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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: czarnolas on Tuesday 21 October 08 18:07 BST (UK)
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I hope this is the right forum for this post - I had it in Beginners, and decided it might not be the right place.
Briefly, I am trying to achieve two things; tracing the Granshaw line (much as everyone else is doing with their chosen families), but also to determine the origins of the Granshaw name, there being some evidence that at least some Granshaws were Huguenots who came from France at the time of the French revolution.
My last post on the Beginners page was;
Well, this particular line of investigation starts with one of my great-grandfathers; James George Granshaw. He was born on 21st August 1873 to George Granshaw and Maria Granshaw (nee Buck), in Bethnal Green, London (Middlesex). James' birth certificate reveals a certain confusion over the spelling of Granshaw as in three places it was written 'Grandshaw' only to be crossed out and rewritten without the 'd'.
I also found James' parents' marriage certificate (showing that they married on 17th November 1872, also in Bethnal Green). This showed George Granshaw's father as 'James Grandshaw' (note 'd' in Grandshaw).
This is where the trail gets confused/confusing. I haven't been able to find a record of George Granshaw's birth in order to be able to trace which James (i.e. d.o.b) is his father, and hence follow the line. There is one possible George Grandshaw showing in the 1871 census index with a calculated d.o.b. of about 1851. The problem with this is that the 1881 census (which shows George Granshaw, Maria, and James) suggests a birth year of about 1853. To confuse matters further, George's marriage certificate gives an age of 20 in 1872, suggesting a birth year of 1852. Although some of these disparities can be explained through the timing of the census (etc), not all can. I suppose it is possible that he didn't know how old he was and just guessed each time...
The 1861 census shows a James Granshaw married to Sophia, and with several children, one named George, but he was aged 6 at the time, suggesting a birth year of 1855! There are no other references (that I can find) of a suitable combination of names.
There are two or three possible James Granshaws as candidates for George's father, but unless I can get some documentary evidence to link one to George, then I don't see the justification of pursuing any of them.
The one remaining line of enquiry (which I will explore as soon as I can get back to the Library) is the George Grandshaw showing on the 1871 census. If he is the same George who married Maria and became James George's father, then he does not appear to be in a household with a father named James Granshaw (as no none shows in the census index). Possibly James had dies by this time. My only hope is that either his mother or siblings will tie him back to a James Granshaw on an earlier census.
Gaie - the reference you found to a Granshaw in the 17th century seems even stranger given that this does not seem to have been followed by a slow but steady increase in Granshaws over the succeeding 150 years. Perhaps he was a lone member of the family in this country who either died without children, or returned to whichever country he'd come from. What is really strange though is that if the name Granshaw did come here from another country (rather than being adopted here by animigrant family - unlikely given that it appears aparently independently 150 years apart), then where did it come from? Granshaw sounds English - if anything! If it had originated in this country though, then why aren't there more Granshaws (it's a fairly uncommon name, even now)?
The suggestion (despite any other evidence) that the Granshaws were Huguenots is supported by the number of silk weavers (including severl I've identified) of that name.
Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Thanks.
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Just a brief comment...
Although civil registration started in 1837, it wasn't compulsory to register births until the mid-1870's so there may not be a birth cert to find.
Dawn
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Hi Czarnolas :)
Well, I've been running around after these Granshaws/Grandshaws/Grundshaws all day!!!
Been through 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses, passenger lists to Australia, births, marriages, deaths - I may know nearly as much about the Granshaws as you do by now ;D
I had found a few birth entries for a George. However, it wasn't until I looked at the 1881 census (why leave it till last, you ask ???) and noticed that George gives his place of birth as HOLBORN!!!
Poss birth cert:
Jun Qtr 1854 Holborn Vol 1b Page 418
George GRANDSHAW
The 1850 bc for a George, Sep Qtr 1850 Bethnal Green Vol 2 Page 75 is possibly the son of George Granshaw and Sarah Short, poss m Elizabeth Martin Sep Qtr 1871 St George East, and definitely emigrated to Australia on the Silver Eagle, May 1872, with his wife, to his uncle's unknown address; parents named in appropriate column.
The 1856 bc for a George, Mar Qtr 1856 Bethnal Green Vol 1c Page 299 is possibly the son of Thomas Edward Granshaw and Sarah Butler; according to the IGI he was born 11/2/1856, Bethnal Green, but this is an LDS member's submitted entry, so needs checking.
Hope that helps.
Kind regards
Gaie
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dawnsh - thanks for the reminder - yes, I did realise that registration wasn't compulsory at that point. The problem for me (being a comparitive novice at this) is how to bridge the resulting gaps...
Gaie - thanks for all your hard work (seeing the time of your post, I feel more than a little guilty!).
Based on the 1881 census, George would have had a d.o.b. of about 1853
Based on George's marriage certificate, he would have had a d.o.b. of about 1852
Based on date of birth alone, the closest match would seem to be the Grorge Grandshaw born June Qtr 1854. What worries me about this is the disparity over dates though (and I am taking into account the dates of events within each year) - can you or anyone else suggest why there should be such variations in calculated birth years? Even limiting this to the 1881 census and the marriage certificate, this suggests that either George didn't know his age (and guessed inconsistently), or the person writing in the register got it wrong.
