichart Cemetery .......Invermoriston IV3 6YA
Daviot Cemetery ..............Daviot IV1 2EP
Dores Cemetery ...............Either side of Dores Parish
...........................................Church, Dores IV1
Driumtemple Cemetery .........Foyers IV1
Dunlichity Cemetery ..........Dunlichity
Eskedale Cemetery ............Kiltarlity IV4
Fort Augustus Cemetery........Jenkins Park,Fort William
.....................................Road,Fort Augustus PH32
Foyers Cemetery ..............Foyers IV1
Glenconvinth Cemetery ........Foxhole, Kiltarlity IV4
Greyfriars Cemetery ..........Friars Street, Inverness
Invermoriston Cemetery .......A82 Road,Invermoriston IV3 6YA
Kilchuimen Cemetery ..........Fort Augustus PH32
Kilmorack Cemetery ...........Kilmorack
Kilvean Cemetery .............Kilvean, Inverness
Kirkhill Cemetery ............Wardlaw Road, Kirkhill IV5
Kirkton Cemetery .............Bunchrew, Inverness
Kirkton Cemetery .............Ardersier, IV1
Lochend Cemetery .............Lochend IV3
Moy Cemetery .................Moy IV13 7YE
New Kilmore Cemetery .........Drumnadrochit IV3
Old High Church Yard .........Inverness
Old Kilmorack Cemetery .......Kilmorack
Old Kiltarlity Cemetery ......Kiltarlity IV4
Petty East Cemetery ..........Tornagrain, Inverness-shire
Petty West Cemetery ..........Dalcross, Ardersier IV1
St. Mary's Cemetery ..........Beauly IV4
Struy Cemetery ...............Struy IV4
Tomnacross Cemetery ..........Kiltarlity IV4
Tomnahurich Cemetery .........Glenurquhart Rd,Inverness IV3
I've given you the entire list as although the Macdonalds show up in several censuses, some of the family moved away from their family's original home.
Plus, you need detailed maps to understand where these places are.
Again, the Genealogy Department should be able to help you as well as the Archives, which is across the hall from the Reference Library and Genealogy Department.
Keep us posted on your successes or difficulties.
Cheers,
Gruemach
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Many thanks for this Gruemack, much appreciated.
I'll see what I can find from the various source.
Anndra
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Best of luck, Anndra.
You might have to hire someone to do some research once you get some direction from Alistair and/or Anne at the Inverness Library Genealogy Department.
Gruemach
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Hi Anndra,
I was fascinated by your comment about how you've timelined McDonalds from U&G. This conversation seems to focus on the McDonalds from the Invermoriston area. Mine are from Lewiston/Drumnadrochit (just up the Loch). I haven't found any connections between the two groups - yet. I suppose they're all related back there somewhere. Would be interested in seeing your timeline chart. Is it available online? I'm at a brick wall in Lewiston and looking for any possible leads/hints.
Stephen MacDonald, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, bigmac1x at sympatico dot ca
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Hi again Anndra,
I probably should have mentioned my McDonalds. Malco(l)m Mcdonald married his second wife Mary McKenzie in Lewiston in 1820 had a Son, Murdo Mcdonald in 1821 and another Son (pretty sure) William Hughin(?) Mcdonald in 1825. Have no idea where Malcolm and Mary were from or who their Parents were. Murdo moved to the Black Isle and married Chrisitan Urquhart in 1846 and raised a family in Cullicudden. William Hughin (?) I have no idea what happened to him.
Any help with Malcolm, Mary or William (or Malcolm's frist Wife, and kids), would be appreciated.
Stephen in Toronto
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The McDonalds of U&G didn't seem to mix much with the McDonalds of Lewiston/Drumnacdrochit, or even the MCDonnells of U&G for that matter!
Have sent you an e-mail with the timeline so keep an eye out for it in case your spam filter bins it.
Good luck.
Anndra
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I also am very interested in any information you might have on the
Malco(l)m McDonald born Glen Urquhart, who married Mary McKenzie in Lewiston, Glen Urquhart, as a WIDOWER in 1820....mentioned in message from Stephen MacDonald (who is my husband's second cousin once removed). You mentioned to him, that you were sending an email to him, giving timeline, etc. Was this sent offline as I couldn't see it., and I don't think he has received it, as of today's date; Stephen and I are in continuous contact.
We know of two of their children, Murdoch McDonald, b.1820-1, Glen Urquhart, and William Hughin McDonald b. 1825, Petty.
Ruth MacLeod, in Australia
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Hullo Anndra
Peter MacDonald was my great great great grandfather and was from Invermoriston (I'm from Invermoriston myself). I found out from an old letter that his father's name was Archibald. I know quite a lot about his son Donald MacDonald, my great great grandfather.
Here are Donald MacDonald's gravestone details.
Erected to the memory of Mary Gray who departed this life on the 5th March 1831 aged 60 years. The beloved wife of Donald MacDonald carpenter, Glenmoriston. Also of the said Donald MacDonald who died 28th November 1867 aged 82 years. She is not dead but sleepeth. Matthew ix 24 verse.
And his household details from the 1851 census
Schedule 26
donald mcdonald head married 34 carrier urquhart
mary mcdonald wife married 31 urquhart
ann mcdonald daughter 4 scholar urquhart
peter mcdonald son 1 urquhart
christy gary servant unmarried 34 house servant urquhart26
I've attached Archibald's family tree. Have a look at my website for more info (www.glenmoriston.org.uk) which has got census and cemetery data or get in touch with me at sm00dmd at uhi dot ac dot uk.
Donald MacDonald
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Hi Donald,
Thanks for the background. I've never been able to find any connection between my Mcdonalds in Lewiston and yours in Invermoriston - and it's only 10 miles away! There's probably something but I'll bet it's many generations earlier than I've been able to get back to which is Malcom (Malcolm) who married Mary McKenzie in Lewiston in 1820 and had 2 kids there. Haven't been able to find either of their birth records so have no idea if born there or migrated from somewhere else. Don't even know if Malcom had siblings in the area.
One question for you (or anyone else who might know) - Malcom and Mary's second Son was named William Hughin Mcdonald b.1825. This is the first time I've come across a name like Hughin. Any ideas as to whether they were just being creative with Hugh or maybe Hughin was a surname of an ancestor? His birth record is attached. Strange - Mary's first name is missing (although they left a space for it).
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I recently found out that William McDonald born 1848 in Glenurquhart to William McDonald & Catherine McDonald nee McDonald married Elizabeth H Robb in June of 1885, a cousin of mine. William on his marriage record is given as a widower & Elizabeth as a widow. He is also given as a seaman in the RN on HMS Clyde. Has anyone on this list any data that may be of use to me as I have been unable to find/prove his parents via census returns or find any data for William. His parents names come from his marriage record.
His parents were married, I believe, 3 July 1844 at Urquhart & Glenmoriston, data from a Scotland's People record
Bill & Rosie Adams in Sri Lanka
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Some time ago I timelined all of the McDonalds of Invermoriston from 1732, the first OPR record, to 1854. William and Catherine have two children recorded, Alexander 09 Sep 1840, and Eliza 30 Mar 1843. There are many years without records but you may be able to find a family naming convention link. If you would like a copy of the .xls file drop me a pm and I'll attach it to the reply.
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Dear Anndra,
Thank you for the prompt response to my query and the very kind offer of the data. I would be very pleased to have the data and I assume by PM you mean my e-mail address. It is (*)
Thank you in advance for the data. You have already given me clues to help my searching by giving me the names of Williams siblings.
