RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests => Nottinghamshire => England => Nottingham Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Framesmiths1816 on Saturday 18 October 08 11:35 BST (UK)
-
I know there are some of you out there with a great deal of knowledge in this area, so hopefully someone might be able to help me.
I am looking for more sources of information for Nottingham Lace Manufacturer John Warner (c1785/1790). I only have two at the moment.
1. Pigot's 1835 Commercial Directory lists John Warner Lace Manufacturer Stoney St.
2. 1841 Census lists John Warner 19 Stoney St, Lace Agent. He is living at a Girls Academy run by Mrs Sarah Warner and Jane Foulkes. Mrs Warner's Academy can be found in Directories from 1825 to 1848. I do not know if they are married or related.
My relative is mentioned in Sheila Mason's book Nottingham Lace and I would like to find out if this John Warner is the same person.
All help and information very gratefully received.
Framesmiths1816
Additional : I have just found two reference snippits in The Law Advertiser 1823 and 1831.
"John Warner Nottingham Lace Manufacturer, Partners Thomas and George Jerram Seal Aug' 30 1823"
"Jerram Thomas, John Warner, George Turner Jerram Lace Manufacturers Nottingham and Manchester March 1 1831"
The company was called Jerram, Warner & Jerram and was in Halifax Place Nottingham and they are described as Lace Manufacturers Nottingham and Manchester.
-
There was a John Warner who married a Sarah Walker on 1st October 1821, at St Marys Nottingham - could this be the one who became Sarah Warner - I wonder?
BG :)
-
Hi BG,
I am not sure. The 1841 census states that neither John or Sarah are from Nottinghamshire. I know that John is from Leicestershire but I cannot say where Sarah is from. Isn't is usual for brides to be married in their parish? I suppose it could be her if her parents came from somewhere else. I really don't have enough information to know which candidate are likely and which ones to dismiss. Still no-one said Genealogy was easy.
Thanks - Framesmiths1816
-
Hi BG,
Sorry, Paulene has told me off ;D for not getting back to you. In truth, I had forgotten I had started this thread.
Yes you are correct, this is the right marriage. Sarah's Will indicates her maiden name is Walker and the Marriage Bond gives her parish as St Mary's Nottingham and John's as St Werburgh Derby although it is my belief that neither of them was born in these localities.
Well done and thank you.
I shall mark this thread - completed.
All the best - Mark
-
Sorry but I have only just seen this.My g,g,grandfather was George Bradley (Lace Thread Maufacturer) of Nottingham who married Mary Jerram of Long Eaton,Derbyshire.Does this help at all?
-
Hi Thanks for your reply,
I am not at home with all my information at the moment I will get back to you after Christmas.
FS
-
Just found this site. I am connected to Mary Jerram. Her father James Jerram (1745 - 1810) who married Ellen Crofts, was my ggg grandfather. I am decended from her brother James who married Hannah Lawton, then his son James who married Mary Galloway. The latter named emigrated to New Zealand in 1859 and we have quite a clan of Jerrams in this country. Interesting to be able to find a connection to the family. Have often wondered about the Lace factory.
-
Hi Diana,
I have some trouble trying to build a small tree for the Jerrams. The Lace factory that my ancester John Warner was involved with was called Jerram,Warner and Jerram and was in Halifax Place Nottingham. While halifax place is still there, the factory has now gone. The two Jerrams were Thomas Jerram (father) and George Turner Jerram (son). Thomas died in 1852/3 (I think - I have his Will) and was living in 1841 in St Pancras London with his son Geiorge and family (wife Harriet and grandson George). The business was created as a partnership by public annoucement on 30th Aug' 1823,in 1831 the partnership was desolved by public announcement described as "Jerram,Warner and Jerram - Nottingham and Manchester".
This is about as much as I know and I have not really mananged to work out where the Jerrams came from or went to, but if they ended up in New Zealand, that could explain it.
I hope this might help a little.
Best regards - Mark
Added - If I remember correctly there is also more than one Lace concern with the name Jerram in it in Nottingham - I have not been able to establish a connection between then, although I suspect there is one.
