RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: jollyrob on Friday 17 October 08 20:20 BST (UK)
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Hello
i am searching for information on an ancestor of mine who died on the hms captain in 1870. his name was E webb, my father was told he was named after him ( edwin fredrick) but we cant be sure without more information. we know that my fathers great grandfather james webb was a sailor and we think that maybe e webb was one of his brothers. There is a memorial plaque in st pauls cathedral with the names of all those lost on hms captain and my ancestor e webb is listed there ( so we know its not just some family rumour). we know that he was not a 'boy' on the ship ( so was probably over 18 years old at the time of sinking) . Any advice on how we can find out more details of this relative would be gratefully recieved.
thank you
kim webb
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Hi Kim
I've moved this from the London Board to Armed Forces.
I'm sure there will be someone here who can help you further.
Can you tell us what resources you have already looked at to prevent duplication of effort?
Dawn
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Hi Kim
Here are two links for researching naval men at Kew:
= http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=39
= http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/military/navy/rnstep1.htm
Ken
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I can see why the plaque was placed in the Cathedral what a tradgedy.
This is one of the British Royal Navy’s greatest peacetime losses, HMS Captain, an experimental ship, capsized during her trials in the Bay of Biscay, on 7th September 1870, only 20 survivors out of a crew of over 500.
It capsized during a storm, described by those on traditional ships in the same fleet as unexceptional.
The created a public outcry and sympathy for the bereaved.
The most tangible memorial to the disaster today comprises two large plaques in St Paul’s Cathedral in London, one giving the official account of the disaster, with a list of the ship’s officers, and the other listing the seamen, Royal Marines and boys who died.
Many descendants rely on word-of-mouth family history stories, are interested in the details of the accident, and the records of both those lost and the very few who survived. Some have been in touch with each other, and exchanged information.
If you wish to do this look here:
http://www.hmscaptain.co.uk/
http://www.memorials.inportsmouth.co.uk/churches/st_anns/hms_captain.htm
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If you think James Webb had a brother called Edwin than that should be relatively easy to track on the censuses. Where and when was James Webb born?
Regards
Valda
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hello
i have tried the census, but i cant pin the family down, we dont as yet know the name of francis mother which doesnt help matters ( we should find out when francis marriage certificate arrives.) there is no 1881 census which is the one that would help us most.
we know that francis married in 1900, and that he had a witness called charles webb, which we assume could be a brother. but we cannot find the family prior to that. i have searched for james francis his father and even charles webb, but nothing is coming up with the correct names, i have a few possibles but they then have no e webb in the family line. by 1891 our francis was 14 and so may have left home, which makes it harder. we really have tried looking at all the possibilities but cant seem to find a link to an ewebb yet. i am still working on it though.
does anyone know why there is no 1891 census?
i am still hoping that someone else will have an ancestor e webb from the hms captain and that they might be able to help me.
we tried searching for a crew list that might at least tell us what the initial E stood for. as it stands there are at least 7 edwin webbs alone that were in the navy between 1853 and 1870 and hundreds of e webbs, so it is a bit impractical not to mention expensive to request all their sea records in order to find the one on the captain. also we have no way of knowing for sure that he did joined after 1853 in which case searching for him will be significantly harder. we need really to find out info from the hms captain and trace him back rather than trying to find an e webb in the navy. if we were sure his name was edwin then it would be worth requesting all 7 service details.
it is proving a difficult find, but i shall endeavour to find a link.
i appreciate all the suggestions given so far.
my father has a hand made tapestry of the hms captain that has been handed down through the family (another hint that we are related to the e webb on hms captain). im 99% he is a great great uncle or something but still i would love to find the proof so my dad can be sure he inherited his name from this man.
kim
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ok so a list of resources i have tried so far are.
the national archive ( online), Genes Reunited - census birth marriage etc, free bmd search, family search.org.
we have tried the www.hmscaptain .co.uk and the portsmouth memorial site. my father has visited st pauls cathedral and seen the plaques first hand. of course i am only a beginner at this ancestor searching ( i started 2 weeks ago) so im not going to pretend that i have searched all thes resources exhaustively.
i have spoken to a chap in the national archive library for advice ( he gave me the informaion about the number of e webbs and edwin webbs during the periods described). he says that i am going to have a ahrd job unless i can be sure of the sailors full name or at least a rough d.o.b
eventually i will go to london to the archives myself and have a full search but a i live in north wales its not an easy task.
why my dad has to be related to someone so hard to find!!
kim :)
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Hi Kim !
