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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: duckweed on Wednesday 29 October 08 20:35 GMT (UK)
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Help me sort this out. In 1881 Arthur Kemp is an apprentice to William Stringer in Sheffield. He is put as a nephew as is Fred Bullivant. I think Arthur's father was Robert Kemp from Tickhill. I know that Fred Bullivant's grandmother is Anne Teasdale 1826 Tickhill married to Henry Jarvis 1826 Tickhill. Her sister Sarah married William Stringer. I know there is a Robert Jarvis Kemp in Tickhill so assume this is where the family linked in but can't find the link. Can anyone find just how Arthur is related to William Stringer or Sarah Stringer?
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When was Arthur born
Where was he born
We need to have the full 1881 details posted in your message to trace these people on earlier censuses
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It appears to be the 1891 census not 1881.
Arthur was born 1873 according to that.
Christine
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Sorry it is 1891. Arthur is at 24 Clarence Street . So his birthdate was 1873. Fred Bullivants mother was Sarah Ann Jarvis born 1853 Ecclesall Bierlow his father Richard Bullivant bron 1854 Kilnhurst Rotherham. Sarah's parebts were Ann Teasdale and Henry Jarvis both 1824 and Tickhill. I've found a marriage in Tickhill of a Joseph Kemp to a Mary Jarvis in Tickhill 26th June 1808 so that looks where the family links but I don't know what relationship Mary Jarvis is to Henry Jarvis. As far as I know Joseph had a son called Robert and Robert is Arthurs father but haven't solidified these links as they are more an educated guess just now.
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My problem is Henry Jarvis and establishing his parents. What I know for sure is that is where Henry is from 1861 as luckily he lived in the same place for a number of years and I have his address on his daughter Sarah Ann's marriage certificate. So in 1861 onwards he is living 49 Greystones Road Ecclesall Bierlow. His eldest daughter Eliza appears to have been born in Tickhill in 1850 so that leads me back to 1851 where he appears to be in Tickhill as a farm labourer and has a son William as well who is born 1846 approximately. But I can't find him in Tickhill in 1841. There are 3 Henry Jarvis at the right age but none of them are a good fit, one is in Doncaster and is deaf, another is a trainee cutler in Sheffield, and the third is in Rotherham with John Jarvis who is a Slater. Given the history of cutlers in the family did he try his luck and then give up and return to the land?
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I am curious as Ann Teasdale b 1826 marrying Henry Jarvis and Sarah m William Stringer. Does anyone know anything about these people? Were they born Tickhill? Siblings of William b 1818? If so I am a descendant of him ( living in Australia) and am seeking info on origins of father George b c 1796 and mother Hannah nee Mathews.
Was Sarah employed by the Stringers c 1841 census time prior to marrying William Stringer?
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As far as I can tell although Sarah Teasdale was from Tickhill, William Stringer was not and was in fact born in Sheffield, son of Thomas Stringer who was also a penknife cutler born in Bradfield 21 Oct 1798 died 19 Jan 1858 and buried in the General Cemetery. Sarah's sister Ann married Henry Jarvis also from Tickhill (7 May 1826 ) Their daughter Sarah Ann Jarvis married into my husbands family by marrying Richard Bullivant who was born in Kilnhurst Rotherham in 1855. Their son Fred was apprenticed to William Stringer. Like you I had wondered if the Stringers were also connected to the Tickhill Stringers but as far as I know not.
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That's ok- was not sure where William Stringer was born- although I have now found them on a census- listed as Strainer ( obviously a misscribe as in the copperplate writing it is definitely an "r" ansd has a g as well... very easy to read but I guess young people can't read copperplate writing these days!!! Says he was from Sheffield but it is only a short distance from Tickhill anyway.
My ancestor William was born 1819 at Tickhill and had known siblings Mary b 1816, Sarah b c 1823 and Anne b 1826. His parents were George- married to Hannah Matthews in 1815.
William T came to Australia in 1836 and married and of course the rest is history.
It was thought that Wills father George came from Rosedale however with him being born @ Tickhill maybe not.
William emigrated in 1836, so figured the remainder of the family may be still on a census and this seemed to be the only family which came up at time of search... which indicated that George was born 1795/6 given his age was 45 as was Hannah on the census. We only had him having three sisters- Mary 1816, Sarah 1823 and Anne 1826 and was surprised to find a George b 1828/9 ( listed as 12 on the census).
Our William was a businessman in South Australia and his son William a farmer.. as were his sons.
I am interested more in Anne, Sarah and Mary and their descendants. Also if George 1828 being on a census was a younger brother.... and what happened to him.
I have been mapping some other Teasdales from Rosedale given that wa smy starting point and could not find any at Tickhill as someone had written it as Thickhill!! Until I found another sheet of info buried in amongst a pile of family data!
Do you possible have any info on the Teasdales?
Is good to get some feedback. :)
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Definitely the same Teasdales. I have in my family George Teasdale (sometimes Teesdale) born in Sheffield 1796 married to Hannah Matthews 8 June 1815 Ecclesfield, Sheffield. He is down in 1841 census as an agricultural labourer. Children Mary 15 Nov 1816 Tickhill, William 3 Feb 1819 Tickhill, George 9 Sep 1821 Tickhill, Sarah 11 May 1823 Tickhill, Anne Teasdale
1826 Tickhill.
Mary married Joseph Brightmore 24 Nov 1835 Rotherham and went to live in Catcliffe Rotherham.
Sarah married William Stringer. There may be a son William as there is a William Stringer mentioned as apprentice in one census.
Ann married Henry Jarvis a farm labourer in Tickhill. They moved to Greystones in Sheffield where Henry had a job as a coachman and then a gardener. His daughter Sarah Ann married Richard Bullivant from Kilnhurst Rotherham. He was a trained butcher but later went on to be a Gardener. He lied about his age at the wedding and claimed to be 21 when in fact he was 19. This could account for the fact that there are no Bullivant witnesses at the wedding. I'm told he was an educated man so would have known when he was born. The Brightmores were connected with the Blunns who were major glass manufacturers in Catcliffe. Their bottle kilns still exist there today. Mary Teasdales niece by marriage Lucy Ann Brightmore married Joseph Ramsbottom Blunn. One of our Bullivant family worked there before going to Sheffield. Many of the Bullivants were stone masons in Wickersley making the grinding stones for the Sheffield Grinders. Presumably that would be the occupation of the Teasdales too. Stringer is a common name throughout the Sheffield and Rotheram area and is misspelt a lot so not always the easiest to trace. I haven't traced George Teasdale but I'll have a try.
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Couple of sites you might like to look at
http://www.treetonweb.co.uk/genea/brightmore.htm
http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk
If you put Brightmore Teasdale Blunn or Stringer in the search on the Rotherham web you will find some references
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Thanks Duckweed. :) Really Appreciate the info you have provided on the sisters and the marriages.Also Nice chatting to you and am glad I happened to stumble upon your posts and find this piece of the family jigsaw. Would be interested to know what happened to young George. Am a bit confused though as While you put him as being born 1821, on the 1841 census he appears as 12 which would make him born 1828/29. Possible the census has an error- wouldn't be the first I have encountered. Am not sure if he married or not.
Had a look at the weblinks but didn't find anything on him. When I checked the census there didn't seem to be many Teasdales/ Teesdales in Tickhilll- like cousins etc living close by. Maybe because there weren't many males to carry on the name in the area. Sometimes you see several of the same name listed as they were living in the same neighbourhood. One lady actually said that James b 1743 stayed at Colsterdale Masham whearas William and Mary Smith began the Rosedale Teasdales. She says most began with Thomas 1600s of Ilton near Masham. Boy, there sure are a lot of Teasdales....
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I can't find George Teasdale after 1841. Perhaps he died or emigrated somewhere else. There is another Teasdale family who have a George of a similar age so maybe the birthdate I have been given is for the wrong George or perhaps it is census error. The other George was a miner and moved to Lancashire. Don't know if these 2 families are connected but seems likely. I'm interested in your Kemp connection. Generally if someone has Kemp as their middle name it would suggest a Kemp mother.