I'm making the assumption that the two Georges are in fact the same person - they both married someone named Maria, and the marriage dates are consistent.
The marriage certificate I have must be for the right person (as James George's mother is shown as Maria nee Buck, and George's marriage certificate shows his wife as being Maria nee Buck). It shows George's father as James. This would seem to discount your second two Georges (1850 and 1856).
How else can one confirm that a person shown in one place (e.g. the 1881 census, or James George Granshaw's birth certificate) is the same as that shown elsewhere if the dates of birth are not the same? If George appeared on an earlier (pre 1881) census in a family group (i.e. before he was married) then this would provide a link with his parents, but as I can't find a George with the right d.o.b., and in any case his d.o.b isn't even shown consistently in places where I'm sure I have the right person, this seems to take away one of the main tools for confirming identity!
Do you have access to the detail of the 1871 census? There is a George Grandshaw listed with a calculated d.o.b of 1851 (which would be more or less consistent with the Marriage certificate I have, though not with the 1881 census). I haven't been able to check the census detail yet, but if the 1871 census shows any other family members (siblings perhaps) then it might be possible to tie them back to an earlier James Granshaw.
Sorry for this long and rather rambling explanation.
Thanks again for your help.
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Hi
Don't feel guilty, some postings just grab our attention ;)
No, that George bc1851 is in the household of George & Sarah; George Sr was a paper hanger, George Jr a painter. This is probably the George who went to Australia, mentioned in my previous reply.
Now, the Granshaw family groups do seem to fade in and out of census returns - there is a group in the 1841, parents Isaac & Mary bc 1796 and various children, living in Reading, silk weavers, apparently not born in county, born in foreign parts. I can't find them in the 1851, but can find their son Isaac, his wife and family; they reappear in 1861, bc1791 in Spitalfields, with the youngest child, all born Middlesex! This is just one example.
Either some of the family groups are badly transcribed, or they could have spent some time abroad - for example, 1861 Daniel b 1812 Oxon, wife Ellen b 1817 Cork, son Samuel b 1847 Halifax, Nova Scotia.
Yes, I'd discounted the second two Georges for the reasons given. As that leaves one George born Holborn according to census 1881, and one birth certificate for a George born in Holborn in about the right time (only one or two years out, not uncommon in any of our trees), then it seems very likely that this is the birth certificate to go for. It's entirely up to you.
And of course there is that family group of James and Sophia, with children Sophia, Elizabeth, Mary Ann, James, Thomas and George through 1841-1861 censuses.... or George's father might have been another James.... So you need a bc to confirm your George's mother.
What was James's occupation on the marriage certificate of George and Maria?
Kind regards
Gaie
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Gaie
The marriage certificate of George and Maria shows James Grandshaw (George's father) as a Fringe Manufacturer (quite possibly associated with silk weaving), like his son George and daughter-in-law Maria. Unless I'm mistaken, the James Granshaw you've turned up in the 1841 (and other) census was a 'weaver of silk'.
[Incidentally, it's this preponderance of silk weavers amongst the Granshaws that lends weight to the suggestion of Huguenot ancestry.]
This James Granshaw of the earlier census had a son George (as you mention) whose calculated d.o.b would have been 1855. Although this is within spitting distance of the dates already discussed, it doesn't provide any certainty as to that James being 'my' George's father.
Your suggestion that they might have spent time out of the country is an interesting one. Unfortunately (although it is tempting to start to theorise about links with whichever country the Granshaws originated from), I'm not sure how I could pursue that line of enquiry further. I suppose that as that Jame seems to disappear from the census record, it is possible that rather than having died, he might just have emigrated?
Anyway, thanks again for your help, thoughts and inspiration...
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Incidentally Gaie, you say that Isaac and Mary were apparently not born in the UK - how can you tell, and do the records suggest where they might have been born?
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I guess the silk weaving or fringe trades had gone pear-shaped by 1881, as George became a meat salesman!
I can see extracted birth and christening records for James & Sophia's children Sophia, Elizabeth, and Mary Ann and a submitted entry for James, but nothing for their George. Do you have these?
The 1841 census has two columns on the right hand side.
Main heading: Where born
left column: Whether born in same county
right column: Whether born in Scotland, Ireland or Foreign Parts (ie everywhere else!)
They were filled in thus (ideal world!):
born in same county as residence: 'y' in left hand column
not born in same county as residence but born England & Wales: 'n' in left hand column
born in Scotland: 'n' in left hand column 'S' in right hand column
born in Ireland: 'n' in left hand column 'I' in right hand column
born in Foreign Parts: 'n' in left hand column 'fp' in right hand column
Isaac, Mary and children all had n, fp.
No other info given.
I was hoping to see if George again puts Holborn as his pob in 1891 but I can't find them ???
Kind regards
Gaie
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Gaie
No, I don't have any christening records.
