RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: parry71 on Monday 20 October 08 22:09 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I am trying to establish whether the Rev. Robert Lloyd Roberts, rector of Llangwyfan in 1830 - 1837, was in the adjoining parish of Llanrheadr yng Nghinmeirch as a Curate in the years around 1829.
The reason I ask this is that on the 1851 census his son another Robert was born in Llanrheadr in 1829.
Thankyou for reading this
-
I can`t give the answer you want, but have found this .
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Tuesday, November 3, 1835
On the 28th ult at the residence of her son the Rev R A R Roberts , Llangwyfan Rectory , Mrs Roberts of Brynmorwydd in the 81st year of her age.
She was a sister to the Rev R Pritchard,of Dinam ,Anglesey.
From another article I found it seems A stood for Anwyl
OXFORD, Saturday, May 28
Jackson's Oxford Journal (Oxford, England), Saturday, May 28, 1825
Oxford. On the last day the 21 instant the following degrees were conferred.
Bachelors in Divinity.
Rev Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts, Jesus.
Hope you find this of interest. :)
-
Hello there,
The Record Office for Llanrhaeadr Yng Nghinmeirch, at Ruthin, should be able to assist you with this query. I suggest a telephone call to see what they can provide.
Otherwise, the church of St Dyfnog has a website http://www.stdyfnog.org.uk/
I am sure that contact to the present incumbent would give you some help and an answer. The people in this place are extremely helpful and I speak from having had very many visits to this beautiful place.
Jp.
-
Bryn Morfydd (as the Ordnance Survey currently spells it) lies just south of the village and church of Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch. It is now a small hotel, with a golf course attached.
In Archdeacon D R Thomas's History of the Diocese of St Asaph (HDSA), 2nd (3 vol.) edition, vol. 2, p.108 (within the list of rectors for the parish of Llangynhafal), appears the following:
1857. ROBERTS, Robert Lloyd Anwyl, M.A., Jesus College, Oxford; Rector of Llangwyfan, 1830-57; only son of Rev. Robert Roberts, M.A., Vicar of Llanrhaiadr, 1786-1817.
His successor as Rector of Llangynhafal is shown as having arrived in 1876. Earlier in the section about the same church, on p.106, appears this:
The memorials in the church include the brass lectern to Rector R. Ll. Anwyl Roberts, 1831-76, and Ellen his wife
Also in HDSA vol 2, in the list of vicars for the parish of Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch, p.51, is to be found this:
1786. ROBERTS, Robert, A.M., married Margaret, sister of Owen Holland, Esq,. of Conway, and was the father of Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts, Rector of Llangynhafal. -- Mural tablet.
The next incumbent's date of arrival is shown as 1817.
Clergymen quite often employed their newly ordained sons as curates, while the latter were seeking appointment to their first independent benefices; but in this case the father seems to have died too soon to assist his son in that way. However, the new incumbent only stayed for a year or so before taking over a parish in England; and Peter Williams D.D., the man who came in after that, seems not to have resigned his existing living at Llanbedrog when he was appointed to Llanrhaeadr; Archdeacon Thomas says Williams was very busy as a prolific author and that his death, when it came in 1837, occurred at Llanbedrog. That makes it quite likely that he needed a curate to look after the parishioners of Llanrhaeadr, and who better to select than the son of the man who had (effectively) been his predecessor -- someone who had been born and brought up there.
So the theory that Robert junior served as curate before moving on to Llangwyfan in 1830 seems perfectly reasonable, especially as (via Bryn Morfydd) the Roberts family evidently maintained a continuing connection with Llanrhaeadr.
One way to be more certain about the matter would be to check who was certifying the annual Bishop's Transcripts of the parish register, a record series now kept with the diocesan archives at the National Library of Wales.
Rol
CORRECTION (added Friday 5 June):
My post above is misleading about what HDSA shows as the succession of incumbents -- I ought to have turned over another page! Peter Williams did not hold Llanrhaeadr in plurality with Llanbedrog all the way through until his death in 1837 as I had thought: in fact he resigned Llanrhaeadr only two years after his installation there, having persuaded the bishop to appoint his son Edward Williams to the parish as his successor; and the son remained there until 1843. So the odds that Robert Roberts served an apprenticeship as a curate at Llanrhaeadr before moving to Llangwyfan in 1830 seem to to be correspondingly worse. As already mentioned, someone with ready access to the NLW would need to check the certification of the BTs if we are to have some clearer evidence about the possible presence of curates.