If anyone can has or finds further info on Thomas Jerram and George Turner Jerram I would be very interested.
I will read the will again tonight to see if any names you mention are in it.
-
Hi Diana, I will dig out my very battered Bradley Pedigree and see what I can find regarding Mary Jerram who was my g,g,grandmother.My maiden name was Bradley and Mary married George Bradley who was a Lace Thread manufacturer at Nottingham.Mary was born at Long Eaton and died at Lenton.Both she and George are buried in a family vault at Nottingham General Cemetery.
-
Hi,
I think I have a possible connection now after some digging around.
From the Will of Thomas Jerramthere are the following names and relationships. Thomas died in Q1 1852 between 23rd Jan and 8th March 1852.From the 1851 census he was born in Blidworth Notts around 1778/9.
Amelia (AKA Emily) Jerram - Daughter
George Turner Jerram - Son
Harriet - Wife
John Jerram - Nephew (Tea Dealer)
Mary Orton (nee Jerram) married to Dr Henry Orton (Surgeon) see :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08ea
(This family were in Canada by 1834).
At his death Thomas left property in both Cheltenham and Beeston Nottingham.
I think it very likely that Harriet, who is a several years younger than Thomas, is a later mariage and the the mother of Mary & George is Mary Turner married in Leeds in 1802 although there is a possibility that it could be a Sarah Turner.
Thomas appears to have had at least four siblings all born in Blidworth
John 1768
Charles 1770
William 1774
Samuel 1776
Thomas 20/11/1778
all born to Charles Jerram and Mary (Knutter ?) married 23rd/2/1768 in Blidworth.
It seems likely that Charles was baptised in Sawley and Long Eaton 17/10/1734, born to John and Mary Jerrom. If this is correct then Charles is an older brother to your James born in 1745.
If you think this is likely correct then I suggest you check out your Canadian cousins.
I hope this is helpful to you both.
Best regards - Mark
-
Hi Mark,
Most interesting to get your messages. Nice to know we have connections in Canada!! I shall now follow that through.
I have traced our connection to John Jerram (1706-1769), who married Elizabeth Mary Anne Gregory. Anne died at the birth of their son Charles b 1734 at Sawley. Five years later, John married Mary Robinson and they had two sons, William b 1742 and James (my ancestor) b 1745, making them half brothers to Charles.
Charles married Mary Knutton, daughter of William Knutton of Larch Farm near Blidworth. I have the same listing as you for their family. I didn't know that Thomas had gone to Canada. His wife Harriot (nee Wood) was the widow of his brother Samuel who died in 1824 and to my knowledge, this was his only marriage. I do have listings of Charles descendants, some dating to about the 1920's. My Jerram records go back to the 1500's. Hope that is of help.
Regards, Diana
-
Mary Jerram was one of eleven children born to James and Ellen (nee Crofts) Jerram.
James c 1773 (my ancestor) who married Hannah Lawton
Thomas b 1773
Mary b 1775 who married George Bradley
Ann c 1776
Elizabeth c 1778
William c 1779
Hannah c 1780
Eleanor b 1781 who married Henry Pratt
Abigail c 1783
John c 1784
Sophia c 1788
My James Jerram (Mary Bradley's nephew) was in partnership in a lace factory in Nottingham with his brother John which had been started with their father James Jerram. I believe there factory was situated at High Pavement and Island Streets and later at Castlegate. It is believed there was a dispute between the brothers around 1850 and it was then that James decided to move on and came to New Zealand with his family. They had
Sarah b 1839 who we believed died before they left England
Ann Galloway b 1840 who was a teacher in Auckland, NZ
James Tait b 1842 who married Harriet Speedy
George Gibson b 1843 who returned to Nottingham
Mary Ellen b 1847 who married William Neale
William Galloway b 1848 ( my grandfather) who married Fanny Harley.
I hope this is of interest to you.
Kindest regards, Diana
-
Hi Mark,
Most interesting to get your messages. Nice to know we have connections in Canada!! I shall now follow that through.
