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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: 941pars on Monday 27 October 08 10:41 GMT (UK)
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Hi
My GG Grandfather John Wardlaw Reid, birth year 1863 Pittenween, but am struggling to find any more information, he was married to a Maggie Brown (NFD) can any one help please
Susie
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Hi Susie
Apologies if you already have this...
1881 Census Scotland Fife St Andrews and St Leonards
ED7/Parish Reg # 453/ Page 7
9 South Castle Street
REID
James Head Marr 45 General Labourer born Dunfermline Fifeshire
Helen Wife Marr 47 born Pittenweem Fifeshire
Janet Dau Unmarr 21 Out Door Work born Pittenweem Fifeshire
John Son Unmarr 19 Butcher Unemployed born Pittenweem Fifeshire
John B Grandson Unmarr 9 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
James Mc I Grandson Unmarr 2 born St Andrews Fifeshire
He and Maggie are on the 1891 and 1901 Census if you would like the details from there as well
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi Susie
The IGI has a John Reid Wardlaw born Pittenweem 2nd Nov 1861, father James Reid Wardlaw, mother Helen Drummond.
There is also a marriage between James Reid Wardlaw & Helen Drummond at Pittenweem 19th Sept 1861.
The LDS transcribed Scottish births & marriages between 1855 when registration commenced & 1875 direct from the registers and all births & marriages should have been included irrespective of religion.
Andy
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Hi All
What fast results many thanks for the Information.
Karenlee yes if possible could I have the 1891 and 1901 info, much appreciated.
Andy thanks for the information, its gives me something to work on and search for.
You are all amazing at what info you can find.
Thanks once again
Susie
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Susie
Here you go :-
1891 Census Scotland Fife St Andrews
ED7/Parish Reg # 453/ Page 15
7 South Castle Street
REID
John Head Marr 28 Fisherman born Pittenweem Fifeshire
Maggie G Wife Marr 23 born St Andrews Fifeshire
James B Son Unmarr 3 born St Andrews Fifeshire
Melville Son Unmarr 1 born St Andrews Fifeshire
1901 Census Scotland Fife St Andrews
ED5/Parish Reg # 453/ Page 48
10 Market Street
REID
John Head Marr 39 Munel?? Dragger born Pittenweem Fifeshire
Maggie Ann Wife Marr 32 born St Andrews Fifeshire
James Son Unmarr 13 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
Melville Son Unmarr 11 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
Agnes Dau Unmarr 9 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
Nellie Dau Unmarr 5 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
George Son Unmarr 3 born St Andrews Fifeshire
Jane Dau Unmarr 2mths born St Andrews Fifeshire
Cheers
Karenlee
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Thats Brilliant
I have just phoned by Grandfather who is 89 and he is amazed at what I found from his Fathers birth certificate, he is going to see if he has anymore for me, I am completely hooked.
Thanks once again
Susie
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Hi Susie
1861 Census High St, Pitterweem
Hellen Drummond, head age 28 born Pitterweem
Christian Black, daughter age 8 born Pitterweem
Helen Drummond, duughter age 5 born Pitterweem
James Drummond, son, age 2, born Pitterweem
Janet Drummond, daughter, age 1, born Pitterweem
James Reid, boarder age 25, born Dunfermline
You can download certificates from Scotlandspeople (link below) Marriage certificates should name both sets of parents enabling you to go back a further generation.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Andy
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Susie
It looks like James REID was Helen's second husband, her first being a DRUMMOND. Also likely that her maiden name was BLACK as her eldest child carries that surname.
Karenlee
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Karen
I was looking at that as well, it is very intresting,
Thanks once again
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Pittenweem births (from the IGI) have the following to a Helen DRUMMOND with no father named:
Helen DRUMMOND b 1856
James DRUMMOND b 1858
Janet Haig DRUMMOND b 1860
JAP
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Now then ... Now then ... Hows about this then ...