As to Isaac, it's just possible he and Mary his wife are the ones referred to in the information provided to me by the Huguenot society. They were cited as evidence of Huguenot ancestry by a woman applying for alms. It's not completely clear, but see below;
FORECAST, Mary Ann, née Granshaw. Inmate.
e. July 3O, 1921. d. Oct.28, 1928; bur. Manor Park Cemetery "by her Son".
P_: July 6, 1921, regd. July 30, Class C, elected same day. (a) i. Mary Ann Forecast,186, Old Ford Road, par. St. James the Less, Bethnal Green, daughter of Isaac Granshaw, 2 East Street, Bethnal Green and Mary Ann Granshaw,, Medway Road, Bow; ii. Jan.24, 1839, 21 Cross Street, Bethnal Green; iii. On Father & Mother's side who were descended from French Protestant Refugees. The Petitioner's father was the son of Isaac Granshaw, who took refuge in this country at the time of the French Revolution. The Petitioner remembers hearing her Mother say that she (thé Mother) was of French descent. Her sister Elizabeth Granshaw was brought up in the French School in Shaftesbury Avenue; iv. before her marriage a silk weaver, and after her husband's death in April 1913 supplemented the Government Old Age Pension by working as a charwoman until she became too old to do so; v. indigent old age; vi. + The Mark of Mary Ann Forecast; vi. A.W. Waugh. (b) ii. J.P.R. Ree Jones, St. James the Less Vicarage.
Enclosures [all affected by mildew and some almost illegible] :
(l) Certified extract July 5, 1921, Register of Births, Green sub-district, Bethnal Green "Born 24th January 1839, N°.2i Cross Street, Mary Ann [of] Isaac Granshaw, Mary Ann Granshaw, formerly Meek, Weaver"; (2) Marriage certificate, St. Philip' s Church, Bethnal Green, 185-?, writing almost entirely illegible; (3) Memorial card "James Forecast who departed this life 13th April 1913 aged 75 years. Interred at Manor Park Cemetery"; (4) Certified extract Sept.lO, 18O9, Regître des Baptêmes de l'Eglise Françoise de Londre dans
Thread-needle-street "A été baptisée Susanne fille de Jaques Blariaut et de Louise Trifé sa femme. . .Parrain Hubert Parent. . .Marraine Susanne Parent"; (5) Marriage certificate, St. George the Martyr, Southwark, l8l5(?) "Isaac Grandshaw of this Parish Bachelor and Mary Bissey of this Parish Spinster"; (6) Certified extract May 13, 1844, St. Leonard Shoreditch, Marriage register, Dec. 24, l835(?) "Isaac Granshaw, Bachelor, Weaver, Essex St., (father) Isaac Granshaw, Weaver, [and] Mary Ann Meek, Spinster, Weaver, Essex St., (father) Sam-'-. Meek, Weaver".
It may be that this explains the foreign birth - i.e. French...?
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Well, I picked Isaac and Mary c1796 just as an example, so strange that you should have documentation on them already!! Note: no connection shown with your George, but interesting examples of how birth years can vary through different records for the same people.
Mary Forecast nee Granshaw 1839 shown in red.
All from census images:
1841 HO107 36 3 12 19
Commercial Hall, Reading, Berkshire (all weavers’ households on the page)
Isaac GRANSHAW 45 J(ourneyman) Silk Weaver n fp
Mary 45 n fp
Samuel 13 n fp
Benjamin 11 n fp
Thomas 8 n fp
Mary 6 n fp
Joseph 4 n fp
Next door
Isaac GRANSHAW 20 J Silk Weaver n fp
Mary 20 n fp
Mary 2 n fp
1851 HO107 1543 292 48
13 Quaker St, Spitalfields, Middx
Isaac GRANSHAM (sic!) 60 silk weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Mary Wife 60 silk weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Thomas Son 18 silk weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Mary Dau 16 silk weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Joseph Son 14 silk weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
1851 HO107 1542 436 6
15 Anchor St, Bethnal Green Town, Middx
Isaac GRANSHAW Head 33 hand loom weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Mary A Wife 36 hand loom weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Mary A Dau 12 hand loom weaver b Bethnal Green, Middx
Eliza Dau 1 b St Lukes Middx
1861 RG9 265 46 31
13 Quaker St, Spitalfields, Middx
Isaac GRANSHAW Head 70 silk weaver b Middx
Mary Wife 70 weaveress b Middx
Thomas Son 25 labourer docks b Middx
1861 RG9 255 12 27
2 East St, Bethnal Green, Middx
Isaac GRANSHAW Head 44 silk weaver b Middx, Bethnal Green
Mary Wife 41 silk weaver b Middx, Bethnal Green
Sarah Dau 10 b Middx, Bethnal Green
Joseph Son 4 b Middx, Bethnal Green
Elizabeth Dau 1 b Middx, Bethnal Green
1871 RG10 505 25 6
34 Quaker St, Spitalfields, Middx (house divided into three households)
Mary GRANSHAW Head Widow 74 laundress b Middx Bethnal Green
Thomas Son Unm 34 cotton winder b Middx Bethnal Green
1871 RG10 485 27 48
Isaac GRANDSHAW (sic) Head 53 weaver b Middx Bethnal Green
Mary Wife 50 weaveress b Middx Bethnal Green
Sarah Dau 19 a ?narrow b Middx St Lukes
Joseph Son 13 scholar b Middx Bethnal Green
IGI extracted records from parish registers
Marriage: Isaac GRANDSHAW (sic) = Mary BISSEY 17/9/1815 St George the Martyr, Southwark (I’m wondering whether this was a literal writing of the surname BISSET? Could Grandshaw come from GRANDCHAMPS or something similar?)