Bill & Rosie in a hot & humid Sri Lanka
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Dear Anndra,
I have been searching for my McDonald Ancestors in the Urquhart and Glenmoriston area of Scotland, and have been led to the Rootschat website. I realise I may be a bit late to join the party, but I noticed in one of your posts from last year that you mentioned you had catalogued all the McDonalds living in this area.
I am currently searching for an Alexander McDonald who was an Ag. Lab or Shepherd, married to Catherine Sinclair. In the 1841 Census he was listed as being resident at Blairie. By 1851 he was deceased as Catherine was living with her son. Alexander was born c.1796 and must have married Catherine prior to 1821. Together they had 7 children, Margaret (b.1821), Archibald (b.1822), Ann (b.1824), William (1829), Alexander (b.1834), Mary (b.1835) and Helen (b.1839).
I was wondering if you happened to know whether there was an OPR record for Alexander's death, and if you know if there is any further information regarding this family around this time?
Any help or information would be most grateful.
MacLost
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Further to my (and Stephen from Canada) earlier posts re McDonalds from Lewiston, and Urquhart & Glenmoriston area, particularly of MALCOLM McDONALD, I have had a small 'breakthrough' in my research and am wondering if I am on the right track? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I have traced Malcolm McDonald : born as a twin, with John, 16 June, 1768 Tulloch, Dingwall, parents Alexander McDonald/Betty Reid; and 4 more children = Janet, Kathrine, Joseph and Jean, all born at Tulloch, Dingwall.
I then discovered MALCOLM McDONALD of Bunloit's first marriage to Janet, dau. of Wm. McDonald & Margaret Sinclair, Moy. Janet McDonald was born 16.3.1760 Bellie parish, Fochaber. Children of Malcolm/Janet McDonald were: 1. Grizel b. 18.4.1789 in (indecipherable - G'end?), Parish Urq/Glenm. to "Malcolm McDonald, Wright, and Janet; 2. William b.1.12.1791 in Moy, Urq/Glenm. DIED 15.3.1804, Fochaber, Bellie; 3. Isabel b. 26.6.1794 in Moy, Urq./Glenm.; 4. Barbra born 2/5/1796 in Moy, ditto;5. Ann born 18.19.1801, in Moy, ditto. All children born in Moy but parish of Urquhart/Glenmoriston.
Did this parish extend beyond Inverness at that time?
I haven't been able to trace first wife Janet McDonald's death, but Malcolm remarried as a WIDOWER in Lewiston (as stated in earlier posts) to Mary McKENZIE from the Parish of Ferrintosh 1.1.1820; cannot find any definite record of her birth (IGI gives her date abt.1800 but they give her husband Malcolm's birth as c.1795). Children of this marriage were: Murdoch (he is a confirmed definite person) b.23.1.1812, Lewiston, Urq./Glenmor. I know his following details - such as marriage, death, kids, etc.
Second child was William Hughin McDonald b.3.6.1825, Lewiston, ditto. Cannot find any further info. on him altho. there are numerous Williams who could be he. 1881 Census lists a William (58) b. c.1825, Parish of Petty, Carpenter empl. 1 girl and a Jane (74) shown as his wife!and an Ann McDonald shown as visitor. Anyone have any suggestions please? Ruth in Australia.
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Another Glenurquhart MacDonald was John, a house carpenter, from near Borlum Bridge. John MacDonald's daughter, Margaret married James MacKintosh, who was born in Lewiston in 1799, on 31/1/1828. James was a Tailor in Fort Augustus at that time and later decribed 'of Bunoich'.
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Thanks for that, John. To get off the topic subject completely, I notice you have McLeod and Chisholm in your tree interests. My husband John MacLeod (McLeod) has Chisholms in his ancestry, originally from Kiltarlity, Inverness-shire, also his McLeods date back to Isle of Raasay, and later in Inverness. Any connections there?
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Hi Donald,
One question for you (or anyone else who might know) - Malcom and Mary's second Son was named William Hughin Mcdonald b.1825. This is the first time I've come across a name like Hughin. Any ideas as to whether they were just being creative with Hugh or maybe Hughin was a surname of an ancestor?
I think Ewen is the gaelic form of Hugh, so perhaps this is a hybrid. There were a few 'Hugh MacKenzies' around Glenurquhart. My relative Isabella McIntosh (of Lewiston) married a Hugh MacKenzie in the Glen in 1827. The Hughin may come from the MacKenzie side of the family.
John Mc
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My husband John MacLeod (McLeod) has Chisholms in his ancestry, originally from Kiltarlity, Inverness-shire, also his McLeods date back to Isle of Raasay, and later in Inverness. Any connections there?
My McLeod connection is one of my enduring mysteries, details on the link below,
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~johnmc46lc/William1.html
Your reply was rapid. thanks John
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In reply to Maclost,
re Alexander MacDonald and Catherine Sinclair - I've just been researching this line for my Dad's cousin - her direct line leads to them through their son Archibald b1822.
Cheers, Rhoda
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Hi Anndra,
Are you still around? I live in Australia and my name is Malcolm McDonald.
I believe am descended from Archibald Peter McDonald and Isabella Elizabeth Muir both born around 1790 and lived in the Glenmoriston area ?
I would be very interested in your timelining (xls file) of MacDonalds in U&G, but cannot PM before doing 3 posts!!!
Regards,
Malcolm McDonald
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I have identified nine veterans of the Revolutionary War named McDonell who settled in Canada who may have been born in Glenmoriston.
They all gave written evidence to the Loyalist Claims Commission for property they had left behind in the Mohawk, Delaware and Susquehanna valleys of New York province.
We have quite a lot of information on their descendants here in Canada.
But there is almost nothing about their ancestry, which was clearly in Glenmoriston -- around Inverwick, Dundreggan and Tomachraiskie.
A father of at least one of these emigrants may have been a William McDonald, but that's the only indication we have so far.
Many of the them inter-married with Grants from Glenmoriston, who were also part of the three or more voyages -- two in 1773 (including the Pearl), one in 1774 -- that brought them to America, then later (starting in 1775 for some, as late as 1784 for others) to Canada.
They were almost certainly farmers on the wades of Aonach and Duldreggan. One or more may have been sons of Alexander McDonald/McDonell, who held the tack of Dalchreichart or Duldreggan up to the '45, was one of the Seven (or Eight) Men of Glenmoriston, and died in 1751.
One of them may be John McDonald/McDonell, alias Campbell, another of the Eight Men, who apparently emigrated to America in the period 1773-75.
This John McDonald/McDonell apparently married Elspy Grant. He may have been born as early as 1715. (John McDonell of Ballroom -- see below -- clearly describes himself as too old to serve in the British army during the revolutionary war.)
The dates of birth would likely have been between 1725 and 1755.
Here are the names and identifiers, as we have them:
John McDonell of Dolegreggen (definitely Dundreggan)
John McDonell of Inveroucht (probably Inverwick)
John McDonell of Tomachraiskie
John McDonell of Baldrom
John McDonell of Auchingleen (possibly Achlain)
Hugh McDonell (1750-1836) of Glenmoriston
-- this Hugh McDonell married a daughter of Alexander McSorley Cameron, also of Glenmoriston
Duncan McDonell of Glenmoriston (indicated on claim)
Roderick McDonell (1742-1809) of Glenmoriston (indicated on claim; gravestone reads "a native of Glenmorisson"; died on May 11th 1809)
Donald McDonell of Glenmoriston (indicated on claim)
Anndra, would your database have any birth or baptism information for these farmers, or the names of their parents? I would be hugely grateful for any assistance you can provide.
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These McDonells of Glenmoriston were obviously related to several branches of the Grant family that also settled in Glengarry, Canada.