HELEN DRUMMOND was born 30 Nov 1832 in Pittenweem, Anstruther Wester, Fife, daughter of JAMES DRUMMOND and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON and died 06 Aug 1903 in Fife and Kinross Asylum, Parish of Cupar, Fife. She married (2) JAMES REID WARDLAW 19 Sep 1861 in Pittenweem, Fife, son of JAMES WARDLAW and JANET HAIG. He was born Abt. 1835 in Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for HELEN DRUMMOND:
1841 Census Residing at Lower Loan, Pittenweem, Fife
1851 Census Residing at Cowgate, Pittenweem, Fife
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as Helen REID
1903 Death Register shows Helen as 'Helen Reid married to James Wardlaw Reid, General Labourer'.
Helen's death 'Informant' was Samuel Begg, Attendant from the Fife and Kinross Asylum
More About HELEN DRUMMOND:
Baptism: 09 Dec 1832, Anstruther, Fife
Cause of Death: Spinal Myelitis several months P.M. (post mortem)
Notes for JAMES REID WARDLAW:
1861 Marriage Register - James 'made his mark' indicating that he was, perhaps, uneducated
1871 Census Residing at 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife.
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as James REID
More About JAMES REID WARDLAW:
Occupation: 1861, Labourer
Children of HELEN DRUMMOND are:
i. CHRISTIAN BLACK, b. Abt. 1853, Pittenweem, Fife.
Notes for CHRISTIAN BLACK:
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
ii. HELEN DRUMMOND, b. 12 Apr 1856, Pittenweem, Fife.
Notes for HELEN DRUMMOND:
Illegitimate
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife - scholar
iii. JAMES DRUMMOND, b. 03 Sep 1858, Pittenweem, Fife.
Notes for JAMES DRUMMOND:
Illegitimate
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife - scholar
Child of HELEN DRUMMOND and JAMES WARDLAW is:
iv. JOHN REID WARDLAW, b. 02 Nov 1861, Pittenweem, Fife.
Although my record shows that James was her 2nd husband, I'm pretty sure he was her first and only and that she already had a couple of bairns when she married him (given that her second one was Illegitimate)
JAMES DRUMMOND and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON were my maternal Great Great Grandparents :)
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Dear All
I've been having a wee think about this thread and have been looking at all the information that’s been proffered. I've come to the conclusion that there seems to be some confusion that is all part and parcel of genealogy ... it’s a haystack full of needles - but it is the threads that we need ... it’s where we confuse the dead and irritate the living.
pars941 was looking for his GG Grandfather John Wardlaw Reid, birth year 1863 Pittenween who was married to Maggie Brown and who were on the 1891 and 1901 Census - 1891 Census at 7 South Castle Street, St Andrews then in 1901 at 10 Market Street, St Andrews
The 1881 Census for 9 South Castle Street, St Andrews and St Leonards, Fife was for JAMES REID, his wife HELEN two ‘children’ and two grandchildren. Was this the first time James’s presumed illiteracy came though (given that he ‘made his mark’ on the marriage register) - getting his name written down wrongly?
Then there’s John Reid Wardlaw born Pittenweem 2nd Nov 1861 (not 1863) whose parents were James Reid Wardlaw and Helen Drummond. The marriage between James Reid Wardlaw and Helen Drummond at Pittenweem on 19th Sept 1861 would tie in with John’s birth. It was common practice then for a girl to become pregnant before marriage to prove she could have children and continue the line and Helen appears to have had this all cut and dried having had no less than three illegitimate children - perhaps a fourth – Janet Haig Drummond - before marrying John – although there’s a dubious entry of ‘boarder’ James Reid who was about Helen’s age on the 1861 Pittenweem Census! Call me suspicious if you will!
Janet Haig Drummond was, more than likely, the illegitimate daughter of Helen and James given that James’s mother’s maiden name was Haig.
I would argue that Helen’s maiden surname was DRUMMOND and not BLACK
I think, perhaps, we need to sit down with a clean sheet of paper here, sort this jumble out and come back with an answer.
I look forward to a solution being found!
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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My GG Grandfather John Wardlaw Reid, birth year 1863 Pittenween, but am struggling to find any more information, he was married to a Maggie Brown (NFD) can any one help please
Susie
Hello Susie,
It might be useful to point out how you could have set about finding further information.
