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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: littlewren on Thursday 30 October 08 09:16 GMT (UK)
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I do not usually read crime books, and I just happened to see this book in the library. As I am interested in Salford I thought I would try it. I think it should be called the Gangs of Manchester and Salford. Well I am really enjoying reading it. It is by Andrew Davies and published 2008.
The book begins in the early 1800s and traces the development of gang culture. It has explained to me about the different areas. It is also very topical as it is about children and young people fighting (including knives) and the reaction of society. The relationship between the police and the public is described. Much background information is included. I am about half way through and so far I do not think Mr. Davies has glamorized the violence (which is what I was wary of). In fact I think I will be buying this for my bookshelf.
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An interesting topic, which shows that society never really improves! I remember my old Dad telling me about the Napoo gang in Hulme Manchester during the 1920's. Apparently these guys didn't fight with knives, they fought with coal grids!
Bill
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How fascinating.
The Napoo gang too, what a weapon! or maybe they were used as shields ! How did they even lift them up? they must have been very heavy!
Recently I was reading about the Stockport riots, ( online). I had never heard of those troubles before either.
Nowadays, I suppose the hostility of one group to another is harmlessly( well most of the time) channeled into football :-))
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Thanks, littlewren, much appreciated. If anyone is interested, there is a blog with more details of the book, plus a couple of short extracts and links to features on BBC Manchester Online and the Guardian Online:
http://gangsofmanchester.com
A play (loosely) based on the book will be performed at the Library Theatre in Manchester in August 2009. As littlewren points out, there is a danger of glamourising gangs and violence - we are working hard to avoid this, and one of the questions asked in the play is: why is this still happening more than 100 years later?
Andy (author of The Gangs of Manchester).
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andydavies,
the "coal grid" I referred to, was the domestic variety, that covered the "coal hole" in terraced streethouses. They were some 14 inches in diameter and depending upon how "house proud" the tenant was, they could have been "black leaded". Not too heavy and being made from "cast" iron would break apart fairly easily if struck. As a weapon against the human skull, of course, devastating!
Bill
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Thanks, Bill. I'd heard of the Napoo in Ancoats, and at Belle Vue, in the 1920s - but not in Hulme. I'd assumed that the Napoo referred to a single gang, based somewhere round Oldham Road. But after reading your post, it sounds like there might have been separate "Napoo" gangs from different parts of Manchester. I think the word 'Napoo' comes from soldiers' slang of the First World War. My research covers the earlier period (1870-1900), so it goes a generation further back.
Best wishes,
Andy
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James Stanhop Brown's book "Angel's from the Meadow" available at the Manchester Library and the site below links to the Scuttlers Gang who knew a thing or two about bashing in heads.
Their turf wars waged by gangs such as the Bengal Tigers and the She Battery Mob are described in detail in the book: 'The Gangs of Manchester: The Story of The Scuttlers.'
..don't have nightmares.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2008/10/20/201008_scuttlers_interview_feature.shtml
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NAPOO was a WW1 slang word,that meant,NO MORE or NEVER AGAIN.
mack
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hi read your message about the book you mention and saw it on poster,s at manchester libray and decided i must have it,as i like reading books like that,got it saturday but not read it yet,i have just read Ross Kemp on gang,s and mad dog,about johnny Adrir in Belfast just started it,and have read Charles Bronson,not the actor,the guy who is in prison his book,s are good. from Jacquie 8) 8) 8)
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Thanks for the replies, they're much appreciated. Incidentally I took a decision to use real names in the book, since it covers the period before 1900. I'm glad I did, as descendants of some of the "scuttlers" whose exploits are described are beginning to get in touch.
At a recent book signing at Waterstone's on Deansgate in Manchester I met two of the descendants of Owen Callaghan, a "scuttler" who was convicted of manslaughter in 1887. He was sentenced to twenty years penal servitude for the fatal stabbing of a "Bengal Tiger" named Joe Brady. His descendants were able to tell me what became of him in later life, which helps me to fill in one of the gaps in the story.
Andy
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hi Andy
thank you for that reply,i first saw the book advertised in the libray and drove every one mad trying to find it i then went into h.m.v.and there it was ,over the moon i was it is a great book to read because it is true which is hat i like,any way good luck with any more you write.
all the best Jacquie :) :) :) :)
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Hi everyone, my mum used to speak of the Napoo gang and she lived off Oldham Road,near the city centre. They had a "uniform" which consisted of collarless shirt. jacket. flat cap.beetle crusher boots or more often clogs and ALWAYS a white artificial silk muffler -scarf to you and me.I think judging by that description almost everyone could have been mistaken for a gang member!!Nothing changes does it really? todays kids with their hoods up etc all look alike and put the fear of God or the other fella into most people but not all are as bad as the real villains.The Napoo gang however were quite grown-up, not teenagers for the most part. There were no such creatures as teenagers then. Even in the 50`s when I was doing the monkey walk up Oldham Road near the temperance bar at the junction with Lamb Lane later joined to Queens Road near The Playhouse We were either too young or too old for anything we wanted to do. Too young for make up but old enough at 14 to get a Saturday job to help out at home and buy a few bits for ourselves. Never mind I know I am old but as the words of the song said "I`m glad I`m not young anymore`Viktoria.