-
Well, it all came eventually, after 6 months from the firstpost , it just proves that the answers are worth waiting for :)
-
Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch baptisms.
Aug 26 1828. Robert Lloyd s/o ???? Anwyl & Ellen Roberts. Bryn ????ydd. Fathers Occ, Clerk.
Dec 22 1829. Richard Anwyl. s/o """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Paul.
-
A minor puzzle in this story is the apparent conlict between the 1835 death notice in the North Wales Chronicle
November 3, 1835 On the 28th ult at the residence of her son the Rev R A R Roberts , Llangwyfan Rectory , Mrs Roberts of Brynmorwydd in the 81st year of her age. She was a sister to the Rev R Pritchard, of Dinam ,Anglesey.
and the Llanrhaeadr mural tablet as cited in HDSA ii 51, i.e.
1786. ROBERTS, Robert, A.M., married Margaret, sister of Owen Holland, Esq,. of Conway, and was the father of Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts, Rector of Llangynhafal. -- Mural tablet.
A marriage bond recorded in the NLW's ISYS database supports the North Wales Chronicle's version:
ROBERTS, Robert, bach., clerk, Llanrhaeadr yng Nghinmeirch, DEN. 1796, Jul 11. At Llangaffo, AGY. Margaret Prichard. A,B. 29/71.
If the bridegroom of 1796 was a bachelor, and the bride lived on until 1835 (apparently dying a widow), it seems quite hard to resolve the contradiction by postulating a second marriage.
On the face of things either the memorial itself, or Thomas's transcription of it, must be mistaken.
Can anyone explain further?
Rol
-
Hello there,
I wouldn't care to postulate an answer to this, other than to say that it appears one of these reports is incorrect. Question is, which one?
It may take some research to answer this. In the website for Archives Network Wales, I found an entry for the Anwyl Papers held in the Caernarfon Record Office. This reads,"Papers relating to the Anwyl family of Caernarfonshire, 1632 (mid 20th century) mainly of Reverend Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts, including Deeds 1632-1859, relating to land in the parishes of Penmachno, Penmorfa, Llanfihangel-y-Pennant, and Trefiw, Caernarfonshire, Trawsfynydd and Maentwrog, Merionethshire...".
http://www.archivesnetworkwales.info/cgi-bin/anw/name_search?id=2672&acc_type=2
I do think the answer can be obtained but doubt this can be achieved online. A few days in the Record Office, or National Library of Wales, may be necessary.
I stand to be corrected!
Jo
-
May I thank all the contributors who have writtten on the above. It is fascinating reading and makes me more convinced that the Roberts family connection is the reason how my Gt Gdmother came to be working at the Llangwfan Rectory in 1841. She was born in Llanreadr yng Ngh. abt 1823 and was obviously known and could be trusted as a servant. Strangely I cannot find a record of her baptism, which is strange as she went to work for a clergyman, and I would have thought it would have been a requisite for employment in his household.
-
Hello, can you post the details you have from the 1841 census please.
Paul.
-
This must be them Paul. I`m guessing it`s Maria we`re looking at.
HO107; Piece 1404; HO107; Piece 1404;
Rectory House.
R LL A Roberts 40 Ind Y
Ellen Roberts 40 N
John Augustus 8 Y
Wm Vincent 5 Y
Margaret Evanes 25 FS Y
Maria Parry 18 FS Y
Robert Davies 14 MS
-
First, my apologies to Parry71 for focusing still on the man in the thread-title rather than on Maria Parry; but once the hare is running it is hard to call off the hounds! And I ought to do my best to answer the sub-question raised in Reply 6 above, having posed it myself.
Jo, I am very grateful to have that ANW reference you posted. I do not think that I had ever heard about those particular Anwyl papers, and they look very interesting. Although they only consist of 27 items, there must be a good chance that they reveal how the Revd R L A Roberts of Llangwyfan and Llangynhafal came to have Anwyl as a middle name.
I phoned Caernarfon record office earlier today and they say that the documents must have come in before 1970 (that being the date when the RO prepared the schedule) and were deposited by Moses Griffith of [Trefaes,] Menai Bridge, Anglesey. Unfortunately they could not give me a fuller provenance showing how the collection came into Mr Griffith's own possession (e.g. by purchase, or by family descent); and apparently the schedule does not have the usual sort of analytical introduction. Anyway, although I only seem to find time to visit Caernarfon every two or three years, the "Anwyl Family Papers" (ref. XM/1390) will definitely be on my "to do" list next time!
