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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Cell on Wednesday 02 February 05 00:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'd really like some suggestions for tracing this family please. I'm at a total loss with them,and perhaps someone here could suggest something to find them which I may be totally overlooking, and have not thought of.
I can not find my Great grandmother Florence (or her parents) in the 1881 census, or 1891. The only census I have with Florence is in 1901 when she is married with children. I have no siblings for her, and no clue about her parents family either :
Florence Rosina Batten born 17 June 1871, address 1 Goodhind st, Bristol.
mother Susannah Pattison
father Joseph batten, occupation carpenter
(info from Florence's birth cert)
in 1881 Florence should be 10 years old, I have searched for with her birth name "Batten" ( also all other mistranscribed names that I can think of , batter, Battle , Bitten,Button etc etc,the list goes on and on. I've basically gone through the whole alphabet ). I have searched for her using her mother's maiden name - Florence Pattison ( Patterson etc etc) . I have also searched for her using just her Christian name ( just in case her mother has re-married and Florence is going under the name of Florence Smith or whatever) . Also have searched using a wide birth range just in case the census is mistranscribed. I have also tried searching for her by her middle name , just in case she is going by her middle name Rosina.
1891 , no sign of her either . Later in 1891 ( after the census date - Oct/Dec quarter ,BedweltyMonmouthshire ) she marries an Alfred Quarman . I have searched for her using the above methods, plus the Quarman name just in case she is living with him before they are married ( can not find her soon to be husband Alfred in 1891 either, I have him in all the other census though)
1871 - I have what may be her parents ( below *), but can't really prove it is them, even if it is them it still is not much use to me (as they are the only people in the house, no kids, or other relatives) ,as I can not trace this couple any further with the info I have. I have searched through pages of entries for a Susannah pattison and Joseph Batten marriage ( using 1837 site) around 1871 ( when Florence was born) . I think I searched five or 6 years after 1871, and around 8or 9 years before 1971
*info :5 Morton Street
St James And St Paul
Bristol Gloucestershire
Joseph Batten Head 33 b Chew Magna Somerset . occupation Carpenter
Susan Jane Batten Wife 27 b Plymouth Devon
Births for the parents Joseph and SusannahI haven't searched because there are too many Joseph Batten's etc, and I have no way in knowing which Joseph Batten is my Joseph. same goes for Susannah.
1901 - I have Florence , her husband Alfred and kids in the census, living in Glamorgan.
sorry for this long post, this is all the info I have on them. I've been trying to find Florence ( and her parents) as a child in 1881 for almost a year now, and also 1891, and having no luck what so ever. I'm pulling my hair out over this family! :'(
My thoughts are these, she may be totally mistranscribed in 1881, but surely she can't be mistranscribed in 1891 too with a simple name such as Batten? Also, why would they not fill in two censuses, one maybe ,but two?? The only thing that I can think of, her mother has re-married and she is known as Florence "smith" etc. Or perhaps I have a family of travellers ( gypsies)? . Or maybe they went to Ireland could be another long shot.
Am I overlooking anything which is the reason why I can't find them? I would dearly love to find them in the 1881 census to find out more about her parents, or any other siblings.
Thanks for any suggestions :)
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Hi Cell
Could we go back to the beginning please?
I assume that you have a birth certificte for one of Alfred & Florence's children? And this gives the parents names as Alfred QUARMAN and Florence nee BATTEN?
Could you please post the 1901 census details - I can't find them in 1901?
Casalguidi
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This is a tough one. Do you have the names of the witnesses from Florence and Alfred's marriage certificate? And does it give Florence and Alfred's addresses? The only thing I could find is an entry on the IGI for Florence's baptism 10 Aug 1871 at Bristol, which gives her father's name as Joseph Batten and her mother as Susanna Jane. There is also a baptism entry for Susanna Jane Patterson 28 Jan 1844 at Swindon, Wiltshire, parents Robert and Margaret, but whether this is the right person I can't say.
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LIKE THE OTHERS I CANNOT FIND ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE BAPTISM AND THE MARRIAGE OF FLORENCE.
MAYBE YOU COULD POST THE 1901 CENSUS, MAY HELP.
NICKY
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I have the birth cert of my grandmother Gladys May Quarman who was born 3rd march 1900, her father is Alfred Quarman, timberman in coalmine,and her mother Florence Rosina Quarman formerly known as Batten (as per birth cert) .