You might find it helpful to read the following threads:
'Where to start Scottish research' at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
'Optimise ScotlandsPeople searches' at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
From the information you provided in your post, the first step to finding further information would have been to search on (the pay-per-view site) ScotlandsPeople for the marriage of a John REID & a Maggie BROWN. Surprisingly, given that they are fairly common names, there is only one record between 1855 (the start of Statutory Registration) and 1932 (online records for marriages currently stop at 1932).
You could then have downloaded the search result which shows that John REID (no middle name) married Maggie Ann BROWN, 1888, St Andrews & St Leonards, Fife.
You could then have downloaded the actual certificate. Details are that on 8 Jun 1888 at 24 North Castle St, St Andrews
John REID, a Fisherman aged 24 of 9 South Castle Street, parents James Wardlaw REID, a General Labourer & Helen REID m.s. DRUMMOND
married
Maggie Ann BROWN, a Fish-line-Bailer of 24 North Castle Street, parents Melville BROWN, a Fisherman & Agnes BROWN m.s. ANDERSON.
This would have given you basic information from which to search further in the IGI (International Genealogical Index) at:
http://www.familysearch.org
and on ScotlandsPeople at:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
(SP has BDMs, censuses, and wills online)
Unfortunately, as has been found, John's ancestry is complicated by the fact that his father was sometimes recorded as James Wardlaw REID and sometimes as James Reid WARDLAW.
However, you might now like to follow up Maggie Ann BROWN for yourself and see how you go. Everyone here will be more than happy to help if you strike any problems.
Best of luck,
JAP
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Hi Chiad Fhear,
A few questions, please, to try to clarify the WARDLAW/REID puzzle in my own mind.
I take it that you have a copy of the 1861 marriage certificate of James Reid WARDLAW & Helen DRUMMOND, and that this is where you found James's parents as James WARDLAW & Janet HAIG?
Do you have the death cert of James WARDLAW or REID? What does it say about his parents? A free search on SP finds that a James Wardlaw REID died in 1908, age recorded as 73.
From the IGI - a James WARDLAW & a Janet HAIG married in Culross, Perth in 1833. They had WARDLAW children, all in Culross - James 1833, Sarah 1836, Jessie 1839, William 1841, Richard 1844, Robert 1846, Mary 1848.
The only census birthplace I can find for James on this thread is Dunfermline (1861 and 1881) - what is on other censuses as his birthplace?
It would be useful to find the James WARDLAW/Janet HAIG family on censuses.
It occurs to me that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have been widowed and re-married to a REID ...
It would also be useful to find James WARDLAW b 1833 (or REID) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses (he might be with his parents ...). Do you have that information?
All the best,
JAP
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Hi JAP
Thanks for that. To answer your questions:
I take it that you have a copy of the 1861 marriage certificate of James Reid WARDLAW & Helen DRUMMOND, and that this is where you found James's parents as James WARDLAW & Janet HAIG?
Yes ...
1861 September Nineteenth At Pittenweem ...
James Reid Wardlaw (26) Pittenweem
His X Mark
Labourer Bachelor
(Signed) Patrick Macfarlane
Minr. Witness
Helen Drummond (27) PIttenweem
(Spinster)
Parents:
James Reid Wardlaw (Carter)
Janet Wardlaw M.S. Haig (Deceased)
James Drummond (Labourer) (Deceased)
Christian Drummond M.S. Stevenson
Do you have the death cert of James WARDLAW or REID? What does it say about his parents? A free search on SP finds that a James Wardlaw REID died in 1908, age recorded as 73.
No. I haven’t gone out on that branch as yet ...
From the IGI - a James WARDLAW & a Janet HAIG married in Culross, Perth in 1833. They had WARDLAW children, all in Culross - James 1833, Sarah 1836, Jessie 1839, William 1841, Richard 1844, Robert 1846, Mary 1848.
Thanks ... that would appear to be them.
The only census birthplace I can find for James on this thread is Dunfermline (1861 and 1881) - what is on other censuses as his birthplace?
I only have two:
1871 : 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
James R Wardlaw Head/Mar/36/General Labourer/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Wardlaw Wife/Mar/37/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Helen Wardlaw Daur/Unm/14/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
James Wardlaw Son/12/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
Janet W Wardlaw Daur/11/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
1901 : Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife
James Reid (?Wardlaw) Head/Mar/66/Farm Servant/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Reid (?Wardlaw) Wife/Mar/68/Farm Servant’s Wife/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Annie H-------- Gd Daur/14/Fife, St Andrews
It would be useful to find the James WARDLAW/Janet HAIG family on censuses.