I have traced our connection to John Jerram (1706-1769), who married Elizabeth Mary Anne Gregory. Anne died at the birth of their son Charles b 1734 at Sawley. Five years later, John married Mary Robinson and they had two sons, William b 1742 and James (my ancestor) b 1745, making them half brothers to Charles.
Charles married Mary Knutton, daughter of William Knutton of Larch Farm near Blidworth. I have the same listing as you for their family. I didn't know that Thomas had gone to Canada. His wife Harriot (nee Wood) was the widow of his brother Samuel who died in 1824 and to my knowledge, this was his only marriage. I do have listings of Charles descendants, some dating to about the 1920's. My Jerram records go back to the 1500's. Hope that is of help.
Regards, Diana
Hi Diana,
Thanks for all this extra information. I have been puzzling over the Jerram family for some time, so it is interesting to find connections at last.
I think I have unintentionally mis-lead you. It is the Orton family Mary Orton (nee Jerram) and Dr Henry Orton and their children that went to Canada. Mary's father, Thomas b 1778 blidworth stayed in the UK and he and his wife lived at 4 Seagrove Place Cheltenham. His son George Turner Jerram was born in 1805 and Mary was born in 1808. Mary married Henry Orton in 24th April 1828 in Beeston. If, as you say, Harriot is the widdow of Samuel, who died in 1824 then George and Mary cannot be the children of Harriot (although Emily/Amelia might be). Is this what you meant by "This was his only marriage" or did you mean Samuel? I am as certain as I can be that Thomas married twice although there is a possibility he might have married a third time sometime between 1815 and 1820 but this is only a hunch and is probably wrong from what you have told me.
From what you tell me, I would now suspect that the Nephew mentioned in the Will, John Jerram ( Tea Dealer), is probably the child of the Samuel Jerram and Harriot Wood marrige. I will see if I can find out.
There are patent documents on the Internet relating to George Turner Jerram dating from around 1845 which might also be of interest to you. George seems to marry in Cheltenham in 1842. The Will also indicates that Amelia/Emily in not yet 21 in 1852
If you wish to get a copy it is available throught the National Archives online documents for £3.50.
Best regards - Mark
Added - High Pavement is very close to Halifax place in the Lace Market area of Nottingham. John and Sarah Warner (my relatives) lived at Plumptree House next to St Mary's church, sadly demolished in the 1850's to make way for the Birkin Lace factory on Stoney Street. I highly recommend (if you do not have it) finding a copy of William Felkin's book A history of Machine made Lace.. which was written in the 1850's and details many of the persononalities of the area which he knew personally. I have subscribers copy (first edition made for a person mentioned int he book) and will see if others of your family are mentioned.
-
Hi Mark,
This all seems to be falling into place. Thank you too for the information you have sent. It is so hard finding things out from the other side of the world. I am glad to have been able to help in some little way.
I have looked back to my original information and omitted to see that Thomas Jerram had indeed been married twice and believed there had only been one marriage. It is noted in very small writing that Harriet was his second wife, but there is no mention as to the name of his previous one. His three children are listed as their family! I have looked for a Jerram / Turner marriages in the BD&M listings I have available and the only ones I have come up with don't have a George Turner Jerram listed among their children. There is a Mary and a Sarah, but I cannot comfirm that they are the right ones, although they all lived in Sawley!
As you say, the nephew John mentioned in the will may well have been Harriot and Samuel's son, as Samuel was a tea merchant, but I have been unable to find any children to them and assumed there weren't any. I don't see any other John listed who could be a nephew to him in the other families.
I have looked up to Orton family and found it all most interesting. I had been missled with the surname being Horton in the records I had been given, so hadn't been able to trace them before.
It is all very interesting with the Lace factories too. I shall see if I can source the book you mentioned. I went to Nottingham about three years ago, but couldn't find anything at the information centre relating to the Jerram family.
Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.
Kindest regards. Diana
-
Hi Mark,
I do believe I have solved our problem regarding Thomas Jerram's first marriage by searching in IGI files. Here I have found a marriage for :
Thomas Jerom to Mary Greatorex on 22nd October 1804 at Chrich, Derby, England under the Derby register.