My father as a young child knew his grandfather was Alfred quarman, plus some of the other siblings of his mother Gladys, who are in the census below. I also have a photo's of Alfred and some of their children, no doubt at all these are the parents.
My father also knew his grandmother was Florence and came from the Bristol area somewhere , but he had never heard of the Batten maiden name . Oddly enough though ,he had heard of the Pattison name being mentioned by his mother, but not the Batten name - her mother's own maiden name, and yet she mentioned her Grandmother's maiden name ,I find that a bit odd. We only found out she was Batten, when I started tracing the tree, and he went and got the birth cert of his mother Gladys, which stated her mother was Florence Rosina Batten.
They ( Florence, Alfred Quarman, my g mother and siblings) are mistranscribed in 1901 census as Ouasman RG13/5003
living in Ynysbwl, Paget st ( same road my Grandmother was born at), East Glamorgan.
I have Florence's birth cert which states she was born 1871 in Bristol, mother Susannah Jane Pattison, and Joseph Batten , carpenter ( when my grandmother Gladys was alive she also told my mum, that her mother's lot were Pattison's, and she my grandmother moved around a lot as a young girl, again not mentioning that her mother florence's maiden name was Batten)
The Florence Rosina Batten on the IG is almostly certainly the correct one. Susannah Jane Pattison is on the birth cert "Susanna Jane on the IG is probably mistranscribed ( as they haven't got her maiden name"Pattison" either on there) , or perhaps my birth cert with the "H" for Susannah is incorrectly spelled.
Florence and Alfred's marriage is not on the IG, but I've found that in the BMD's, Bedwelty Monmouth (same place where their oldest son was born) . I haven't got their marriage cert yet, but was also thinking along the same lines for the witnesses and addresses.
Alfred would have only been 18 , nearly 19 yrs old marrying Florence. I also have his birth cert ( and mother's cert , his parents marriage etc) , he was born in Jan 1873, and have traced him and his family "Quarman" back a bit, but at a brick wall with his wife Florence Batten and her parents susannah pattison/Joseph Batten
Image from 1901 attached below ( East glamorgan), can anyone read the birth place of Alfred H (the son) , I can't make out where in Monmouth he was born( New? something?)That may be a big help , as I then can search that area in 1891 for them. If they are there they must be totally mistranscribed . I've searched trying all different kinds of variants for Quarman, Batten etc and I am drawing big blanks. same goes for the 1881 census ( I've got Alfred in 1881 as a child, but not Florence, or her parents ( same goes for 1891). The only census I have with her in it is this 1901 one , when she is married to Alfred. Her family are one hell of a mystery to me)
Thanks ever so much for your help :)
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Hi Cell
I have also had a look around for them in 1891 and still can't see anything obvious.
Quite honestly I think that the next step is to get the marriage certificate for Alfred and Florence. Hopefully you will get another clue or two and be able to confirm that you are on the right track with both families especially given that Florence's age on the 1901 census indicates that she was probably born 1875-1876 and the birth certificate you have is for 1871. It's not unusual for ages on census returns to be misleading I know but you do need that certificate to confirm (or otherwise) the information that you have.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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You could also try posting the image on the Monmouthshire message board to see if anybody can make out that birthplace. I've had trouble with place names for a few of my Welsh ancestors because they tend to have a few versions of each name!
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Having said that, I wonder if it could be "New Tredegar"? If such a placename existed?
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Hi Looks like New Tredegar which is in Caerphilly S. Wales but the borders were changed in the UK at some time, so could have been Monmouth!
Good Luck
SS
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New Tredegar, Monmouthshire did / does indeed exist. I was about to suggest it, too :D
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Hi Cell
I checked Florence on Freebmd which gave me her registration district as 'Clifton'.
I then did a 1867-1876 search on Batten births registered also in Clifton - and got 16 hits.
They can't all be from the same family (obviously), but the names are:
1867 Albert Henry
1870 Alice Emily / Rhoda / Reuben
1871 Alice Maria
(and Ernest William, Edward George, Lilian Sabrina, George Sidney, Caroline, Margaret Theodosia, etc, etc).
Thought if you could locate them on 1881 census it might just 'throw up' your Florence, Joseph and Susanna.
Only other way round is trawl the other internet message sites to see if anyone else researching the Battens, i.e. GenesReunited, Ancestry message boards, Rootsweb, etc.
