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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Bobsy on Saturday 25 October 08 13:27 BST (UK)
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Any more EX Members of Aop still about, been on Royall Artillery site :-
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.html
But AOP Suadrons (blacked out.)
looked at several pages mentions 652 A Flight & 652 B Flight landing on D Day
But this was an advance party (I was on it) never seen it mentioned before on any records that I have seen.
Bob T.
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Unarmed Into Battle by General H J Parham is a good history of the AOP and has several pages on D-Day. It also has all of 652's bases listed in an appendix, plus a pretty comprehensive list of all AOP courses and name of graduates.
And Soldiers in the Air by Peter Mead has a lot about his time in 652 post-war.
K
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Hi Kyt
Thanks for that info.
Seems to be still going but not as I knew it.
I was in it from Sept 1942 until 15 Aug 1944 (HQ Flight).when I came back to hospital in Wolverhampton for Op.
I had a friend in it who went all the way to the end of hostilities I met up in Germany 1946 and we were friends till his death a couple of years ago.
Not a great amount of info of early days
I also knew CO of 651.
Bob T.
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Hi Bob
It is sad that the AOP units are so under-represented in the literature, especially as the little I have read about them, and their Austers, is fascinating.
I could look up any names in the indexes of the two books, if you like.
Another excellent read is Maslen-Jones' Fire by Order: Recollections of Service With 656 Air Observation Post Squadron in Burma which you may have seen.
K
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Hi BoB T and K,
I am mainly posting on this topic to ensure that I see any new posts.
I am very interested because my dad was a royal artillery man from as far as I can gather from about may 1942,most of the informaton I have is totally confusing,for instance he was said to have been a corporal in the military police with the R.A. and also to have been on the 'big guns' in London.
he was also supposed to be as my mother used to say'in the maritime and I know he fractured his foot while parachuting,??? help! another story involved
him being on the ships that brought supplies to the troops(I presume France?
what I'm really saying is that reading the posts on this topic may help me to sort out the confusion enough to pin him down to a particular unit so I can eventually get his service records to add to the family history files and also to be able to explain to his grandchildren what their grandad did in the war.
Anne
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Hi all I expect you've all seen this site but makes good reading for anyone looking into AOP.
http://www.royalartilleryunitsnetherlands1944-1945.com/pageID_6285736.html
http://members.tripod.com/nigelef/maindoc.htm
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Hi Anne
from the evidence it sounds like he was in an anti-aircraft unit in London, before being assigned to a DEMS* unit. He may not have been a corporal MP in the RA but rather assigned security/"provost" duties.
*Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship - for protection against mainly aircraft my merchant ships were equipped with a single anti-aircraft gun, and manned by 3 or 4 RA men. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to track down those who served in DEMS units, but some service records do record which ships they served on.
To apply for his records, knowing he was in the RA should be sufficient
K
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Hi Bob and welcome to RootsChat :) were you at Westley Bob ?
Westley was built with two small hangars in 1938 as home for the West Suffolk Aero Club with its two Taylorcraft Plus C monoplanes. It was too small to be taken over by RAF Volunteer Reserve so private flying was allowed until the war, when it closed.
However, because of the Gibraltar Barracks and Blenheim Camp in Bury, 241 Squadron flew Lysanders here from April to July 1941, to help the army and watch the east coast for any invaders.
The Army Cooperation Command felt that Lysanders were too slow and vulnerable and acquired American Curtiss Tomahawks, but the runway at Westley was not long enough for these, so 241 left for Snailwell.
In August 1942 652 AOP Squadron arrived with Tiger Moths and Austers and training was carried out here in 1943. Auster Squadrons used Westley for training until September 1944.
Today, Westley aerodrome is a housing estate, part of Bury St Edmunds urban growth
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Hi K & Bilge
Tried that Nederlans link and again some info is not quite correct I clicked on 653 as well as the others I dont think it was formed in 1942. more like 1943 as some of the others in part of my un finished War Reciollections
. 1943 We went to
Methven, Perth Scotland.
It was here where the unit was broken up. HQ Flight remained as 652 with all new personel new Officers who were training.The others as follows. We had the option to go or stay.
A Flight.....became..........653 Squadron
B Flight.....became..........654 Squadron
C Flight.....became..........655 Squadron
D Flight.....became..........656 Squadron
The ref to Naval landings is not in my memory as we were spotting for Naval Guns.