I them went to Nottingham and found the christenings of three children to Thomas and Mary Jerom at St Nicholas, Nottingham.
George Jerom c 3rd April, 1805
Charles Jerrom c 3rd September, 1806
Mary Jerrom c 20th April, 1808.
What do you think?? These dates match those you supplied for George Turner and Mary!!!
Kindest regards.
Diana
-
Hi Diana,
Well they certainly are possibilities. These are the children, I had seen in the IGI also and had assumed that they were very possibly the right ones.
The marriage, though, could be right but I have the following concerns.
1. There is a bit of a precident for the Jerrams using the mothers maiden name as a second name, which is why I suspect it could be Turner. Also there is two other George Turner's. One being George Turner Orton and the second being George Turner Jerram (Thomas' grandson or nephew). The Turner name is significant some how.
2. The 1851 census gives Amelia/Emily as being 33 so she is born 1818 ish. There is an IGI record for a birth/baptism that matches this date giving the mother as Sarah.
3. St Nicolas is a Church of England Church. Thomas Jerram and his accociates were staunch Wesleyans and Baptists. Thomas left money in his Will to the Wesleyan missionary society and other Wesleyan Churches as well as St Ann's school and church which, if I remember correctly was endowed and built by Thomas Jerram. While non-conformist churches were not licensed to marry, so most marriages are in C of E churches at this date, Baptisms would be in a Wesleyan church unless he was a late convert.
Can you see see why I suspect a possible third marriage?
I guess that a death date for Mary (1st wife) would be useful. Did Thomas and Harriet marry in Nottingham?
What do you think?
Best regards - Mark
-
Hi Mark,
And, so the saga goes on with Thomas!!
I do see how you suspect a third marriage with the information we can glean from records, although I believe that Turner must have been a name connected to a previous generation, as I doubt that the other George Turner Jerram who was Thomas's nephew would have been named after his aunt by marriage surname!
You are right in noting that children were often given the surname of their mother in many of the families. It seemed to happen often in these families.
I have just looked up the IGI records (not that they are all complete I am sure), but did find the christening of Amelia Jerram on 24th July, 1817 with parents Thomas Jerram and Sarah. On looking for a marriage between a Thomas Jerram and Sarah Turner, one took place on 22nd April, 1832 at Sawley, some 15 years after Amelia's birth/christening, so I doubt that would apply.
I too did notice a different church, but am not familiar with the various religions of the Nottingham churches. Maybe Thomas's wife Mary belonged to that one.
I believe the only way we are going to solve this is to visit the various churches the family attended and see for ourselves, the registers in the church. Unfortunately that is a bit out of the question for me being on the other side of the world!!
Sorry I haven't anything more positive to tell.
Kind Regards, Diana
-
Hi Diana,
Your points are well made. Speculation on any of this is just that, speculation, without the evidence to support it.
Turner is somehow significant but maybe significant to different generations for different reasons. I think that is all we can accurately surmise.
I also do not live near Nottingham, although I am closer than you are. We might be able to ask the help of some Nottinghamshire based Rootschat members who also have a special interest in the Nottingham Lace Industry.
I would suspect that there are some church records that either don't exist anymore or the IGI doesn't have as there is no obviously clear results around this family.