Born to Isaac Sr and Mary
Elizabeth b 20/5/1820 ch 11/6/1821 St Leonards, Shoreditch
Benjamin b 8/7/1823 ch 28/7/1823 St Leonards, Shoreditch
Thomas born July 1833 ch 28/10/1834 (sic) St Leonards, Shoreditch
Mary Ann b 3/2/1835 ch 2/3/1835 St Leonards, Shoreditch
Marriage: Isaac GRANSHAW = Mary Ann MEEK
24/12/1838 St Leonards, Shoreditch, Middlesex
Born to Isaac Jr & Mary
Mary Ann either Mar Qtr 1839 Bethnal Green Vol 2 Page 46
or Jun Qtr 1839 Bethnal Green Vol 2 Page 52;
- the other Mary Ann was the daughter of James & Sophia – I don’t know which is which.
Eliza Jun Qtr 1849 St Luke Vol 2 Page 298
Sarah Dec Qtr 1851 St Luke Vol 2 Page 299
Joseph Jun Qtr 1857 St Luke Vol 1b Page 542
Elizabeth Dec Qtr 1859 St Luke Vol 1b Page 570
Marriage: James FORECAST = Mary Ann GRANSHAW
Dec Qtr 1858 Bethnal Green Vol 1c Page 691
The Forecasts appear to have been silk weavers as well!
Possible death for Isaac Sr:
Mar Qtr 1866 Whitechapel Aged 76 Vol 1c Page 274
So the census and parish records confirm what was in the information supplied to you by the Huguenot Society for this Mary Granshaw; dates, addresses, etc.
I’ll put James & Sophia in the next posting.
Kind regards
Gaie
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Gaie
You really have been working overtime! Thanks very much for all this information.
I didn't (and don't) think there was a direct link between George and this family, although there might be an indirect one. It is a strange coincidence that you should choose that example when I'd already got some information on them. That said, there weren't that many Granshaws in the country at that point, so perhaps it's not so strange.
The Huguenot society sent me that information just to illustrate the Huguenot connection, as claims to Huguenot ancestry had to be 'proved' before alms would be given. They hold copies of the documents (of which I hope to get copies myself) which were considered t have substantiated the Huguenot claim.
The variances in calculated birth dates are staggering! I can see why you say that the differences I have encountered may not be significant - perhaps George really was the 6 yr old showing in James' household in the 1851 census after all.
One thing does puzzle me - the 1841 census from which you extracted the information about Isaac and family shows not only Isaac but all his family as n, fp, implying that they were all born outside this county. However, from the Huguenot society information, Mary Annis shown as having been born 24th Jan 1839 at 21 Cross Street, Bethnal Green!
GRANSHAW <-> GRANDCHAMPS? ... another intriguing idea. I confess I also wondered about Bissey/Bissett. I suppose there are a number of possible origins of Granshaw, but going back to my earlier post, what I don't understand is how could various branches of the family end up with identical (or near identical) spellings if separated by years, decades or even centuries (ref the 17th C Granshaw as opposed to the ones that supposedly immigrated in the late 1700s)?
Intuitively one would expect all family members with the same (or nearly the same) spelling to have acquired their change of name at the same time surely?
I suppose the only chance of confirming the original name would be to trace a first generation Granshaw and hope to find some documentary clue...
Oh, and by the way; I assume it must be the first of your two MaryAnns asn the Huguenot Society information gives her date of birth as 24th Jan (as I've mentioned).
Thanks again.
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Hi, Czarnolas and Gaie,
I replied on the other thread to Czarnolas as well. I have all these names on my family tree for the Granshaws. There's about 1500 names on it, and it fills a 36 x 48 poster sized sheet. The tree has a lot of holes in it, and so if you'd care to swap information, you're both welcome to a copy. It may at least give you a place to start research.
Granshaws were in the U.S before 1700, so the family line may have started about the middle 1600's. Huguenots were emigrating to all countries, and apparently they went to Virginia as well. None of the heraldry books I've checked has a record of the name, but there were immigrants to the U.S in 1800's from Germany with the name. I hope you get copies of the Huguenot connection, no-one that I've been in contact with seems to have conclusively proved it.
By the way, Isaac was a very popular name with the Granshaws, there was the one 1795-1866 who married Mary Bisset(y?)1791-? and another born 1817.