If any other reader of this thread has already had the chance to dip into this collection, it would be fascinating to see the key headlines of what it reveals posted on RootsChat.
For the record, FreeBMD shows a death in Q1 1876 in Ruthin RD in the name Robert Lloyd A Roberts, at the age of 78 years (ref 11b 281). North Wales BMD narrows this to the sub-district of Llandyrnog -- which included the parish of Llangynhafal.
I have been doing some exploration of old notes and I think that the puzzle of the two wives raised in my Reply 6 above derives from the fact that there were three related clergymen who served as vicar (or ?curate) of Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch and bore the name Robert Roberts: uncle then nephew then great nephew (the latter being our RLAR). So D R Thomas (or his transcriber) can be pardoned for some confusion, as can we. The Uncle's PCC will of 1776 and Griffith's Pedigrees pp.46 (Prichard) and 341 (Holland) serve to clarify matters. According to Alumni Oxonienses, the Nephew matriculated from Jesus College in 1766 aged 18 and was the son of David Roberts of Trawsfynydd gent.
Item 14 in the NLW Maurice Johnson Genealogical Papers also contains some material about these people (unpaginated -- ?about two thirds of the way through). Johnson says that the above David and his brother Robert (the Uncle) were sons of Robert Roberts (yet another!) of Goppa in the parish of Trawsfynydd (d.1756), by Catherine Lloyd his wife (d.1763).
The 1776 PCC will of the Uncle helps support some of this. It is fairly clear that he died childless. He refers to his 1760 marriage settlement with his wife Margaret née Holland, to whom he leaves a life interest in the settlement fund, with the capital going afterwards to his five nieces, four of whom are unmarried and resident at Coppa in Trawsfynydd. The testator's land (not specified) at Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch is settled on his nephew Robert (at that time the clergyman at Pentrefoelas) for life and then entailed on Robert's issue, with remainder in default on trust for sale for the benefit of the five nieces in equal shares.
It would still be good to know the exact wording of that "mural tablet" in Llanrhaeadr church; and I wonder if anyone is a Goppa expert . . .
Rol
ADDED 2 June 2009 (3:46 PM):
The Nephew's will, like the Uncle's, was proved at the PCC (in 1818), and so is available for download via TNA's DocumentsOnline service; but I have not read it myself.
-
Yesterday I was able to see a photocopy reproducing a typescript version of notes on Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch MIs made a century or so ago by W M Myddelton (the man who edited the published Chirk Castle Accounts). The original is at the library of the Society of Genealogists in London.
I do not have total confidence in the accuracy of this typescript, made by E W Topham Steele, because (a) I know Myddelton's hand can be difficult to read and (b) some extracts do look suspect. However, parts of the notes seem relevant for present purposes and worth reporting here.
Evidence suggesting that Edward Williams, vicar from 1822 to "1843" (see addition to Reply 3 in this thread), was resident and ministering in person to his parishioners is the fact that the MIs show that on his premature death in 1842 aged only 46, he was buried there rather than anywhere else -- as were other members of his family later in the century (his widow is said to have gone off to South Africa to become a missionary). Furthermore, the MI notes include a memorial dated 1836 to "Jane Hughes . . . for 15 years the faithful & respected Housekeeper of Rev Mr Edw Williams, Vicar of this par. Died at the Vicarage."
The extracts also record MIs to Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts (the man I labelled the Great Nephew in Reply 11) and his immediate family, grouped together in such a way as to suggest that they may all have been on a single monument:
1. Rev Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts, late of Bryn Morwydd & Rect of Llanganhafal, ob 6 Mch 1876, aet 77
2. Ellen Roberts 2nd d of Rev R Prichard of Dinam Anglesey & relict of above Rev R Ll A, ob 16 Jun 1882, aet 82
3. John Augustus Roberts 3rd s of above, ob 28 Jan 1851, aet 18
4. Wm Vincent Roberts 4th s of same, ob 17 Apl 1876, aet 40
5. Richd Anwyl Roberts 2nd s of above, ob 21 Feb 1885, aet 55
6. Anne Adelaide Roberts only surv d of above, ob 25 Jun 1906, [aet] 63
For the sake of completeness I am also adding here some additional references to the Roberts family. The CFHS transcript of Llanrhaeadr PR records the baptism of the Great Nephew on 9 April 1798 (with the forenames Lloyd and Anwyl apparently reversed), son of the Revd Robert Roberts, vicar of this parish, and Margaret his wife. Back on 13 December 1775 the same source records the burial of the Uncle: Robert Roberts, late vicar OTP.
