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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: craizi daizi on Wednesday 29 October 08 03:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I have written about this family before,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,244503.msg1335336.html#msg1335336
And now after getting Alfred Lionels marriage cert - where he claims to have a different mother...yes another name !
I am wondering if it is worth even trying to following this family, well trying to, am at my wits end and when ever i try to progress, i end up with another name change.
Really these people are driving me crazy.
Any suggestions ??
Daizi
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Daizi now the board is rather quiet at the moment....perhaps you have chosen a good time to post your query ;D Oh we all have one or two like this ::) ::) ;D
Daizi I'll link it just to make it a tad easier for all those chatters just chaffing at the bit to help you...Hope you don't mind.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,244503.msg1335336.html#msg1335336
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando,
On Alfred's wedding cert he says his mothers name is Florence Mitchum(am) which we know is wrong because of his birth cert, which says Mary Jane Dixon....
But after further looking i noticed that one of the children born in = Alfred Edward born 1875 Vict and died 1875, any way, birth is mother Mary Jane Dixon , on death is Mary Jane Mitchison ??
This death is when they went by the KING name....Blimey
Is there a Mitchison / Dixon dont sound the same, what is this family doing to me ???
Daizi
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I wonder was he raised by someone other than his birth mother? Just a thought.
Daizi I wonder if there may have been some illiteracy coming into play here...just another thought.....and if there had been some name changes ::)
Cheers
Cando
Edit...going back to read the other post very thoroughly and put it on paper....will get back to you shortly....depending on the level of confusion. ;D
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Thanks Cando,
I am confused tooo.
Illiteracy - maybe, but for him to change from James King to William Johnson, and her from Mary Jane DIXON to Mary Jane Mitchison and then Florence Mitchum is a bit weird,
Have three birth certs and a marriage cert if you want to have a look, on Alfred's death cert says parents unknown !
Daizi
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Yes confusion....
Now you have Mary Jane DIXON's signature on those birth certs. I wonder if James KING/William JOHNSON registered any births? As you say all his other details are similar.
Cheers
Cando
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Hey Cando,
Yes Mary Ann seems to have signed ALfred Lionels birth cert - only looked at his, she signs it Mary Jane Johnson,
It also names all the other kids born - some deceased, but these kids on the indexs are all born Mary Jane Dixon and James King....
thanks for all this., as i said i can send all the certs if you wasnt a loook,.
Daizi
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Yes I may need a look at some certs...will pm my email address....or do you want to link them as an image to a post?
But after further looking i noticed that one of the children born in = Alfred Edward born 1875 Vict and died 1875, any way, birth is mother Mary Jane Dixon , on death is Mary Jane Mitchison ??
Wonder who was the informant for that death....just curious.
Have solved a couple of other identity issues by signatures on bdm's....but if James/William didn't sign any. Oh have you their marriage cert in 1873?
Have you Mary Jane's death?
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando,
will send the certs,
No dont have the 1873 marriage, but that will be the next one i get,
And no also to Mary Janes death, there is a couple, but have NO IDEA what name to look under.....
Maybe she remarried a Mitchum/am but i cant see a marrriage either,
Daizi
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Hi Cando
Have emailed 4 certs,
Should arrive soon
Thanks again
Daizi
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Thank you :)
Yes I also wondered about a 2nd or is it 3rd marriage :-\
From previous thread
OK On Alfred Lionel Johnson's birth cert (1889)
Ellen age 16 think we found her birth as Helen ?
Eliza age 11
Henry (decd)
George Henry (decd)
Alfred Ernest (Decd)
Annie (decd)
Ethal Mary ? age 2
Craizi
Can only find Alfred Ernest's death [registered as Albert Ernest] ...has anyone else tried to find the other childrens' deaths.
George Henry is registered at birth as George Edward.
Cando
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Cando,
Have tried to trace the other kids - the ones born under KING, but have no idea where they changed there name to Johnson also, and its a common name....