There is also the possible Jerrom/Turner marriage in 1802 in Leeds. It shouldn't be discounted. Thomas would have been over 21 in 1802 and possibly finshing an apprenticeship. It is not impossible that he went to Leeds or somewhere in that direction for this purpose. Apprenticeships usually ran from 14 to 21 and very often marriages follow the completion as the man is deemed able to support the wife on its completion. The Nottingham Lace Industry didn't really exist in 1802, Heathcote didn't patent the first machine until around 1810 so Lace was still a cottage industry at this time. If he did an apprenticeship then it might have been in an allied industry like Cotton whose early mechanisation was the foundation that the Lace industry was built on. Thomas's partner, John Warner came from Derby to Nottingham but he and his family was from Loughborough. His brother Isaac, my 4 x great grandfather, worked for John Heathcote in Loughborough, Devon and Paris. John, I think, worked in Derby for Heathcote's former partner Boden before coming to Nottingham. My reason for mentioning all this is to illustrate that people could be far more mobile than might be expected. Isaac died in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Best regards - Mark
Added - Found this under Nottingham Marriage bonds
Bride - Eliza, Elizabeth Beastall of Nottingham St Peter Spinster 21
Groom - George Turner Jerram of Nottingham St Mary Bachelor 21
Date 10/9/1827
Added No.2 - I think this nails the IGI references as the correct family
The Parish register search under freebmd has this entry
George Turner Jerram Bpt 3/4/1805 St Nicolas Nottingham
Sex - Male
Father Thomas Jerram, Mother Mary
File no. 11737
Mary is also there with the same details but look at this one
Amelia Jerram 24/7/1817 St Mary's Nottingham
Sex - Female
Father Thomas Jerram, Mother Sarah
Abode - Halifax Lane
Fathers occupation Lace Manufacturer
File No. 11720
Surely this cannot be a coincidence
-
Hi Mark,
This is all very interesting about the lace industry etc.
Thomas is sure proving to be a bit of a mystery man!! If only all the IGI etc records were complete!! (Not knocking them at all, as I think they are a marvelous tool for finding people) I don't think the Thomas Jerram/Sarah Turner marriage in 1832 can be the right one though.
It does sound as if we have the right Amelia Jerram with the correct address etc. and the date would fit for him to have had another marriage/partner before he married Harriot, as his brother Samuel didn't die until 1824 and I am not sure of the date of his marriage in the Channel Islands, but it is recorded in a family tree I have which was compiled back in the 1930's.
Re the George Turner Jerram marriage you found - that is the correct one.
He and Elizabeth Beastall had a son: George Beastall Jerram born 23/2/1841 and christened at Old Church, St Pancras, London.
George Turner Jerram married a 2nd time to Julia Bevan (date unknown) and at the 1881 Census was living at Highbury Hill Stoneham, London. They had two daughters:
Caroline Julia Jerram born in 1849 who was married George Morris and had three children.
Anna Eva Jerram born in 1857 in Islington, Middlesex who was living with her parents in the 1881 Census in London. She later married Charles Howard Atkisson and had three children.
Things can get very complicated when there are multiple marriages.
Hope this comfirms you are on the right track. Can you tell me the web site for the Parish register as I have other my gg grandfathers in-laws to trace through the same parish - the Galloways who I believe were also involved in the Nottingham Lace Industry.
Will keep on looking for further evidence!!
Kind regards. Diana
-
Hi Diana,
A quick message as it is late here.
The marriage bonds come from the Nottingham University site
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08f8
The parish records came from
http://www.freereg.org.uk
I also looked at some commercial directories
Thomas was living on :
Park St 1815
Halifax Lane 1817
Halifax Place 1823
Halifax Place 1831
Lenton Priory 1835
St Pancras 1841 (London)
4 Seagrave Place 1851 (Cheltenham)
You say Thomas and Harriot married in the Channel Islands? That would explain why I cannot find it then.
While looking at the above websites I did spot a Jerram (I think) with the middle name of Galloway), it stuck in my mind when I saw it as a possibly significant name.
I also noted that in 1825 a John T Jerram was also operating from Halifax place and that at the same time that Jerram, Warner and Jerram were trading from Halifax place (1823 to 1831) there was also a Jerram and Harpham trading in Halifax Place as well.
Best regards - Mark
-
Hi Mark,
That was a great find with Amelia Jerram's birth. It is almost certain to be the right one.
Now this is just a hunch, but I have had a general look at IGI and have come up with an Amelia Jerram in the 1881 Census, staying with Jacob and Mary Sturton at Holbeach Lincoln, where Jacob was the Vicar of Little Bedwyn and Amelia his guest is aged 62 and an Aunt to Jacob. On looking into the Sturton marriage, I find she was Mary Jane Taylor of Nottingham. Do you think that is any connection? I haven't had time to look any further.