Good luck on all of this to you both
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Hello
I realise that this thread is quite old now, but came across it researching the Huguenot VENDOME family, as two of the families they intermarried with namely BUCK & FORECAST, are mentioned here. I was suprised to see the Grandshaws mentioned as I researched these in quite some detail back in 2009 as part of my own ongoing researches into the Spitalfields Silk Weaving families.
I have also posted this to your Ancestry 'Granshaw' Group, but duplicate here in the hope it will be seeen and prove useful to GRANDSHAW decendants and researchers.
The name was original spelt variously as GRANSART/GRANDSART/GRASSART in France, (and occasionaly in England too) and came to London's Huguenot community with Jean Jacques GRASSART a refugee in June of 1762. He was then a few weeks shy of his 48th birthday, and was a native of Quievy, in Northern France. His sister had already been in the refuge since 1750 so he was joining relations here. I have traced his ancestry back to his great grandparents Andrieu Gransart and Marie De Mons, Protestants who married in Quievy 28 November 1642.
Jean Jacques himself was born as Jean Jacques GRASSART on 6 Sep 1717, in Quievy, France, the son of Andre GRASSART (1683-1741) & Sainte MOREAU (1678-1742).
Jean Jacques was the fifth of seven children to his parents, and as an adult worked as a Linen Weaver.
On 10 April 1742 he married Marie Rose Lengrand also of Quievy. They had the following children:
GRASSART Jacques Antoine (1743 Quiévy - 1748 Quiévy)
GRASSART Marie Reine (1744 Quiévy - 1746 Quiévy)
GRASSART Marie Paques (1749 Quiévy - 1753 Quiévy)
GRASSART Anne Reine (1751 Quiévy)
GRASSART Constance (1755 Quiévy - 1762 Quiévy)
Marie died in childbirth 1755, and he began a relationship with Mary Elizabeth (Isabeau) Cartigny of St Hiliare. They crossed the border to marry in the Huguenot Temple at Tournoi on 14 January 1759, and their existing child (likely their son Thomas) was legitimized on the marriage.
One more child was born to them in France, Marie Joseph GRASSART b 15 march 1760 Quievy, baptised there the next day.
Increasing pressure had been placed on the Protestant enclave of Quievy by the local Catholic authorities. As mentioned above, in 1750 Jean Jacques sister Marie Barbe GRASSASRT (B.1720) had already fled to London with her husband Jean Philipe Delporte, joining the Huguenot congregation of Threadneedle Street London, via public abjuration of Catholicism, on 30 September that year.
Jean Jacques himself, was certainly still in Quievy as late as early June 1762, his daughter Constance dying and being buried there age 7 on the third of that month.
His wife Elizabeth CARTIGNY/GRASSART was heavily pregnant at that time giving birth to the couples third child Ann Elizabeth on 16th of that month. Whether it was the particular circumstances surrounding Constance's death and Ann Elizabeth's birth that influenced their decision to flee is unknown, but within eleven days of his new daughter birth, the whole family (Jacques, his wife, and his four surviving children Ann Reine, Thomas, Marie Joseph, Ann Elizabeth), had fled to England, Lo, along with his nephew Louis Bantigny, Louis joining the Threadneedle Street Church on 27 June that year.
The baby Ann Elizabeth was baptised in London a week later, (Surname spelt on the record as GRANSAR) 4 July 1672, at The Artillery Huguenot Church, Spitalfields.
One further child Elizabeth (Surname spelt as GRANSART) was also baptised to them privately at the home of Monsieur Jacob Bourdillon, Minister of the same Artillery Huguenot Church, Spitalfields in November 1764, but sadly did not survive.
Clearly the family was in dire straits in England as in 1765 Jean Jacques was one of fifty eight petitioners to the Board of Trade informing them :
[that the subscribed twenty families of destitute French Protestants were in London, that relief had been sought from the French churches in the city, "which already swarmed with poor", but without avail; and that unless they be transported to some colony they "would starve for want in this land of plenty".]
He appeared on the petition as follows:
["Jean Jacques GRANSAR, sa femme & quatres Enfans Tisserand & Ouvrier de Terre - 6 persons"]
i.e "Jean Jacques GRANSAR, his wife and four infants, Weaver & Worker on the Land - 6 persons"
The petitioners collectively expressed a desire to go to South Carolina and to join a British Huguenot colony under the care of John Pierre Gibert and Mr. Boutiton, but were not succesful in this wish.
......................... (cont)
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..........
Remaining in London the following year Jean Jacques enrolled his daughter Marie Joseph GRASSART as a pupil at The Westminster French Protestant Charity School.
Sadly soon after Jean Jacques was himself widowed again and crossed over to the Huguenot Church in Tournoi to marry for a third time to Margeuritte Dumme, a Protestant of Templeux le Geurard, on 19 July 1772.
A week to the day later his son Thomas was also married, back in England, on 26 July 1772 at St Dunstan's Stepney, to Susanne Blariau, a fellow Huguenot refugee (in her case born in London 1753). The clerk on the marriage recorded his surname in this instance as GRANDSAW.