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Hi everyone, my mum used to speak of the Napoo gang and she lived off Oldham Road,near the city centre. They had a "uniform" which consisted of collarless shirt. jacket. flat cap.beetle crusher boots or more often clogs and ALWAYS a white artificial silk muffler -scarf to you and me.I think judging by that description almost everyone could have been mistaken for a gang member!!Nothing changes does it really? todays kids with their hoods up etc all look alike and put the fear of God or the other fella into most people but not all are as bad as the real villains.The Napoo gang however were quite grown-up, not teenagers for the most part. There were no such creatures as teenagers then. Even in the 50`s when I was doing the monkey walk up Oldham Road near the temperance bar at the junction with Lamb Lane later joined to Queens Road near The Playhouse We were either too young or too old for anything we wanted to do. Too young for make up but old enough at 14 to get a Saturday job to help out at home and buy a few bits for ourselves. Never mind I know I am old but as the words of the song said "I`m glad I`m not young anymore`Viktoria. P.S The Bengal Tigers were from Bengal Street also at the town end of Oldham Road.V
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Not got round to reading Andy's book but I have read these, and would recommend them.
Manchester: The Sinister Side
Crime City: Manchester's Victorian Underworld
Andy
Has this event taken place yet?
DATE TO BE CONFIRMED: Borders, Cheetham Hill Road (Manchester Fort)
Ken :)
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We're just waiting for Borders to confirm the date. It was originally set for Sunday 30 but that clashed with the Manchester derby!
Ken, if you enjoyed Crime City and Manchester: The Sinister Side, you'll probably enjoy The Gangs of Manchester. It's much more detailed (300-plus pages), and has a lot of background information on the lives of young people in Manchester and Salford in the late nineteenth century, including early versions of the "monkey walk"' described by Viktoria in her post.
These stories of the Napoo gang are fascinating. Does anyone know of someone who was actually a member?
Andy
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Hi Andy
Nothing would make me leave the house on derby day.
Let me know the new date for the book signing and I will be along, apart from family research going to book signings is my other hobby - just wish I could have got to the Keith Warrender book signing for Underground Manchester, what a fantastic read. I had to settle for a signed copy off the shelf ;D
Ken
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hi mancsman.
have not read underground manchester but will be getting it i have read the other books that you mention ,there is a other one that i got yobs on the doorstep by Linda walker,(it is about the manchester gun teachers story it was on the news,about a lady who took on a gang good read,people say cos i am a girl i should be reading MILLS and BOONS love story's i don't think so.
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Hi kalasira
Sorry that title is a bit misleading and I should have explained ::)
Underground Manchester is all about the the tunnels, canals, rivers under the city of Manchester - I digressed slightly in this posting :)
I just love any type of history stories/books/films/documentaries etc on Manchester
Ken
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have to get that book,it sounds great.
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NAPOO
It is a bastardised French like "San fairy ann" is ça
ne fait rien,.
The old WW1 satirical journal, The Wipers Times" (Wipers being a jovial
deformation of the name of the Belgian town Ypres), and quoting a nice
quatrain by Gilbert Frankau, he concludes:
The Wipers texts, both prose and verse, are full of slang still vibrant and
uncontained; a famous example is na poo or narpoo, from the French 'il n'y a
plus', meaning 'there's none left', or more generally, 'no good'. Hence:
The privit to the sergeant said
"I wants my blooming rum."
"Na poo," the sergeant curtly said,
And sucked his jammy thumb.
Another source; The Cassell Dictionary of Slang lists it as:
napoo [1910s-40s] finished, ended.
Frankray
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Ken,
The book signing at Borders in Cheetham Hill (Manchester Fort) has now been rescheduled for Sunday, 21 December, 11.00-1.00.
All the best,
Andy
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Cheers Andy
I will be calling in :)
Ken
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A good contemporary read is 'Gang War: the Inside story of the Manchester Gangs', by Peter
Walsh. over 300 pages and begins with a bit of the 'old' history (the scuttlers). Starts in the mid 1980's up to 2005. I found it a good read.