Strange as it seems to us - not everyone's heard of Rootschat yet - although I do try and spread the word where I can ! ;D
Hope this helps
Helen x
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Thanks everbody for all your help
The New Tredegar does explain something. Later on this family lived in the reg district Caerphilly (Glamorgan) for years, and one of the kids (the oldest Alfred H , known to my family as “Harry” (for some odd reason)worked in Bedwas pit, and was in the mining disaster/explosion of 10th Oct 1952 ( which I found was listed as being in Monmouthshire and Caerphilly/Glamorgan too, depending on what search I put in) . It Seems that too is right on the border . Harry (Alfred H/Henry) was badly burnt in this disaster , I have pictures of “Harry” before and after the accident ( one below, which was taken around the late 30's or even 1940/41 maybe – I’m going by the age of the little boy in the photo ,who was born around 1935 . I won’t bore you with my mystery old lady photo, who is either Florence, or my other G Grandmother lol ;D), and the other is after 1952 when his face is all burnt, and meeting the mayor, presumably the ceremony had something to do with the survivors of this explosion in the Bedwas navigation colliery.
Thanks so much for your suggestion Helen, I never thought of that with the Batten name -[ (although I have used this technique with the more unusual names for my other lines, it didn’t dawn on me to try it with these “common” names).
Now I’ve got something else to think of. Looking at all the names, –in the same quarter Florence was registered there is a death of a Susan Batten age 24. In the 1871 census, I have a Susan Jane Batten age 27(whether this is my “Susannah or not) , I can’t find this Susan in any of the later censuses either, she disappears off the face of the planet. I’m now wondering if this is her in the deaths, Age is out by three years (but deaths, and censuses tend not to be too accurate on ages) .
The mystery deepens; my head is all in a buzz ;D. Pure, pure speculation of course, and I’m probably going right off in the wrong direction here with this theory , but now I’m thinking perhaps she died a couple months after giving birth to Florence (Florence’s actual birth was in June , but she falls into the July/sept quarter in the indexes because she was registered on the 28th of July by her mother) ,and this is why my father never knew his grandmother Florence’s maiden name was Batten until he had his mum’s birth cert ,but he had heard of the Pattison name. Maybe she was brought up my her grandmother Pattison (who ever she is) , or someone in the Pattison family, and not the Batten family..
Thanks again for all your help, I most certainly will get the marriage for Alfred and Florence and see if it throws a little light on it
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Hi Cell I looked up Alfred Henry QUARMAN's birth on the GRO index
He was registered in the Sept qtr 1892 at Bedwelty, Wales 11a 105? (not too clear).
Regards
SS
West Oz
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...and Bedwelty is the registration district for New Tredegar :D
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Hi,
Yes I've got the dates and reg districts for the other kids ( haven't got their birth certs, except for Gladys)
Alfred Henry Sept 1892 Bedwelty
Bertie Ernest Sept 1894 Keynsham ( he was probably born at oldland common, Alfred's childhood home. Probably back at his mother's home ,who was still living there during that period)
Ada Beatrice June 1898 Pontypridd
Gladys may 3rd march 1900
Edgar sept 1901 Pontypridd Death Aug 1956
Florence R Dec 1903 “ “
Ivor Victor Dec 1906 “ “
Violet Irene Dec 1908 “ “
Clifford Aug 1913 - death sept 1913
Donald - birth date not known ( have an old photo of him as young boy), but he comes after 1901, probably after 1908
I have traced the Quarman name back a bit ,1794 to Alfred's Grand father. Then from there backwards . I just need to 100% prove the generations I have before Alfred's G father 1794 to 1730.
It's a relatively "easier" name to trace than most, unlike "Batten". There are not that many "Quarman" families
But having said that , they are giving me some right pains/frustrations tracing them. It didn't help when Alfred's own parents where not married for years, just living in sin with the Quarman name , then apart, under her maiden name, then back again until they finally tied the knot .
I also have Two Quarman brothers, further back, marrying a Martha Long and a Martha Short - unbelievable lol .My ancestor is the Long one, my "Aunt" is the Short one . I'm having odd images in my mind of one Martha being very short in stature and the other being very tall !
lol ;D)
It's Florence's lot that I'm not getting anywhere with. I'm just going around and around in circles with them.