At least two of these settlers (and possibly several more) were children of Angus/Aeneas Grant (1702-79), of Duldreggan.
Others were children of John Grant (born 1707), of Craskie.
At the same a son of Patrick Grant (1701-86), 7th of Glenmoriston, was (starting 1792) a member of the Legislative and Executive Councils of the Province of Upper Canada.
Another famous figure, Big John 'the Robber' Grant, who returned from exile in Bermuda, was apparently also a loyalist, though he may have died before reaching Upper Canada.
These were all close relatives of Black Peter/Patrick Grant of Glenmoriston -- one the famous Eight Men who protected the Pretender.
A daughter of either Aeneas Grant of Duldreggan or of John Grant of Craskie was apparently married to John Macdonald of Dulreichart, who was the leader of this group of Eight Men of Glenmoriston.
John Macdonald of Dulreichart apparently also emigrated to America in 1774-75, and it is possible that he or his children were among the original settlers after 1784 in Charlottenburgh Township, Glengarry County, Upper Canada.
In other words, the Grants of Glenmoriston
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To pick up where I left off:
...the Grants of Glenmoriston and their McDonell/McDonald, Cameron, Ferguson, Chisholm and other friends, kin and relations from Glenmoriston were one of the most prominent groups of Loyalist settlers along the River Raisin in early eastern Ontario.
In the churchyard of St. Andrew's United in Williamstown the graves of Roderick McDonell (died 1809), Donald McDonell and others clearly indicate they were born in Glenmoriston, which they also spelled 'Glenmorrison'.
would be grateful for any birth, baptismal, death or marriage records available from Glenmoriston covering the period 1700-1775.
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Hi Anndra,
I was fascinated by your comment about how you've timelined McDonalds from U&G. This conversation seems to focus on the McDonalds from the Invermoriston area. Mine are from Lewiston/Drumnadrochit (just up the Loch). I haven't found any connections between the two groups - yet. I suppose they're all related back there somewhere. Would be interested in seeing your timeline chart. Is it available online? I'm at a brick wall in Lewiston and looking for any possible leads/hints.
Stephen MacDonald, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, bigmac1x at sympatico dot ca
Hello Stephen,
Just wondering where and when your MacDonald line settled in Canada?
Peter MacDonald (Canada)
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Quite astonishing the Loyalist sympathies of these folk when one considers the atrocities committed on their forefathers back in Scotland.
Skoosh.
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Quite astonishing the Loyalist sympathies of these folk when one considers the atrocities committed on their forefathers back in Scotland.
Skoosh.
Religious issues for Catholics played a piece in this for Scottish Catholics:
http://www.cchahistory.ca/journal/CCHA1981/McGivern.html
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Thanks for that explanation Peter. The sons/grandsons of forfeit clan chiefs ingratiated themselves with the government by raising regiments from their former lands to fight the French. No sooner than they had these lands restored (to much celebration), they set about replacing their people with sheep, as per MacDonald of Boisdale in your interesting piece!
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Thanks for that explanation Peter. The sons/grandsons of forfeit clan chiefs ingratiated themselves with the government by raising regiments from their former lands to fight the French. No sooner than they had these lands restored (to much celebration), they set about replacing their people with sheep, as per MacDonald of Boisdale in your interesting piece!
Bests,
Skoosh.
Hello Skoosh,
I also don't fully understand the Loyalist sympathies, however I would imagine for many military service was one of the few ways to survive at the time for many. Further, to receive free lands in Canada, Highlanders/Scots would be required to swear an oath to the crown to receive granted land. I believe much of the talk pertaining to the Loyalist sympathies of the Highlanders/Scots is more of a romance of the period through their descendants. Just my opinion though.
All the best,
Peter
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Peter and Skoosh,
Land was certainly an important part of the Highlander Loyalist calculation. But this factor does not fully explain why they would leave lots they had partially cleared in New York province in order to fight for the crown that had, after all, defeated them in 1746, ravaged their property, deprived them of language, clothing and traditions.
Some did stay behind in America, even in the frontier counties of New York. Many more joined the American side in North Carolina and elsewhere. But most of the Highlanders in Tryon, Charlotte and Delaware Counties joined the Loyalist cause for three reasons, in my view:
- loyalty to traditional leaders, in this case the tacksmen who had organized their emigration in 1773-75, as well as Sir William and Sir John Johnson themselves, who were their landlords, benefactors and unquestioned community leaders;
- loyalty to the crown, which was of course an article of faith for Jacobites, and after 1760 came to be identified with the 'Patriot King' George III, who had relaxed some of the post-Culloden restrictions and made the Earl of Bute, a Tory Scot, his first minister; and
- fear of repression, intolerance and abuse at the hands of the revolutionaries whom the Highlanders in New York identified first and foremost with New England Puritans who were hostile to their religion (mainly Catholic), homeland (North Britain) and politics (clan-based, honour-bound Jacobite and Tory).
Best regards,
Chris
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Hello to Chris_River Raisen,
Donald Grant was my 5th GGF and lived on the U.E.L. land 13th lot of 2nd concession SBRR, a few of us have been studying his family for about 8 years now and find he is: Donald Grant Senior b1744-d1806 Craskie, Weaver, came in 1773 on the Pearl to Sir John Johnson's land in NY, KRRNY fought under Alex McD's unit....depending on the records married either Marg or Nancy McD (or both) and we know his Y DNA goes to the Chiefly line.
A couple of us have done pretty deep dives into the literature re: who his father might be, but no definitive records appear to exist. From the work of Peter Grant NZ we know there are some documented members of the Craskie line that appear in official documents, but what does become obvious is how much we don't know. The following is to relay what we have found out, not to rebut anything in particular.
A lot of people (both dead and alive) identify John/John Roy Grant Craskie b1707 as DG 1744's father. I have contacted all of them (if alive, sure i'd like to talk to the dead, but such is not the case) None of them have any real records or documentation that would cement this relationship.
Various Clan Grant sites have a mishmash of possible trees, mostly based off of " The Ancestors and Descendants of Major Alpin". Other inputs from John E. Grant, Francis Ross McDonald, Evelyn Goulet, Father John and others through time, trying to piece this family together. It is obvious that they are basing their trees on prior attempts, but none of them state they have any documentation or records to buttress their opinions and many are gracious to be corrected, if something were to rise up from the graves.
re: John/John Roy Craskie b1707, it is unknown who his parents are and actually somewhat indeterminate as to his real relation to Craskie. There were a number of John Grant prisoners taken post-Culloden, many from Glenmorriston. In the prisoner records John Craskie Farmer was age 40 when taken prisoner in 1746 yielding b1706, some may have confused his DOB as age 40 at the year of Transport to Barbados in 1747, thus 1707.
There was also a John Roy Grant Aberdeen Wheelwright, he didn't get transported, but that was the only John Roy Grant in the prisoner record that I think people may have conflated John b1706 with. Also, in the Prisoner listing there are plenty of other Grants listed as "There" in Craskie probably hiding there after the battle So plenty of ???s as to who were really living there before Culloden, let alone in the "OF Craskie" lineage.
When we look at the documented people associated with Craskie, things become more sketchy and a number of possible father lineages begin to emerge. See attached tree.
In records, the wadset seems to pass from Patrick "the elder" b1671 to his eldest son Alexander "the Younger" b1710. we also know Alex b1710 had a younger brother Patrick bca 1712-15. This we believe to be Patrick "Black Peter" "of Craskie" (who never married and some have mistaken trees that actually need to go to another Patrick/Peter from this area, born a bit later. There is also an outside chance that Black Peter did father a child (but not married) on the Isle of Skye after he returned from the siege of Quebec).
Alex died in 1743 and Patrick probably inherited the rights to the wadset at that point.