I do not have a John T Jerram in my lists at all, but my G Grandfathers brother was John and he was in the lace industry - infact the two brothers were the last to run the factory begun by their father. Family history tells that it was mysteriously burnt down not long after the brothers had a dispute.
As a note to your comment about the Galloway name. My Grandfather was William Galloway Jerram, born in 1848, obviously taken from his mothers maiden name. I think it was her grandfather on her mothers side who was involved with the lace industry - Gibson was the surname.
Thanks for all your information. It has been a great help to me.
Kindest Regards, Diana
-
Hi Diana,
Your Welcome, its been nice to do a bit of research again and have a little bit of success.
I had wondered if Amelia never married and it looks like you could be correct.
I would still like to put dates and full names to the Marriage and Death of Mary, who I still suspect is a Turner, and also Sarah. Their death dates pre date (I think) the creation of Nottingham General Cemetary and CHurch Cemetary. The two Churches in the Lace market area are St Mary's and St Nicolas, so I would think one or both might be there. However because of the Park Street address, which seems to be across town in Lenton, the closest there would be Holy Trinity.
I think now that Thomas was a late convert to the Wesleyian Church. This could have been a part tactical/political choice. Of the powerful people in Nottingham (Mayors, businessmen, officials) a very high proportion were non-conformists and of these the biggest number were Wesleyan. For example, John Warner's wife Sarah ran a Wesleyan Private Girls School very successfully and she is written about in the Wesleyan Magazine many times, even 60 years after her death. Her cousin, with whom she is buried, was Mayor of Nottingham 3 times. I think it was a bit of a club and commercially it paid to be in it and not outside. Sarah and John were very well connected within this network and would have been well placed to Introduce Thomas to key people.
I have collected and taken pictures of some parts of the Lace Market, like Halifax Place, on which still stands one of the oldest Nottingham Wesleyan Chapels, which if memory serves was ministered to be Sampson Biddulph, who also happens to hold the post of Teacher (Rigilious) at Sarah's school.
If you send me your email address in a private message (PM) I will email you some photos.
I will try a few options to see if Mary and Sarah's details can be found.
Best regards - Mark
Added - A very kind roots chatter (a Lady called Sunflower) found this burial for you.
Mary Jerram 7.4.1811 St Nicolas , wife of Thomas.
I think the source will be the Notts Family History Society's CD's but I cannot yet confirm this.
Having got this date of death for Mary, have you seen this other Baptism on the freereg site?
Ann Jerram Bpt 24.8.1813 St Nicolas
Father Thomas, Mother Ann
Sex - Female
Abode - Park Street,
Father's occupation Hosier
This fits with the 1815 Commercial Directory which gave Thomas' address as Park St.
Does this mean a 4th marriage or could Ann and Sarah be the same person perhaps. I am reasonably certain there isn't a second Thomas Jerram Hosier and Lace Manufacturer as the only other Jerrams I have pick up are James and John T and George Turner Jerram in this trade and at this level.
Added 2 - Sunflower has come up with some more info.
Charles Jerram born in 1806 was buried 1/3/1808, St Nicolas, Son of Thomas
Ann Jerram aged 36 Buried 23/8/1813 St Nicolas, Park Street.
It seems this Ann, if she is another wife of our Thomas, probably died due to to complications in child birth of the Ann Bpt 24/8/1813. The dates and Address make this a reasonable guess.
So Sarah and Ann are not the same person and Sarah's marriage is now most likely between 8 1813 and 1817.
-
Hi Mark,
You have been busy with your research. I shall have to be very brief today as I am looking after one of my granddaughters and haven't the time to do any research.
My goodness the complications of our Thomas Jerram seem to become more and more every day!! What great findings there have been by Sunflower!! We must thank her for that. She seems to have come up with some very solid answers to our questions. It seems he had an interesting but often tragic life.
I shall be intouch again tomorrow when I shall have time to do more digging!
Not sure how to send a PM with my e-mail address in this system. The photo's sound most interesting.
Talk tomorrow. Diana