I know you said you had seen
www.hmscaptain .co.uk
but I wonder if you could trace him through the relief fund ??!
http://www.hmscaptain.co.uk/The%20Story/The%20Times%20reports/thetimesrelieffundintro.htm
Some very interesting stuff on that site .... though it's always easier to trace Officers than regular seamen ! .... this page gave a list of probable places to look
HMS Captain 1870 Guide to further research
Various things have been of use in compiling both genealogical and historical information regarding HMS Captain, and these are listed below. There are probably many more, and the author of this web site would be pleased to learn of anything worth adding to this list.
The National Archives (formerly the Public Records Office), Kew, London (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)
The National Archives building is easily accessible, free, very helpful, and well worth many visits. Apparently there are ten million records available here, but those naval records that have been of help so far are -
ADM 29/98 Record of Service
ADM 154/6 Deaths at Sea
ADM 12/10 Widows Pension list
ADM 115/172 Debts and credits
ADM 23/143 Special Pensions
ADM 139/360 Continuous Service records
ADM 44 Wills, births and marriage certificates
And no doubt many more.
Royal Hospital School, Greenwich
Although the records are also kept at the National Archives (PRO) at Kew (ADM 73/226), this is well worth a separate mention. Set up in what is now the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, London, the school was founded in the 17th century for the support of Royal Navy seaman, their widows and children.
The writer’s own ancestor on HMS Captain had both brothers and his own children there, and ADM 73/226 contains packets of papers for each boy joining the school. This is a goldmine for genealogists, containing the original application forms, records of service for the fathers, lists of siblings, and much more supporting the application.
National Maritime Museum, Greenwich (www.nmm.ac.uk)
Within their big collection of maritime books and paintings etc are those relating to HMS Captain; various storage facilities away from the main building which house, amongst other things, the models of the ship. In addition, at their Woolwich Arsenal site is housed the Historic Photographs & Ship Plans Section, which has a couple of dozen original prints of the construction plans of HMS Captain. Visit by appointment, where they will provide (for a charge) copies for you. Be aware that the ones produced for this website's author are up to 3 metres long.
Seamans Orphan Home, Berry Head Road, Brixham, Devon
It is probable that some children from those lost from HMS Captain were looked after here. But although attendance records for the late 19th century do not now exist, certainly the school was listed in the 1871 and 1881 UK census returns, and about ten surnames tie up with those on the list of those lost on the St Paul’s plaques.
Worth a look for family tree investigators.
Thesis
Searching the web for references to HMS Captain, details of a thesis entitled “Floating Bodies, Naval Science: science, design, and the Captain controversy, 1860-1870,” 1994 (Max Planck Inst, Berlin) by Dave McGee were found on http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~hapsat/recent_grads.html
The thesis purports to “argue the Captain disaster is best understood as a collapse of the social process of design”.
To which I can add nothing.
Stanley Sandler's article
`In Deference to Public Opinion' - The Loss of HMS Captain, referred to elsewhere has extensive references at the end which may be useful.
D K Brown, RCNC
Wrote an article published in "Warship Technology" (1989), the journal of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects entitled "The Design and Loss of HMS Captain", the conclusions being included in the "Where Does the Blame Lie" section of this website.