1841/1851 would help. Janet was deceased in Sept 1861 so, depending on when she died, may not appear on the 1861 Census. As I said, I haven’t gone out on that branch as yet ...
It occurs to me that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have been widowed and re-married to a REID
No mention of it on the 1861 Marriage record (above). Usually it’s shown ...
It would also be useful to find James WARDLAW b 1833 (or REID) in the 1841 and 1851 censuses (he might be with his parents ...). Do you have that information?
No, sorry
Hope some of this helps
One wee correction: Maggie Ann BROWN, a Fish-line-Bailer of 24 North Castle Street ... her occupation should read "Fish-line-Baiter"
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Hi Chiad Fhear,
That certainly adds lots of useful information - especially the two censuses (1871 and 1901) which show James's birthplace as Culross, Perth!
My suggestion that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW might have re-married a REID seems to be 'dead in the water' - as, on James's 1861 m.c., his mother is listed as deceased and as WARDLAW ms HAIG
So we are no closer to solving the puzzle of why James changed from WARDLAW to REID. Perhaps he'd been a naughty boy in some way or other and didn't want to be traced ...
It does look as though trying to find James in 1841 and 1851, and trying to find his parents in various censuses, would be useful.
Unfortunately I don't have access to Scottish census info (other than through SP which costs). Let's hope that others can find the information?
JAP
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Hi
1871 : 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
James R Wardlaw Head/Mar/36/General Labourer/Perthshire, Culross
Helen Wardlaw Wife/Mar/37/Fife, Anstruther Wester
Helen Wardlaw Daur/Unm/14/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
James Wardlaw Son/12/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
Janet W Wardlaw Daur/11/Scholar/Fife, Pittenweem
It looks like the family are spreads over 2 pages in the 1871 census as the first line of the next page is
John Wardlaw son/9/scolar/Fife Pittenween
Andy
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Hi All
Early censuses info for the Wardlaw family.
1841:
Everyone showing as born in the County:
James Wardlaw 30, agr. lab.
Janet Wardlaw 30
James Wardlaw 7
Sarah Wardlaw 4
Janet Wardlaw 3
Address: Burgh Of Culross Not Fully Distinguished Into Stre(et?), Culross
1851:
There is a likely entry for James, working away from home:
James Warlaw, 16, agr. lab, b. Culross
Address: Kirklands, Ballingry, Fife
In respect of his family, I think his mother Janet may already have died. Everyone showing as born in Culross:
James Wardlaw 41
Sarah Wardlaw 15
Jessie Wardlaw 11
William Wardlaw 7
Richard D Wardlaw 5
Robert Wardlaw 4
Address:Sandhaven Close, Culross
Monica :)
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James Wardlaw Snr. looks to have probably died between 1881-91. He is in the censuses in Culross up to 1881.
Monica
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This is the most obvious entry for Janet Haig on IGI (and the only one ;)) in Culross:
JANET HAIG Birth: 27 APR 1811/ Christening:05 MAY 1811 in Culross
Parents:WILLIAM HAIG and MARGARET SOMMERVAIL
Monica
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...And probably the source of the REID middle name, likely entry for James Snr.:
JAMES WARDLAW Birth:14 SEP 1810/ Christening:16 SEP 1810 in Culross
Parents: JAMES WARDLAW and SARAH REID
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Good information!
Yes, I'd agree that Janet (HAIG) WARDLAW had probably died pre-1851. Children of James & Janet are recorded regularly until Mary in 1848 which suggests that one of the parents had not survived past then. As James is still there in 1851 but neither Janet nor Mary is, it suggests that perhaps Janet died in childbirth with Mary.
James WARDLAW & Sarah REID had (all Culross) John 1802, Sarah 1805, David 1808, James & William 1810, Janet 1813, Sophia 1818.
Scots naming patterns would suggest that Sarah's parents were David & Sarah; and James's parents were John & Janet.
There's a Sarah REID b 1781 Culross, parents David REID & Sarah LYEL ...