We did some exercises, and more equipment arrived I took a party of Signallers and equipment by road to Royal Naval Air Station at Macreanish via the Trosachs for an exercise working with HMS Argos guns and co-operating with naval signallers
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Hi Annie
After leave on our return we went to have a look at the notice board to see where we were posted to and found we were going to 652 Squadron RAF Wesley Bury St. Edmunds. So we set off, and were taken to Preston Station to the train for Cambridge eventually arriving at Bury St. Edmonds, then we were taken on trucks again to a Bigfield on the Newmarket Road in the middle of nowhere but a cafe opposite the entrance. We were made welcome by a Flight Sgt. as the Army were only just arriving I think we picked up more people en route. There was a Lysander there and a Gypsy moth.
lWe did all sorts of odd jobs until our equipment arrived and the RAF vehicles were taken away. We then became a unit with training exercises etc. It was at this time they changed the phonetic language from Ack Beer
that we had just learnt to Able Baker Charlie Dog Easy Fox we went To Newmarket with American Air Corps. to familiarise us with it.(We had different food and three cooked meals each day) We were in a wooded area on the perimeter
Bob T.
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Hi Again Annie
Where did the quote come from?
Bob
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Thanks for that K,surprised about the M.P part as he had been a 'red cap'
in the irish army before joining the British army.its said he guarded the
Arsenal at Woolwich and was added to the missing list by mistake because the arsenal
was bombed and his friend had asked him to swap duties with him,his friend was killed,the confusion arose because my dad had gone to the cinema
and an announcement was made asking all soldiers to return to barracks.
there are more details about this but none that would identify the poor soldier who was killed.among the many stories told there was mention of being in Grimsby and Southampton or portsmouth.he enlisted in Northern Ireland although he lived in Dublin.sorry for the novel,I will try to get his service records soon.
Anne
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Thanks for that K,surprised about the M.P part as he had been a 'red cap' in the irish army before joining the British army.
Hi Anne
The reason I said that was because it was rare, though not impossible, to transfer between the RMP and the RA. But the fact that he was an "MP" in the RA does seem to imply guard duties. If he had been an MP, ie Red Cap, then he would not have been in the Royal Artillery as they are two seperate units. He may have guarded a RA base but still wouldn't have been described as being in the RA.
But his service records may well prove me wrong :)
K
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Hi Bob
thank you for your interesting post about the different squadrons. I have just scanned the last few pages of the aforementioned Unarmed Into Battle and if you PM me your email address I can send them to you. You may find them interesting.
K
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Hi Again Annie
Where did the quote come from?
Bob
I got it from here Bob ! :D
http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/sebc/visit/rafhist.cfm
I love hearing stories like yours .. I'll listen as long as you want me to !! :D :D :D
Annie :)
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There may be some confusion here as an RMP or a Military Policeman (aka.RedCap) he would have been in the Royal Military Police and only attached to the Royal Artillery.
However he may have been an RP Regimental Police who's members belong to that Regiment in this case the Royal Artillery.
All military unit have RP but not many have RMP attached.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Police
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regimental_police
Then of course there were the independent Civilian Police Forces i.e Air Ministry Constabulary, Army Department Constabulary, many of whom lost their lives during the war.
http://www.policememorial.org.uk/Forces/Ministry_of_Defence/Ministry_of_Defence_Roll.htm
http://www.questonline.co.uk/topics/local_government/focus_on_the_ministry_of_defence_police_mdp
I hope this helps you to understand the Law and discipline situation in the War Department at the time.
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Thanks again K.you've given me a few new words to
google with :) and I have found the explanation about
R.M.P and M.P.s attached to regiments on wikipedia.
so I understand where I was going wrong.
and to BoB.T , a very warm welcome to rootschat and
sorry for 'hijacking' your topic,like annie I look forward to
more of your stories.
Anne
our posts crossed bilge ,thanks for the links
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Your welcome ;)
As a mater of interest my Grandfather David William Jenkins was killed in the attack that Ch/Insp Hursey was killied in in 1942 at ROF Hereford.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,331945.0.html
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I am glad that I have found this forum. I am looking for experts on AOP Squadrons RAF.
The Dutch Studygroup Airwar 1939-1945 is working on a publication about the history of the Dutch airfields during WWII. Part of this study are the ALGs used by the AOP Squadrons of the RAF. I have studied the ORBs of these units in the NA at Kew. At this moment we are preparing a map with the ALGs used by these Squadrons. The ORBs are a big help. But of one of the Squadrons, 660 (AOP) Sqn. RAF, the ORB was not complete when I studied them about 9 years ago. Form 540 of March, April and May 1945 were not present. The Flights of this unit were supporting the advance of 2nd and 3rd Can. Inf. Divisions in the Northern part of the Netherlands. Who can help me withe names or locations of the ALGs used by the Flights of this Squadron in the final three months of WWII?