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Re the name Kemp.... Charles Kemp Teasdale was born the 10th child in South Australi and has mother Sarah Jacques ( with a c so we think) and William Teasdale ( brother to Mary Sarah and Ann). I am not sure where Sarah and her originated although it is thought she was born in London... found a marriage for her mother ( Sarah Whitaker) and father Robert b c 1786.... heaps of Whitakers so am not sure if Kemps are connected there.....
Another child Robert of same called his son Richard Kemp Teasdale who became a Anglican priest- went to England in early 1900s. Must have some significance, although am not sure what other than William's sister Ann- and Henry Jarvis and as was mentioned on your posts Mary Jarvis and Kemp. Maybe there is another family connection?
Re George b 1821 or 1828... have not been able to find anything about him at all. Perhaps he died young. Re George b 1796- and in the 1841 census- he died 1848... am not sure whre he as born as it didn;t say on the census but later censuses show the birthplace and Hannah ( Matthews) whom he married in 1815 Ecclesfield was born in Rawmarsh.
I am curious to know if George b 1796 was born in the area or came from somewhere else- also his father, siblings if any and mother but can't find anything. There are a heap of Teasdales around Sheffield but could find no others with a Tickhill listing other than their children.. Mary. Sarah, Anne .. and George
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I've just discovered an interesting thing, just a couple doors down from George and Hannah Teasdale is William Kemp as an apprentice butcher, Arthur Kemps father. The other Teasdale families that I think that may be related are in Silkstone, Cawstone , Bawtry and Wickersley Rawmarsh. One Edwin Teasdale was in London for a while before returning to Bawtry. These are all fairly close to each other. The source I had suggested that George in Tickhill was born in Sheffield. There are a number of Teasdales in Sheffield too. Certainly there is a George Teasdale baptised in the church of St Peter (Cathedral Sheffield) 15 Apr 1796 IGI which is presumably where my source got it from. George's parents were Thomas and Hannah. There is also a brother Charles baptised there Apr 1798.
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Hi Duckweed,
Re the Teasdales/ Teesdales of Tickhill and Sheffield. Can you perhaps tell me the source of the information you sent... is it from the LDS Family Search site? If it is-then I am not sure just how accurate it is re dates etc ...as I have found some inaccuracies in regard the other side of the family when I came upon it. Is good as a guide though. While I didn't have the exact dates of the Teasdales family births, I had the years and they seem to tallyquite well.So is the same family and we must be connected.
I noticed on the LDS that a Thomas Teasdale married a Hannah Longden 26 Nov 1793 at Rotherham. Could this be George's father and would you know how I could verify this? The date seems to fit so is a possibility however there could be more than one. You mentioned that Georges father was Thomas and his mother Hannah- any source for this?
You mentioned in your posts a certificate for Sarah Ann- daughter of Ann and Henry. Was this in the family or did you acquire it from the records office? Would welcome a copy and also of George and Hannah's.. any idea where I might be able to obtain this? Do you as descendants have anything you could share with me? To date I haven't found anyone else directly connected to the Teasdales of Tickhill. Would you have any idea as to the history regarding when they settled in Tickhill area and where they came from? There is a comment that while William b 1731 and wife Mary Smith 1732 resided at Rosedale his brother James b 1743 m Edith Chapman and son John 1787 settled at Colsterdale but they wouldn't fit if George's father was Thomas as he would have been born abt 1765-68. Any idea where Thomas and Hannah originated?
Interestingly if Hannah Longden is his wife there are two births I could find- one 24th July 1768 @ Doncaster - father Samuel and the other 27 th July 1774 @ Sheffield- father William. Of course there may be more not llsted.
By the way...I must say the Brightmore genealogy site you referred is very interesting. Many thanks for the reference. Really appreciate your help.:-[ :) :) It is so confusing! ???
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The certificate for Sarah Ann Jarvis and Richard Bullivant is from the records office.Registration of these records started in Sept 1837. All earlier records come from Parish records. At the moment Rotherham Records have come to me by a variety of sources. Although Rotherham is not far away I'm not able bodied so I'm still waiting for husband to take me there to look up the parish records myself and confirm them. One parish record Wickersley is not in the archives but still in the church and is not in good repair. Someone did make a copy I'm told but I haven't seen it. Rumours say there is one in Rotherham. I also use Sheffield Records Online where they have listed Rotherham marriages. There are 3 Teasdale marriages listed. To see them try http://sheffieldrecordsonline.org.uk. Sheffield Parish Records are easier for me to see as I live about 2 miles from the archives. I must admit as it is a branch for me I haven't done a lot yet to double check sources though most info has come from more than one source online so they may be subject to error. The Bullivant side has much more documentary evidence. I'll email you Sarah Ann Jarvis's wedding certificate.
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I note that the majority of Teasdales in the Rotherham district are miners as are the majority of Teasdales in Rosedale http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Transcriptions/NRYRosedale/RosedaleT2.html
I note also a William Teasdale who was a policeman in Rosedale. Wasn't there a Teasdale policeman in NSW? I don't think it's a huge leap to suppose there may be a link between Rosedale Teasdales and Tickhill Teasdales. I found a reference somewhere else to Birmingham Teasdales and Rosedale Teasdales but unfortunately the link to a family web page is now defunkt so can't investigate that further. I need to investigate further Mary Teasdale/Brightmore/Blunn as the information certainly seems in conflict. I remember being told that the Rotherham archives had several company lists for employees to Quarries and Mines. However Quarry workers were often employed on a more casual basis by a Quarry Master so that may come up blank. There are the mining Teasdales in Rawmarsh and Silkstone. Not sure if employee details would list place of origin. Looking at Parish records for marriage details may not throw up anything either as it depended on Clerk how much detail was put. Usually it only states present address not anything else and may not even state parents. If the parents are present as witnesses then obviously that would help. Pre 1837 is more pot luck than post registration. Before 1837 they did start standardising the frmat for recording marriages but it is still up to how conscientious the person recording was and how readable his handwriting and how well the church has looked after the records.
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Just found another Teasdale NSW connection under name Teasdel. Thomas Teasdale born 1755 died 1823 Wife Ann Gee 1757-1827 had daughter Hannah Teasdale born 1774 Holborn Middlesex (eg London) moved to NSW and died Richmond NSW 18 July 1821. try http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/batterbob/ft3.html May be no connection but thought you might find it interesting.
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Hi Duckweed... and followers ...More on the Kemps.
I have been trawling census records and have struck paydirt!
On the 1861 census there appeared the same William aged 33 b 1828 and wife Emma aged 32 daughter Annie E aged 11 b 1849/50, Charles b 1851 ( the Charles who is above and married Martha), William aged 7 b 1853, Emma aged 4 and Harriet aged 3. .. also William Booth an apprentice. Annie E and Charles have obviously left home come the 1871 census.
I have found census 1871 William Kemp 43 ( born 1828)of Tickhill and wife Emma 42 and children William aged 17 ( born 1853) , Emma aged 14, Harriet aged 13, Frederick aged 9 Alice aged 8 Fanny aged 6 Gertrude aged 4... plus a Sarah Ann Jarvis who was visiting! ( had to turn the page and found them on the very next page) Further down the page- a Charles Kemp aged 20 also at Westgate a butcher... wife Martha aged 22 and Alice Elizabeth a Daughter. 1 month.
Same William b 1853 appears in 1881 census aged 27 with wife Alice aged 29 , Edith aged 5 and Millicent aged 1. He is a cattle dealer in Doncaster but born in Tickhill.
I can't find any Arthur Kemp. Unless Arthur Kemp b 1873 is a son of William b 1828 and Emma I can't find him in the1881 census ( Arthur would be 8 years old) so may have died sometime in between 1871 and 1881.