As you will see, there was no marriage for a William Johnson and Mary Jane Dixon or King,
Only 1 marriage and that was to James King
SO either they the same person, or James King died, ( and a few James Kings on the index,) and William stepped in BUT never married her ??
Yes think i will have to get James King and Mary Jane 's marriage as i cant find her birth either, and it may give a clue....or may not as this family is crazy !!
Thanks again
Daizi
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Yes I agree you need the marriage cert to check signatures.
However the deaths of the chn occurred before the birth registration in 1889. Perhaps something happened prior to this date that caused the change of surname.....? death of child/children.
Also something odd about the registration of Ethel Mary with father Unknown and mother Mary KING...? Mary Jane DIXON's child as a Ethel M is named on the birth cert of Alfred Lionel.
Thinking cap is on ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Ohhhh thanks Cando,
Yes the marriage is next on my list.....long list,
I did look for a marriage for William Johnson or death for James btw the last born King child and 1st born Johnson child, but nothing,
Both lot of certs {the King cert and Johnson certs} givest he marriage date of parents as the same ??
Weird, maybe they ran in to trouble with the law or something, because they moved a long way away and then changed names - from St Kilda area to Healesville area.
But as Johnson and King are both common names,
Daizi
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Now I think that MITCHISON/MITCHINSON is a name from the DIXON side of the family - perhaps Mary Jane's mother's maiden name
Death
KING George Edward
Father James Mother Mary Jane MITCHISON
Age 5 Months Birth Place Sand No death place
1875 Reg# 8806
and then I noticed this when trawling the DIXON's names - and there may be no connection but.....
Death
DIXON Elizabeth
Father MICHINSON Robert Mother Mary DODD
68 yrs at Skipton 1901 Reg#3640
The name had to come from somewhere on Alfred's Lionel marriage cert. Perhaps a relative.
More confusion.
Cheers
Cando
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OK
going on from your though of Mitchisons....
There is a few kids born to Robert Dixon and Elizabeth Mitchison. around the time Mary Jane was born, all in the Skipton area,
Cant see a Mary Jane at all, just a Jane born 1867, but that dosnt tally with her age on the birth certs of the kids
Hmmmm
Daizi
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I realise they have fairly common names but noted the following -
Australian Electoral Rolls
1901
JOHNSON Mary Jane 193 Dorcas Street, South Melbourne Home duties
JOHNSON William 193 Dorcas Street, South Melbourne Labourer
Four of their chn were born at Sandridge which in 1884 became Port Melbourne...and Albert Ernest died at Port Melbourne in 1885 so perhaps they returned to the general area.
Cheers
Cando
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OK
going on from your though of Mitchisons....
There is a few kids born to Robert Dixon and Elizabeth Mitchison. around the time Mary Jane was born, all in the Skipton area,
Cant see a Mary Jane at all, just a Jane born 1867, but that dosnt tally with her age on the birth certs of the kids
Hmmmm
Daizi
Don't you think it is strange that the name popped up on the marriage cert?
Cheers
Cando
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Oh yes i thought it was really strange, and i almost fell over laughing, - thinking how many more names can they claim to have...no wonder both the Johnson soms had parents unknown on there death certs....lol
Daizi
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Crazi
have you found out anything further on Ethel MAry aged 2? who was on Alfred Ernest birth certificate?
Jenn
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Just a adding in a thought here, that maybe already suggested.
where are the two boys buried Alfred Lionel and Herbert Lawrence that is
Jenn
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Not sure where they are buried,
Havnt found them yet, although Lionel (Alfred) died in Healesville, and Herbert died in Moordiallic,
As for Ethel May , no have found nothing about her, thought i may have found a marriage but nothing confirmed...