So now we have to exclude John/John Roy b1706/7 from THIS Craskie lineage as he would have been the eldest child and probable holder of the wadset not Alex b1710.
Alex's children were known up until his death in 1743 and it is certainly possible he could have fathered Donald b1744, but there is no known record of that.
This Alex's father Pat b1671 had a brother John of Craskie (at least according to one often cited source) that appeared to have fathered Isobel who married Patrick Grant 8th of Glenmorriston. There is some thought that this John is actually Pat b1671, as there are no further documented references to him.
Assuming John lived, we have at least two brothers "of Craskie" that had known offspring and there may have been more undocumented possible progenitors for John b1706/7 Craskie....Let alone any number of unknown, undocumented progenitors that could have fathered Donald b1744 Craskie Weaver of 13/2 South Branch River Raisen.
Donald b1744's male children's names are Duncan, Lewis, Archibald and Donald. No Patrick, Alexander or John tip-of-the-hat to the previous generation is seen, so he may have descended from another part of the Grant's of Glenmorriston tree and listed Craskie in the records as the last place he lived (as was also a custom at the time).
Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this, as I am tiring of listening to myself, LOL.
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Here is a bit of history on the UEL's and a list of all the UEL's in the Appendix.
http://www.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.02561/6?r=0&s=1
Don
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Thank you for the book link Don, was quickly able to find Donald Grant Sen (with Crosky spelling for Craskie) and his son Duncan. Also saw the other Donald Grant Jun., which is not directly related to my Sen. just a naming convention to differentiate between the two as they signed up for service.
Also found my other 5th GGF William Buy Cameron who was captured and was to be hung before he was pardoned by the Governor. He also made it to Charlottenburgh. I probably have some McD links as well, just too many of the same name to know for sure.
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Thanks for all this, Kevin! I've also read your 'Version 6 Craskie Line' on ancestry.ca: it's all very interesting and compelling.
Sorry for my delay in responding -- needles to say, I do not check this site often.
I agree that we do not yet know who the parents of Donald Grant of Craskie (1744-1806) might have been.
The fact that an elder son was called Duncan may, as you say, be a hint, although there is evidence Donald Grant of Craskie ('the weaver') also had elder sons named John and Alexander, who may or may not have come to Canada, and whose years of birth are unconfirmed.
In the Loyalist claims, evidence is given in 1788 by a 'John McDonell of Baldrom' (which I take to be Ballintrom on your map, just east of Craskie) who says that his son and son-in-law went 'at first' -- i.e. joined Sir John Johnson's regiment in 1776.
These two are almost certainly John Ban McDonell (1743-1831), who settled on lot 9 in Glen Road (on the south side of the south branch of the River Raisin) in Chralottenburgh, and Donald Grant of Craskie (1744-1806) who as you know settled on lot 13 of South Branch Road in the same township.
One hypothesis is that Donald Grant of Craskie was married -- probably as a second wife -- to John Ban's sister.
Baptismal records from the Dutch Reformed Church at Fonda on the Mohawk show that Donald and Nancy (or Anna) Grant had a son Donald (born April 26th, 1778) and a daughter Mary (baptized October 28 1780, aged ten weeks) in Fonda, near their lands on the Kingsborough patent.
In this case, if Donald Grant of Craskie the weaver (1744-1806) had a wife named Margaret, as is often claimed in the literature, she probably died before 1778 -- a conclusion the oral record (documented but without written death records) seems to support.
A second hypothesis is that John McDonell of Baldrom's wife was a sister to Donald Grant of Craskie's parent, though this seems somewhat less likely.
My own reading of your analysis and that of John E. Grant and others (Goulet, Gressel, Young etc) is that there are currently two plausible options for the identity of Donald Grant of Craskie's father. He could be Alexander Grant (1710-43), younger of Craskie, the probable brother of Patrick (Black Peter) Grant (1715->61), or he could be a son of John Roy Grant (b 1705), who is often given as the brother of Isobel Grant (b 1702), who in 1720 married Patrick Grant VIII of Glenmoriston.
One issue that needs to be resolved is whether, as John E Grant and others have claimed, John Grant of Craskie (1663/71 - <1715) was also 'twice married' -- once in 1685 to Christian Grant (who was, controversially, his uncle's wife) with whom he may have had Patrick Grant (alive in 1737), 'elder of Craskie', and secondly around 1700 to Janet McDonell of the Cullachie family, with whom he has Isobel (born 1702) and John Roy (born 1705).
As for the distinction between John Grant of Craskie, who served in the Seven Years' War as a soldier in the 42nd regiment and subsequently received a Chelsea pension, and an Ensign Peter Grant, who was born somewhat later, I cannot comment because I have not seen the research carried out by our New Zealand colleague.
If you are willing to share this with me, my email is chris@chrisalexander.ca.
TBC 1/2
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As you may know, Commodore Alexander Grant (1734-1813) of Detroit and later Sandwich in Upper Canada was the first Grant of Glenmoriston known to have settled in what became Upper Canada.
He had also served in the Seven Years' War -- as a lieutenant in the 77th regiment -- but became involved in the Provincial Marine and commercial shipping after the war:
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/grant_alexander_5E.html
He always referred to John Grant (1749-1817) of Lachine, one of the putative sons of Black Peter and Janet Grant of Duldreggan who came to Canada, as his nephew and even (because the latter's parents had died) his 'adopted son'. This John Grant grew up partly in the Commodore's home; they subsequently had a close and successful business association.
The most plausible connection between them is through Alexander Grant of Glenmoriston's aunt, Isobel Grant (born 1696), who married Alexander Grant of Shewglie (died 1746). Their daughter Hannah Grant (born 1717) married Aeneas Grant (1702-79) of Duldreggan; she was a first cousin of Alexander Grant (1734-1813) of Glenmoriston. Hannah and Aeneas Grant's daughter Janet Grant of Duldreggan (born 1736, died after 1766) was almost the same age as Commodore Alexander Grant (1734-1813) and the mother of John Grant of Lachine. It is not difficult to see how the older officer might have come to see the younger relative as his 'nephew'.
It would be great to continue this exchange directly: once again, my email is above. If you are interested, I will send you my summary of the Grants of Glenmoriston who settled in Upper Canada before 1790, once it is updated.
I find it useful to organize those who settled here into confirmed family groupings, as follows:
(i) John 'Ian Mor na Catheran' Grant (1725-83), rumoured to have been a natural son of Ian a' Chragain, with his son Angus 'Ballagooey' Grant (also mentioned in the Fonda records) and other children;
(ii) Commodore Alexander Grant (1734-1813) of Glenmoriston and his large family;
(iii) Donald Grant of Craskie (1744-1806) and family, including his connections to John McDonell of Baldrom, who was by all evidence older even than John Grant 'the Big Robber';
(iv) John Grant (1749-1817) of Lachine, his siblings and children;
(v) John Grant (1737-1802) of Duldreggan, who only arrived in Canada in 1786 with many children; and
(vi) many others for whom we have documentation, often from their service in the American war, some connected to these preceding five branches, and others not.
You are absolutely right that things got confusing in Glenmoriston after 1745-16; with so many farmers transported or making themselves scarce (and some killed), it was natural for people to come from further east (in Knoydart) or north (Glen Urquhart) to take over remaining farms.
This happened again after the 1771-75 period, when many more (including most of those listed in the groupings above) emigrated on the Pearl and other vessels.
