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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: Morney on Monday 03 November 08 20:35 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for information about my grandfather. I have traced a Hugh Livitt born 1872 who lived in Bathgate in 1901 and Falkirk before and after that time. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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No one of that name on the LDS 1881 Census discs.
There are variations on the name eg. Levett, but no one called Hugh.
Cheers
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Hi Morney
Welcome to RootsChat :)
From Hugh's 1891 entry:
Hugh Levitt 53, labourer retired, b. Glasgow
Marion Levitt 56, Dunfermline, Fifeshire
Hugh Levitt 19 Labourer Chemical , b. Pindee, East India Ranid
Donald Levitt 16, iron dresser, b. Island, Jersey Channel
Address:Loch No 16, Falkirk Landward
This looks a possibility for parents' marriage:
HUGH LIVITT Spouse: MARION MCKIVER
Marriage: 07 FEB 1865 Stirling
Monica :)
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No sign of Hugh Snr and Marion's births on IGI. From the censuses, this look a possible entry for Marion in 1851:
George McIver 26, labourer, b. Pettiesmuir, Fife
Marion McIver 16, sister, b. Pettiesmuir, Fife
Robert Caddel 2, nephew, b. Pettiesmuir, Fife
Address: Village Of Pettiesmuir, Dunfermline
And in 1841:
Margt Philp 40
Margt McEver 20
Geo McEver 15
Christian McEver 12
Janet McEver 10
Elizabeth McEver 8
Marion McEver 5
Margt McWed 20
Address: Pettie Sinard Village 257, Dunfermline
No relationships show on the 1841 census, so not clear if Margaret Philip is mother.
Hugh is elusive - can't easily see him in the early censuses.
Monica
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Thank you very much for the information you have given me.
I do not know if this is the right Hugh Livitt.
On my grandfathers death and marriage certificates he is called Hugh Lovat. His father was also called Hugh Lovat. His father is down as a war pensioner. In the family stories my grandfather was born in India and he lived in Scotland. He is a widower on his marriage certificate. The other story is that he was a manager at a steelworks. The names Marion and Donald are also in our family.
This Hugh Livitt, Levett or Lovat(the name seems to change through time) fits much of this description above including the age.
We thought our grandfather left scotland because his wife and child had died after he was in a fight and sent to prison. I do not have any detailed information about this.
From research I find that Hugh Livitt was a forman at a chemical works, he was born in India and his father was called Hugh. In 1901 he lived in Bathgate. However in 1905 he is in Falkirk recording the births of his daughter Barbara Gordon and at the same time a Rachel who was born in 1903. A later entry shows Barbara died in 1906 and the death recorded from the Poorhouse by the House governer. Hugh Livitt's wife died in 1918 in Falkirk and was registered by her daughter Mary McColgan. The wifes name was recorded as Annie Lovat and her husband as Hugh Lovat foreman at the chemical works.
This may well be my grandfather however he married in Newcastle in 1909. It is all very complicated so I hope you will bear with me! So if this is the right Hugh Lovat there may have been a divorce or it may be a bigamous marriage.
If anyone could advise me how to prove this is the right Hugh Lovat or leave him in peace if it is not. Through my research there are very few people with this name even using soundex in Scotland.
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Hi Morney
It does sound confusing ::)
You say you have a marriage cert for him in Newcastle in 1909? However, wife Annie didn't die until 1918 :o What showed for Hugh on his wife's death cert: employment, etc. What marital status showed for Annie?
This is Hugh and Annie in 1901:
Hugh Levitt 29, Foreman (steam Boiler), b. British Subject, Rawal Bridee India
Annie Levitt 28, b. Ireland
Mary Levitt 8, b. Falkirk
Rosina Levitt 4, b. Falkirk
John Levitt 2, b. Falkirk
Address: 88 Cochrane St, Bathgate
I would say Hugh above is certainly v. likely to be the same Hugh we have in 1891 with his parents Hugh and Marion (McIver). I wouldn't worry about the spellings of his surname. I would imagine you will see a number of spelling variations on this name.
I would imagine his father Hugh was probably in the Army given the varied birth places for the two sons in the 1891 entry. He would probably have retired from the Army by 1891 where he shows as Labourer, retired.
Where and when did Hugh die (you said the Poorhouse)? Have you tried checking to see whether you could trace any Poor Relief applications?
We like a good mystery here on RootsChat ;)
Monica
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Have you also looked at the marriage cert for Hugh and Annie?
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Thank you for the interest you have shown in this mystery.
It was Hugh Livitt's daughter who died in the poor house. It was a good idea to look at the application for poor relief, do you know where I can find this information?