Have a nice day
failsafe
:P
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to failsafe.
there is a book not long out by Andrew Davies called the gangs of manchester this one just out is about the scuttlers which is a great book i really enjoyed it and worth buying . :P
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Thanks
Will try that too
Well it's Christmas, might as well indulge myself
failsafe :o ;D :D
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i would waterstones have it but i got mine from h.m.v,it was only £10,Ross Kemp on gangs is all so a good read,have you read Charles Bronson,s books not the actor this one is in prison ,his books are good,and a really nice person ,all the best Jacquie ;)
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I will bear those in mind
Merry Xmas
failafe
:D :D
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to failsafe.
thanks for reply happy christmas and new year. 8) 8)
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And all the best to you to
Have a great Xmas, and all the best for 2009
failsafe
:o
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to failsafe.
there is a book not long out by Andrew Davies called the gangs of manchester this one just out is about the scuttlers which is a great book i really enjoyed it and worth buying . :P
Went to meet Andrew Davies at his book signing last Sunday at Borders in Cheetham Hill, What a nice person to talk to.
The book is being turned into a play and will be on in Manchester so time next year, at the book signing was his friend Ted who will be in the play.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Ken
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I'll watch out for it.
Have a merry Xmas
failsafe
::)
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There will be a short feature on the Gangs of Manchester book on Inside Out on BBC1 North-West this coming Wednesday, 18 February. It's one of three items in the programme, which starts at 7.30. The feature on "scuttling" gangs will be presented by Nigel Pivaro, who played Terry Duckworth in Coronation Street, and includes interviews with Duncan Broady, curator of Greater Manchester Police Museum, and Leslie Holmes of Salford Lads' Club.
Andy
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Thanks for the post Andy
Will certainly watch it. They are never on for long which is a pity
Thanks
failsafe
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Andy
Cheers for that ;D
What ever happened to your mate with the camera at your booksigning joining us on Rootschat. ;) ;D :D
Have any of them photos been put online?
Regards
Ken
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Hi Ken, I think Ted's pretty busy with the acting at the moment. He's not put the photos from the signing online, but he took some great pictures at the filming of one of the "gang" scenes for Inside Out in Angel Meadow. The BBC have put a couple up on the Inside Out website, along with various bits of film that didn't survive the editor's cut.
All the best,
Andy
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If anyone is interested in hearing more about the "scuttlers" of Victorian Manchester and Salford, there will be a talk based on the "Gangs of Manchester" book at the Manchester Histories Festival to be held at Manchester Town Hall on Saturday, 21 March. This is one of a series of free talks to be held that day. More details can be found here:
http://www.manchesterhistoriesfestival.org.uk/lectures.php
Tickets can be reserved in advance from this website.
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ohhh Andy
thanks for that post.
Have tried to book seats at your talk, hope I get them. I see a couple of the walks are already full. Looking forward to hearing more on the gangs.
By the way I have bought your book. :)
Little Wren
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Thanks, littlewren. Hope you enjoyed the book!
There will be a talk based on the Gangs of Manchester at the Deansgate branch of Waterstones on Saturday 25 July, at 3 o'clock. This will be followed by the performance of a scene from the forthcoming play based on the book, Angels with Manky Faces:
http://www.librarytheatre.com/whatson/wh....th-manky-faces/
The event at Waterstones is free, but the store is issuing tickets so if anyone is interested please give them a call to reserve a place. Brief details, including the contact number, are at:
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/navigate.do?pPageID=200002
Lots of the cast from the play will be in and around the store in costume. Watch out for the live window display at the rear of the store prior to the talk at 3 o'clock!
Finally, there is a trailer for the play on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eQ9WLMpGjw
best wishes to everyone,
Andy (Davies)
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Hi Andrew
Went to see your play " Angels with Manky Faces" last night with Migky and are good ladies - what a fantastic show to go and watch.
Hats off to everyone involved - will it be recorded at some time? just seems to good to be lost to the history books as just another play.
Regards
Ken
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Thanks, Ken, really glad you enjoyed it. Unfortunately we don't have the facilities to record it. However, we are doing some additional performances on 6 and 8 November at the Dancehouse theatre (opposite the BBC on Oxford Road) in case you know anyone else who might enjoy it. There are more details on the website:
http://gangsofmanchester.com
All the best,
Andy
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I too bought the "Gangs" book - living in Stockport and knolwing South manchester it was very interesting.
Talking of the Workhouse riots in Stockport. On Ancestry.co.uk a crime hint popped up and I found one of my ancestors was arrested and charged with inciting a riot - whole list of others but he was found not guilty.
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A very good read is 'The Crime Buster' by Jerome Caminada. Fighting crime in the slums of Victorian Manchester. Excellent! How times have changed in enforcing the law! Nieve.
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I recently bought Gangs of Manchester book and am now eager to find out if one of the persons mentioned - a young James Casey on page 45 is one of mine and if there is more information somewhere regarding his court appearance to further identify him......
Also cant wait for Glasgow Gangs book :)
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I recently bought Gangs of Manchester book and am now eager to find out if one of the persons mentioned - a young James Casey on page 45 is one of mine and if there is more information somewhere regarding his court appearance to further identify him......
Also cant wait for Glasgow Gangs book :)
tkd
The author Andy Davies is a rootschat member, leave a message on this posting http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,363351.0.html