These census records definitely link Ann Teasdale ( Jarvis) , Sarah Teasdale Stringer and the Kemps. Sarah Ann Jarvis- daughter of Ann and Henry Jarvis appears on the 1871 census as residing with William and Emma Kemp.
Perhaps there is also a family or marriage connection between the Teasdales and the Kemps other than neighbours but I am yet to find that one!
Re Robert Kemp: On the 1841 census there appears a Robert aged 3 ( b 1838- Mother Mary aged 40 and sister Emma aged 5 at Westgate Tickhill.
Robert b Tickhill then appears on the 1861 census and again on the 1881 census as a butcher married to Angelina with Children William, Mary, Charles, Robert b 1871 , Fanny, Emma Jane. However on the same page in the 1881 census appears Robert aged 12 b 1871 and Arthur born 1873 aged 10 staying with Mary Thompson head of house aged 62. I would suggest that Robert and Arthur are perhaps brothers-( Arthur would not have been born at time of the 1871 census) and perhaps Mary is the grandmother? All are residing in Maltby. Both Robert and son William are butchers. ;D
I am still to find out about Mary Teasdale- Ann and Sarah's sister and George on the 1841 census and whether he was a brother or not and what happened to him given I can't find anything else on him.
Keep smiling! :)
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Just found another Teasdale NSW connection under name Teasdel. Thomas Teasdale born 1755 died 1823 Wife Ann Gee 1757-1827 had daughter Hannah Teasdale born 1774 Holborn Middlesex (eg London) moved to NSW and died Richmond NSW 18 July 1821. try http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/batterbob/ft3.html May be no connection but thought you might find it interesting.
Don't think she is one of ours.....but not to say she isn't connected in some way, but she came as a convict so I think from memory long before our William came to Australia. He came as part of a Government settlement program.
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Hi Duckweed,
Thre are a few Kemps from Tickhill- including those I mentioned last post.
Also found a Ruth Kemp ( b 1781) on 1851 and 1861 censuses. Husband George ( b 1776) appears on the 1851 but not the 1861. They are at Northgate in 1851 and Market place in 1861 Tickhill. He was a shoemaker.
George b 1815( who could well be the son but as he does not appear on a census as a child- too early is hard to tell) married Emma and had children John b 1848 and Ann 1844. John Kemp 1801 m Mary b 1799 and is the father of Robert b 1838 ( re last post I sent) and a butcher in later censuses.
William 1828 married Emma as per the last post with reference to Sarah Ann Jarvis staying with them at time of census.
Many are in the butchering trade in the area.
Also...Found a William Kemp b1818 aged 43 on the 1861 census -a grocer in Hulme who came from Yorkshire- Leeds- not sure if he is related. Had wife Ann and Children William Kirkland Kemp b 1853 and an older son as his wife Mary Marriner aged 20 staying with them and appears on the census.
William Kemp b 1854 Tickhill a cattle dealer- wife Alice born Tickhill, Daughter Edith born Tickhill aged 5 in 1881, Millicent aged 1. They are at Doncaster- 69 Nelson St.
Most seem to link up except the William in Hulme... and Joseph Kemp b 1778 married to wife Mary b 1780 - a farmer- but could be brother of George b 1776 and married to Ruth. Joseph and Mary had Malin b 1810, Robert b 1812 @ Tickhill and Henry b 1818/ 1819 ( Would have been about the same age as my Willliam Teasdale. Henry was a butcher. Interestingly so was William here in Australia.
Malin married Ann b 1825 and had Catherine b 1849 and Alice b 1851 according to the census information. Malin was a gardner.
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Thanks for all the info. I'm going to look at the Leeds Kemp angle as the Bullivants had relatives in Leeds too so maybe the link is not in Tickhill but in Leeds. Haven't had access to the internet for a week so am having to do a lot of catching up. If you have any family in the Leeds area this is a good site to look up. http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk and http://www.yorkshireindexers.co.uk/forums The Yorkshire BMD also covers Hull and York.
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Hi Duckweed,
I have had another search re the Kemps and been mapping them yesterday given it was a cold windy day and was sa good activity to complete curled up in front of the fire. Have found on the census a George Kemp b 1776 Tickhill married to a Ruth Kemp b 1781. He was a shoemaker and had sons John b 1801 m Mary? and George b 1815 m Emma ( so it seems anyway on piecing this together). They had an Emma b 1826 and a Robert b 1838. John b 1801 was missing off the 1841 census with just Mary and the little ones aged about 5 and 3 so would say he may have died. Robert married an Angelina and had many children William b 1860, Mary 1861, Fanny 1862, Emma 1863/4 ,Charles 1869/70, Lily Angeline b 1868, Robert 1871, Arthur 1873- whom I assume is the Arthur you are talking about and is connected to Sarah Stringer as the apprentice and Ann Jarvis
In the 1881 census Robert and Arthur appear on the same page as the rest of the family but are staying with Mary Thompson. Am wondering who she is and what her connection is- perhaps robert's wife's mother???
I think Joseph Jarvis b 1778 a farmer may be George's brother. He married Mary Jarvis b 1780 ( as mentioned in one of the posts. I can't find who she is and how she related to Henry Jarvis who married our Anne.
Joseph Kemp and Mary had Malin b 1809, Robert b 1812 and Henry Kemp1818/19 ( a butcher).
On a census of Ann and Henry Jarvis appears a Mary Jarvis b about 1824 listed as a dairymaid , plus a Catherine b 1852 and a John b 1861. A guess suggests she may be Henry's sister or sister in law if she has two children unless they are Ann and Henrys, however they appear unser her name and I would assume that their children are listed above her and under Anna and Henry that the children appearing under Mary are hers.
I am currently looking for Jarvises and have found another Henry born 1826 but he married a Mary Taylor. They are at Rotherham. His father was John b 1784 married Charlotte Ellis and his father a John b 1756 a slater m Elizabeth Coe. I don;t know of they are connected to Henry who married our Anne Teasdale. There were Jarvises at Tickhill... resising at the Draper's shop in 1891. Walter 43, Catherine 43 , George 18, Walter Malin 17 ( interesting as Joseph and Mary b 1780 at Tickhill had son Malin so perhaps these are their grandkids- ) Herbert Samuel 15, Thomas 14,William Salman 12, Arthur Stanley 9 Catherine Millicent 6 Alfred Joshua 5 and betty Agatha 2.
There may be some other link between the Kemps and the Teasdales. Arthur Kemp as the apprentice is listed as a nephew so perhaps one of Henry's sisters was married to a Kemp, but I have yet to find his siblings . As he was born 1826 he would be about 15 years of age in 1841 census.
A William Kemp was born 1818 Tickhill ( not sure if he is a brother of John b 1801 or George b 1815, the shoemaker. He is a millwright , married an Ann b 1819 and had a son William b 1854 who late rlived in Hulme. He married a Charlotte b 1861 and adopted a son William b 1888.Seems they moved to London and Manchester.
I recall seeing a George in Hulme also who was a grocer on a census.
William Kemp b 1828 ( as distinct from the one born 1818 above) married an Emma ? b 1829 and all their children as I said appeared on a census with Sarah Ann Jarvis staying with them on the 1871 census so she must be connected. Am not sure how he connects with the other Kemps of Tickhill- Robert b 1838 the butcher who had Arthur. Perhaps Emma his wife was a Jarvis and sister to Henry. Will have to cehck that one out.
Chat to you soon- Bronnie
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Looked up some family trees and one suggests the Mary Teasdale who married Joseph Brightmore was in fact a widow and was originally named Mary Shaw. Husband has promised me a trip to Rotherham Archives if I can book a spot. Don't know what I will find as it takes a long time to go through Parish records but we can but hope.
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Here's three sites you may not know about.