I have found Hugh and Annie's marriage certificate for 18th April 1892 he was a laborer and lived at Lock no 16 in Falkirk.
On Annie's death certificate her husband is Hugh 'Lovat' and a foreman in the chemical works. However her daughter Mary McColgan has registered the death.
Hugh Livitt's father was in the army from his marriage certificate in 1865.
Any further info or ideas for searches would be very much appreciated.
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I found an entry for Hugh Snr I think in 1901:
Hugh Livitt, 64, Way (?spl...army?) Pensioner, b. Ireland
Address: Stirling District Lunatic Asylum, Larbert, Stirlingshire
The change of birth place, from 1891, from Glasgow to Ireland is worth noting. May explain why he is so difficult to find in the early censuses.
There is a death in Falkirk in 1892 for a Marion McIver/Livitt.
What were the names showing for Hugh Snr. and Margaret McIvor on their 1865 MC?
Monica :)
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There is a British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Card showing...I wonder if it is your grandfather. His son Hugh b. in Newcastle would have been too young for WW1:
Medal card of Levitt, Hugh
Corps/ Regiment No/ Rank
Connaught Rangers/5414/ Private
Northumberland Fusiliers/ 80538/ Private
I doubt finding service records for Hugh will tell you anything about his life in Scotland, but if you don't have them already, they may be interesting for you to try and trace.
Monica
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That must be a great web site Monica. Can you give us a link to it.
Cheers.
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Hi Fergie
I got the information from the National Archives www.nationalarchives.gov.uk. The actual index card is available to purchase from there or available to view from Ancestry (via subs.) I've had a look at the image and apart from refs. to the medals awarded, no personal information included.
Monica
This link takes you straight to the search page www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
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Hi
WW1 documents can be viewed free this month at ancestry.
Best wishes
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Hi Monica
Thanks for the info on WW1 records etc.
Cheers Morney
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I have contacted the Bereavement services at Falkirk and there is a grave for Anne Livett (Hugh's wife) wife although the name is spelt Liviet with Hugh's first son who died in 1896. There is no sign of the Husband.
I was wondering if he could have disappeared in 1906 and the family still harked back to better times noting him down as a foreman at the chemical works.
I am probably clutching at straws here! :-\
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Hi Morney,
Did the Bereavement Services give you the name of the cemetery, the section and lair numbers of Anne & son's grave?
If so, I could visit and see if there's a stone sometime soon.
Anne.
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Linda
I don't think you are clutching at straws - I think you are right in what you are thinking. Likely he did leave his family sometime from 1906 - 09, at some point following the registration of daughter Barbara's death when you know he registered her death.
The why's will probably be hard for you to determine I'm sure. I don't think there was a divorce, wife Ann still showed as married at her death and Hugh showed as a 'widower' on his 1909 marriage in Newcastle.
The name Hugh Lovatt (and the number of variants), is relative rare in both Scotland and England. Lovatt by the way is the more Irish spelling of it which fits with father Hugh being Irish.
There are no deaths showing for Hugh in Scotland that I can see. To give you an idea of how rare the name is in Scotland, between 1855 to 2006, there are only 6 entries, of any age, in the whole of Scotland.
Of these 6 deaths:
1996 - Hugh and Annie's son, Age 0 in Falkirk
1904 - Hugh Snr I would imagine, age 67 in Larbert fitting that 1901 census entry we found
1935 - probably a newphew (?), age 37 in Larbert*
*I found another brother of Hugh's the other day . A Donald Livitt married Ann Jane McDade in Falkirk in 1898, son of Hugh and Margaret (McIver).
I do think you have found your grandfather's family. From what we have seen in the censuses and BMDs, it fits in great part what stories have been handed down through the family. You have his birth in India, his father in the army and his occupations showing on the censuses and certs.
You also have the use of family names he used for his new family, No.2 Hugh, Marion and Donald (who we now know was a brother of Hugh's).
Hugh stating he was a widower and referring to a criminal past may have been his way of keeping the door to his other life in Scotland firmly shut....
Monica
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Thank you for your support Monica. It is a lot to digest. There seems to have been some very sad times which need to be healed.
I don't think hugh was a criminal just hard working and hard drinking which may have lead him into unfortunate circumstances.
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Hi Anne
Anne Leviet's grave is at Camelon Cemetry section 1 lair 350.
Thank you for the offer.
I am very sad for her if Annie is my Grandfathers first wife. I have in mind to have a mass said for Hugh and all his family.