A David REID m Sarah LYAL 1774 Culross.
Not such a good fit for James but interesting that a James WARDLAW was b 1777 Culross, parents John WARDLAW & Sophia MILLAR ...
JAP
PS: But still no idea why James WARDLAW changed to James REID ;D
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HI All
Many Thanks for all your replies, what a lot of information you all have managed to dig up.
Because of my shifts I have not been on line since Friday, so have got a lot of catching up to do.
Thanks once again
Susie
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HI
I have just spoke to by grandfather about all the info you have managed to find, his middle name is Brown. And his father middle names were Brown and Wardlaw.
He was intrested to hear about the change in the middle to surname.
From his memory he recalls that his Great Grandfather was a James Reid born around 1836, and his Grandfather a James Wardlaw Reid b 1861.
However he does recall something to do with a male in the family taken on the wifes surname (no idea why) and thinks that his Grandfather surname was Wardlaw and not Reid. This might explain why James Wardlaw Reid is also on census for James Reid Wardlaw.
He is going to rack his brains and see if he has any old documents that might help.
Kind Regards
Susie
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Monica ... thanks a million for all these gems!
JAP
Re your "PS: But still no idea why James WARDLAW changed to James REID"
I you look at James (senior) b.1810, his mother's maiden name was REID. Maybe he 'fell out' with his father over something ... or was just confused with too many names for himself!
Susie ... you must be delighted with this barrage of information that's suddenly descended on you over the weekend!
I know I'm happy to have learned a little more about this branch of the family!
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Hi everyone
Given all the above information, and a trawl through the IGI I've managed to put together this descendancy:
Descendants of John Wardlaw
Generation No. 1
1. JOHN WARDLAW married SOPHIA MILLAR.
Children of JOHN WARDLAW and SOPHIA MILLAR are:
2. i. JAMES WARDLAW, b. 14 Dec 1777, Culross, Perthshire.
ii. ROBERT WARDLAW, b. 18 Oct 1779, Culross, Perthshire.
More About ROBERT WARDLAW:
Baptism: 20 Oct 1779, Culross, Perthshire
iii. BETTY WARDLAW, b. 14 Mar 1785, Culross, Perthshire.
More About BETTY WARDLAW:
Baptism: 20 Mar 1785, Culross, Perthshire
iv. JOHN WARDLAW, b. 03 Jan 1788, Culross, Perthshire.
More About JOHN WARDLAW:
Baptism: 06 Jan 1788, Culross, Perthshire
v. DAVID WARDLAW, b. 12 Dec 1791, Culross, Perthshire.
Generation No. 2
2. JAMES WARDLAW was born 14 Dec 1777 in Culross, Perthshire. He married SARAH REID Abt. 10 Nov 1801 in Culross, Perthshire, daughter of DAVID REID and SARAH LYAL. She was born Abt. 1781 in Culross, Perthshire.
More About JAMES WARDLAW:
Baptism: 28 Dec 1777, Culross, Perthshire
Children of JAMES WARDLAW and SARAH REID are:
i. JOHN WARDLAW, b. 22 Nov 1802, Culross, Perthshire.
More About JOHN WARDLAW:
Baptism: 28 Nov 1802, Culross, Perthshire
ii. SARAH WARDLAW, b. 12 Jun 1805, Culross, Perthshire.
More About SARAH WARDLAW:
Baptism: 17 Jun 1805, Culross, Perthshire
iii. DAVID WARDLAW, b. 30 Mar 1808, Culross, Perthshire.
More About DAVID WARDLAW:
Baptism: 03 Apr 1808, Culross, Perthshire
iv. WILLIAM WARDLAW, b. 14 Sep 1810, Culross, Perthshire.
More About WILLIAM WARDLAW:
Baptism: 16 Sep 1810, Culross, Perthshire
3. v. JAMES REID WARDLAW, b. 14 Sep 1810, Culross, Perthshire; d. Abt. 1908.
vi. JANET WARDLAW, b. 21 May 1813, Culross, Perthshire.
More About JANET WARDLAW:
Baptism: 24 May 1813, Culross, Perthshire
vii. SOPHIA WARDLAW, b. 29 Jan 1818, Culross, Perthshire; m. ROBERT THOMSON, 02 May 1840, Culross, Perthshire.