1 . surname profiler that shows you how your surname is distributed.
http://nationaltrustnames.org.uk
2. maps of the UK in 1840. Our area is under Derbyshire and Notts strangely enough.
http://archivemaps.com/mapco/lewis/lewis065htm
3. Trade directories Tells you a lot about the area but needs a lot of patience to search through. http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
4. IGI parish records a little more accurate than Family Search though there may be transcription errors. Also records are incomplete as depended on what researcher had available to transcribe.
http://freepages.geneaology.rootsweb.ancestry.com/-hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm
Hope these help
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I think I have worked out where Arthur Kemp comes in. Hannah Matthews who married George Teasdale had a sister Mary who married a Charles Kemp in Tickhill in 19 Jun 1821. Mary and Charles had a son Robert who married Angelina and there in 1881 is Arthur Kemp down as a visitor. Either he is a nephew of a brother I can't find or else the ennumerator was mistaken as Robert the son is also down as visiting. Obviously I need to find Arthur's birth certificate to establish parents for sure, but there is the Kemp connection anyway.
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Hi Duckweed,
Good work!! You are an absolute wizard! The thought had crossed my mind!!!! Makes absolute sense! Didn't know anything about Hannah's family though or who her siblings were!! Was it Charles Kemp or John as I figured George and Ruth having son John b 1801 who married a Mary ?, who had Robert b 1838 and Emma. Robert marrying Angelina Parkinson in Dec 1858 ( found record on BDMs)... and having Arthur Kemp b 1873 ( I think he was the youngest of all the kids in the family. I could have misread it though. I wonder who Mary Thompson as i thought perhaps she may have been Angelina's mother. Unless she remarried given the name doesn't match.
Thing is if it is a Charles was he a brother of John b 1801 and also a George b 1819? Don't know the names of the sons of George Kemp 1776 the shoemaker and Ruth as the 1841 census is many years later. That would make Mary Matthews, Hannah's sister, the grandmother of Arthur
Robert who married Angelina also had a son Robert born 1871.. and they both appear on the 1891 census as down the street from the rest of the family staying with Mary Thompson.
I wonder what other exciting info will come out of the woodwork!!
Good work 99!
Bronhill
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Hi Duckweed,
If it was Charles then explains why William named one of his children Charles Kemp Teasdale!
Bingo!
Bronnie
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This is what I've got so far. Obviously I'm going to have to check Parish records myself to confirm it, and maybe a few certificates too. Hannah Matthews was baptised in Rawmarsh 27th May 1792, Her father was William Matthews probable baptism 18th Aug 1768 Rawmarsh. He turns up in Tickhill in 1851 as father in law to Kemp family including Mary Kemp. It lists her as a wife but no husband on scene. Look back at Parish records and find there is a Mary Matthews born to William baptised 20 Mar 1796 in Rawmarsh. Then in the Tickhill records there is a Marriage of a Mary Matthews to a Charles Kemp. I think the family was not very good at remembering ages. This is usually a sign of illiteracy in my experience. I've ordered Henry Jarvis's marriage certificate so that will tell me a bit more about the family. I obviously now have to do more work on the Kemp family now I have established the link. I note the Jarvis family is never far away from the Kemps. Maybe its a case of marrying the girl next door.
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I think this is a little more interwoven. Looked up Tickhill baptisms on IGI couldn't find Charles but have come up with a Robert Jarvis Kemp baptised 21 Aug 1812 to Joseph and Mary in Tickhill. Marriage Joseph Kemp to Mary Jarvis 26 Jun 1808 in Tickhill. Can't get how Joseph Kemp links in with other Kemps but I'm pretty sure he does.
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I wonder if Joseph Kemp was Charles Kemp's brother and possibly John Kemp's too. Their father being John Kemp? My minds spinning at the moment so maybe I should take a break and wait till I get to Archives. William Kemp born 1829 would appear to be Robert Kemp 1838s brother but I haven't confirmed it yet.
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Hi Duckweed.... :) :) :)??? Now I am confused! On looking at the censuses I found a George b 1776 married to a Ruth b 1781. it seemed they had a couple of sons- one a John b 1801 who married a Mary ( which I thought could be Mary Matthews )- then a George a shoemaker same as his father George. Younger George married an Emma b 1819-1865.
Mary appeared on an 1841 census with son Robert b 1838 who married Angelina ( son Arthur Kemp ) and daughter Emma b 1836.
It seemed that old George b 1776 may have had brother Joseph b 1778 ( unless a cousin perhaps)> Joseph married Mary Jarvis and thet had Malin 1809, Robert 1812 a farmer, Henry b 1818 a butcher, who married a Catherine 1825 about1848. They had Mary 1849, Walter 1852, and Ellen 1862 - perhaps more I don't know as didn't find any other censuses.
That's just how it seemed to fit to me but maybe it isn't quite on the mark and I have crossed my wires- gets a bit complex after a while. :-\ Anyway.... will be interesting to see what the records reveal!
Chat soon.... there is a dust storm brewing here. Yet it is flooding on the north coast and Queensland with a third of the annual rainfall in less than a day!!!We aren't getting a drop! :'( :'(
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This site has been offline all morning. Anyway found that Rosedale and Tickhill both belonged to Duke of Norfolk who was also lord of the Manor of Sheffield too. Yes I know you'd think Norfolk would be in Norfolk but that's the aristocracy for you. The duke of Norfolks family name is Howard. Rosedale Abbey is next to Castle Howard. Arundel Castle another home of the Howards/Norfolks was restored by John Teasdale the Duke of Norfolk's Master Stone Mason. John Teasdale is also down as in Wellburn on the Castle Howard Estate as quarrying there. It does say John Teasdale comes from York. If our family of Teasdales were on Norfolk estates there could quite possibly be mentions of the family eg tenancy agreements, payroll, etc.. I believe the Estate records for the Norfolks are quite extensive. A lot of records were found in Arundel Castle and I know these records are available in Sheffield Archives so could be some interesting searching.
I agree the records are confusing about Kemps Jarvis etc.. which is why I want to look at marriage records in particular in the archive as well as working out where Joseph came from and his relationship to Robert. My brother said to me try and copy as much as possible as you never know when other information there becomes relevant. I'll try my best.
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Well after 2 archives I think the Teasdales are a little clearer, the Jarvis family less clear and the Kemps are still confusing me. George Teasdale was a stableman at Tickhill Castle. I assume that is the estate with the castle in it because I don't think the castle would be used by then as most castles were decomissioned by Parliament after the Civil War. The marriage certifcate for Henry Jarvis is in an independent chapel in Bawtry. This may cause problems as its harder to get a look at dissenter churches. The burial record of George Teasdale's makes his birthdate as 1793. I don't know if this is just an error or the George Teasdale I have is the wrong one. I will have to investigate this further. I found I had the wrong father for Henry Jarvis as I now know his parents to be William and Mary. I couldn't find William and Mary's marriage in the register or William's birth so I'm going to have to do some more searching. I need to look at Maltby records for the Kemps. I couldn't find details of the Brightmore Teasdale marriage in Tickhill so will have to look in Sheffield and Catcliffe. Don't know what happened to George Teasdale junior either. There is a George about the right age in America. Could he have decided to try his luck in America? I noted the name Eliza Jarvis as a witness to Henry Jarvis and Ann Teasdales wedding. I didn't find any record of her birth in Tickhill so there's another person I have to find. There doesn't appear to be any Teasdales in the church register till Mary's birth in 1816 so it looks like they were the first to move there. There are many Teasdales in Sheffield though so they are not the first Teasdales in the area. I will have to look more closely at the Teasdales in Sheffield and see if I can find a connection.
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I've had a lot of fun researching but I still haven't found for sure who Arthur Kemp is except that he is a genuine cousin as there are clear Jarvis/Kemp/Teasdale connections. Henry Jarvis's family is from Nottinghamshire. I don't know if the other Jarvis families are related. There are also Edwin and John Teasdale that I think are probably connected. In particular John Teasdale the saddler living in Bawtry, where Henry Jarvis married Anne Teasdale in 1848. A saddler is after a related occupation to a Stableman. There seems to be a number of leather working Teasdales dotted about the area. We seem to have 3 groups of workers, butchers/farmers/estate workers. (Henry Jarvis was also a groom ) leather workers, shoemakers saddlers, and 3rd stone masons. I think I will have to buy Arthur's birth certificate to establish parents. I wasn't going to before because I hadn't established he wasn't just a relative in name only. And where did Arthur go after his apprenticeship finished?