Annie :)
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Hello
alas the relief fund does not have the names of any beneficiarys so its useless. unless i know he had dependants and what sex they are then i could search each orphanage for webb intakes but as most free places were offered to officers ( and my ancestor wasnt one) then it is highly unlikely i will find anything.
i very much would like to visit the national archives but i live quite far away so i will have to save that for the future. the university of toronto site was of no help, and form what i gathered was more about the design faults of the ship as opposed to crew lists, but even if that is not the case i cant quite work out how i can access more information.
i made a mistake before it wasnt a chap in the national archives i spoke to it was a chap in the nmm.
this is still looking a bit hopeless, but im not going to give up, please keep giving me more suggestions one of them will turn up a winner!
kim
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Hi Kim
What part of the country are you searching for your WEBB family?
You have a Francis WEBB with father James Francis? There's one in Plumstead in 1881 with a brother Henry E. He isn't a sailor though (but what is your source for this info?)
I'd be happy to have a go at the census if you give me some clues?
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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my grandfather was francis james webb born june 1877, on his marriage certificate ( june 1900) it states his father was a james francis webb (deceased) and that his father was a marriner. francis is listed as a machienist. it states francis place of birth as plumstead woolwich. we have no more info on james webb than that.
on the marriage certificate there is 1 witness called charles webb, we assume he is a relation of francis.
im not sure if it is in anyway significant but when searching for francis birth certificate i found his gro volume and page (1d 1040 june 1877 woolwich) and directly above him on the same page, volume and district is a bernard james webb. i dont know if this is coinidence or if it suggests a twin. my father ( the only living relative of francis that we know) has no memory of twins being mentioned in his family. i searched for a death certificate for bernard close to his birth but coyuldnt find one, suggesting bernard survived long enough.
cant find the family in the census though.
let me know if you need any other info, i would appreciate a more experienced pair of eyes to have a look, thank you so much.
kim
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hello Kim
Unusual for a marriage certificate to state a place of birth? Unless you also have the birth cert?
The 1881 census I mentioned above fits Plumstead nicely though. Maybe James became a sailor later? I'll see whether I can trace this family forward.
Bear with me ...
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This is the 1881 I mentioned:
RG11/750/102/38
James Francis WEBB H M 34 - iron trimmer - Kent Woolwich
Emily W M 32 - do
Josiah Hames Hy son 6 - do Plumstead
Francis Jas son 4 - do
Elizth May dau 1 - do
Henry Edwd son 4 months - do
Fredk Wm JAMES bro in law U 19 - core maker in iron foundry - do Woolwich
Fredk John PARSONS boarder U 20 - musician - do Plumstead
Address: 179 Sandy Hill Rd, Plumstead
In 1891 there's a 14 year old Bernard, son of Francis and Julia, born Plumstead, living in Plumstead.
RG12/536/101/8
This father Francis is a tailor (note - often misread as sailor!!) and there is a younger Francis but he is only 4 years old.
I'd guess from that Bernard is not a twin of your Francis - still looking though ...
Also in 1891 - this appears to be your man, if if if the 1881 is right??
1891 RG12/535/156/33
Emily WEBB H Wid 42 - machinist - Kent Woolwich
J J H son 16 - carpenter's apprentice - do Plumstead
F J son 14 - machinist - do
Henry Ed son 10 - scholar - do
Mary Gertrude dau 8 - do - do
Address: 179 Sandy Hill Rd, Plumstead
This doesn't help with Charles and I'm not sure about the "E" unless that's what Henry called himself?
A ;)
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One observation that i would like to comment on is that Plumstead and Woolwich would have had military barracks.
Was he a Royal Marine as apposed to a mariner?
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I had a look for a link between this James and a Charles.
found one possible but can't prove it!
Could do with some more feedback before going further.
Kind regards, A ;)
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hello,
the marriage certificate says marriner but i dont know if that means he could have been in the navy.
we think e webb might be an uncle of francis james webb rather than a sibling of francis.
your right the marriage certificate says location at time of marriage as plumstead. but i have found his birth entrance and that does say woolwich. i have ordered his birth certificate so hopefully that will tell me more about francis parents. my only access to the census is via the Genes Reunited web site and for some reason that doesnt have 1881, where else can i access that information? i had found the bernard age 14 in the 1891 census too, ( and yes i miss read it as sailor! :)) the original version i could see was not very clear and i wasnt sure if the francis could be 14, it was an outside chance.
anyway thankyou,
i ll keep you posted if anything new comes up
kim
ps let me know if there is anything specific you need to know to help you,
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That helps a lot.