I dont have Alfred Ernest's birth cert sorry
Daizi
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Ohhh hang on, i have just found a marriage for Ethel Mary Johnson, to a Sydney Wentworth WILLIAMSON in 1907 in Victoria,
So maybe i can assume that although she was born under King, she may have become a Johnson
Oh my head.... :'(
Daizi
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no rule that marriage out I had looked at that one the death gives totally different parents
do you have lionel's death certifcate at all
sorry
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oh bum !!
well i just looked at the death also in 1959
Parents John W Johnson and Mary Ann Bennett
No dont have the death cert for Lionel although on the cd's it has parents unk....think that may be why i didnt bother getting it ...?
Daizi
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yes no doubt but will have a burial place and maybe buried with parents but then again maybe not if the informant didn't know their names
Jenn
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ALfred Lionel, married Violet Maud Wood - Burgess, had 10 kids, then ran off with another woman, it wasnt untill his 1st wife died that he married the 'other woman' although already had a couple of kids to her (apparently)
So assume it would have been 2nd wife that was did death cert.
I think i found him, but hard to say JOHNSON is a common name, but think i found him at Lilydale Lawn Cemetery
Daizi
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Daizi the name Florence for mother of the groom on the marriage cert has been added in a different hand....and it is also the name of the mother of the bride :-\
I am wondering if the deaths of their children resulted in an inquest? I am trying to think of all the reasons that a couple may want to change their name and move to another suburb...well country town in those days. Perhaps a request for a lookup.
I don't think the birth of Ethel Mary with mother Mary KING is one of your family....date is too close [1888]to the birth of Alfred Lionel [1889]for the child to be 2 years of age. Some of the other births weren't registered.
Only way I can think of identifying if KING and JOHNSON are the one and the same is by comparing signatures...but as Mary Jane appeared to register the births - well the certs you have, I guess that option isn't available.
I have just about run out of ideas....well so far ;D
Cheers
Cando
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hi ya Cando
Thanks for all that, i ran out of ideas ages ago...lol
Maybe the Mary isnt theres, is hard to say, i think i will get the marriage cert of James and Mary Jane and see what that brings, - hopefully it wont bring more confusion.....
NOW, have just looked back on my tree, and Violets mother wasnt Florence either, Violet's parents were George Wood-Burgess and Bridget Lee....
Oh the mind boggles
Think i will go and bang my head against the wall
Thanks again Cando i REALLY appreciate your input
Daizi
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Morning Cando,
I think YOU may be on to something, i checked the Inquest Index, and have found Albert Ernest KING 1885 - which is the same year, says died as infant, due to imoerfect feeding ? what ever that is, am going to request if any one is going there, maybe , just maybe it may have a clue,
Just thinking, maybe something happened, because ....he died as a king in 1885 , and by 1889 name changed ????
Maybe something
And to the other stuff, not sure what the obsession is with both of them saying there mothers name was Florence. . when niether was, Although ALfred Lionel and Violet were married only 10 days before there 1st child born,
OK, am off to post a request
Will keep you posted ......
Thanks heaps
Daizi
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Daizie could the cause of death be imperfect feeding? ?
Cheers
Cando
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I think YOU may be on to something, i checked the Inquest Index, and have found Albert Ernest KING 1885 - which is the same year, says died as infant, due to imoerfect feeding ? what ever that is, am going to request if any one is going there, maybe , just maybe it may have a clue,
Hi Daizi
I can do this for you, won't be until the 2nd Saturday in November though. Can you pm the inquest reference to me.
Regards
Genni
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Hi Gennig, Have PM you, and replied on other post thanls again
Cando. Yes imperfest feeding, sorry, fingers were goimg faster than my brain....... whats that ? do you know.
Daizi
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I think you may have to wait for the inquest details....perhaps incorrect feeding...bit of a strange verdict. I wonder if that is the summary of the transcriber, Marjory Knight?
Cheers
Cando
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I agree Cando, a strange verdict, the papers will make interesting reading,
Have 'googled' imperfect feeding, but nothing comes up, also checked the medical sites and cant see anything it could be....