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I hope you got details of site I found about Tickhill Castle Farm. Apparently the Lumleys were fond of horse racing so George Teasdales job as Stableman makes him a man who would have to be better than the average as Tickhill was a major stud farm and he would be dealing with very valuable race horses. Of course Doncaster is not far away and races are still run there. If he broke horses he would be very important but still probably not paid a lot. I imagine they kept copious records about the stud and the employees.
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Found a few more things now. Established that Arthur Kemp is Robert and Angelina Kemp's son Born 6th August 1872. Robert Kemp is not born in Rawmarsh but is in IGI parish records as baptised 24 Sept 1837 Tickhill, father Charles Kemp. Robert Jarvis Kemp is the child of Joseph Kemp and Mary Jarvis. I can't find details to establish whether Robert Kemp and Joseph Kemp are related
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Followed a hunch and found Charles Kemp as a valet to Richard G Lumley in London in 1841 and in Leicestershire with him in 1851. Charles is put as born 1798 in Thursby Nottinghamshire. No such place as Thursby but there is a stately home Thorseby Hall, Parish church Perlethorpe. Parish records do indeed show a Charles Kemp baptised 7th Dec 1797 to Robert and Ann Kemp. Robert and Ann are to be found in 1841 in Nottinghamshire in Edwinstowe (near Thoresby) as Kump. Charles sister Lucy Kemp turns up in London as servant to Lady Lowther. Charles Siblings were Lucy born 1813, Frances born abt 1812, Elisabeth baptised 6 Nov 1801, Ann Baptised 28 May 1804. Found marriage in parish records 17 Jul 1794 Perlethorpe Robert Kemp married Ann Flethcher. 1851 census when Ann is widowed shows Ann was born in 1769 in Perlethorpe. The 1841 census gives Robert Kemps birth year as 1761. It's not very clear to me if Robert was born in Nottinghamshire. The Lumleys Stately Home is Sandbech Park in Maltby.
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I think Charles Kemp explains the link between Sarah Jaques and the Teasdales. Sarah Jacques worked in the same district Charles Kemps sister worked and where Charles Kemp visted with his master so I think you are probably right that there was some connection between the Teasdales and the Jaques before Australia. Who knows maybe George and sons came up with his Lumley masters to inspect a racehorse or collect one for the Tickhill Stud. Henry Jarvis also worked as a groom in Sheffield. The connecting themes seem to be in service for nobility and working with animals.
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Hi Duckweed,
Am glad you agrre with my line of thinking that they knew each other. I workedon the premise that in those days girls just did not go out with just anybody- but that most were family friends and connections. In some instances the parents set up suitors- when the daughter turned 20 0r 21 they would have someone in mind or invite contacts so they could meet potential beaus.
They would be either neighbours or good friends perhaps from a family of good character and reputation. Such as the fathers worked together at the same job.
What would be good is to find out more about the Jacques but it was even more common a name! Although they all perhaps may have originated from the one or two brothers who emigrated from France. I have seen a Jacques Genealogy Tree- a Louis who went to Canada and from whom a huge line of descendants stemmed but also a Robert and a Guillaume who fled to Scotland. I wouldsay they then moved down into north Yorkshire ( or even Ireland) from there.
Am not sure ???where to start looking for this lot as I have not been able to confirm births in the UK. Have evenless info on them from the family annuls than from the others. I did find on the Family Search website a birth record for Sarah b 1819 ( parents Robert and Sarah) plus one for a Robert although one had his birthdate as 1807 which couldn't be right as we have it as 1809 from records here which fits in with a marriage of a robert and Sarah nee Whitaker in 1808. However have drawn a blank with Charlotte, Thomas and William. William could be a cousin rather than brothers. I am guessing that William was born around 1810 or 1811 as he arrived with Robert in 1836 whereas Thomas arrived a couple of years later in 1838 with Sarah and Robert's wife. Had he been older he would have surely come out with the other men. I think at the time of arrival he was a teenager and therefore born about 1821 ( younger than Sarah). Also he was a bit later in marrying ( about 15 years after Robert and about 5 years after Sarah married William T.
I know definitely there was a Charlotte, ( name appears on marriage certificate); Robert b 1809, William, Sarah and Thomas ( also a witness at the marriage) . All came to Australia in 1836 and 1838.
Anyway, something might turn up.
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I suspect the history of the Jaques is like the Kemps that is they didn't just come over at one time, some came over just after the Norman conquest to set up wauk mills (treating wool cloth) and introducing their weaving techniques. Others came over at the time of the hugenot purges (these would be early protestants). Many hugenots did go to Scotland where they would find sympathy and understanding. I know my family name Bullivant is given as a Hugenot name and like the Jaques there were many Bullivants in the Loire Valley and like the Kemps there were also those from Brugge and on the French side Amien and Picardy. I think there probably is the same history for all three families. They were probably all involved in cloth production. The Bullivants and Jaques are to be found early on in Leicester. Many moved up from there through Lincolnshire to Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, and Derbyshire. It's difficult to trace any family before 1837 but you could look for someone who is doing a one name study on the name Jaques. I think probably the first thing is to build up a picture of the Jaques in the London area. There is an American hugenot site (can't remember its address right now) but it may give you info on some hugenot Jaques. There is a Hugenot church in Spittalfields in London. I don't know if their parish records are available online. I registered with GeneaNet which is a French geneaology site and this has been good for finding out how the name Bullivant was distributed in France and the Lowlands. Worth having a look and it costs you nothing to register.
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I've been doing some googling, trying to find out who would be at 25 Portman Square to employ Sarah Jaques. I found a letter in the archives from an E H Eyre to the Duke of Norfolk. The correspondent lived at 25 Portman Square in 1830s. The correspondent turned out to be Anthony Hardolph Eyre. His daughter Mary Leticia Eyre married the Earl of Manvers who owned land in Nottingham. In fact his daughter died at Thoresby Park in 1860 (where Charles Kemp was born) His other daughter Frances Julia Eyre married into the Vernon family who had connections to Sheffield and Nottinghamshire. Interesting don't you think?
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;) ;)
Hi Duckweed.... 8)Ahhhaaa the plot thickens!!! Me thinks there is possibly some connection here. I was just reading up about Lumley of Tickhill castle and the Earls of Scarborough. Richard George- son of Frederick Lumley Savile of Tickhill Castle. I would imagine Frederick would have been employer to both Charles Kemp and George Teasdale in the early 1800s. Frederick would have been their vintage- born 1788 and died 1837..... Richard was born1813-1884 so same vintage as William Teasdale.
The Lumleys go way back to mid 1600s and the first Richard was the 1st earl of Scarborough.
These Lumleys also had links with Lumley Castle at Durham, so am wodnering if ther Teasdales originated there?
I found another interesting article citing one of the Lumley connections Charles Lumley Hill, the son of Lady Frances Charlotte Arabella who was the daughter of Frederick Lumley and grandaughter of the 4th Earl of scarborough ...(she married Colonel Charles Hill colonel of the Hussars( . This Charles Lumley Hill ( b 1840 died 1909 at Esk Qld) emigrated to Australia and resided in SA at Port Augusta and later Queensland. He was born at Tickhill Castle- another link or mere co-incidence??
He was a grazier cattle breeder.This Charles emigrated in 1863 and had some experience on a station in SA the moved to Queensland where he became the manager of Northampton Downs. He was also a politician.In 1882 he sold his properties and returned to England but a yera later returned to Australia and once agaiin one a seat in parliament ( Qld) . Later he continued his cattle breeding as a grazier.