1901 census for Florence's age 25 I think must be way out . Maybe the enumerator got it wrong, or perhaps she wouldn't admit to being older than Alfred( she should be 30 , that is if I have the correct birth cert for her,) . If I don't have the correct birth cert and she is 25 in 1901, that would mean she would only be around 15 when she married Alfred :o. ( I know girls could marry at 12 with parents consent).
Alfred should not be "of full age" on it ( unless he lies about his age at the time of marriage), he was just 18 going on 19
Sometimes it does help to put your thoughts down, enough of my long post lol
Thanks all for your help , one marriage certificate on it's way, hopefully it will help with finding Florence's family
:)
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Hi Cell
I think you only recourse is to await the marriage certificate of Florence and Alfred. They were both under the legal age for marriage so unless they lied, permission would have had to have been given by a guardian for the marriage to take place.
Have you requested a search of the address where Florence Rosina was born in 1871 census. I know families moved regularly but census was taken in April and Florence was born in June. The ancestry site doesn't appear to have all Bristol districts. (only district 15 for Bristol)
The 1891 census has a number of Battens living in the Bedwellty district. These people could be connected. Address where Florence was living at time of marriage could be checked.
I note on the 1871 census a Joseph Batten born Devon aged 37 carpenter attached to the Royal Navy and serving on the "Blanche" situated Bass Strait, Australia. (Can't view the image so couldn't tell if he was married).
Is the reason they are not on the census, that they travelled with him!!!
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni,
I still haven't yet come across Goodhind st in 1871 on ancestry. I haven't got to clue how to find it in 1871.
I've checked in 1881 at 1 Goodhind st , and they are not there. Desmer or Denner family is at that address, I've looked at the original image on ancestry and it's definitely not the Battens mistranscribed.
Yes I came across a Joseph Batten on the ship in the Bass Straits many months ago now. There's no way of telling if it's him.
Could be, like you have suggested , they travelled with him in 1881 etc, who knows, or perhaps my family are tinkers/travelers that did not fill out the censuses.
:)
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Hi Cell
If you want to try and find Goodhind Street in 1871 census:
Go to the 1881 and make a list of a number of families living in the area - that page and a few before & after. Also make a note of the streets before and after Goodhind Street. Search for these in 1871 - there are bound to be some families still living in the same area - then just work back and forth a couple of pages to find the address.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Hi,
Well, quite a story!!!!
I too am searching Battens and have come across a few. But doing a search on ancestry I came across a joseph ? looked on the image and it looks like Joseph Batten who is a blacksmith, now did you know that in that day, the blacksmith was also the carpenter/coffinmaker? He was also lodging with a cabinet maker (carpenter)
I have saved the image, so if you want to see it then contact me at * and I will gladly email it to you.
regards
Dawn
Hi,
I'd really like some suggestions for tracing this family please. I'm at a total loss with them,and perhaps someone here could suggest something to find them which I may be totally overlooking, and have not thought of.
I can not find my Great grandmother Florence (or her parents) in the 1881 census, or 1891. The only census I have with Florence is in 1901 when she is married with children. I have no siblings for her, and no clue about her parents family either :
Florence Rosina Batten born 17 June 1871, address 1 Goodhind st, Bristol.
mother Susannah Pattison
father Joseph batten, occupation carpenter
(info from Florence's birth cert)
in 1881 Florence should be 10 years old, I have searched for with her birth name "Batten" ( also all other mistranscribed names that I can think of , batter, Battle , Bitten,Button etc etc,the list goes on and on. I've basically gone through the whole alphabet ). I have searched for her using her mother's maiden name - Florence Pattison ( Patterson etc etc) . I have also searched for her using just her Christian name ( just in case her mother has re-married and Florence is going under the name of Florence Smith or whatever) . Also have searched using a wide birth range just in case the census is mistranscribed. I have also tried searching for her by her middle name , just in case she is going by her middle name Rosina.
1891 , no sign of her either . Later in 1891 ( after the census date - Oct/Dec quarter ,BedweltyMonmouthshire ) she marries an Alfred Quarman . I have searched for her using the above methods, plus the Quarman name just in case she is living with him before they are married ( can not find her soon to be husband Alfred in 1891 either, I have him in all the other census though)
1871 - I have what may be her parents ( below *), but can't really prove it is them, even if it is them it still is not much use to me (as they are the only people in the house, no kids, or other relatives) ,as I can not trace this couple any further with the info I have. I have searched through pages of entries for a Susannah pattison and Joseph Batten marriage ( using 1837 site) around 1871 ( when Florence was born) . I think I searched five or 6 years after 1871, and around 8or 9 years before 1971
*info :5 Morton Street
St James And St Paul
Bristol Gloucestershire
Joseph Batten Head 33 b Chew Magna Somerset . occupation Carpenter
Susan Jane Batten Wife 27 b Plymouth Devon
Births for the parents Joseph and SusannahI haven't searched because there are too many Joseph Batten's etc, and I have no way in knowing which Joseph Batten is my Joseph. same goes for Susannah.