More About SOPHIA WARDLAW:
Baptism: 08 Feb 1818, Culross, Perthshire
Generation No. 3
3. JAMES REID WARDLAW was born 14 Sep 1810 in Culross, Perthshire, and died Abt. 1908. He married JANET HAIG 1833 in Culross, Perthshire, daughter of WILLIAM HAIG and MARGARET SOMMERVAIL. She was born 27 Apr 1811 in Culross, Perthshire, and died Bef. 1861.
Notes for JAMES REID WARDLAW:
1841 Census Residing in the Burgh of Culross, Perthshire
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
More About JAMES REID WARDLAW:
Baptism: 16 Sep 1810, Culross, Perthshire
Occupation: 1861, Carter
Notes for JANET HAIG:
1841 Census Residing in the Burgh of Culross, Perthshire
Children of JAMES WARDLAW and JANET HAIG are:
4. i. JAMES REID WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1835, Culross, Perthshire.
ii. SARAH WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1836, Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for SARAH WARDLAW:
1841 Census Residing in the Burgh of Culross, Perthshire
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
iii. JANET WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1839, Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for JANET WARDLAW:
1841 Census Residing in the Burgh of Culross, Perthshire
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
iv. WILLIAM WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1841, Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for WILLIAM WARDLAW:
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
v. RICHARD WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1844, Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for RICHARD WARDLAW:
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
vi. ROBERT WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1846, Culross, Perthshire.
Notes for ROBERT WARDLAW:
1851 Census Residing in the Sandhaven Close, Culross, Perthshire
vii. MARY WARDLAW, b. Abt. 1848, Culross, Perthshire.
Generation 4 is in the next post ...
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Descendants of John Wardlaw ... continued
Generation No. 4
4. JAMES REID WARDLAW was born Abt. 1835 in Culross, Perthshire. He married HELEN DRUMMOND 19 Sep 1861 in Pittenweem, Fife1, daughter of JAMES DRUMMOND and CHRISTIAN STEVENSON. She was born 30 Nov 1832 in Pittenweem, Anstruther Wester, Fife, and died 06 Aug 1903 in Fife and Kinross Asylum, Parish of Cupar, Fife.
Notes for JAMES REID WARDLAW:
1841 Census Residing in the Burgh of Culross, Perthshire
1851 Census Residing at Kirklands, Ballingry, Fife
1861 Marriage Register - James 'made his mark' indicating that he was, perhaps, uneducated
1871 Census Residing at 27 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife.
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as James REID
More About JAMES REID WARDLAW:
Occupation: Bet. 1851 - 1861, Agricultural Labourer; Labourer
Notes for HELEN DRUMMOND:
1841 Census Residing at Lower Loan, Pittenweem, Fife
1851 Census Residing at Cowgate, Pittenweem, Fife
1861 Census Residing at High Street, Pittenweem, Fife
1871 Census Residing at 37 Abbey Street, St Andrews, Fife
1901 Census Residing at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife as Helen REID
1903 Death Register shows Helen as 'Helen Reid married to James Wardlaw Reid, General Labourer'.
Helen's death 'Informant' was Samuel Begg, Attendant from the Fife and Kinross Asylum
More About HELEN DRUMMOND:
Baptism: 09 Dec 1832, Anstruther, Fife
Cause of Death: Spinal Myelitis several months P.M. (post mortem)
Child of JAMES WARDLAW and HELEN DRUMMOND is:
i. JOHN REID WARDLAW, b. 02 Nov 1861, Pittenweem, Fife; m. MAGGIE ANN BROWN, 08 Jun 1888, 24 South Castle Street, St Andrews, Fife; b. Abt. 1864.
Notes for JOHN REID WARDLAW:
1871 Census Residing at 27 Abbey Street,St andrews, Fife - scholar
More About JOHN REID WARDLAW:
Residence: 1888, 9 South Castle Street, St Andrews, Fife
More About MAGGIE ANN BROWN:
Occupation: 1888, Fish-line-baiter
Residence: 1888, 24 South Castle Street, St Andrews, Fife
I think that's it for now (the previous attempt exceeded the allowed number of characters)
Chiad Fhear
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HI
Quote
Susie ... you must be delighted with this barrage of information that's suddenly descended on you over the weekend!