Perhaps they had connections here in Australia- would be interesting to know what enticed Charles to come to Australia and who he knew here that came from Tickhill other than our William?
Will investigate further
Interestingly, Charles Kemp Teasdale- son of William and Sarah Jacques, was born at Mt Remarkable South Australia 1858 but died in Cloncurry Queensland 1940
Bronnie
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Yes I believe Lumley Castle is theirs. I saw the article on Charles Lumley Hill and guessed he was related to the earl but hadn't followed it up. I don't know where the Kemp/Jarvis connection comes in if at all. Kemp in Tickhill goes a long way so although Charles may be connected it isn't necessarily true. The William Kemp who has Sarah Ann Jarvis in his household is Robert Kemp's brother or Charles Kemp's son.
To lay it out again William Matthews Rawmarsh 1768 (baptism records and census 1841 and 1851) had 2 daughters Hannah Matthews 1792 and Mary Matthews. Parish records confirm that Hannah married George Teasdale and Mary married Charles Kemp. Also have birth certificate for Robert Kemp which also confirms parents Charles Kemp (occupation Butler for Richard Lumley-Saville) and Mary Matthews. William Matthews is found with daughter Mary in both 1841 and 1851 census. Husband Charles is not present at either census as he is with his master, in 1841 he is in St James Place in London, and in 1851 he is at Belvoir Castle in Leicestershire which his master was visiting. We know from the 1851 census Charles was born in Thoresby and baptised at local church Perlethorpe (parish records).
Sarah Jaques was said to be servant at 25 Portman Square. Correspondence in Archive puts A H Eyre in that place about 1837. A H Eyre turns out to be Anthony Hardolph Eyre. His daughter Mary Leticia Eyre married the Earl of Manvers whose family home was Thoresby Park.
So there is definitely a connection between Charles Kemp and Sarah Jaques. We also know that George Teasdale apart from marrying Mary's sister was a stableman/horse breaker at Tickhill Castle Farm which was a stud farm for the Earl of Carlisle's race horses. So both Charles Kemp and George Teasdale were working for Richard Lumley-Saville and as they were also brother in laws obviously knew each other quite well. Charles sister Lucy was servant to Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square (not that far from Sarah Jaques) Was one of the Kemps a matchmaker for William? It really makes interesting reading doesn't it?
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Sorry I saw one part wasn't clear I meant the Joseph Kemp marrying Mary Jarvis. I don't know if that is connected to our Kemps and Jarvises. I certainly haven't found any connection for Joseph Kemp as he is born in Tickhill at the time when Charles and parents were in Thoresby. I don't know where Charles Kemps father comes from as the 1841 census was unclear as to whether he was from Nottinghamshire originally and he died before 1851 census. The only Mary Jarvis I have is too young and in any case her family was also in Nottinghamshire at the critical times so it might just be a strange coincidence.
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Hi Duckweed ::) Gosh it can be such a web of intrigue at times!!! ::)
Am trying to process too much information!!! And if I step into another part of the family, find more links and intrigue!!!
Talk about getting bogged down. What I find most confusing at times is when they have the same name- for example I noted two Robert Kemps... one born 1812 and the other born 1838 who married Angelina.There were obviously also two or more Charles Kemps.
For example :The Robert 1812 who appeared on a census 1841 aged 29 had father Joseph b 1778 aged 63, Mary wife aged 61 b 1780; Malin aged 32 b 1809, Robert 1812 and Henry . 22 b 1818 ( a butcher).
( I noted than the name Malin appeared again in another census as a child of someone....and being such an unusual name must have had a connection but I didn't print if off or note it as I was trying not to stray to far and wide away from the task at hand and get bogged down. I can't recall what census it was now but when i join up again will have to take a look! I think from memory that this Malin listed above married as well and had kids in a later census even though in the 1841 census he was still residing with the parents! Maybe he married late.
This is very interesting about 25 Portman Square and Sarah Jacques as a servant. And just how she ( perhaps family) comes to be associated with Charles Kemp- although it makes sense that it could be by association through employment but I don't envisage a valet chatting up a female servant in those times???.
The notes that a cousin had in her file had her her being employed at 95 Gloucester Place, Portman Square. After all there were a few misprints. So, that could be an error or then again she may have worked in more than one place who knows.
I had a look yesterday at Portman Square area 1800s and it seems as you say, very upmarket where all the Earls and Barons lived- didn't hit on no 25 though.
I wasn't aware of the Charles Kemp not being on the 1841 census in St James Place London and 1851 in Belvoir castle. The only one I sighted him on- whatever that was as I didn't take much note given he wasn't linked at that time to Mary - but I do recall this Charles as as valet just no particulars.
It is always possible as well that there is a double link between Jarvises and Kemps- like an early one and a later one- has happened in some of my family here through marriages- siblings and the like .
More interesting is who was this Sarah Jacques if she is connected to Charles Kemp and how....and who was her family exactly and what connection did they have to the Kemps?? Where did she originate and whether her parents always resided London or came from Nottingham or somewhere.
The Thorseby Park sets a common place but now am wondering what the commonality is.. although if her parents married and lived in Marylebone and Charles was working in St James Place London in 1841, perhaps they had links through the people where they worked or perhaps Charles knew Sarah's father through his work or perhaps the Kemps in Thorseby had connections with the Earl of Manvers and his lot?
I found some Jacques in Leicester on censuses but none seemed to fit directly, although I thought at the time they could be possibly related- like cousins. Also one fellow I connected with thru Genes Reunited some time , who resides near Sheffield ( Connisborough?) said it is possible but didn't have any info on a Sarah in his tree. He had a Sarah Whitaker ( brother James?? from whom he stems) in his lineage born abt the same time in relation to Sarah Whitaker ( who married a Robert Jacques Marylebone 1808) and supposedly had our Sarah).
Tis like a huge jigsaw.
Did you happen to find anything about the Kemps pre 1800 from Tickhill-George Kemp b 1781 and wife Ruth that turned up on the censuses- John b 1801, and Mary 1799. I didn't find too many Kemps born Tickhill prior to 1800 in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I think I need to create some sort of summary sheet and any info I find re those with same name - to put it on it!!
If Charles Kemp was born Thorseby. I wonder if or how the Tickhill Kemps are linked other than through the Castle?
Kemps live in the same neighbourhood in Tickhill as George and Hannah Teasdale; Charles from Thorseby works at the Castle along with George T and, married to sister , Mary, of wife Hannah. Charles sister, Lucy Kemp also a servant to a Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square. Sarah Jacques would then know the daughter Mary Leticia Eyre, ( about the same age???)who is married to the Earl of Manvers as she is working for her father. This Earl comes from Thorseby Park..... so how well does he know the Kemps from Thoresby???? How does Sarah meet William- son of George T? Thinking.......thinking...what have we got in common here......horses... groomsman.... valets.... servants... Earls and castles..... At the races???? Perhaps The Ascot races??? What a venue ... Ahh pure supposition!!!
Am off to brew up and ponder all this- and mull it over!!!
Bronnie :)
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It is documented that the Kemp family first came to Tickhill in 1330 from belgium at the invitation of the lord of the manor to set up a cloth industry there so Kemp in Tickhill goes back a long way.
My thought was maybe Robert Jaques was in service like Charles Kemp but the only Robert Jaques and Sarah I could find were from Essex and in Yorkshire. Robert is down as a gamekeeper.
I have in marriage records for Marylebone a Robert Jacques married a Sarah Wittaker 20 June 1808. There is an IGI entry that puts Robert as born 1783 and Sarah as 1787 but as there is no evidence given for this assertion I will take this with a pinch of salt.
Has anyone got the marriage certificate for Sarah Jaques and William Teasdale? I'm not sure what was the practice in Australia in those days. Marriage certificates in Britain list father of bride and his occupation even if he isn't present.
It often states if the father is deceased at the time of marriage.
Charles Kemp and Mary Matthews were married 19 Jun 1821 in Tickhill.