Jaap Woortman
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Hi Jaap,
i was only in 652 from it's fomation in 1942 then went on the advance party on D Day then I went over the Benouville Bridge to 6th airborne base as a loaned sigs operator for 2 weeks then back to Plumeto then on Aug 15th left the unit and was flown back to uk to hospital for operation.
My school friend who was in it as well went all the way to Germany with them but unfortunately died a couple of years ago, If I known about the book that Kyt recomended and I recieved on 25 Dec. I would have been more informed.
Bob T.
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Hello Jaap,
welcome to Rootschat and happy new year.
Jefford's RAF Squadrons has 660 at Berg en Dal on 04 March 45 -later in March to Kleve - in April at Vermeppen and going to Evere (B56) in June.
Next time you are at Kew, AIR10/3962 (Location of Units in the Royal Air Force Jan. 1945-June 1945 Issue 52-57) might be worth checking.
I like your avatar..keeping up the traditions of the KLu.
Dave
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Hi Jaap,
...If I known about the book that Kyt recomended and I recieved on 25 Dec. I would have been more informed.
Bob T.
Bob,
Thanks for your answer. I have found in the last 20 years the following publications about AOP during WWII. I will mention it here because they could also be of interest for other people.
The first one I have as a copy and the second one I have as a book.
- Maj. Adrew Lyell, DFC, CdeG, RA. Memoirs of An Air Observation Post Officer. Chippenham. 1985.
- H.J.Parham and E.M.G. Belfield. Unarmed into Battle. Chippenham. 1986.
- Battle History 666 1945. Republished by Abel Book Company, Calgary, 2006 - a 37-page history endorsed by Major A.B. Stewart.
- Canada's Flying Gunners: A History of the Air Observation Post of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery Lt.-Col. D.L. Fromow (Ottawa: Air O.P. Pilots Association, 2002)
- Where The Hell Are The Guns? George Blackburn, MC (Toronto: McClelland & Stewart, 1997).
Dave,
Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Jefford's work.
I have Halley's The Squadrons of the Royal Air Force, but also am familiar with Jefford.
They both have mentioned the locations of the HQ Flights. I have checked it with the ORBs of the units.
Will check Air 10/3962, have missed that one. Good point! Thanks.
Jaap
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Hi Jaap
H.J.Parham and E.M.G. Belfield. Unarmed into Battle. Chippenham. 1986.
is the book I now have.
I also knew personally before the war Major Allan Newton But when he came to see us in Ayr I underestood he was CO of 651 and he he had Desert Rats Emblem. But not according to that book.
We were
652 "Cobley's Flying Circus"
Cheers Bob T.
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I'd love to find out more about 652. My father, Billy Chadkirk, was an RA sargeant seconded to the squadron when it was formed at Old Sarum. He flew in to Plumetot on the 7th June 1944. I've read the squadron war diaries in the National Archives in Kew and recognised the details of some of the stories he told. He wa discharged at Aarnham in 1945. Unfortunately he died before I managed to get any coherent narrative from him.
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Hi,
I do not recall that name.
652 was formed at RAF base moved to Westley nr Bury St Edmonds in Sept 42. I was posted there and it was the begining of a new experience as we were not allowed to drive the vehicles as they were RAF. With personel coming in everyday we got Army vehicles and equipment and were copleted as a unit. I was in the advance party that went in on D day we marched to Plumetot some one else was driving my vehicle. I was loaned to the RA bty with 6 th Airborne for two weeks as they lost there signalers. I came back to England in a Dakota from Beayeure to Swindon then to hospital Wolverhamton on 15 Aug 1944.
I will send a PM later.
Cheers Bob T.
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Dear Bob,
I found one of your old blog messages and it refers to 'Cobley's flying Circus'
I would love to know more about him if you knew him. R R Cobley that is.
He was my uncle and I have been doing some research on his war and post war exploits.
I have ordered the book 'unarmed into battle' as a stating point for his war
environment but as I have no idea as to what is in it I dont know if he is mentioned.
If you knew him and have any photos I would be very happy to see them. If it is of any
interest to you I can tell you his post war history. It is somewhat amazing. There is a
museum built to immortalise his last action.