The plot thickens.........lol
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Is it possible or even probable that no marriage did take place as Mary has registered the birth she could have name the father (which may or mayn ot have been the case) without an actual marriage taking place?
Jenn
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Hi Daizi
I'm posting on here so the others can read it. I've received the inquest in the mail today and will be forwarding it to you tomorrow.
In both Statements by Mary & James King its state they are not living together.
So maybe Mary took up with William Johnson later, I would say she never married William Johnson.
regards
Genni
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Ohhh Gennig
Now that is interesting.....i wont sleep now, !!
Will be stalking the postie every day till next week
I cant thank you enough
You are a champion
Daizi
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Hi again all....
Well thaks to Gennig, the inquest papers arrived today !! i was so looking forward to getting them, now, they maybe sorta , clear things up. I hope.
They are really hard to read - the writing that is, but its seems the child died in the arms of the mother, (although when the police turned up, the mother was 'under the influence of drink) She says she is married to..... wait for it, William King, (Blimey) although he signs all his papers in these bundle as James King ???
James / William goes on to say that he dosnt live with her, basically coz she drinks to much !
It goes on to say that he dosnt have anything to do with the children ( i think it says that ),
ANy way will try and scan
So maybe William and James are one and the same, ? or Johnson or King, or ??
Daizi
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Hi Daizi
I noticed that she had given her husbands name as William too. But considering she turned up at the police station under the influence so to speak, I'm wondering if she had taken up with William Johnson after James had left her.
In those days, it was hard going if you didn't have a husband to support, but I noticed James was giving her money.
Regards
Genni
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Yes Genni,
Is weird, but thats what i expect from this family...... ;D
It says she is married and her husband's name is William KING, and does not live with her, but he signs and makes his statement as James KING
I am thinking that James King is William Johnson.....as they change his name around from James KING to William KING, and by 1889 he is William JOHNSON...hmmmm
I am beggining to think i have exhasted all avenues as to find the truth, was hoping this inquest would shed some light.....but alass they confuse more...(thanks so much again for getting the Genni - i mean that)
The policeman, seems to be the only onethat can write neatly, - thank goodness for him -
You see for all the kids born to Mary Ann and her husband(who ever he is) on the certs all give the same marriage date of parents, so am thinking......................
That maybe my grandmother was really a KING not a JOHNSON ?
Am trying to get the scanner plugged in so i can scan some and send to help decypher
Thanks again Genni, you are a STAR ;D
Daizi
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Daizi I was hoping that the inquest papers may have helped you a little more. What was the coroner's finding as to the cause of death? Imperfect feeding???
Genni, you are a STAR Get's my vote also....Genni you are so kind to do all these lookups at PROV. :)
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando,
Me tooo Daizi I was hoping that the inquest papers may have helped you a little more
AM trying to scan the docs so i can send you a copy Cando - if thats ok, maybe you can figure it out, It says something about 'feeding' but cant figure it all out,
Daizi
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Thanks Daizi. :)
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I am thinking that James King is William Johnson.....as they change his name around from James KING to William KING, and by 1889 he is William JOHNSON...hmmmm
I'm leaning the other way I think they are two seperate people. I'm thinking in her distress, she has given the wrong name to the policeman.
You see for all the kids born to Mary Ann and her husband(who ever he is) on the certs all give the same marriage date of parents, so am thinking......................
That maybe my grandmother was really a KING not a JOHNSON ?
In those days when registering a birth if you said you weren't married they wouldn't list the father on the birth certificate.
In our family we have one lady who gave a different date and place of marriage for each of the children born, she never married the children's father.
So, Mary may have used the marriage date on purpose. Who was the informant on the Certificates?
I think it said the baby was sickly, I'm thinking he died from malnutrition, maybe he was getting enough milk.