I found 5 children in the Parish records
Ann 1822
Charles 1825
William 1827
Emma 1834
Robert 1837
Robert and Emma are in the 1841 census with mother and grandfather William Matthews. Some family trees have mixed up John and Mary Kemp with Charles and Mary Kemp because there is no husband present in 1841 and 1851 but I know I am correct because I have documents and parish records to back it up.
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Been doing another sweep of the Scarborough/Lumley family in 1841 and found 2 members living in Portman Square, an Elderly Lady under name of Scarborough with a younger companion named Lumley. Number of house is uncertain. There is a 94 pencilled at the top left hand of the census sheet. I don't know what that refers to.
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The more I look the more complex it gets. There are several noble families intertwined by marriage and their lands are also intertwined. The Eyre family who married into the Manvers family had an estate called Grove. This is near Retford. The Manvers family estates are many and include a mine in Wath upon Dearne and others near Tickhill. Ordsall the birthplace of William Jarvis and Clarborough the birthplace of his wife are also part of Retford but originally De Busli land and hence connected to Tickhill and the Lumley Savilles. Manvers and the Duke of Portland and the Eyres are all connected by marriage. Likewise the Manvers the Savilles the Duke of Portland and the Duke of Norfolk are also interconnected by marriage. A lot of these connections started with Elisabeth of Hardwick who married well 4 times and became the righest woman in England. In order to become more powerful her children and her husbands children intermarried making in effect one family. De Busli was William the Conquerors righthand man. As a reward he was given huge tracts of land including the manor of Tickhill and Blyth. One of the Busli family became Sheriff of Scarborough. Along with lands De Busli owned were the royal lands and forests which De Busli held in Stewardship for the King. De Busli's family died out and the lands were redistributed amongst royal favourites who became these powerful families. The question is were our families generations of old family retainers or simply moving between these areas because the roads were better and travel easier?
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I forgot to say that there is a useful website to read.
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/piercy1828/grove1.htm
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Here's what I found about the Kemps.
Charles Kemp born Perlethorpe Thoresby baptised 1797
other siblings
Elisabeth baptised 6 Nov 1801
Ann Baptised 24 May 1804
Martha Kemp 1808
Robert Kemp 1810
Lucy Kemp
Frances Kemp 1814
Parents Robert Kemp about 1761 (not Nottinghamshire) In 1841 census as Kump in Perlethorpe died July quarter 1847
Married to Ann Fletcher (Perlethorpe abt 1769 ) married Perlethorpe Church 17 July 1794
Perlethorpe is the estate village and church for Thoresby Hall so likely that anyone married or baptised there is related to estate workers.
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This is the Jarvis side.
Father of Henry Jarvis
William Jarvis baptised 17 Feb 1788 Ordsall near Retford Nottinghamshire
wife Mary Jarvis baptised 1784 Clarborough near Retford Nottinghamshire
married 16 May 1808 Ordsall Nottinghamshire
1st son William Jarvis born Oct 1808 Ordsall Notts (looks like they married in haste)
No others found in Ordsall.
Mary Jarvis baptised Tickhill 9th May 1823 (birthplace Stancil)
Henry Jarvis baptised Tickhill 7th May 1826.
William and Mary found in Scrooby in 1841 but no children with them
This is where I'm not sure of solid ground all the way through but from Parish baptismal records we have William and probably siblings
John 18th April 1783 Ordsall
George 23 Mar 1790 Ordsall
Martha 18 Mar 1798 Ordsall
Mary 13 Nov 1785 Ordsall
Ann 17 Jun 1792 Ordsall
Elisabeth 16 Apr 1781 Ordsall
Milly 15 Mar 1801 Ordsall
Sarah Jarvis 28 Oct 1795 Ordsall
No marriage recorded at Ordsall
IGI and family tree record marriage of William Jarvis and Ann Wheeler 18th Nov 1781 Nottingham St Mary's Church I'm not sure about this. It would mean they were married after first child born which is possible but then they went back to Nottingham to have 2nd child Sarah who was born in 1783 and died in 1784 at the same time as they were baptising John at Ordsall in 1783. I know its not far away but think there are 2
William and Ann couples (common enough name especially in the area) Of the 8 likely siblings I have only traced Milly so far who appears to have married a William Hirst on the 6th May 1822 in Ordsall and their first child William born in 1829 Armthorpe died in Doncaster in 1888. I haven't traced the rest yet though IGI is insisting they are in Nottingham I haven't found any other evidence. They may be right but I am a cynic when it comes to IGI. I need more proof.
So we need to know if a Jarvis from Ordsall went to Tickhill and had a daughter Mary who married Joseph Kemp.
Or that Robert Kemp father of Charles is related to Joseph Kemp. I think this means going further back in the Tickhill Parish records.
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Sorry missed out Lucy Kemps records
20 April 1817 Perlethorpe
Anyway hope that clarifys things a bit.
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I am also looking at a Kemp family who were butchers in Sheffield and have looked at all your postings with great interest.
I have John Kemp b 1821 Sheffield son of John Kemp, butcher. I have tried to follow all the Kemps in Sheffield into the 1700s. As there are very few, the family lines are quite easy to follow but the family are definitely moving to and from Sheffield from elsewhere. I thought that perhaps they were not originally from Sheffield and that some lines moved there for work and were going back "home" to stay with relatives. I just hadn't worked out where "home" was. I think now it might be Tickhill. For example I can find no birth for the John Kemp who is supposedly the butcher. I wonder if you have found him for me, born in Tickhill in 1801?
I had got the marriage of Robert Kemp and Angelina Parkinson on 8 Nov 1858 in Cathedral St Peter, Sheffield. Had you noticed that, on the same day, in the same place, Emma Kemp married William Parkinson? - presumably this was two lots of siblings.
Anyway, you may want to look toward Sheffield if you find yourself missing any baptisms or marriages in the Kemp line in the 1700s. There are definitely some non-conformists too.
I would love to hear from you if you have any more information that could link our lines.
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Thanks I hadn't seen the double marriage. I'm not sure where if at all my Kemps fit with yours because the ones that are the same date as your John Kemps are actually born on the Manvers estate in Nottinghamshire at Perlethorpe. However it does seem too much of a coincidence that both your Kemps and my Kemps are involved in Butchery. Have you tried looking at the Duke of Westmorland's estates and see if there is a connection through service to this family. I don't have any John Kemps in my family. Have you any Robert Kemps? I will have a closer look at my Tickhill notes. The Kemp family goes back centuries at Tickhill in any case as they were weavers brought over by De Busli in the 11th century but it also means the name crops up wherever there is a major cloth industry such as Nottingham.
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I have tried to map all the Sheffield Kemps and come up with two lines which, at present, don't connect. One has butchers and tailors (I guess this is mine) and the other has cutlers.
I think my line goes John 1821 (tailor) - John 1780 (butcher) - Thomas 1750 (butcher) m Mary Sylvester - John (tailor) m Mary Worrall (I have other Worral/Kemp links too).
The other line goes back to Robert (hardwareman) who had numerous cutlers as descendents (not surprising in Sheffield). This Robert is the correct age to either be father or elder brother to the eldest John above.
There are also more Roberts (and others) who I haven't managed to place yet as some are obviously marrying and being baptised away from Sheffield - but where? With the Tickhill connections you have found I am wondering if the connection could be there. From directories it would appear that there are Kemps in Tickhill who are drapers too - not a million miles from a tailor to a draper.
The same names and occupations seem to be running through both lots of Kemps so I am sure that there must be a link somewhere.
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Have now got a definite connection from the Tickhill Kemps to the Sheffield cutler Kemps. The Sheffield cutler's apprentice records show a John Kemp taken as an apprentice in 1785, son of John Kemp (shoemaker, deceased) of Tickhill, to master cutler David Lambert for a period of 9 years. This could mean John Kemp junior born in approx. 1773 (usually about 21 when apprenticeship finished).