1901 - I have Florence , her husband Alfred and kids in the census, living in Glamorgan.
sorry for this long post, this is all the info I have on them. I've been trying to find Florence ( and her parents) as a child in 1881 for almost a year now, and also 1891, and having no luck what so ever. I'm pulling my hair out over this family! :'(
My thoughts are these, she may be totally mistranscribed in 1881, but surely she can't be mistranscribed in 1891 too with a simple name such as Batten? Also, why would they not fill in two censuses, one maybe ,but two?? The only thing that I can think of, her mother has re-married and she is known as Florence "smith" etc. Or perhaps I have a family of travellers ( gypsies)? . Or maybe they went to Ireland could be another long shot.
Am I overlooking anything which is the reason why I can't find them? I would dearly love to find them in the 1881 census to find out more about her parents, or any other siblings.
Thanks for any suggestions :)
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I am also descended from Alfred!he was my great grandad, I have loads of family history researched, please do not hesitate to contact me anytime
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I am also descended from Alfred!he was my great grandad, I have loads of family history researched, please do not hesitate to contact me anytime
Hi,
Debbie this is a really old thread of mine ( it's from 05). I don't need any info regarding this thread. I traced the family years ago.
I have answered your other post to me in the common room, see your other post .
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=316313.msg5361604#msg5361604
( And thank you for the replies nique and casalguidi :) - a very belated thanks at that!! Your two replies are posts I must have somehow missed at the time , sorry!)
Kind Regards :)
***** Completed******
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Thanks everbody for all your help
The New Tredegar does explain something. Later on this family lived in the reg district Caerphilly (Glamorgan) for years, and one of the kids (the oldest Alfred H , known to my family as “Harry” (for some odd reason)worked in Bedwas pit, and was in the mining disaster/explosion of 10th Oct 1952 ( which I found was listed as being in Monmouthshire and Caerphilly/Glamorgan too, depending on what search I put in) . It Seems that too is right on the border . Harry (Alfred H/Henry) was badly burnt in this disaster , I have pictures of “Harry” before and after the accident ( one below, which was taken around the late 30's or even 1940/41 maybe – I’m going by the age of the little boy in the photo ,who was born around 1935 . I won’t bore you with my mystery old lady photo, who is either Florence, or my other G Grandmother lol ;D), and the other is after 1952 when his face is all burnt, and meeting the mayor, presumably the ceremony had something to do with the survivors of this explosion in the Bedwas navigation colliery.
Thanks so much for your suggestion Helen, I never thought of that with the Batten name -[ (although I have used this technique with the more unusual names for my other lines, it didn’t dawn on me to try it with these “common” names).
Now I’ve got something else to think of. Looking at all the names, –in the same quarter Florence was registered there is a death of a Susan Batten age 24. In the 1871 census, I have a Susan Jane Batten age 27(whether this is my “Susannah or not) , I can’t find this Susan in any of the later censuses either, she disappears off the face of the planet. I’m now wondering if this is her in the deaths, Age is out by three years (but deaths, and censuses tend not to be too accurate on ages) .
The mystery deepens; my head is all in a buzz ;D. Pure, pure speculation of course, and I’m probably going right off in the wrong direction here with this theory , but now I’m thinking perhaps she died a couple months after giving birth to Florence (Florence’s actual birth was in June , but she falls into the July/sept quarter in the indexes because she was registered on the 28th of July by her mother) ,and this is why my father never knew his grandmother Florence’s maiden name was Batten until he had his mum’s birth cert ,but he had heard of the Pattison name. Maybe she was brought up my her grandmother Pattison (who ever she is) , or someone in the Pattison family, and not the Batten family..
Thanks again for all your help, I most certainly will get the marriage for Alfred and Florence and see if it throws a little light on it
Do you have the photo of the old lady you mentioned? Is it Florence or Susanna?