Even if it is not interesting to you please do let me know, however, anything
that you have got will be interesting to me
regards
Charles Cobley
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Hi
Just looked at my RAF Sqns book and it says for 652 Sqn:
No. 652 was formed at Old Sarum on 1 May and went to Normandy with the 2nd army in June 1944, taking part in the campaign in France, the Low Countries and Germany for the rest of the war. It remained in Germany as part of the occupation forces, later becoming a unit of the Army of the Rhine until absorbed by the Army Air Corp.
Not much unfortunately but it might be worth contacting the AAC (I am sure they have a museum) for more details.
Dee
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Hi Dee, and Charles PM to you.
not been on here for a while and not noticed additions for which I apologise.
Yes 652 formed 1 May 1942 Old Sarum, moved to Westley Aug 1942.
The info on the Site I first looked on changed to Army Air Corps not a lot of info some on 662 sounded like what i knew but wrong squadron as it did not go to France until days later. Anothher site on the Canadian Landings mentioned "A" Flight 652 going on in D Day but think it should have been a Flight of 652 as I was in it and in HQ Flight.
Thanks to Kyt's info & my son getting me the book I have correct some errors
A Flight.....became..........65?Squadron B Flight.....became..........65?Squadron
C Flight.....became..........65? Squadron D Flight.....became..........65? Squadron
as the dates would not fit but they were definately used to form new squadrons. Also
Major Newton was not the CO of 651 but an X Capt of 651 shot down and awarded MBE promoted to Major when he visited us at Ayr and CO of another Squadron c1945
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Hi Dee,
thank you for your info. I have contacted the museum and they are willing to help 'dig' if I give them the basic information.
They were very positive. I am trying to put together a profile of the man major Ralph Cobley both during and after the war.
Anything that anyone can give me would be gratefully received. We do not even have any photos of him while in 652 AOP squadron. It is very difficult for non service people to put together any kind of accurate picture without help. So thank you in advance for anything
at all!!
Charles
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Hi Charles,
My Friend Arnold, and I were C/O drivers when his driver was on leave. We were D/R's when the Two brothers D/R's went on leave,and he called us Mr Heath & Mr Robinson as we managed to refill the charging engines with petrol on auto - fill to save getting up at 04.00 hrs as we couldn't rely on the duty guards to do it. [part of the things I have written about in 652]
Cheers Bob T.
Did you get my EM Add ?
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Glad the museum is willing to help. They usually love a challenge...
The book has even briefer details for 653 to 662 Sqn 652, 653, 654, 655, 658,660, 661 & 662 were all formed at Old Sarum at various dates in 1942 & 1943 and seem to have supported the Army. Some were absorbed into the AAC and some disbanded..
Dee
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Dear Bob,
It is funny that he should have used those names above all others as my grandmother, his mother used the expression 'Heath Robinson' all the time. I have replied to your em earlier and I hope it explains a bit. I would like to expand a bit on your time with Ralph. You are probably the only people who could tell me what kind of person he was. Dynamic / Boreing / etc. There is noone left in my family who can give me any information they are all gone. He, Ralph, had no wife nor children and died very young. Whatever recollections you have put colour to the image that we have of him. We know that he was a bit of a tearaway at sandhurst and had an outrageous sense of humour when young. He was nearly thrown out of the force but somehow was miraculously saved by an air vice marshall but I dont remember which one. I hope that the questions are not boreing but finding someone who knew him even a bit is a little light at the end of the tunnel.
all the best
Charles
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Hi Dee,
It sounds to me like I should try again to get his service records. We tried once before some time ago and got a not so polite letter. Unfortunately i can not find the letter to jog my memory as to why they refused. It seemed strange at the time as we are his closest remaining relatives. Thanks again for your advice.
atb
Charles
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hi Charles
Sorry about the error on the PM
re - sent it.
& Hi Dee
I found not much info from The RAF Site then it was transfered to Army Air Corps with less info.
Tried to contact the Officers Site as the President was Lt Col Nielson, and he was our 2nd in comand as a Capt in 652.when we did duty run for stores he sat with me in 3 Ton Bedford TC. No luck with it .
The Books seem highly priced on Amazon
Cheers Bob T.
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Hi
If you try Abe books or Alibris sometimes the books can be cheaper. Depends how rare or how out of print they are. Books are my one real vice. I think I have spend about £250 on books re Bomber Command and the aircraft over last 6 months! My most expensive book so far has been £45 on the History of 75 Sqn!