You can look on Familysearch for the 1881 census, although other sites also have it free:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=census/search_census.asp
I think it's best to wait for the next certificate. The address for your man's birth wil be a big clue, also his mother's name.
A ;)
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1901 census RG13 572 folio 164
13 Park Road Plumstead
Francis J Webb 24 Head Married Sewing machinist war material Plumstead Kent
Ellen E Webb 23 Wife Married Plumstead Kent
Fits to the 1891 and 1881 censuses that Arranroots has found.
Births Jun 1877
Webb Francis James Woolwich 1d 1040
Woolwich registration district covers Plumstead.
Marriage of parents
Marriages Jun 1872
James Emily Mary Dartford 2a 570
Webb James Francis Dartford 2a 570
Death of father
Deaths Mar 1888
WEBB James Francis 38 Woolwich 1d 788
possible birth of father
Births Mar 1849
Webb James Francis Greenwich 5 277
and possible Royal Navy service for James Webb but there doesn't seem to be a service record that fits for a James (Francis Webb) born Woolwich or earlier censuses for him with any certainty.
1871 census RG10 5784 folio 184
Royalist Royal Navy Havana Cuba
James Webb 22 Engineers' Cook Woolwich, Kent
You would need to obtain his marriage certificate to try to track James Francis with his parents on earlier censuses and find his siblings.
Regards
Valda
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hello
francis james webb birth certificate has finally arrived. his mother was indeed an emily james so it looks like it is that family from the census that was found, thank you everyone, now i can try looning for relations of that generation for an e webb hms captain.
kim
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hello
ok this is the info.
francis birth certificate
born 17th march 1877 at 53 princess road, plumstead, woolwich, kent (family home)
mother- emily webb formerly james.
father -james francis webb labourer,
marriage certificate for francis
francis married ellen cherryman on august 6th 1900
( i wont bother with anything about ellen - whos line i have traced back -with help- to 1512)
francis james webb aged 23 bachelor,
proffesion - machinist
resident of plumstead
father- james francis webb ( deceased) proffesion marriner
witnesses Charles james webb and agnes maud hicks ( i think its hicks)
I did find a death record for james francis webb in 1888 woolwich death 1d 780 age 38.
which could be him - there are no siblings of francis born after 1883 that i have seen.
the only other info i have is from the census record you found. i have not been able to find that entry myself though.
thanks kim
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hello
since my last email i have done some more hunting ( though still cant find anything in the 1881 census!). i have found a possible father, mother and siblings for a james francis webb born march 1849 in greenwich. i will have to order some certificates to be certain of the link but i thought i should tell you about it so you dont spend time researching anything i have already found.
John webb married mary ann (Turner or douglass) in greenwich 1838 december vol5 pg322
they have children
walter,c1840
william c 1842 ( who is in the 1851 census but not the 1861 census so may have died young)
mary ann c 1847
eliza c1848
James c 1849 ( my ancestor hopefully)
emily webb c 1856
ellen c 1857
charles 1861 ( could be the charles on my great grandfathers marriage certificate)
Amelia c 1862
i hope this is the right family. however there are still no e webb boys, so its not helping owards the hms captain link.
my father is pretty sure it is correct he has a hand made tapestry of the hms captain which has been handed down to him through his family- which is wierd to have if there is no truth in it!
kim
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Hi Kim
For completeness, the 1901 confirms that Emily is widowed and that Francis has left home:
RG13/570/142/18
E WEBB H Wid 53 - cartridge bag worker - Kent Woolwich
J son U 26 - carpenter - do Plumstead
? E dau U 21 - parlour maid - do
HE son U 20 - machine hand - do
Address: Arthur Cottage, Arthur St, Plumstead
(I think the ? E daughter could be May Elizabeth, an inversion of her name order, but I didn't put that cos the first letter resembles a U !!)