Many thanks
Morney :(
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Hi Morney,
Okey Dokey - first nice day I'll pop into Camelon and see what I can find. I know exactly where Section 1 is, so it'll not be difficult to find.
It won't be over the weekend as there's a Rootchat Glasgow get-together which I'm going to (whoopeeeeeee!) ;D
In the meantime, here's a couple of wee photos of Camelon Cemetery.
Anne
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Hi Morney,
Not very good news I'm afraid.
I've gone to Camelon twice (just to make sure) and I can't find a stone. There are quite a lot of small stones strewn around but their inscriptions are impossible to make out.
Best I can do, is go back a third time and take a couple of general views of that specific area. I can send you a cemetery map and mark on it (roughly) where the grave is if it's of interest?
Sorry.
Anne
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Map of Camelon Cemetery
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Hi Anne
Many thanks for trying and for photos and map. It is very good of you to take so much trouble. I still cannot confirm that this is the right person but I will go on trying. If we could confirm this we could perhaps have the grave marked.
We are having a mass said for Hugh and all his family (who ever they may be) on 16th December although not in Falkirk, so if there are any Livitts, Lovats, Levetts, etc are out there this is for you.
Best wishes
Morney
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Hi Morney
I'll be thinking of you all on the day. Not sure if you will ever find the definitive proof but your intentions are heart felt.
Monica :)
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The Levett, Lovatt name changing is common as you say. Also the names are all infrequent in Scotland, many of the "Levett" families originated in the Lewes area of Sussex and are well researched, though I am unsure if that is where the scottish family originated. Not sure if you have been in touch with Falkirk Archives about burial records but if the ones you seek are there the record often gives information on family members and are often more informative than you would think. Good luck
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Thank you for your interest. The great great grandfather of this family I found in Scotland was born in Kent so they may well be related to the Levetts from Sussex. I have contacted the burial services in Falkirk, what other information do you think I can find from them? Do you have other info about the Levett family if you know it has been well researched?
Many thanks for your help.
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Hi Morney,
My sincere apologies for not posting photos which I promised to do. I forgot!
This photo is Section 1 and shows the general area where Lair 350 is. Winter isn't the best time to take photos but in the case of this part of ther cemetery, it's the only time some natural light can actually penetrate through the trees.
Anne
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Hi Morney, first re Levett name. My ex husband was a Levett and I researched his tree as we get along fine. The levetts from the South have been widely researched and if you can let me have the name of the Kent GG Grandfather DOB and anything else if I can connect him up to what I have I am willing to give you any information I have including photographs if we can prove a link.
re Archives, I think it is earlier burials they have, after rereading your thread.
I also saw you mentioned poor house records, when I asked about these at the Archives they told me the records are missing.
I am not on here much but will pop back if I get the e mail notifying me you added again to see if my Levett lot can be of any help to you, Best wishes Lemon
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Thank you for your replies, I have just found them so sorry for not replying earlier.
Many thanks Anne for the Photo.
Also Lemon Nelly.
John Levett was born in Kent in 1791, this information was from 1841 and 1851 census. He lived in Glenelg, 1841 and Glasgow 1851. He was in the 8th Regiment of Foot. And an army pensioner. On various marriage certificates of his children he was a labourer, a stone breaker, and boat merchant.
I would be interested if you had any further info about him before 1841.
Many thanks
Morney
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hi morney :)
don't know if you have this from national archives-
john levett
born rolbenden kent
served with the 31st foot regiment , 8th foot regiment
discharged age 37
covering dates 1812 - 1829
ev
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Many thanks ev. I did not have this information. This seems to fit in with his dates. I would be interested if there was any further info.
Cheers
Morney
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maybe worth posting his name and details on the armed forces board
the people on there will know far more than me
i believe the 31st foot fought in spain c1813
the only reference to rolbenden i can find on the net is cranbrook kent
ev
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Thanks for your help with try that.
Morney
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Hi there,
I notice that your message is from a few years ago, so I hope this will still get through to you. It seems we might have some of each others' jigsaw pieces! I have been looking into the history of my grandmothers and aunt's mother, who is Annie Lovat, and whose death was registered in 1918 by her daughter Mary McColgan. The existence of this daughter, or any other children was unknown to us until now. My gran was around 8 and my aunt around 4 when they were both orphaned by Annie's death - my aunt too young to remember, and my gran would never speak about the details, not even to my aunt. Both of their birth certificates may give some clues to why you have discovered that Hugh was married in 1909 as a widower, but Annie did not die until 1918.