The first census records for Glenmoriston (from 1841) only establish whether the individual was born 'in county' -- meaning in Inverness-shire -- which most were. But the 1851 records break the place of birth down still further, showing that very few by that time (after several waves of displacement) had actually been born in Glenmoriston:
http://www.glenmoriston.org.uk/Glenmoriston/Census/1851%20Census.php
But the Glenmoriston, Craskie and Duldreggan/Duldreggan families were distinctive, as were the structures of some of the families that came with them; by sharing analysis and pooling our evidence and other resources, we should be able to reach some sound conclusions down the road.
Best regards,
Chris
End 2/2
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Chris,
Thank you very much for your robust response.
For the record, t and is available to anyone researching this group of western Glenmoriston Grants and the associated MacDonalds
You seem to be very knowledgeable about this dusty corner of Scottish Genealogy and I look forward to collaborating with you. Many have gone before us trying to figure out this Craskie family only to fall into what I refer to as the cumberland gap. As it was under his charge that the Glenmoriston records from the Culloden time period were destroyed. Hopefully, we can do better. LOL
And yes, of course I am interested in your "summary of the Grants of Glenmoriston who settled in Upper Canada before 1790" and I suspect you have a McDonald version of the same. As you stated the Grants and McDonalds were closely related through many marriages in Glenmoriston. So studying both is very helpful.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Chris. The 8th Chief of Glengarry Donald McDonell married daughter of 9th Chief Clanranald MacDonald, and their sons headed the McDonell lines we still refer to as Leek, Collachie, Aberchalder, Lundie, and Ardnabie; and their daughter Catherine McDonell married Duncan Grant b. 1630 d. 1730 who was 1st Grant of Duldraeggan Glenmoriston and his greatgrandson Aeneas/ Angus Grant b. 1702 d. 1779 was declared Duncan's Heir at Law circa 1733, and his son John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737 d. 1802 inherited Duldraeggan from him but emigrated in 1785 arriving in Glengarry Canada 1786 where he acquired Lots 25&26 SSSBRR.
Aeneas/ Angus' younger brother John Roy Grant b. abt. 1704- 1707, would be Transported to Caribbean after Culloden, and probably did not return, but he fathered Alexander, Elspeth [who married John McDonell one of the Good Men of Glenmoriston] and Donald Grant Sr. of Craskie [the Weaver] [all these kids settled South Branch Road Charlottenburg Glengarry Canada].
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Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan b. 1702 d.1779, greatgrandson of Duncan Grant b. 1630 d. 1730, Aeneas married Hannah Grant b. 1717 d. 1801.
Their children :
Janet b. 1734 d. 1735
Isabella Duldraeggan Grant Fraser b. 1735 d. ?? buried St Andrews West Ont.
Janet Duldraeggan Grant b. 1736 d. 1766
John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737 d. 1802 buried St Andrews Church Williamstown Ont.
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Isabella Duldraeggan Grant b. 1735 married Simon Fraser Sr. who died in jail, at Albany NY in 1779. His parents were William Fraser of Culbokie and Mary / Margaret McDonell of Ardnabie [a sister of my Captain John Dhu McDonell VI Ardnabie]. Isabella was mother of Simon Fraser Jr. the Canadian Explorer.
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Janet Duldraeggan Grant b. 1736 d. 1766 married a Peter Grant who I identify as of Isle of Skye, where he fathered several illegitimate kids including John Grant of Lachine d. 1817 Montreal; I think he was probably raised with Janet's kids [John's half siblings] at Duldraeggan.
Janet's kids were:
Alexander "Brewer" Grant who married Sarah Claridge, lived at Williamstown.
Peter Grant of Lachine [half brother of John Grant of Lachine] fur trader.
Donald / Duncan Grant, also a fur trader.
Helena/ Henny Grant married Mr. Clark a school teacher, they also came to Canada.
Mary Grant remained in Scotland to care for grandmother Hannah Grant.
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John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737 d. 1802, inherited Wadset of Duldraeggan when father Aeneas / Angus died 1779. John fathered illegitimate son Alexander Alex Grant b. 1756 d.1851 buried at Williamstown. John then married Catherine Grant and had 8 kids with her, but she apparently died before they emigrated in 1785 arriving in Glengarry Ont. 1786 where he acquired Lots 25&26 SSSBRR. Son Major Angus Grant never married, and died in India. John married a Mary McIntyre in Montreal 1787, and had 8 kids with her, the last Alpin Grant b. 1802.
Another son was Honourable Alexander Grant of L'Orignal Ont., where he ran a fur trading post called Duldraeggan Hall. As mentioned he was 1st cousins with Simon Fraser Jr. and they married sisters, daughters of Allen McDonell of Mattila. Also 1st cousin to Peter Grant of Lachine, after John Grant of Lachine died 1817, his son Robert partnered with Spanish John McDonell's son John Jr. [Le Pret] and this Honourable Alexander Grant of L'Orignal to run that Lachine Shipping Co.
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If I am correct that Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan b. 1702 and John Roy Grant b. 1704 - 1707, are brothers, then John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737, and Donald Grant Sr. [the Weaver of Craskie] Lot 13 South Branch Road aka SBR, are 1st cousins, and Y -DNA from these 2 GRANT lines should bare this out. Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant.
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As mentioned previously, my Captain [at Culloden 1746] John Dhu McDonell VI Ardnabie was the uncle of Simon Fraser Sr, so John's sons were his 1st cousins. My Allen Bhuide McDonell b. 1730 was the eldest son and Roderick Rory McDonell b.1732 was 2nd. Both Roderick Rory McDonell and Simon Fraser Sr. married women named Isabella Grant [Simon's wife is from my Duldraeggan Grant line].
Roderick Rory shared W 1/2 Lot 19 SBR with his son John Roy McDonell Sr. who married Nancy Grant daughter of Donald Grant Sr. the Weaver Lot 13 SBR.
I think this Donald Grant Sr. and Roderick Rory McDonell, along with Captain KRRNY Spanish John
McDonell of Scotus, submitted a joint petition to the British during the Rev War, to take the fight back into NY to relieve their families. I believe this led to the Burning of the Valleys NY.
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Recently, we have found two sons of my John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737 d. 1802 Lots 25&26 SSSRR, they lived at L'Orignal Upper Canada Longueil Twp. They are Honourable Alexander Grant of L'Orignal who was a Judge and Member of Parliament, operated Fur Trading Post called Duldraeggan Hall, and his brother Peter Grant of L'Orignal [probably also lived at Duldraeggan Hall]. This Peter died 1811 [both these brothers buried at CASSBURN Cemetery], and brother Honourable Alexander produced Peter's WILL at Montreal in 1812 [WILL listed piddling sums to surviving sisters and illegitimate children], the bulk of monies, to go to Honourable Alexander. I think the Courts were Suspect of this WILL, and forwarded it to London England, where it was processed in 1817. Other researchers have misread this WILL of Peter Grant of Longueil Upper Canada, and placed him erroneously at Longueil Lower Canada [near Montreal].
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Part 1 of 2
Just some push back on a couple assertions made above.
In one entry, it states:
"Aeneas/ Angus' younger brother John Roy Grant b. abt. 1704- 1707, would be Transported to Caribbean after Culloden, and probably did not return, but he fathered Alexander, Elspeth [who married John McDonell one of the Good Men of Glenmoriston] and Donald Grant Sr. of Craskie [the Weaver] [all these kids settled South Branch Road Charlottenburg Glengarry Canada]"
and in another entry it states:
"If I am correct that Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan b. 1702 and John Roy Grant b. 1704 - 1707, are brothers, then John Duldraeggan Grant b. 1737, and Donald Grant Sr. [the Weaver of Craskie] Lot 13 South Branch Road aka SBR, are 1st cousins, and Y -DNA from these 2 GRANT lines should bare this out. Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant.