They had the following children together (In each case I have kept original register spelling to show how the name was rapidly transforming in England to the more familiar form):
GRANDSHAW Jane born. 10 Oct 1722 bap.25 Oct 1772 St Leonard's, Shoreditch
GRANSART John born.8 Nov 1775 bap. 3 Mar 1776 St Leonard's, Shoreditch
GRANDSOR Jane bap. 19 Jul 1782 St Matthew's, Bethnal Green
GRANSAW Elizabeth bap. 7 Feb 1788 St Matthew's, Bethnal Green
GRANSHAW Susan Alice born. 5 Jan 1790 bap. 19 Feb 1790 St Matthew's, Bethnal Green
GRANSAW Sarah born.21 Oct 1791 bap. 4 Nov 1791 St Matthew's, Bethnal Green
GRANDSAW Isaac born 23 Feb 1795 bap.11 Mar 1795 St Matthew's, Bethnal Green (* note married Mary BISSEY 17/9/1815 St George the Martyr, Southwark, see Gaie's earlier posts.)
The couple had at least one further child, a son Thomas GRANSHAW, who married Elizabeth Body 20 Feb 1803 at St Leonard's Shoreditch. To date I cannot find his baptism.
Thomas sr is down as a Weaver on the baptisms and clearly the family were still struggling Elizabeth, Susan & Sarah all recorded as being born within the Bethnal Green Workhouse. Susan Alice died aged 11 months in January 1791 at which time the family was recorded as living on Pheonix Street, Spitalfields.
Of Jean Jacques GRASSART's other children eldest daughter Ann Reine GRASSART, like her father, crossed over the channel to Tournoi's Huguenot Temple for her own marriage in April 1776 to Armand Joseph Proye of Malincourt.
Daughter Marie Joseph GRASSART was married on 3 December 1780 in England at St Matthew's Bethnal Green to Lambert Dupuy, her surname recorded on the record by the clerk as GRANSOR. Her cousin Louis Bantigny and father Jean Jacques acted as her witnesses, Jean Jacques signing his own name on the same document as as GRANSAW. She later applied without success to the French Hospital in old age giving her maiden name at that time as GRANDSER/GRANSER.
Jean Jacques youngest child, daughter Elizabeth Ann GRANSART married into the London Huguenot MANNEKEY family and also applied to French Hospital in old age, succesfully in her case, dying there in December of 1835.
As an aside this family did attemp to reclaim some of their land (forefeited on their fleeing) in 1775 as shown below:
On August 24 1775, Mr Ogier, royal notary and lawyer of London, composed power of attorney in due form to the advantage of one Pierre Philippe Bastien, presently of London, soon to depart for Cambrésis:
["For the sale of an acre of garden situated in Quiévy belonging to Abraham Delporte, only son of the late Jean Philippe Delporte, making his living as a linen weaver and Marie Barbe GRANSART, widow of aforementioned Jean Philippe Delporte, his mother, both residing in the parish of Christchurch, Spitalfields, County of Middlesex, the witnesses were Jacques Delporte and Louis Bantigny, inhabitant also in London"]
Marie Barbe GRANSART was Jean Jacques' sister of course, Jean Philipe Delport his brother in law, Abraham Delporte and Louis Bantigny, his nephews. Their lawyer was a member of the leading and most influential Huguenot family in East London's Silk Weaving industry, the Ogiers of Moncoutant, Poitou.
I think I have the burial of Jean Jacques wife Margeuritte in the non conformist burial ground at Bethnal Green 21 April 1822 recorded as 'Margaritt GRANSHAW'
To date though, not been able to find a burial for Jean Jacques.
Regards
Richard
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Hi Gaie and Richard,
I may be late to the party but as it has been going on for a few hundred years maybe its not too late!
Researching the Granshaws I still feel uncertain about the 1700's. You have both provided quite detailed information which is fascinating. Where did this all come from as I can't find anything of this calibre.
I'm off the Huguenot library next week but would like to find as many sources as I can for the information you have collated and I am happy to collaborate where I can be of help.
Regards
Mervyn Granshaw
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Hello Mervyn
Been quite a while since I looked into this family. Glad the info I found has been of help. Good luck with your search at the Huguenot Library, hope you can build upon the information already found.
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Hi Richard,
Please can you let me know your sources for all this information?
Apart from the Huguenot library I will also call in at the London Metropolitan Archives as all the other Bethnal Green Spitalfield's registers seem to be there.
I have also found a similar tree on a French site geneanet.org where a Stéphane Desmeuraux evidences the Grassarts.
The stumbling block is that no one I can see can link Thomas Grassart, husband of Susanne(a)(ah) Blariau(ieux) to the Grassart family. His wedding to Susannah has a source but I cannot find his birth, baptism or death or any links at all. You even said, 'likely their son Thomas' but provided no dates. Why do several people make the connection I wonder? According to the French genealogical sites, Grassart is a common name in the north so why and where is the connection and why with this Grassart family?
Stéphane does not list a Thomas as a son of Jean Jaques G and any of his three wives.
I have a small spreadsheet of this era highlighting the differences of opinion but cannot seem to attach it?