My gran's birth certificate for 1909 states the mother as 'Annie Devoy or Lovatt' and in the details about the father states: 'Annie Devoy wife of Hugh Lovatt, labourer who she declares is not the father of the child and further that she has had no personal communication with him since they ceased to reside together about 4 years ago'. there is no father named.
My aunts birth certificate for 1912 gives the father as Patrick Kerrigan and under the details states 'Annie Devoy, wife of Hugh Lovatt, Chemical Works Labourer, who she declares is not the father of the child and further that she has had no personal contact with him since he left her seven years ago'
When Annie died, Patrick Kerrigan was unable to look after my gran and aunt, they were 'boarded out' with a loving family on the Isle of Arran, and led long and happy lives, my aunt just dying last year at the age of 99. I have copies of the birth certificates which I would be happy to send you. We were aware that my gran and aunt had a half brother through Patrick Kerrigan, but no knowledge of any other family through Annie.
I hope that doesn't come as too much of a shock to you, but the information you have supplied about Hugh has certainly put a few pieces of the puzzle in place for us.
I'm only one day into my research, but it's already been quite fruitful!
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Hi momac 72
Thank you for your reply, this really is a five star jigsaw. Have you seen the 1911 census on Scotlands People for Annie? Patrick is registered at her address as a 'boarder'. There is also Mary Mccolgan her daughter, and Mary McColgan her granddaughter. There is a Lizzie aged 2 who may be related to you.
From my research I have found that many of Annie's children died young. Her daughter Mary was about 22 when she died. I don't know what happened to her child. Rosina was 15 when she died and I think John died in WWI. Barbara Gordon died in the poor house in 1906 aged about 1. I think only Josephine and Rachel lived a full life time.
There is a newspaper report I found recently around December 1903 which I found in Find my past in the Falkirk Herald. It is about Annie causing a disturbance and it is an account of her trial although she was found not guilty. It is well worth reading.
Our family knew nothing about Annie so it is all from research.
Good luck with your research. If I can help any further please get in touch.
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Thanks for your reply Morney, I'd love to read the article about Annie causing a disturbance! You don't happen to have the exact date that it's from?
I did find the census return from 1911 after a bit of hunting - Lizzie Livett aged 2 was my grandmother, although she subsequently used the Kerrigan name.
Am I right in assuming from your posts that you are descended from Hugh Lovatt's subsequent Newcastle family? In which case we are not connected by blood, just by a web of intrigue! Co-incidentally I now live in Newcastle. I've attached the register entries for my gran and aunt, in case you haven't come across them.
Also, I'd be interested to get the complete list of Annie's children if you have it? In the 1911 census, she declares that she had 8 children, 6 still living, one of whom would have been my gran. But the only births in the register I can find so far are:
Mary 1893
Rosina 1897
John 1899
Rachel 1903
Barbara 1905
so there should be another two births, one of them also resulting in a death? And you say that Mary died aged 22, but to register the death in 1918, she must have been around 25? Do you know of a year for her death? It would be really interesting to know what happened to her daughter. Given that she registered her mother's death, it has made me wonder if she also took charge of finding a way of placing my gran and aunt who would have been 9 and 6, into care.
Anyway, your research is much appreciated.
all the best
Copyright images removed , you can transcribe the information if you wish
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Hi momac72
The newspaper date is 14 Jan 1903.
There was another child Hugh who died in 1896 aged one, I believe he and Annie are burried in the same place.
Josephine was born in 1901 her birth certificate show the family in Bathgate. There is also a record of baptism in bathgate. You can also find her on the 1911 census in Smyllum Orphanage.
You were right about Mary she died age 26 in Jan 1920 the matron was the informant on the death certificate.
There is a very sketchy baptism record at Bathgate Immaculate Conception Church for a George parents name H Levat. I dont have any more information on that.
Sorry to hear we are not related. I see the copyright images were removed so it is difficult to sent you the complete information, but I will answer any further questions if I can.
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Just also noticed Mary McColgan had another child Josephine in 1912.
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Hi momac72
Sorry gave you wrong information again. Trying to do too many things at once. Rosina was aged 18 when she died in 1915 the informant was her uncle Joseph Devoy. Her address was Orchard St Cameleon and his was Thistle St Cameleon.
I think Josephine McColgan Mary's daughter may have died aged 4 in Falkirk although I have not looked at the death certificate which is available on Scotlands people.
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Many thanks again for this information Morney, you've given me a lot of leads to look into, I very much appreciate you sharing your research in this way. Good luck with your research also, and I'll be back in touch if I come across anything that i think may be of interest to you.
best wishes
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The Falkirk poor records are lost, the archive staff live in hope they will turn up but as yet noone knows what happened to them