In the second quotation, it states that the above author is making an assertion (not readily determined in the 1st statement) which was born from his interpretive reading of the records and writings available to him, fair enough. But there are other interpretations of this lineage that bear the same consideration.
One such interpretation was one held by the author's late cousin Francis Ross McDonald (sp). In a letter from him to Evelyn Goulet, he indicates that he had come to understand that John Grant OF Craskie had two wives, the 1st wife leading to the birth of Patrick "the elder" OF Craskie b1671 (court record indicated age 50 in 1721).
Another court document (CS) indicates that Patrick "the elder" b1671 OF Craskie had two sons (at least) Alexander "the younger" OF Craskie b1710 and that Alex had a younger brother Patrick (assumed to be Black Peter, bca1715) who was also titled as "OF Craskie" at a point in his life as indicated in the literature.
It is my assertion that the Wadset for Craskie flowed from John "twice married" OF Craskie, to his 1st born son Patrick b1671 "the elder" OF Craskie, then to his 1st born son Alexander b1710 OF Craskie, and then once again upon Alex's untimely death in 1743 (33 at age of death per graveyard inscription), finally (?), it passed to his younger brother Patrick "Black Peter" OF Craskie.
The Ross/Goulet Letter continues to describe...John Grant OF Craskie also had a 2nd son named John of Craskie by a 2nd wife. This John of Craskie "father of Isobel" is assumed to also be the father of the “Prisoner” John Craskie age 40 (b1707) Farmer as indicated in the Prisoner records.
It makes sense that this John was not from the "OF Craskie" wadset inheritance lineage, in that he would have been 1st born in 1707 instead of Alex b1710, so he probably was a close cousin.
This places “prisoner” John b1707 farming alongside his cousin Patrick "black peter" OF Craskie who was also known to farm when not engaged in battle. This John b1707 would have been "of" Craskie.
In this piece, "OF" indicaties a stronger state of relationship to the locale "one who holds the wadest of Craskie" versus the diminutive "of" being a lesser stature, non- wadset owner. In literature there is also a term "there" that appears to indicate a temporary relationship to a locale.
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Part 2 of 2
Several more, yawn, points need clarification.
The "John Roy Grant" from the prison records was pretty clearly a wheelwright from Aberdeen who was holed up in Craskie "there" for a bit after Culloden and he was allowed to return to Aberdeen.
This is a different John Grant, than John Grant Craskie Farmer age 40 when transported in 1747. This information is obtained from a detailed analysis by Seton in a work called “Prisoners of the '45".
Many people assume these people to be the same John (Roy) Grant and attribute DOBs of 1705 and 1706 to him as they look at the prisoner record and mistakenly assume "age 40" was calculated from the year 1745 Culloden or 1746 when John Grant Craskie farmer was a prisoner, but the record states the age was noted on the date of transport in 1747, so DOB 1707....assuming that he didn't lie about his age. LOL.
Not that John b1707 couldn't have had a middle name of Roy, it's just that there is no record that has come forth to my knowledge. This conflation of the two john's has instilled a bit of doubt in Evelyn Goulet's previous work as to make her want to revisit this at some point in the future.
The literature is pretty clear about the concurrent existence of both Patrick "the elder" OF Craskie and John of Craskie "father of Isobel" as to solidify the reality that two Grant brothers (or ½ brothers) lived in Craskie at the same point in time and both had children there.
The elder Patrick getting the wadset and the younger brother, John of Craskie, continued to live there in some capacity, fathering Isobel and quite likely John b1707 Craskie...speculation sure, but the dates, location, meager records and familial circumstances appear to support such an assertion/guess.
From the above mentioned entry "Therefore I think that this Donald may have lived at Craskie [perhaps his mother being forced by necessity to move there], but he would not REALLY be a Craskie Grant." obviously this is just one interpretation that explains this situation.
I gladly surrender the possibility/probability that Donald Grant Craskie b1744 was not of the wadset lineage, and if by that, his labeling of Donald as "not REALLY.. a Craskie Grant" is in reference to that reality, I surrender.
But, if by that passage, he implies that Donald Grant couldn't have been born and reared on Craskie and fathered through a Craskie branch of the Glenmoriston family tree, then I think I have shown enough potential for an alternate reality and it is just as valid an assertion/interpretation of the available information. Obviously, Craskie was included in his U.E.L. Records for a reason.
As always, these are just two possible scenarios based on little more than hearsay if judged in any legal environment and as such are sparsely informed pipe dreams, LOL.
As for the possibility of Y DNA shedding light on this situation: 1) Donald Grant Craskie Weaver's DNA has been tested and is known to match the the primary chiefly Grant line (there is a secondary chiefly line).
This means he carried the same Y chromasome as the Grants of Grant and descends through a straight father to son lineage. Dundreggan Grants and Glenmoriston Grant men also carry this same signature. So we really can't discern much from all the men having the same Y signature.
However, little pieces of the Y chromosome mutate periodically (called SNPs). To prove Mr. Young correct re: the presence of a Duldreggan descendant in Craskie as he proposes for Donald Grant, we would require at least two more male descendants from the Craskie line but not descending from Donald and two from known Duldreggan lines to add to our test data (which would be great).
Then we would need for there to be a convenient mutation that would have occurred after their common ancestor (John the 3rd of GM) and before 1744 to delineate the two lines from each other and then see if Donald's DNA carried that mutation or not.
Though not impossible, it appears that this would be unlikely, still I'd love to see it. All said, nothing is impossible and it was scrambled eggs in the glenn post culloden, so there are a lot of possible scenarios.
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Hi Mr Frye. I have contacted both Geoff Grant and Hank Grant, of GRANT Y-DNA project, and am unaware that any Duldraeggan Grant Y-DNA has ever been submitted. Please state from whom, and file number, if you know it.
You state above "... after their common ancestor (John the Tutor)..."; which you apparently take to be the direct ancestor of BOTH the Craskie and Duldraeggan Grant lines, and this might not be so.
I think that Duncan Grant 1630 1730, was the 1st Grant to hold Wadset of Duldraeggan; probably aided by his wife's [Catherine McDonell] father Donald McDonell 8th Chief of Glengarry Scotland; and Duncan's Heir at Law was his greatgrandson [my] Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan 1702 1779.
By the way, Donald McDonell 8th Chief of Glengarry, is the Progenitor of the McDonell lines we know as Leek, Collachie, Aberchalder, Ardnabie, Scotus, Lundie ... . Cheers J.
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Yes, you are correct, there is a dearth of testers from the Craskie and Duldreggan areas of Glenmoriston. I know of only one male descendant that has taken the test, this from the FamilyTreeDNA Grant Surname project:
"Group A (Chiefly), Subgroup 1:R-P312>DF19>DF88>Z17274>Z21133+ (Fruechie, Corriemonie, Shuglie, Glenmoriston, Blairfindy & Kilgraston)....
...Kit 373375 - is tied to Lewis Grey Grant born circa 1767 in Craskie,Glenmoriston,Inverness, Scotland.
Self
Henry W. Grant – born 1920; died 2012
George A. Grant - born 1889 in Kenyon Township,Glengarry County, ON; died Ottawa, ON 1961
John A. Grant - born 1842 in Kenyon Township,Glengarry County, ON; died Sudbury, ON 1917
Angus Grant - born 1813 in CharlottenburghTownship, Glengarry County, ON; died Kenyon Township 1886
Lewis Grey Grant - born 1767 in Craskie,Glenmoriston, Inverness, Scotland; died Charlottenburgh 1846
Donald(Craskie) Grant Sr. - born in Craskie, Glenmoriston, Inverness,Scotland; died Charlottenburgh"
That is all we have to this point that I know of. My prior statements were in regards to the minimal number of participants and DNA mutations necessary to prove/disprove the the Donald Grant lineage being from Craskie or Duldreggan.