Regards
Genni
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Hi Genni
Hmmm so you are leaning the other way...lol....just to confuse me more, am trying to read all the inquest and make out words, the scanner is playing up.....so may have to scan tomorro at work..
to recap....i have a marriage for Mary Jane Dixon and James King, and a few kids births and deaths to them, i bought the 1st childs birth cert (to see what details were on there to compare to Johnson kids certs, and all the details are identical, age, marriage date, only thing that differs is where James / William was born, one says Sussex and one says England.....but spose thats not really important ??
Havnt found Mary Janes death, as have no idea what name she died under, Johnson or King..?
On Alf's marriage cert says his father is deceased (that was 1912) but he gives a completely different mothers name?
Maybe Mary Jane changed her name completely, or maybe the Johnson kids were raised by someone else ?
Oh the mind boggles...
Daizi
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Hi Daizi
Just had a thought, I'll check the Children's home registers at the Library on Sunday. See if any of the children were placed in care.
regards
Genni
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Genni
Thanks for that, although i am not sure there were, BUT i am also not sure about a lot of this family
On the last birth cert i have, Herbert Laurence JOHNSON it names the other kids, and there ages and where deceased or not, so i assume they all lived at home....they were living in Healesville at that time. A few of the kids died, but the last one Ernest (the one you got) is the only inquest i could see for them.
BUT after the inquest (well in the next 4 years some time) they moved from Sth Melbourne to Healesville....BIG move in those days.....
I appreciate all your help thanks so much :-*
Daizi
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Hi Daizi
This is a long shot but I found the following:-
Mary Jane COLLISTER died 1921 Aged 57 (age is way out) South Melbourne Reg: 11219
Parents: Father: DIXON Mother: Anne
Mary Jane JOHNSON married Thomas COLLISTER 1914 Reg: 6595
1914 Electoral Roll - living at 68 Dow Street, Port Melbourne (1919 Thomas -68 Dow Mary 66 Dow)
Thomas Collister - occupation: Labourer
Mary Jane Johnson - Occupation: Home Duties
Thomas also serviced in WW1
Regards
Genni
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Hi Genni
Yes i think the ages are way out, Mary Jane married Jmaes King in 1873, and so to marry again 50 years later, to a man young enough to serve in WW1 maybe a long shot,
But Thanks
Daizi
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Hi again all
Have just recieved the marriage cert for Mary Jane Dixon and James King,
Cando, have emailed it to you...lol
Dosnt seem to give much info except parents names....but they are a mystery also, as i cant match a birth to the parents :(
Mary Janes parents are Henry Dixon and Eliza McKay
James parents are James King and Mary King (cant read maiden name ) he says he is born in Suffolk
Daizi
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Daizi....thanks for that ...well we have a signature for James KING. Will have another read and a get back to you.
I think James KING's mother's maiden name is HUDSON...part of the H is missing...
Cheers
Cando
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Hi I am new to this but joined up because of this thread. I wish I had found it earlier because I have read all of these documents before and could have saved you some time maybe - but looking for the info is all the fun, isn't it??
Jane Helena (known as Ellen) King was my Great-great-grandmother. From what I can work out, after the death of Albert Ernest, the older 4 children were taken away into care. I have their Children's Home records. They were committed on the 11 June, 1885, and from what I can work out, didn't live with their parents again. The eldest and youngest were almost dying from want of food and exposure, so that may be what the baby died of.
I have more information if you want - I'm not sure how these message boards go.
I hadn't found the records of the later children's births to William Johnson, but did think it strange that she said her husband was William in the inquest...
The plot thickens...
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Isn't it great when some thing unexpected turns up? I can't help but have enjoyed reading this thread and hope Misskirstie will be able to help some of it,
Good luck,
Abiam
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WOW am so excited
Blimey what a great message to wake up to, am PM' ing Misskirstie....
ohh am shaking !!!!
Thanks all for bearing with me !!!!!!