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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1851 census HO107 1586 folio 205 aged 21
? fields Greenwich (family in Greenwich on the 1861 & 1871 censuses)
John Webb 36 Head Married Coachman Cambridge
Mary Webb 31 Wife Married Hammersmith Middlesex
Walter Webb 11 Son Greenwich Kent
William Webb 9 Son Greenwich Kent
Mary Webb 6 Daughter Deptford Kent
Elisa Webb 2 Daughter Greenwich Kent
James Webb 1 Son Greenwich Kent (11 on the 1861 census, born Greenwich, 1871 census still with his family aged 21)
Besides James Francis Webb's birth registered in Greenwich registration district (he gives Woolwich as his birth registration on later confirmed censuses) there are other James Webb births registered in Greenwich registration district.
Births Mar 1849
Webb James Francis Greenwich 5 277
Births Dec 1849
WEBB James William Greenwich 5 205
Births Mar 1850
Webb James Isaac Greenwich 5 269
Births Sep 1850
Webb James Greenwich 5 211
With a birth registered in the March quarter of 1849 you might expect James Francis' age on the 1851 and 1861 censuses to be a little older than 1 (though census ages are often far from exact on censuses).
There is this family on the 1871 census. Charles was married and living in Plumstead on the 1881 census.
1871 RG10 782 folio 53
80 Beresford Road Woolwich Kent
Sarah Webb 53 Head Widow Formerly a laundress Woolwich Kent (charwoman in Plumstead on 1881 census Sarah A)
Charles Webb 18 Son Wood turner Woolwich Kent (Charles J on 1881 census married to Eliza with a one year old son)
Maria Webb 16 Daughter Woolwich Kent
Mary A Meredith 15 Niece Nursemaid London Middlesex
plus 1 boarder
the family are more difficult to find on the 1861 census.
Births Jun 1852
Webb Charles James Greenwich 1d 531
Marriages Mar 1879
WEBB Charles James Woolwich 1d 983
either
MORRIS Eliza Woolwich 1d 983
or
POULTON Elizabeth Woolwich 1d 983
Regards
Valda
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1851 census HO107 1589 folio 176
14 Salutatin Alley St Mary's Woolwich
James Webb 49 Head Married Wheelwright Dorchester Dorset
Sarah Webb 33 Wife Married Woolwich Kent
Edwin Webb 19 Son Porter at furniture warehouse Bath Somerset
Edward Webb 15 Son Wheelwright Godstone Surrey
William Webb 13 Son Lad at ?shop Godstone Surrey
Ellen Webb 11 Daughter Godstone Surrey
Henry Webb 9 Son Merstham Surrey
James Webb ? Son Woolwich Kent
Elizabeth Townsend 4 Niece Woolwich Kent
A likely second marriage for James
Births Sep 1839
Webb Ellen Pain Godstone 4 135
Births Jun 1841
Webb Henry Godstone 4 150
or
Births Jun 1840
Webb Henry Reigate 4 341
Webb Henry Reigate 4 346
Births Mar 1855
Webb Maria Sarah Greenwich 1d 614
Marriages Dec 1876 (>99%)
Blayney Frederick Woolwich 1d 1578
Webb Maria Sarah D Woolwich 1d 1578
1881 Maria was in Plumstead (5 Parry Place). Frederick Bla(y)ney was a wood turner, the same occupation as Charles James Webb, Maria's brother (in 1881 at 29 Parry Place).
1861 census RG9 4434 folio 187
Royal Navy Vessel Odin, Yantai China
Edward Webb 25 Single Carpenters Crew Godstone, Surrey
Edward Webb born Godstone not showing on later censuses.