Re: John the Tutor, I mis-spoke, soo many Johns and 111 degrees here today. As you know, John the Tutor was one of the three sons of John, 3rd OF GM. John the 3rd being the father of 1) Patrick IV OF GM, 2) John the Tutor - progenitor of the Coneachen Craskie lineage and 3) your Duncan - progenitor of the Duldreggan lineage, all noted in the Chiefs of Grant Book. This has been corrected in the prior post.
So the addition of this deeper ancestor would increase the testing range by a generation, hypothetically allowing for a bit better chance of capturing an SNP mutation for our hypothetical DNA test.
Now as to whether the Donald Grant b1744 Craskie flowed from either the Glenmoriston Grants, Duldreggan Grants, Craskie Grants or other male descendant from the Chiefly lineage, this is still unknown.
All that we do know is that he shares the same Y chromosome with all of them and there appears to be a number of possible paths for Donald to find himself in Craskie, including having been born from the Craskie Grant lineage(s).
If you are aware of any Duldreggan male descendants, please encourage them to take the test to help offer a better vision of the past.
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Hi. I know of a goodly number of direct GRANT descendants of my John Duldraeggan Grant 1737 1802, of Lots 25&26 Street Road Charlottenburg Glengarry Ont. None seem interested in this Y-DNA project.
As I mentioned, my Duldraeggan bunch, were strongly aligned with their cousin McDonell, they have intermarried for 5oo+ years; including my Flora McDonell Young's 1st cousin John Roy McDonell Sr of South Branch Road aka SBR marrying his neighbour, sister of your Lewis Grey Grant Lot 13 SBR. These men, along with [my] Duncan Grant Lot 20 SBR, were on Joint Petition 1833, and all on Old UE List. J.
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kfrye173
I haven't read this post for years so the activity the last two days spiked my interest.
Your factoid re Peter Grant in Skye caught my attention. I assume this is just hypothesis as no BMD records prior to 1800 for Skye survived. And the number of surviving OPR births of all Grant's on Skye 1800-1855 is less than 50 suggesting a small population.
The other statement was that Alexander Grant (2nd Lieutenant Governor of Upper Canada), was also a Judge. He was a Justice of the Peace which is completely different. A JP's role is civil only settling minor disputes and representing the Governor's office in matters of state. There were 4 JP's each assigned to an area. Given his residence was at Grosse Point I'll assume he had the SW division which was west of the Grand River to the St. Clair River.
Don
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That's unfortunate, It is a hard case to make to someone who knows their history already and wouldn't necessarily see the benefit of such and expensive exercise. If you ever get the chance to speak to them, please let them know that there are a number of us who would gladly pool some money needed to help cover the cost of the test. All we would need is their spit. Hate to see a missed opportunity to validate the lineage and look for that mythical SNP mutation that might show a distinction between the Craskie and Duldreggan lines or just validate the closeness of the GM Grants.
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Who you are, is unknown to me. The Peter Grant of Isle of Skye, fathered John Grant of Lachine [near Montreal] d. 1817; and several others, prior to marrying Janet Duldraeggan Grant 1736 1766, mother of Peter Grant of Lachine [and 4 others].
Honourable Alexander Grant of L'Orignal [Ontario], served Parliament Upper Canada, hence the Honourable, and one of his 2 tombstones at CASSBURN Cemetery [also located L'Orignal] says Judge, though he was more likely a Justice of the Peace [as was his father, John Duldraeggan Grant 1737 1802].
What interest do you have in my family ? J.
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Sorry Mr Frye. My comment was to another.
As to your advice about spitting in a cup !!! These folks are my Friends, Cousins, Neighbours, and quite capable of making their own decisions on their probable heritage.
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Spit is still pretty offensive, I agree. I just checked the FTDNA site re: Grant Surname DNA and it appears there are a couple different SNPs associated with Craskie and Dundreggan, meaning it appears that someone from Duldreggan (or more) have completed the test, The site makes it anonymous, so hard to know who, but the addition of Duldreggan to the description of DNA takers is new.
The SNP mutation appeared to have happened in about 100 years ago, so outside of our range for the Craskie Duldreggan test. Not a lot of other mutations are noted in the last 1000 years (either not tested for or a very stable Y chromosome). Here is a couple snippets from the site that are of interest:
The Descendants of the Clan Chiefs and related septs.
Those of you who are indeed genetically related to the Clan Chiefs can be found in Group A and its subgroups (see the Y-DNA Results link at the top of the homepage for DNA groupings). Several known Chiefly descendants have been tested, and the following Chiefly families are now represented within the Project (with family specific SNPs noted where possible):
Z17274 & Z21133 positive & DYS620=8:
Freuchie
Corriemonie (R-A578)
Shuglie (R-A578)
Glenmoriston (R-A1226 & R-A1227)
Craskie/Duldreggen (R-A1226 & R-A1227)
Blairfindy (Longueuil)
Kilgraston
It is a testament to the homogeneity of the GM lineage (Craskie and Duldreggan inclusive) that they all share the same SNP mutations.
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I don't know you either. I have a few Grant's in my line 4 different unrelated families all via marriage. And on my maternal side two UEL's hence I have strong interest in colonial history including HBC and the fur trade as kin from Skye and the Orkney's did 2 terms with them.
So no idea where Peter Grant from Skye came from...too bad.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2016/347/137186260_1481659177.jpg its a memorial erected by his friends.
https://www.ontariocourts.ca/en/formerjudges
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/grant_alexander_5E.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grant_(Upper_Canada_politician)
Don
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Hi Don. That Memorial photo you sent is for a different Honourable Alexander Grant, not the one from L'Orignal. Go to FindAGrave website, find Cassburn Cemetery in Ontario, lookup all GRANT, there he is. My guy ran Trading Post on Ottawa River called Duldraeggan Hall. His friend John MacDonell Jr. of Scotus had Trading Post downriver near Pointe Fortune, and this John's brother was Miles McDonell of Scotus, 1st Governor of Assiniboia [Manitoba] and member of HBC. The other guys were NorWesters, as were Peter Grant of Isle of Skye's sons Peter Jr. and Donald/ Duncan Grant, and their half brother John Grant of Lachine was biggest Shipper of Trading Goods, on St Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers.
Much history here, but you have to know your Grant. Cheers .
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Simon Fraser Jr. the Canadian Explorer's mother was Issabella Duldraeggan Grant, a sister of my John Duldraeggan Grant 1737 1802, making Simon Jr and Honourable Alexander Grant of L'Orignal, 1st cousins, and they married McDonell sisters [daughters of Allen McDonell of Matilda Twp.].
I think I already mentioned that the Grant and McDonell, intermarried a lot.
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Try Patrick Grant, Peter interchangeable!
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Hi DonM. I think the guy you mentioned previously, is better known to me as Commodore Alexander Grant b. abt. 1734. He would be a 1st cousin of my Hannah Grant 1717 1802, wife of Aeneas/ Angus Grant of Duldraeggan 1702 1779. He would have been close in age to Hannah's kids and probably lived near them. As mentioned, Peter Grant of Isle of Skye had fathered several illegitimate kids before marrying Janet Duldraeggan Grant 1736 1766, and John Grant of Lachine d. 1817 was one of them and probably raised at Duldraeggan with Janet's kids who were his half siblings.This Commodore Alexander Grant was a very prominent Shipper on the St Lawrence and Great Lakes, and probably gave John Grant of Lachine [who he definitely regarded as family] his start in Shipping [after the Commodore got more involved in politics], John became the most prominent Shipper, and his half brothers Peter and Donald Grant of Lachine were prominent NorWesters. J.