Mervyn
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Very regrettably I believe Richard's main assumption to be incorrect although much of the Jean Jacques story is true.
Jean Jacques 'missing' child was in fact Jacques Joseph. Sometime after his first wife, Marie Rose Lengrand, died 23/3/1755 a few days after childbirth of Constance Grassart 19/3/1755, he started a relationship with Élizabeth Cartigny. She, however, had had a son baptised before she and Jean Jacques married on 14/1/1759. This is why on the marriage record it says (in French) that their child was legitimised on marriage.
The reason Richard did not pick up on this is that the scribe recorded the event as Jacques Joseph 'fils de Lisabet Quateniye fille de libre condition natif de Saint Hilaire' i.e. Jacques Joseph was born and baptised 17/8/1758 a mere five months before his mother and father married. As we all know, scribes were not always that competent or consistent and always relied on what they heard and thus, Lisabet Quateniye can not be anyone other than Élizabeth Cartigny.
This leads then to the question, who was Thomas? I have now assembled a tree of over 900 Quiévy area Grassarts. Amongst them are 8 Thomas's. Only one fits the timeline. I am happy to share with anyone who is interested.
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As of our private correspondance last summer Mervyn, I would certainly agree with you that Jacques Joseph Quatenyie does seem a more likely prospect for the unnamed legitimised child of Jean Jaques Grassart and Mary Elizabeth Cartigny, and concede I was unaware of this child, with the baptism being recorded under a variable spelling of the mother's surname.
I would just point out though that my research into this family was as part of a wider study of Spitalfields Huguenots, looking into a great many families, and the assumption of Thomas's place within that family was not the main focus of my work, and from my own point of view was neither particularly important or significant, though of course appreciate its signifance to his descendants, and regret if it was not made clear enough, and I concede it wasn't, that his place in the family tree was an assumption on my part, based on the fact to date it has been impossible to positively identify a baptism for Thomas. As Jean Jaques was the grandson of a Thomas, and his eldest brother was also named Thomas, it seemed reasonable to posit that he could have chosen that name for one of his own sons. With the existance of an unnamed legitimised child, the London Thomas seemed a very likely prospect at the time. In addition to that was the coincidence of Jean Jacques Grassart marrying at the Huguenot Church in Tournoi to Margeuritte Dumme, a on 19 July 1772, exactly seven days before Thomas was also married, in England, on 26 July 1772 at St Dunstan's.
The only real info on Thomas's arrival in London comes from his great-great granddaughter, Elizabeth Granshaw, b.1874 daughter of Thomas George Granshaw & Francis Jane Lee, an inmate of La Providence, The French Charity Hospital from 1934 to 1938. Her petition for entry gave the following details of her French descent: '[on] My mother's side; I have been told by my parents my Father's Grandfather was brought to England when a boy about four years at the time of the French Revolution.'
As the legitimised son of Jean Jacques Grassart must have been born between his first wife's death in 1755 and his remarriage to Elizabeth Cartigny in 1759, he would have been aged 3-7 when the family fled to England in 1762, so that seemed to fit well too, though again as noted in our private correspondence, I did have misgivings as it would make Thomas seventeen at the oldest at the time of his marriage. This would be highly unusual if true, as the Huguenots didn't generally go in for young marriages, more often they were in their mid to late twenties when they wed.
In the course of our correspondance I suggested, alternatively, that he might be the Thomas Grassart baptised 21/7/1748 as son to Thomas Grassart [QUIEVY/BMS [1737-1749] 1 MI 309 R 002 130/144] and was perhaps bought to England as a very young child with Jean Jacques' sister, Marie Barbe GRASSART (B.1720) when she came to England in September 1750 with her husband Jean Philipe Delporte. Young children certainly were smuggled out by aunts and uncles as this is how my own most recent Huguenot ancestor came to England, around the same time, 1753.
The problem still remains though is if Jean Jacques and Elizabeth did have all four of their children in London, as the records state, why is there plentiful evidence of the other three in later records there, but none at all for Jacques Joseph Cartigny/Grassart? Did he die in infancy in London? If so where is the burial record? If, alternatively, he died in infancy in France, then Thomas could still in fact be the fourth child on record with them in London, regardles of if he was an actual son or nephew to Jean Jaques. Then there is the possibility at least Jacques Joseph and Thomas are one and the same person, and Thomas was used as his alias, which would explain the lack of any records for him in London, under his baptismal name.
Anyway I add this for clarification, particularly if my earlier posts lacked clarity and had somewhat muddied the waters for Thomas's descendants. I look foward to further discoveries regarding this family, which will hopefully paint a clearer picture than currently exists.
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Hi Richard
Thank you for your further thoughts which, as ever, are very much appreciated. Two strands now follow for me:
1/ In an effort to properly exclude Jean Jacques Grassart/Gransar from the line, I am now in the process of trying to locate the source of the reference in Arthur Henry Hirsch’s 1928 book The Huguenots of South Carolina as it mentions Jean Jacques Gransar and has the mysterious reference MS Col. Doc. S. C., XX. 261. I assumed it was Colonial Document South Carolina but I can’t find anything beyond Volume 41 1734-35. Do you know what it is and where it is to be found?