Finally, Foster's Alumni Oxonienses, cited about the Nephew in Reply 11, also has entries for the Great Nephew and the Uncle:
ROBERTS, Robert Lloyd Anwyl, s. Robert, of Llanrhaiadr, co. Denbigh, cler. JESUS COLL, matric. 28 May, 1816, aged 18; B.A. 1820, M.A. 1825.
and
ROBERTS, Robert, son of Robert, of Trawsfynydd, pleb. JESUS COLL, matric. 23 March, 1737-8, aged 18; B.A. 1741, M.A. 1744.
Rol
-
As an impressed reader of this thread, I think a round of virtual applause is called for!
-
May I echo the comment from ainslie, I never thought when I originated my enquiry about my Gr gdmother Maria Parry as to how she was working in the Rectory at Llangwfan in 1841. I had a gut feeling that there must have been a connection with Llanrhiadr yng Ngh and reading the all the information she must have found a good home at the Rectory in Llangwfan. It is always good to fill the background to an ancesters life especially in their early days.
Maria had moved away by 1851, to where I do not know but by 1857 she had married my Gt Gdfather. at the time of her marriage she was in service at the Vaughans house at Trawscoed (Crosswood) at Llanafan.
Once again I join in the round of virual appalause. Diolch l am fawr.
-
Nice to come back and find those two kind posts about the people who have been contributing info to this thread -- and to the extent that they were aimed at me in particular, many thanks -- though credit is certainly due to others, especially to Wilcoxon for setting the ball rolling with those revealing newspaper items and to Jo for discovering the Roberts/Anwyl papers at Caernarfon RO.
I have long been curious about the origins of the Robertses of Goppa and the identity of the Trawsfynydd families into which they married, so Parry71's enquiry seemed as good an excuse as any to establish an online "data cache" about them and thereby draw the gaze of the search engines. That should help future researchers -- plus, with luck, attract contributions from others out there who may have spotted additional archival references to them.
As to Maria Parry herself, as I understand it the key point that Parry71 wanted to establish was that the Rector of Llangwyfan (at whose house Maria was working in 1841) had some earlier connection with the parish of her birth, i.e. Llanrhaeadr-yng-Nghinmeirch. The exact nature of that connection (e.g. whether R L A Roberts had previously served there as a curate) was really only a secondary matter. The Bryn Morfydd references found by Wilcoxon and Jo serve to establish the necessary association perfectly well, so the reduced likelihood that RLAR served there as curate in the late 1820s does not really matter much: thanks to the Robertses' longstanding clerical (and continuing property) links with Llanrhaeadr, they are pretty likely to have come across Maria and her family, with the result -- as Parry71 says -- that she was "known and could be trusted as a servant".
Anyway, Maria certainly moved on to a much grander household when she secured that place with the Vaughans at Trawscoed -- looks as though the Rector of Llangwyfan wrote her a glowing reference!
Rol
-
You really have done well , and I`m glad that little `snippet` I found got the ball rolling.
You mention that you would like to help others, via search engines, there`s a site http://www.scribd.com/
You can upload any thing on to this,.
I have sent a PM.
-
Hello again,
I have found a Wikipaedia entry for the Anwyl family, which not strictly relevant to the original post here, seem to have some interest to people who have contributed. They are described as the Anwyl of Tywyn family. Plenty of genealogy here!
The link is http://en.wikipedia/org/wiki/Anwyl_of_Tywyn_Family
I have been looking at the website for St Dyfnog at Llanrhaeadr and there is a contact E-Mail address for the vicar there. I would be happy to make contact to verify monumental inscriptions. I have been to this wonderful church many times and live too far away to go myself at present. I have met the present incumbent and am sure he would assist with this.
Jo
-
Hello Jo and Wilcoxon,
Belated thanks for those two posts and for the accompanying URLs.
That web-based self-publishing site looks interesting. I suppose the benefit of posting (relatively short) chunks of material on RootsChat, rather than there, is that R/C has reached critical mass as a magnet for co-operative local and family history research -- and so is perhaps more likely to draw Google visits from the right "target market". But I can see that Scribd has a lot of merit if one wants to publish longer pieces on the web.