1861 census RG9 4439 folio 209
Royal Navy Vessel Ganges, at Sea
Edwin Webb 29 Single Carpenter's Mate (Mate) Bath, Somerset
1881 census (onwards) in Plymouth Edwin C Webb born Bath aged 49 married pensioned carpenter's mate Royal Navy
Marriages Mar 1865
Webb Edwin Charles Plymouth 5b 358
Langmead Agnes Emily Plymouth 5B 358
Register's of Seaman's services
Name Webb, Edwin Charles
Place of Birth: Bath
Continuous Service Number: 12464
Date of Volunteering: 30 January 1854
26 July 1832 ADM 139/125
Name Webber alias Webb, Edwin Charles
Official Number: 62532
Place of Birth: Bath, Somerset
26 July 1832 ADM 188/42
Regards
Valda
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Possibly second marriage for James Francis' father
Marriages Mar 1848
WEBB James Greenwich 5 253
either
DOUGLASS Sarah Ann Greenwich 5 253
or
Foreman Emily Ann Greenwich 5 253
SUMMERFIELD Harriet Greenwich 5 253
Regards
Valda
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hello Valda and everyone else.
sorry i lost the link to rootschats and then couldnt find my message ( i forgot about it being moved to armed forces). I am so excited to see your messages.
since last replying on roots chat i have ordered and recieved the marriage certificate for james francis webb and emily james. this discounted the john webb family as his father is listed as a james frnacis webb. but i then ordered his birth certificate to just to be sure, and it lists his father as james francis webb wheelwright and sarah ann webb (nee douglass) as his mother ( so definately not the john webb family). but at this point i hit a wall and i have been completely unable to trace the family in any census.
but to see your messages valda i see you have found them, i have not had a lot of time to look in any detail yet ( my 2 toddlers are on high alert at the moment!). i also notice an edwin webb ( which i hope will lead me to hms captain!!)
thank you i will keep looking and organise what you have found and then get back to you.
kim
ps this time i will bookmark this page!!
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Hello
still thrilled to have found the connection( again many thanks). almost definately the right family. i am going to order the marriage certificate of james frances and sarah douglas so i can continue to trac the family tree. am worried it may not be the right e webb as our e webb died in 1870, so couldnt have been married in 1881.
hopefully i can find the edwin webb that went down on the ship.
kim
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Hi Kim
of the two brothers Edwin Charles and Edward both who appear to be in the navy on the 1861 census, I can only find Edwin Charles' Royal Navy record on The National Archives website.
Reference given in previous message.
Register's of Seaman's services
Name Webb, Edwin Charles
Place of Birth: Bath
Continuous Service Number: 12464
Date of Volunteering: 30 January 1854
26 July 1832 ADM 139/125
Name Webber alias Webb, Edwin Charles
Official Number: 62532
Place of Birth: Bath, Somerset
26 July 1832 ADM 188/42
Website reference
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch
However Edwin can be found on the 1881 census and censuses after that date, but not Edward. So of the two brothers only Edward could be a candidate for the man who died in 1870.
Regards
Valda
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thanks valda.
i will order edwards full record and see if he was on the hms captain.
Is the edwin that you found in the seaman records definately the edwin from our family?
it is quite understandable how after 80 years the wrong brothers name was put to the E webb hms captain, if it turns out to be edward my dad will be a tad dissapointed, he is mad about the sea and old ships and wreck diving. he loves telling us all how he is named after a relative that died on Hms captain.
ohh well thats the chance you take when you look into things.!!
thank you so much i would never have come this far without your help!!!
kim
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i cant find edwards record either. i have ordered edwins ( my dad will want to see it anyway) and james francis ( his half brother and my ancestor).
any ideas where do i go from here??
kim
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Hi Kim
Edwin's navy record should correspond to the known information of him from the censuses.
It would be possible to track Edward's navy career through the Ships' Muster and Pay Books starting with 'Odin' because you know he was serving on that ship in 1861 and coming forward from that, but that could only be done at The National Archives
see research guide
Royal Navy: Ratings' Service Records 1667-1923
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=39
Regards
Valda