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Have found out g00d many more details of Malcom McDONALD (Parents: Alexander,Tenant, Tulloch/Betty Reid). Malcom born 16 June, 1768 as Twin to John who died at birth; first marriage to Jannet McDonald (maiden name) of Moy b.1760; had six children; Second marriage as widower to: Mary C. McKENZIE of Fodderty, on 1 Jan., 1820...4 children - Murdoch, Margaret M., William Hughin & Elizabeth.
No record of Malcom after his appearance in 1841 census, can't locate his death date but maybe sometime soon after 1841 census? Don't know what happened to Mary after that date, although found one as a 'pauper' which could be her. Would love to find Malcom's death date and burial if possible, and his wives details. Any ideas?
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If someone is described as a pauper, that specifically implies that they were in receipt of assistance from the parish.
Before 1845, parish relief was distributed by the kirk, and the kirk session accounts usually list the names of those who were in receipt of relief.
The surviving kirk session minutes are in the National Records of Scotland. Search the catalogue https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/welcome.aspx for the relevant parish using reference starts CH2.
Many of them are available to read at Scotland's People. They are not indexed. Go to https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/record-creator-search and search using the parish name.
From 1845, relief was administered by the parochial board. Their records usually contain quite a lot of information about every pauper, including place of birth, why they are being given relief, what family they have and when they died.
The surviving parochial board records for mainland Inverness-shire are held by Highland Archives in Inverness https://www.highlifehighland.com/highland-archive-centre/
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Thanks very much for that that info. Ruth
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Just a note to say that I am enjoying this discussion. Donald Grant (Craskie the Pearl) is my 4xGG, through his daughter Nancy (Anne) Grant who married John Roy Macdonell. This is on my maternal grandfather's side. My mother's family still runs the farm that was established in 1784 on the Glen Road in Williamstown. I am only now realizing the confusion surrounding Donald Grants lineage. Thanks for these insights.
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Lately a McDonald has been digging into her McDonald lineage. We share common ancestors from the daughter Flora of Donald Grant b1778 s/o Donald Grant Craskie b1744 Char 2C N13 SBRR and son Alex of the Duncan "by the Bridge" McDonald on Char 2C N23 SBRR.
Though this McD signature is R1b and so not of the R1a chiefly lines, nonetheless it appears to have an interesting past. The terminal SNP for her father's line is BY-150. There are some historical matches for her McD line from Glenmoriston. Two of the BY-150 matching Y DNA testers have passed, but the family that remains have had some limited communication from Glenmoriston.
In it they indicated that their lines reach back deeply in time in Glenmoriston and that they descend from one of the seven good men in Aonach. From the existing published records and stories. this lineage appears to track back to Clan Ian Chaoil (slender john). In the book, Olden Times in the Parish, there are a couple of references to this "clan" in the attachments. Another story attributed to this line pegs the father of this "clan" as John Riagh Nan-Stop and various versions of this name exist.
He was supposedly a close confidant of Glengarry and were in Glenmoriston in the late 1300s onward. four of his sons are named in the attachments and each given a "clan" designation, which seems a bit gratuitous, lol. one of them is Clan Iain Ruadh. This appears by accounts to be a different Clan Iain Ruadh than the west coast, but scots like to move around, clan Ranald derivation and if I remember correctly, they appear to occupy different times in different places.
The father and sons were in GM by 1395 (at least according to an account) Glenmoriston Clan Iain Ruadh (GM CIR) may have begun with John Riagh Nan-stops son or John Riagh Nan-stop may have had the designation himself and passed it to his eldest son, dont know. but according to the attached information, the GM CIR was in charge of the Exchange of the Shirts ceremony that took place with the chief of Glengarry on an "annual" basis.
We are discovering more information slowly but surely with other McD DNA matches from Australia who have recently left GM and have the same family history. So this is getting to be some fun. Luckily we have some good DNA to help shore of the stories. If you know of any, please encourage other McDs from GM to get the big Y DNA test.
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Recently came across this list of Arrivals in Barbados in 1747 of Glenmoriston Grant prisoners following Culloden. The one that I was interested in is John Grant Craskie age 40, he made it. So he didn't die from post Culloden injuries, didn't die in the Inverness Gaol, didn't die on the boat trip down to London, didn't die drawing lots where all the ship's prisoners were grouped by twenty and then drew lots (the loser went to the tower and was executed), he didn't die during Transport and he did arrive in Barbados. Unfortunately, per this document the trail gets muddied by the possibility that he was then shipped elsewhere by a London merchant named Samuel Smith ?
Here is the online document as I found it, posted by The Friends of Barbados Archives, interesting. It appears to have the same informational elements that also existed in the British records when they were taken prisoner...The author of this excerpt leaves a few more crumbs to be researched, but I enjoyed this one.
[CARIBBEAN-L] GRANTS of Glenmoriston to Barbados
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Ernest M. Wiltshire
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Mar 26, 1999, 12:00:00 AM
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Extract from The Journal of the Barbados Museum & Historical Society Journal, Vol XXXI, No. 2, May 1963, pages 73-90. (GRANTS on pages 77 &78)
SCOTS PRISONERS TRANSFERRED TO BARBADOS & JAMAICA
Name Age Home Notes
Grant, Alexander 48 Wester, Inverwick, Boatman, In Barbados,
Glenmoriston but escaped.
Grant, Alexander 55 Ditto Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Alexander 31 Glen Urquhart Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Alexander 35 Glenmoriston __
Grant, Angus 34 Wester Dundregan, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, Angus 50 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Archibald 40 Glen Urquhart Farmer in Glen Urquhart
Grant, Donald 36 Dalnagarn, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, Donald 32 Ballintonbuy, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, Donald 40 Wester Dundreggan, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, Donald 40 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Dugal 50 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, George 40 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Hugh 50 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, James* 50 Blair, Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 40 Craskie, Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 45 Belnagarn, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, John 41 Easter Achlein, Farmer in Glenmoriston
Glenmoriston
Grant, John 50 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 30 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 40 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 25 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 40 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 45 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, John 22 Glenmoriston __ __
Grant, John 26 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Peter 50 Glenmoriston Farmer in Glenmoriston
Grant, Peter 24 Inverness Fiddler in Glen Urquhart
Grant, Walter 40 Teviotdale Barber in Edinburgh
[All spellings transcribed exactly from List. * James is "my" Grant!]
A brief extract from t he introduction to the lists:
"It is stated by the Treasury Records that 150 men went in the ship Frere, commander John Peters, to Barbados, 110 men and boys in the ship St. George, commander Geo. Snow to Jamaica, and 10 boys in the Cateret, commander Chas. Friend to Jamaica, making a total of 270..."
"... In the Registration Office, Barbados, there is a list of the names of persons who had been pardoned by H.M. King George III in 1746 of high treason, on condition that they bound themselves apprentice and servant to Samuel Smith, a London Merchant, to be transported to His Majesty's Islands or Colonies in America. This list contains the names of 127 persons, and since the document is recorded in Barbados, it is possible that these men travelled hither in the ship Frere. The number is 23 less however than stated by the Treasury Books. Possibly these died before or during the voyage and their names may have ben omitted from the record in the Barbados Registration Office..."
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Ernest M. Wiltshire / Friends of the Barbados Archives
38 Inglewood Place, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1Y 4C7
Tel & Fax: 613-729-0982 e-mail: mur...@synapse.net
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Recently came across this list of Arrivals in Barbados in 1747 of Glenmoriston Grant prisoners following Culloden.
Duplicate post https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=282134.msg7640118#msg7640118