Wikipedia is full of surprises: I had no idea that article had just been put up about the Anwyls. James Frankcom, the chap who wrote the piece, seems to be a big heraldry enthusiast who has written a fair bit of Wikipedia material about early and medieval Wales. Personally I could do without the stuff there about Mr Evan Anwyl of Ty Mawr, Tywyn, b.1943, "educated at Tywyn Grammar School and University of Wales Aberystwyth (BSc 1967, DipEd 1968)", being current Head of the House of Aberffraw and de jure Prince of Gwynedd as the senior direct male line descendant of Owain Gwynedd
-- which does come over as even more Pooteresque than Ruritanian -- especially as many Welsh princely successions were settled by mutilation and fratricide rather than by the finer points of the Laws of Hywel Dda!
Frankcom appears to have sourced his article chiefly to Lewys Dwnn, Yorke's Royal Tribes and the efforts of Burke. These are all doubtless very worthy authorities; but the best researched work that I have ever come across on the Anwyls is that of Philip H Lawson of Chester, as published and extended by Margery M Anwyl (an Anwyl by marriage) from the USA, in two typescript legal-size volumes under the title "Anwyl Families". (There is a set at the NLW, though despite it having an ISBN the library decided to accession it as if it were a copy of an MS, in the "NLW Ex" series.) A proportion of Lawson's original research papers also came to the NLW. For full info see this link to the catalogue (http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irl595/7/doc).
The source citations in the footnotes are outstandingly detailed and impressive. I wish I had a copy. It would be a good companion for that visit to Caernarfon RO!
On the Llanhaeadr MIs, Jo, if you can verify them in the way you suggest, that would be very useful.
Rol
-
Hello Rol,
The Wikipaedia piece on the Anwyl family makes for interesting reading. I gather for you personally!
I have sent an E-Mail to Reverend Williams, the present incumbent of St Dyfnog. This has asked about the Monumental Inscription(s). Also, any other information he may have.
I should prefer to visit and see for myself! It could be a good reason to go back there. The church is one of the unknown wonders of Wales. The waters at St Dyfnog's Well are to be recommended too.
Shall advise you of the outcome.
Jo.
-
Just an update on my last post.
I sent an E-Mail to the Reverend Williams who is the present incumbent in St Dyfnog. I have not heard from him but did receive a delivery warning message that the message had been delayed. Problems with the server at that end.
I shall give it a while longer and try again.
The alternative would be for me to visit myself, a good excuse!
Jo
-
Re Peter Williams ( see Reply 3 )
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Tuesday, February 28, 1837
On the 21st inst in the 81 st year of his age, at the Rectory Llanbedrog, the Rev Peter Williams DD deservedly revered and honoured for the faithful and efficient discharge of the most important responsiblities of a life devoted to the sevice of God and the welfare of man.
The deceased was formerly headmaster of Bangor Grammar School and Chaplian to Dr Majendic ? the late Bishop of this diocese, He was also a County Magistrate.
-
Going back to the Anwyl Roberts`s ,
I did a search on the 19th century newspapers site, just for Anwyl Roberts, and there are many `hits`.
I don`t which are linked, but these are a few I found.
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, July 24, 1858
Llandudno Directory St George`s Church Llandudno
Rev W Anwyl Roberts BA Curate
LLANDUDNO
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, January 15, 1859;
Rev Wm Anwyl Roberts , respected curate of the parish of Llandudno was presented a gold watch by the lady members , the proceedings took place on New Years day. An address was read with words to the effect that it was two years since he commenced administrations to the parish.
DENBIGH
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, October 22, 1864
St Pauls, Bryncoedifor.
Thanksgiving services were given , and the the Rev W Anwyl Roberts, curate of Dolgelley preached.
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, August 10, 1867;
On the 31st ult aged 73 Margaret , relict of the late Rev W A Anwyl Roberts, B A Carreg- Lleon Nr Llanwrst, incumbent of Capel Garmon and Penmachno.
============================================
HARVEST THANKSGIVING SERVICES
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Saturday, October 25, 1873
Llanfairmathafarneithaf Anglesey.
Rev Anwyl Roberts MA rector of the parish read the prayers.
There are many more reports regarding Rev Anwyl Roberts, the above vicar of Anglesey from 1874 to 1875 regarding his drunkeness :o and misconduct.
It seems that frequently there was no one at services apart from the vicar and his clerk.
The principal landowner in the parish , Mrs Lewis died and according to custom her funeral service was expected to held the following Sunday. A very large congregation assembled, but - no vicar !!!.
Charges were brought against him and reports were made in national papers headed the Anglesey Clerical Scandal.