Dee
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Hi Charles. Whilst researching signatures in what seems to be a visitors book for No 17 Air Intelligence Liaison Section, 63 Squadron, I came across Major Ralph Cobley. He signed the book on 9 April 1943, giving Officer Commanding 652 AOP Squadron as his address. Let me know if you'd like information about this book (it contains the signatures of many well-known senior RAF and Army personnel who were attending various intelligence courses). Regards, Trevor Baker
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Hi,
I recently downloaded 652 PDF records for 1942 to Dec 1944 and found out that I actually landed at 2:30 am D+1 with vehicles and marched to Plumetot as advance not gone as expected.
very interesting reading with my name on one page when Major Newton was visiting us in Scotland 1953
Bob T
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I have come into possession of a document titled ‘The Liberation’ that I think may be of interest to some who have been contributing to this thread. I've attached a scan of the front cover.
It is described as:
The Liberation is an attempt to provide a memory of the operations of the 1st British Corps from D day to the river Maas. The views are as we saw them and will remember them.
Cobley (Signature – hard to make out)
Major, R.A.
Officer Commanding
652 (AOP) Squadron, R.A.F.
It contains 26 square period photographs covering the following topic – and others:
The first A.O.P. ALG in Normandy.
Time devoted to reconnaissance is seldom wasted. Caption Bawden returns with replacement
aircraft from England
B.4. Beny-sur-Mer Ducks and Daks.
Ranville. Pegasus at home
Pegasus alights
D.F. Fire. 51 Div. St. Honorine La Chardonarette
Carpiquet Aerodrome
La Bijude
"Mustang” grazing (downed aircraft)
I've been trying to do some research on the 652, and came across this thread.
Please let me know if you'd like any more details. I'd love to learn more about this.
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very interesting. I came back to England on 15th of August 1944 to hospital for op I was was waiting for before we we went across. I was Driver that took in Sick Parade (FAP) and while waiting for them I was accosted by A Red Banded Hatted Officer that asked why I was limping. I told him and he wanted to know why I hadn't reported sick. I told him that I had reported sick and was waiting to go in Shenley Green Hospital so he took me somewhere else to see some one and then took me to CCRS with a label on my collar "Return to UK for Op" When the sick parade came out they were looking for the Driver.
I was in CCRS too late for dinner but I had a sweet, rice pudding and Apricots. Then waited to find out what was happening . We heard that the returning Landing Barges were being sunk by Midget Subs, not very exiting, but some casualties were being flown back in the Empty Dakota's from Bayeaux to Swindon, which I went back in.
The photos sound interesting as My friend went the full distance with 652 I often see his daughter as she lives near me I was her Godfather and she would be interested.
Bob T.
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5 years later.... Hello again to Bobsy I must say that I am very happy to re find this conversation still running. A bit late but Mr PHLarris, I was very happy and interested to see the cover 'liberation' and am intrigued to see what else you have. As written earlier in this blog R R Cobley was my uncle. We have read about the AOP and some of its exploits as suggested by Bobsy and are interested to know more. We followed my uncle and his story until his probable demise in Indonesia with the independance movement flying catalinas to help them against the dutch and have a mixture of history and legend on that side.... However, we have never had anything, apart from a few photos and references on the AOP side so if you are in a position to put them on the blog or 'share' them it would be really interesting.
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Good morning.
I'm really late to this thread bu though I'd join in. I served in 652 Sqn AAC (operating Wildcat helicopters out of RNAS Yeovilton) a few years ago.
I will be delivering a battlefield tour in Normandy to current members of 652 Sqn in July 23. I'd love to hear about anything about the Sqn during the period Jun-July 44. I understand there were 3 KIA at the time. I've identified 1 pilot and we will visit the grave an pay our respects appropriately. It would be nice to be able to identify the other 2, I believe 1 pilot and 1 observer.
I'd also love to have sight of the booklet 'Liberation' by Maj Cobley and talk to Bob T if able.
That's enough for now.
Kind Regards,
Matt
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Hi Matt. I have just re-started researching this topic, and was amazed to see your recent post. I'd be very happy to share 'The Liberation' with you. I have been trying to track down the official 652 Sqdn Historian (if such a thing exists), but it's not an easy task. If you could help with that, it would be great, as I'd love to contribute this to the Squadron history.
Regards
Phil
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Phil,
Thanks' for getting in touch. I don't appear to be able to PM
I'll pass you my phone number and we can chat about this.
Thanks' again.
Regards,
Matt
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@Matt - Apparently once you've posted 2 posts, then you can message. You should be good to go now.
Phil