There are also another two Kemps on the apprenticeship records that I can place as being part of my "cutler" Kemp line who were baptised in Sheffield.
Can you spot this chap on your records from Tickhill?
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There is a member submission on the IGI for a John Kemp b 1773 father John, mother Mary in Tickhill. If this is correct (and I admit it may not be) I would say that the family is as follows:
John Kemp (shoemaker) m Mary Kelk 14 Nov 1766
Children:
Mary Kemp bap 11 Oct 1768
Samuel Kemp bap 27 Dec 1770
Daniel Kemp bap 27 Jan 1771
John Kemp bap 19 Mar 1773 (cutler's apprentice)
George Kemp 21 Aug 1775
Joseph Kemp bap 21 Aug 1778
It also makes the last two on here prime candidates for the entries in Baines Directory 1822: George Kemp, boot and shoemaker (as was his father) and Joseph Kemp, grocer, linen & woollen draper, hatter and hosier.
Pigots Directory in 1829 has John Kemp, Market Place, grocers and drapers - is this John junior (who first became a cutler)?
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Have you tried Sheffield Records online?
http://www.sheffieldrecordsonline.org.uk
Rotherham marriages have a John Kemp marry an Ann Allen 27 Mar 1749
also trade directory Sheffield 1791 J. Kemp Cutler
I've looked in my notes no John Kemp. I have a Joseph John Kemp born 1814 to Joseph and Mary Kemp in Tickhill . The person I am interested in is Robert Jarvis Kemp who was of Rotherham according to burial records but died in Tickhill in 1846 aged 34 Years. This is interesting because there is both Jarvis and Kemp in my family. Jarvis family owned several shops in Tickhill and Nottinghamshire. I think my Kemps will probably be linked to earlier Tickhill Kemps and the shop owning Jarvis's and I think yours will be too but its finding the link. I know a Jarvis married a Kemp. Think that's where Robert Jarvis Kemp comes from. I think he was born in Tickhill. You might try looking for Kemps in Rotherham and also Scrooby, Bawtry and Austerfield.
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I think we have discovered the same people. I have had a lot of information from the website you mentioned too - very useful. I think that the Ann Allen marriage may be another generation earlier so I have a note of it.
I think Robert Jarvis Kemp b 1812 was son of Joseph Kemp and Mary Jarvis. He had siblings Malin 1809, Sarah 1811, Joseph 1814, William 1818, Henry 1819 and Edwin 1821. I think that Joseph senior's parents were the John Kemp and Mary Kelk I mentioned before. It was Joseph's brother, John, who was the Sheffield cutler but I think that he changed occupation and, by 1829, was back in Tickhill as a grocer/draper.
I cannot spot a link between this family and that of Charles Kemp who married Mary Matthews. These seem to be the butchers. Do you have one?
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No I don't but feel its too much of a coincidence that my Kemps should end up in the Kemp heartland without there being a connection. However I may be wrong. My Kemps are mainly in service or butcjers though Arthur Kemp did try his hand at being a cutler but gave it up.
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Hi Duckweed ::) Gosh it can be such a web of intrigue at times!!! ::)
Am trying to process too much information!!! And if I step into another part of the family, find more links and intrigue!!!
Talk about getting bogged down. What I find most confusing at times is when they have the same name- for example I noted two Robert Kemps... one born 1812 and the other born 1838 who married Angelina.There were obviously also two or more Charles Kemps.
For example :The Robert 1812 who appeared on a census 1841 aged 29 had father Joseph b 1778 aged 63, Mary wife aged 61 b 1780; Malin aged 32 b 1809, Robert 1812 and Henry . 22 b 1818 ( a butcher).
( I noted than the name Malin appeared again in another census as a child of someone....and being such an unusual name must have had a connection but I didn't print if off or note it as I was trying not to stray to far and wide away from the task at hand and get bogged down. I can't recall what census it was now but when i join up again will have to take a look! I think from memory that this Malin listed above married as well and had kids in a later census even though in the 1841 census he was still residing with the parents! Maybe he married late.
This is very interesting about 25 Portman Square and Sarah Jacques as a servant. And just how she ( perhaps family) comes to be associated with Charles Kemp- although it makes sense that it could be by association through employment but I don't envisage a valet chatting up a female servant in those times???.
The notes that a cousin had in her file had her her being employed at 95 Gloucester Place, Portman Square. After all there were a few misprints. So, that could be an error or then again she may have worked in more than one place who knows.
I had a look yesterday at Portman Square area 1800s and it seems as you say, very upmarket where all the Earls and Barons lived- didn't hit on no 25 though.
I wasn't aware of the Charles Kemp not being on the 1841 census in St James Place London and 1851 in Belvoir castle. The only one I sighted him on- whatever that was as I didn't take much note given he wasn't linked at that time to Mary - but I do recall this Charles as as valet just no particulars.
It is always possible as well that there is a double link between Jarvises and Kemps- like an early one and a later one- has happened in some of my family here through marriages- siblings and the like .
More interesting is who was this Sarah Jacques if she is connected to Charles Kemp and how....and who was her family exactly and what connection did they have to the Kemps?? Where did she originate and whether her parents always resided London or came from Nottingham or somewhere.
The Thorseby Park sets a common place but now am wondering what the commonality is.. although if her parents married and lived in Marylebone and Charles was working in St James Place London in 1841, perhaps they had links through the people where they worked or perhaps Charles knew Sarah's father through his work or perhaps the Kemps in Thorseby had connections with the Earl of Manvers and his lot?
I found some Jacques in Leicester on censuses but none seemed to fit directly, although I thought at the time they could be possibly related- like cousins. Also one fellow I connected with thru Genes Reunited some time , who resides near Sheffield ( Connisborough?) said it is possible but didn't have any info on a Sarah in his tree. He had a Sarah Whitaker ( brother James?? from whom he stems) in his lineage born abt the same time in relation to Sarah Whitaker ( who married a Robert Jacques Marylebone 1808) and supposedly had our Sarah).
Tis like a huge jigsaw.
Did you happen to find anything about the Kemps pre 1800 from Tickhill-George Kemp b 1781 and wife Ruth that turned up on the censuses- John b 1801, and Mary 1799. I didn't find too many Kemps born Tickhill prior to 1800 in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I think I need to create some sort of summary sheet and any info I find re those with same name - to put it on it!!
If Charles Kemp was born Thorseby. I wonder if or how the Tickhill Kemps are linked other than through the Castle?
Kemps live in the same neighbourhood in Tickhill as George and Hannah Teasdale; Charles from Thorseby works at the Castle along with George T and, married to sister , Mary, of wife Hannah. Charles sister, Lucy Kemp also a servant to a Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square. Sarah Jacques would then know the daughter Mary Leticia Eyre, ( about the same age???)who is married to the Earl of Manvers as she is working for her father. This Earl comes from Thorseby Park..... so how well does he know the Kemps from Thoresby???? How does Sarah meet William- son of George T? Thinking.......thinking...what have we got in common here......horses... groomsman.... valets.... servants... Earls and castles..... At the races???? Perhaps The Ascot races??? What a venue ... Ahh pure supposition!!!
Am off to brew up and ponder all this- and mull it over!!!
Bronnie :)
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Have noticed chat between Duckweed and Bronhill, but it seems to have stopped in 2009.
Has anyone solved the mystery of Charlotte Jacques who was a witness in a marriage in South Australia?
And if Thomas Teasdale was in fact married to Hannah Longden 26 Nov 1793 in Rotherham and was the father of George Teasdale b 1796?
Thanks....
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The Jacques family tree is still a bit sketchy. There are a lot of blind alleys.
I am pretty sure that Thomas Teasdale widower married a Hannah Longden (Sometimes written as Longdin) but her parents are harder to exactly confirm but have possible ones pencilled in.
Thomas and Hannah definitely had a son George. I have seen the baptismal records for that in Sheffield. 17th April 1796 at the Parish Church.