To be fair there here was another clergyman charged at the same time with falsly registering the death of his daughters illegitimate child.
Nothing at all to do with our subject, but just a bit of scandal ;D ;D ;D
-
Some great entertainment there, Wilcoxon -- that Gale newspaper site so often seems to bring up golden nuggets!
As I think you realised, these Anwyl Robertses came from another family -- different Robertses, at least. In case it could prove helpful, albeit not strictly on topic, here is some info and reference material to help distinguish them from the Goppa clan.
The William Anwyl Roberts under attack for drinking was alone (and not kept company by a bottle I hope) at Carreg Lleon on census night in 1881; he still described himself as Rector of Llanddyfnan [Anglesey], though the FamilySearch transcription (perhaps the enumerator?) has that parish's name slightly misspelt. He was born 1826 (per PR), was married in 1860 and died 1888 (per Griffith, as cited below, 375). He was a son of the man of the same names who was the clergyman at Capel Garmon and Penmachno -- who in turn was a son of the William Roberts M.D. who married the heiress of the last Anwyl of Plas yn Rhos, Capel Garmon. Some relevant PR extracts appear on the Melin-y-coed website (http://www.melin-y-coed.co.uk/page50.htm), about three quarters of the way down the (very long) page. I believe Carreg Lleon formed part of the Plas yn Rhos estate.
Dr. William Roberts came from a prominent medical family in Eifionydd, long the tenants (and briefly the owners after William married money) of Isallt Fawr, on the Brynkir estate in Llanfihangel y Pennant, S-E Caernarfonshire. His branch of the Isallt family mostly adopted Anwyl Roberts as a double surname -- which was not a style that the Vale of Clwyd people we have been discussing seem to have used with any consistency.
Details of the Anwyls of Plas yn Rhos and of their Anwyl Roberts descendants are to be found near the beginning of vol II of Anwyl Families* (for which see Reply 18 above). Page 359 in Griffith's Pedigrees covers Isallt in some detail, but with quite a few errors (some corrected on pp.52-53 of Colin Gresham's excellent book on land tenure in Eifionydd); page 375 of Griffith goes on to focus more specifically on the Anwyl Roberts branch. The Isallt family is also covered extensively by T. Ceiri Griffith, in tables 6, 7 and 8 of his Achau rhai o deuluoedd hen Siroedd Caernarfon, Meirionnydd a Threfaldwyn (2003, ISBN 0 9546367 0 8, privately published and distributed).
Rol
* To be accurate, on pp.89-93 -- ADDED 21 June 2009.
(The Roberts of Isallt and Anwyl Roberts information appears on p.93 and is chiefly sourced to Hanes Teulu Isallt by R I Jones ("Alltud Eifion"), published 1884, which was probably also one of J E Griffith's principal sources for this family in his Pedigrees.)
-
WHERE DID THE GREAT NEPHEW SERVE AS CURATE?
Here is another little jigsaw piece about Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts (the Great Nephew). It provides direct evidence about where he did, in fact, serve his clerical apprenticeship -- or at least some of it.
The source is a reference within the Clergy of the Church of England database (website under long term construction), taken from NLW B/SB/6, a "subscription book" (recording new priests' subscription to the Thirty-Nine Articles) for the Diocese of Bangor. It shows that the Great Nephew was appointed a stipendiary curate at Gyffylliog in 1821 -- i.e. the year after he took his BA degree. (It is good fortune to find him via the CCEd, because work on the North Wales dioceses seems to be only in its early stages.)
I am not familiar enough with such records to know whether the stated place of subscription is necessarily proof that the curacy related to that same parish -- though my guess would be that he did serve at Gyffylliog. The listing for that parish shows another curate subscribing there in 1824, which does prompt some doubt; however, a visitation book (clergy call book or "liber cleri") for the Deanery of Dyffryn Clwyd in 1826, listing all the clerical office holders there at that date, seems to confirm that the Great Nephew was then still in place at Gyffylliog as curate: NLW B/VSR/5.
Another curate subscribed in 1830, presumably reflecting the Great Nephew's departure to Llangwyfan.
Here's the link: http://ccedb.cch.kcl.ac.uk/jsp/locations/index.jsp?locUnitKey=26303 . (Scroll down to 1821, then to 1826.)
Rol
-
Hello to all,
I have received the details of the monumental inscritions from the present incumbent at St Dyfnog, Llanrhaeadr Yng Nghinmeirch.