Wow so much information to take in , John Wardlaw Reid or other way was my Paternal Great, Great Grandfather.
At the moment I am going try and put the information from this thread in to tree so it is easy for my granddad to look and understand.
He is so chuffed and overwhelmed, he has found the death certificate of Melville Brown Wardlaw Reid who was his father (b 1891 and died 1928).
So next time I see him I will get a look at the certificate and see what info is on for his parents at the time of death.
Once again, I can't believe all the info you have managed to find, it is very interesting.
Kind Regards
Susie
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Hi Susie
The name 'Melville Reid' with a connection to St Andrews, Fife, is ringing bells with me. Am I close?
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Yes very very hot
Susie
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Hi again 'cousin' Susie
Contact me by PM please
Chaid Fhear
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Yes very very hot
Any connecton to Melville Reid who was a postman and his son Kenneth?
Chiad Fhear
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I think I may have sorted this out, but there again …
Helen Drummond was born in 1832 and first appears in the 1841 Census living at Lower Loan, Pittenweem. In 1851 she is still living in Pittenweem but has moved to Cowgate.
In 1856, at the age of 24, she proved she could have children when her first-born arrived – i.e. Christian Black – and there’s no indication here who her father may be. Two or three years later she had another daughter - Helen (Drummond) - followed three years after that by a son - James (Drummond) - then another daughter - Janet (Haig Drummond). All four children, incidentally, were stigmatised as ‘Illegitimate’ in the Scottish Records.
In the 1861 Pittenweem Census she is living at High Street and there is a James Reid – born Dunfermline - staying in the house/with Helen as a ‘boarder’ (mair than likely her ‘bidie-in’). James the Boarder is presumably Janet’s (Haig Drummond) father given that his mother’s maiden name was Haig.
Later, in September 1861, we then have Helen’s marriage to James Reid Wardlaw – just to muddy the water a little. Question: Did James Reid try and hide behind an assumed name (Wardlaw)? No, I don’t think so, since James Reid was born in Dunfermline and James Reid Wardlaw was born in Culross, Perthshire. James Reid born in Dunfermline seems to have been ‘kicked into touch!’
The 1871 St Andrews Census shows Helen living at 37 Abbey Street with James Reid Wardlaw (Head), her daughters Christian, Helen and son James and there is also anther son at this point – John Reid Wardlaw b.2 Nov 1861 presumably James’s son. James later married Maggie Ann Brown. (I think Susie thought his year of birth might have been 1863).
The 1881 St Andrews Census (Parish #453/ED7 / Pages 13 & 14 incidentally) then shows Helen living at 9 South Castle Street with James Reid (Head), born Culross, Perthshire, her daughter Janet (Reid), son John (Reid) and two Grandsons John B Reid, age 9 (we have a James B Reid shown as John and Maggie Reid’s eldest laddie in the 1891 St Andrews Census), and James McI Reid, age 2. Who were James McI Reid’s parents? There’s no indication in the IGI. There seems to be a slight discrepancy regarding the birth years for ‘Janet H’ and ‘John R’. A check in New Register House, Edinburgh should resolve this.
In the 1901 Census she is living at Woodend Cotton, Dunino, Fife, still with James REID and a grand-daughter Annie H---? (her surname is not clear) born in St Andrews, Fife. Who were Annie’s parents?
Helen died two years later in the Fife and Kinross Asylum – indicating that, compounding her Spinal Myelitis, she may have had some mental problems ... an’ it’s nae wunder efter a life like that.
Are you still confused? I know I am, but things do seem to be getting a little clearer … or are they?
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No, I don’t think so, since James Reid was born in Dunfermline and James Reid Wardlaw was born in Culross, Perthshire. James Reid born in Dunfermline seems to have been ‘kicked into touch!’