You suggested that a Petition to the Board of Trade was declined but according to Hirsch, “Help was given them and they united with the settlers already situated in Hillsboro Township.” That said, conversely and like you too, I see some Grassart/Gransar records in London after this.
Is the document where you see 4 children the Petition? I realise the Petition reads, ‘Jean Jacques Gransar sa femme et quatres Enfans” but according to my records Jean Jacques Grassart had 11 children by two of his 3 wives. By 1765 at least 5 had died, leaving 6 for whom I have no death records:
Anne Reine G 27/9/1751- Quiévy France (who married Armand Joseph Proye 1776) travelled to London
Jacques Joseph G 17/8/58- Quiévy France
Twin Marie Joseph G 15/3/1760- Quiévy France &
Twin Marie Thérèse G 15/3/1760- Quiévy France
Anne Élisabeth G (Gransar) 16/6/1762- London
Élisabeth G (Gransart) 24/10/1764- Bapt at the home of Jacob Bourdillon London
So, did two die before the 1765 petition, or is there a different Jean Jacques who went to South Carolina? Or what? I have been in touch with the Professor who provided the preface to the new edition of Hirsch’s book and to a student of his who has researched the later, scattered and smaller New Bordeaux Huguenots as well as a Boston based professor who wrote on the same subject. I am hoping that any responses they may send provide some South Carolina information which may help see if they went and who went.
So I am inclined to still believe that the Jean Jacques trail is a false one and it is more likely to be that Thomas is the correct ancestor. But I’d like to be able to understand why Jean Jacques, a sister and some of his children floated between Quiévy and London at the same time as a more distant cousin Thomas (great grandson of a brother of Jean Jacques grandfather!)
2/ Who are the Blariau’s (Blarieux/Blariaux) and where do they come from. I can see that a Susanne Blariau was one of 5 children of Jacques Jean Blarieux and Lousie Troufé:
Susanne 9/12/1753-19/2/1850)
Hélène Blarieux 19/1/1756-
Louise Blarieux 17/1/1760-
Élizabeth Blarieux 11/8/1762-
Isaac Blarieux 12/4/1765-)
There is a suggestion that Jacques Jean (surely its Jean Jacques anyway?) was born in 1740 in Cappel, Moselle in France. But that would make him 13 when he had his first daughter Susanne. Also I have checked all the records in Cappel and can find no Blariau/eux records at all from 1720 onwards. I am also looking at Binche in Hainaut Provence in Belgium as that has also been mentioned as the Blariau home area but again nothing found yet.
So who are they and who are the Troufés?
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Hi Richard,
I've just unearthered another petition where Jean Jacques Gransart sa femme and 6 enfans try to go to Nova Scotia:
115 names are listed on a petition referred to in the Order of Council on 28 May 1762 aiming to go to Nova Scotia. In amongst these are Jean Jacques Gransar sa femme six enfants. They have no idea if any went to anywhere in US. Reference Vol 17 of Colonial Office Papers. (Proceedings of the Huguenot Society of London, Vol. V: pgs180-1)
But in a list dated 22 November 1763 (18 months later) of 173 refugees about to depart Plymouth under Jean Louis Gibet, there are none of the above people. Reference Vol 29 pp212-214 of Colonial Office Papers.
In Hirsch’s book he mentions 371 people settling in Hillsboro in 1764. Reference Vol 29 p375 f of Colonial Office Papers.
He goes on to mention the first group embarking at Plymouth 2 January 1764 after 2 years of negotiations with their agent John Lewis Gibet and arriving Charlestown 12 April 1764. Reference Vol 29 p375 of Colonial Office Papers.
1 person died. Reference Council Journal 1763-4 144-47
Details of provisions, land and rent are preserved. Reference Council Journal 1763-4 p328 and Vol 29 p160, 378 & 381 of Colonial Office Papers.
Then in 1765 a petition was sent signed by 58 French protestants in London wanting to join Gibet and Boutiton’s colony in Hillsboro. This is the ‘Help was given them and they united …’ group. By now Jean Jacques Grassart is Gransar and has wife but only 4 children. However, Jean Jacques daughter Constance died 3 June 1762 and his daughter Anne Élizabeth on 16 June 1762. So the number of his children would have fallen by two between 28 May 1762 and 1765. I note that only Jean Jacques and his family and Jacques Le Gros and his family appear on both the 28 May 1762 list for Nova Scotia and the 1765 petition for South Carolina. To compound matters, Jean Jacques second wife Marie Rose Lengrand had died 23 Mar 1755 in child birth of Constance. He hadn’t remarried in 1762. In fact he only re-married his third wife Marguerite Dumé on 19 July 1772 in the Protestant of Templeux le Geurard in Tournai France. Maybe he was with Marguerite in 1762 and referred to Marguerite as his wife? But maybe he didn’t go to South Carolina after all?
I will go to TNA at Kew and dig around but remain convinced he is not the connection to UK Granshaws.