Information is as follows:
Wall plaque on south wall. Written as inscribed on the plaque.
Rev. Robert Roberts Died 1775
Rev. Robert Roberts
Margaret Roberts Died 1835.
Margaret Amelia. Died 1838.
Underneath
is interred the Body
of the Revd Robert Roberts A.M.
late vicar of this parish
who died Dec. 8th 1775. Aged 56.
Also interred are the Remains
of the Reverend Robert Roberts,
of BRYN MORWYDD. A.M.
Nephew to the above who was likewise Vicar of this Parish
31 years. Aged 70
Together with those of his widow
MARGARET ROBERTS
Second daughter of the late
John Prichard Esqre of Dinam Hall
in the County of Anglesey
who died October 26th 1835
Aged 80
Also Margaret Amelia, their
Granddaughter, who died July
the 8th 1838, aged 13 days
Note states, "(Ref D.R.Thomas "1754 ROBERTS, Robert, AM
1776 Roberts, John A.M. Archdeacon of Merioneth 1785
1786 ROBERTS, Robert A.M. married Margaret, sister of Owen
Holland, Esq, of Conwy, and was father of Robert Lloyd Anwyl
Roberts, Rector of Llangynhafal - Mural Tablet).
Further post on the floor slab to follow.
Jo
-
Hello again,
The details on floor slab are as follows:
Rev. Robert Roberts A.M. Died 1817.
Margaret Roberts Died 1835.
Rev Robert Lloyd Anwyl Roberts. Died 1878.
SACRED
TO THE MEMORY OF
The Rev. Roberts Roberts A.M.
of Brynmorfydd
VICAR OF THIS PARISH
DIED
JULY 26th 1817
AGED 70 YEARS
BELOV'D RESPECTED LAMENTED
ALSO
TO THAT OF HIS RELICT
MARGARET ROBERTS
OBIT 20 OCTOBER 1835
AGED 80
AND OF THEIR ONLY SON
The Reverend ROBERT LLOYD ANWYL ROBERTS
OBIT 8th MARCH 1878
AGED 77
Written in the style of the transcription.
The floor slabs.
"Except for the Dolben tombs under the Altar and one under the Tower floor, the floor slabs were assembled under the Jesse Window at the east end of the north nave during the 1989 restoration".
Roots Chatters should thank the Reverend Williams for this information.
Jo
-
It is excellent to have the full text of those MIs up, Jo. I appreciate your pursuing the matter with the parish; and as you say, an especially big thank-you is due to the vicar there, Michael Williams, for having helped us all by providing the transcriptions. (I hope he now has the link for this thread, so that he can inspect -- or even expand/correct -- our little hoard of data about some of his illustrious predecessors!)
These thoughts occur to me in the first instance, as they probably have to other followers of this thread:
1. It is interesting that the Nephew (d.1817) and his widow are commemorated both on the wall plaque and on the floor slab. It is notable that the plaque, as transcribed, records his age at death but fails to specify when he died. Normally, If one or other of those pieces of information is to be omitted, the date of death is given priority for preservation and the age is what suffers "deselection". It may be that the uncle's MI on the plaque was not written until many years after his death and was carved contemporaneously with the Nephew's own part. Closer inspection of the lettering style and degree of aging would perhaps reveal whether the carving was done at separate times and whether one or both parts of the plaque antedated the floor slab. (The slab, of course, does supply the Nephew's missing date of death.)
2. The plaque confirms what we know from the CFHS's version of the PR, i.e. that both the Uncle and the Nephew were buried and not just commemorated at Llanrhaeadr. The slab, on the other hand, records dates of death but is silent about places of interment; so someone would need to inspect the relevant PR to confirm the location of the Great Nephew's last resting place.
3. The transcription of the floor slab records the Great Nephew's year of death as 1878. But we know that the correct year was 1876: see
For the record, FreeBMD shows a death in Q1 1876 in Ruthin RD in the name Robert Lloyd A Roberts, at the age of 78 years (ref 11b 281). North Wales BMD narrows this to the sub-district of Llandyrnog -- which included the parish of Llangynhafal.
and also
His successor as Rector of Llangynhafal is shown as having arrived in 1876. Earlier in the section about the same church, on p.106, appears this:
The memorials in the church include the brass lectern to Rector R. Ll. Anwyl Roberts, 1831-76, and Ellen his wife
The 6s and 8s in this inscription are evidently hard to distinguish: W M Myddelton's transcript, as typed up by E W Topham Steele (see Reply 12 above), had the Great Nephew's MI as "ob 6 Mch 1876".