1881 Census Scotland Fife St Andrews and St Leonards
ED7/Parish Reg # 453/ Page 7
9 South Castle Street
REID
James Head Marr 45 General Labourer born Dunfermline Fifeshire
Helen Wife Marr 47 born Pittenweem Fifeshire
Janet Dau Unmarr 21 Out Door Work born Pittenweem Fifeshire
John Son Unmarr 19 Butcher Unemployed born Pittenweem Fifeshire
John B Grandson Unmarr 9 Scholar born St Andrews Fifeshire
James Mc I Grandson Unmarr 2 born St Andrews Fifeshire
I think James Reid & James Reid Wardlaw are the same person. As you can see James birthplace in the 1881 census is shown as Dunfermline. Whilst the other censuses for James show Culross as Perthshire, on Genuki its under Fife. Culross is only about 6 miles from Dunfermline and I know from my own experience that if people don't know the place you are from you then say near a larger town so Culross near Dunfermline is reasonable.
Andy
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Andy
You're quite right ... it was a typo, sorry :-[. I had checked the microfilm copy in the University Library yesterday and jotted it down correctly (it wasn't a particularly good copy so I didn't print it off)
I know Culross (pronounced - Coo-roos) in Fife and, as you say, it's not far from Dunfermline.
Try Culross, Perthshire on Google and look at the first result http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=16938 (http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=16938)... and then try the Fife Family History Society page a little further down http://www.fifefhs.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/parishmap.htm (http://www.fifefhs.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/parishmap.htm). If you scroll right down to the bottom of that page you'll find Culross, Parish 64, appears in PERTHSHIRE (detached) from a 1790's map - before the Fife / Perthshire boundaries were delineated ... so that resolves the place of birth anomaly!
I've now come round to your way of thinking ... but why did he change his name?
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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John B REID, Grandson, 9 in the 1881 census is likely to be the following from the IGI:
*John BLACK b 26 Mar 1872, St Andrews & St Leonards, Fife, mother Christina BLACK, no father named.
(Chiad Fhear, were you suggesting that he was the eldest child of John & Maggie? However, their eldest was James B REID and was only 3 in 1891.)
*James McI REID, Grandson, 3 in the 1881 census (i.e. b ca 1879, St Andrews & St Leonards) would not be found in the IGI (as he was born after 1875).
He may perhaps be an illegitimate child of Janet's ...
JAP
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JAP
John and James continually got mixed up back in these days ... as I've discovered on many an occasion ... even a James recorded on a Census as Jane!!
Christina BLACK was Helen's first child from the other side of the blankets so you could be right about John B Reid.
I'm planning another trip to New Register House in Edinburgh SOON and will see if I can sort this family out.
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Perhaps I should have spelled out my reasoning in detail. I do so now.
Grandson John B REID, aged 9 in 1881, and James B REID (son of John W REID & Maggie Ann BROWN), aged 3 in 1891, could not possibly be one and the same.
In 1872 (grandson John B REID's approximate year of birth) John W REID (b 1861 as we know) would have been about 11 years old, and Maggie Ann BROWN (born 1867, as Margaret Ann BROWN, daughter of Melville REID & Agnes ANDERSON) would have been only about 5 years old!!
In the light of known ages, the only serious contenders for parent of grandson John B REID (b ca 1872, St Andrews) would be Helen's daughters Christian BLACK or Helen DRUMMOND.
The IGI does not have an appropriate John REID nor does it have an appropriate John DRUMMOND nor even a John WARDLAW.
What it does have is a John BLACK, b 26 Mar 1872, St Andrews & St Leonards, mother Christina BLACK, no father named.
JAP
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Chiad Fhear, You wrote as follows about Helen DRUMMOND:
... In 1856, at the age of 24, she proved she could have children when her first-born arrived – i.e. Christian Black – and there’s no indication here who her father may be. Two or three years later she had another daughter - Helen (Drummond) - followed three years after that by a son - James (Drummond) - then another daughter - Janet (Haig Drummond). All four children, incidentally, were stigmatised as ‘Illegitimate’ in the Scottish Records. ...
From the 1861 census it seems that Christian BLACK (8 in 1861) was actually born ca 1853 when Helen was ca 21 (she was b 1832). Of her next three children, Helen DRUMMOND was b 1856, James DRUMMOND 1858 and Janet Haig DRUMMOND 1860.
You say that "All four children, incidentally, were stigmatised as ‘Illegitimate’ in the Scottish Records". Where does that come from? I've not found a birth/baptism for Christian BLACK.
Regards,
JAP