Daizi
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Thanks for that Albiam,
Yes it is great, am really happy, maybe now will be able to fill in the missing pieces,
Daizi
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Hi Daizi :)
I am so pleased for you ;D ;D... it has been a difficult and at times frustrating journey ;)
Cheers for now
Cando
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Hi Cando....yes frustrating is one word for it....... ;D
The wait is KILLING me, waiting to hear from this person
Daizi
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CONGRATULATIONS ;D ;D ;D ;D
Its an amazing feeling when this happens. Hope it all falls into place for you.
I have been following this search with great interest.
Cheers,
Trish
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Thanks Trish,
I really appreciate EVERYONES help with this, i still havnt had a reply from misskirstie, and its doin' my head in.....
Been stalking the inbox ALL DAY
Will let you all know how it turns out
Daizi
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I hate to tell you this ,but if Misskirstie has only made one posting on Rootschat she won't be able to use the PM system yet.
You need to have made 3 posting here to be able to do so.
See this from Berlin Bob on .....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,327529.0.html
"Personal Messages (PM) are a private e-mail system within RootsChat.
You can use PMs to send personal data to other RootsChat members.
As the name suggests, this data is private and can only be seen by the recipient.
New members must make three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
In general, there is no limit to the number of PMs you may send or receive,
(although we do hope you will empty your Inbox and Outbox regularly).
If you are sending PMs to new members who have less than three posts you will receive an error message, that your limit, or allowed number has been reached.
(note that it says your limit, although it refers to the recipient )
Attachments are not allowed on PMs"
So MissKirstie,if you are getting this message then reply a couple more times to it and bingo-you two will be able to PM each other ;D
Carol
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Hi Carole,
I PM ' d her this morning, never got a error message, hmmm, OH dear,
PLEASSE misskirtie make more replies, am desperate to talk to you, just dribble on about anything...LOL
In pain waiting for a reply
Daizi
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Sorry, I'm back and just got the messages.
This is my second post
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And this is my third post.
I am just composing a big email to you Daizi- I received your message!! Thank you~!!
:)
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Good luck girls!!! :-*
Carol
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Hi,
I know I am very late to this chat but I am hoping this is will be seen by CD.
I am Herbert Lawrence Johnsons grandson and am so pleased to find this as I have had no luck locating many information on this man. My dad, HL's son always believed that his father's names was Albert Lionel as that is the name that he recorded on his marriage certificate to Emmaline Bertha Cox.
CD, I would love to talk out you about this family and compare notes with you.
head.
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Hi Jdad
WOW this is exciting, is wonderful to hear from you, i have lots of info and would love to message you, you need to make another 2 posts under this one and then we can private message and exchange details,
Daizi
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Post2
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Post2
Posting to be able to pm.
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Hi All
I didn't know about Daizi's confusing Mary Jane DIXON family until yesterday.
Mary Jane Dixon . . . . . Mary Jane Mitchison. . . . . . parents Henry DIXON and Eliza McKAY . . . .
Well . . . .
A Henry DIXON aged 22 and Eliza DIXON aged 23 arrived in Dec 1852 on the ship James T FOORD.
Henry DIXON aged 22 died 1853 at Geelong. Reg #24811
Parish record C of E CHRIST CHURCH, GEELONG Fiche 363
Then . . .
Two more marriages for Eliza nee McKAY
1. to Abraham KITCHIN in 1856 Reg #2275
Four KITCHIN children with mothers surname McKAY.
2. to Joseph MITCHINSON in 1865 Reg #9418
Two MITCHINSON children with mothers surname McKAY
Then . . .
Death of Eliza MITCHINSON nee McKAY aged 67 at Brswk in 1900
Parents named Jas McKAY and Mary DAW
Have sent a PM to Daizi with all records found.
Rhonda
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Rhonda
Thanks and yes most of that info is correct, i did the original posting in '08 and have this info and more since then, but thanks so much for taking the time to post
Daizi