4. It is useful to have the Uncle's and the Nephew's respective ages at death confirmed by their MIs. The Uncle's MI matches his university matriculation record in suggesting 1719 as his year of birth; and the same sources point to 1747 for the birth of the Nephew.
5. Michael Williams's note at the end of Reply 25 reminds us of what Thomas's HDSA has to say on these people in its Llanrhaeadr section. The MI transcripts have now made it quite clear that the Uncle's wife Margaret Holland of Conway was not commemorated on either the mural tablet or the floor slab -- which only mention the Nephew's wife Margaret Prichard of Dinam. As previously discussed (see Reply 11 above), one has to conclude that Thomas -- or a local transcriber who supplied him with information -- derived Margaret Holland's name from some other source, and then mistakenly attributed it both to the mural tablet and to the wrong Robert Roberts.
6. As indicated by numbered para 2 of my extract from the Topham Steele typescript and by p.46 of Griffith's Pedigrees (both cited in my Reply 12), the Great Nephew went on to multiply the scope for confusion among Roberts wives by following his father's example and marrying a Prichard -- his first cousin Ellen, second daughter of his uncle the Revd Richard Prichard of Dinam. Perhaps fortunately, she is not included on either the mural tablet or the floor slab. But the Topham Steele typescript indicates that she did have an MI at Llanrhaeadr, at least when Myddelton visited a century or so ago. If the typescript is to be believed, perhaps there are additional MIs to the Great Nephew and his family to be found on one or more gravestones in the churchyard.
7. I know of no evidence to suggest that the John Roberts who became vicar of Llanrhaeadr in 1776 and Archdeacon of Merioneth in 1785 (as cited from HDSA by Michael Williams) was one of the same Roberts family (i.e. of Goppa); but it would be interesting to hear if any reader of this thread knows differently.
Rol
-
Wikipedia is full of surprises: I had no idea that article had just been put up about the Anwyls. James Frankcom, the chap who wrote the piece, seems to be a big heraldry enthusiast who has written a fair bit of Wikipedia material about early and medieval Wales. Personally I could do without the stuff there about Mr Evan Anwyl of Ty Mawr, Tywyn, b.1943, "educated at Tywyn Grammar School and University of Wales Aberystwyth (BSc 1967, DipEd 1968)", being current Head of the House of Aberffraw and de jure Prince of Gwynedd as the senior direct male line descendant of Owain Gwynedd
-- which does come over as even more Pooteresque than Ruritanian -- especially as many Welsh princely successions were settled by mutilation and fratricide rather than by the finer points of the Laws of Hywel Dda!
Frankcom appears to have sourced his article chiefly to Lewys Dwnn, Yorke's Royal Tribes and the efforts of Burke. These are all doubtless very worthy authorities; but the best researched work that I have ever come across on the Anwyls is that of Philip H Lawson of Chester, as published and extended by Margery M Anwyl (an Anwyl by marriage) from the USA, in two typescript legal-size volumes under the title "Anwyl Families". (There is a set at the NLW, though despite it having an ISBN the library decided to accession it as if it were a copy of an MS, in the "NLW Ex" series.) A proportion of Lawson's original research papers also came to the NLW. For full info see this link to the catalogue (http://isys.llgc.org.uk/isysquery/irl595/7/doc).
The source citations in the footnotes are outstandingly detailed and impressive. I wish I had a copy. It would be a good companion for that visit to Caernarfon RO!
On the Llanhaeadr MIs, Jo, if you can verify them in the way you suggest, that would be very useful.
Rol
I am glad you found it interesting. A small group of us did the research and it was a matter of putting together several sources which by chance I uncovered linked together. It had almost been forgotten, apart from by the family themselves, and once the link between Burkes and the earlier references like Yorke and Dwnn were made it was then the matter of referencing it to the level the Wikipedia admins demanded. You are right that the Welsh families tended not to follow rules like primogeniture but they did strictly adhere to the royal bloodline, in an exclusively male line and insist it was proven ancestry. On the basis of those requirements (key was this bloodline was only in the male line and could be proved so far as is now possible without going into DNA tests) and as far as we know none others can be, we felt confident to say the Anwyl of Tywyn family are the premier claimants to any dormant Gwynedd royal title according to their rules of inheritance.
Something that will need looking up soon is whether there are any exclusively male line descendants living beyond Evan and his only son, Michael. After them we do not know of any male lines extant.
James