RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: MairiD on Wednesday 15 October 08 22:42 BST (UK)
-
My family line is through a son of Peter Ness (1828-1912) who was a postman in Aberlady and his wife Helen Walker.
Peter was a son of William Ness (1794-1877) a tailor in Aberlady. His wife was a Mary Robertson---named on the birth certificates/death certificates though I have yet to find their marriage certificate.
William was the son of Joseph Ness, (1760-?) of Dirleton, a master tailor and a Margaret Paterson.
Joseph Ness was the eldest son (of five) born to William Ness and Marion Ponton/Punton who married in 1759 in North Berwick.
That is as far as I have got.
The earliest Ness couples in East Lothian are listed as
Patrick/Peter Ness and Ann Paterson, at Yester,
James Ness and Elizabeth Knox in North Berwick,
William Ness and Marion Ponton, North Berwick and Dirleton and
Thomas Ness and Agnes Acheson in Dirleton.
It would appear that the Nesses came across from Fife, perhaps Kettle.
Is anyone researching/interested in this name and has anyone positively identified the link with Fife?
'My' family Christian names are Peter, (presumably Patrick earlier) Joseph, William, Thomas, James.
MairiD.
-
Hope this may be of use. I have a Margaret Stewart Ness ( paper mill worker) married robert beck dickson. margaret's father was James a boilerman fireman in musselburgh 1912, his wife was Mary Ann Pearson a witness at the marriage of margaret is an Annie Ness
-
Thank you very much for replying to an old post. It was very kind of you. Have just tracked fireman James Ness back via SP and Ancestry. He was actually born James Stormer in Falkland but took the name Ness. He is listed as stepson to William Ness, a linen weaver in Falkland, who married an Ann Black. (This was obviously a complicated family!) William was a son of Henry Ness and Janet Annan in Falkland. Thus these Nesses were later arrivals to East Lothian. Have not yet found a link to 'my' Nesses but may later. There must have been many boats plying the Forth, taking passengers as well as goods, years ago and will, no doubt, have been quite a sight. Again thanks for this information. :) MairiD.
-
I have a Georgina Bryson in my tree,who married a (James ?) Ness in East Lothian in the early 1900's.She was my grandad's sister.
Regards,
Avril.
-
Thank you for that information.
That James Ness is not in my direct Ness line but in the bigger Ness tree on which I have over eight names.
I have just checked the marriage certificate of James and Georgina to find James' parents. He is descended from a sister of my great, great grandfather.
Some Nesses stayed in East Lothian, others moved the Edinburgh and Glasgow. It is interesting to learn of Aberlady Nesses who stayed on there. Did this couple live there after marriage?
Again many thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
MairiD
-
Hi Mhairi,
I found this "Ness" when searching on Ancestry -
There is a John Ness, 1 Bickerton Place, Aberlady, who was 34 yrs 8 months when he joined Royal Scots on 30th Jan 1915; he was a gamekeeper, employed by a Mr Fletcher, Saltoun Hall, Pencaitland.
His next of kin was his father, also John, there were no details as to marriage, so I assume he was single. His father married Elizabeth Young 17 Apr 1874 at Saltoun, East Lothian. (extracted record IGI) I found John aged 20 in 1901 census at Bicherton (sic) Place at Aberlady
Tom
-
Thank you very much Tom!
This John was a cousin of the James mentioned in Avril's post.
I have just looked up SP. to find John post -war. The death of a John Young Ness in 1962 in Kilmun, Argyll is data that fits in terms of name but of course I cannot see the DC. to check parentage.
(That he joined the Royal Scots is understandable. My great uncle, William Ness, living at the time in Glasgow, joined the 6th battalion, Seaforth Highlanders according to records. My understanding is that this was a Morayshire regiment so I do not know he came to be with them. He died during the battle of Beaumont Hamel in 1916 and is commemorated at Thiepval.
I have a studio photo of him, replendent in Seaforth uniform, which I took out in November to focus on around Remembrance Day. One day I hope to learn how military records, apart from just the plain Service Cards, can be accessed as I would like to know how he got the MM.)
Again thanks,
Is there anything I could help you with now?
MairiD.
-
The MM you refer to is the other ranks medal. The Military Medal was awarded about 1916 and was won for land battles prior to about 1938. Not sure if you can find out by other means by if you send me the details will look in the national archives at kew and see what i can come up with.
regards
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Mairi,
My Ness line runs through Janet Ness, daughter of William Ness and Mary Robertson. So from what you have on Peter they would have been brother and sister.
I have Janet's birth record. She was born Dec. 31, 1821 and baptized Jan. 6, 1822 in Aberlady. Witnesses were Joseph Ness and Thomas Robertson. I always assumed they were fathers of William and Mary.
Janet died in Aberlady of senile decay. Her death record in 1901 shows her name as Janet Robertson Ness, age 78, father: William Ness, tailor, deceased ,and mother: Mary Robertson, deceased. Although Janet had several children, she never married.
1851 census for Aberlady has William Ness age 60, tailor born Preston Pans, East Lothian, Mary, wife, age 60 out worker, born Aberlady, **Janet, daughter, age looks like 41, which would be wrong, out worker, born Aberlady, William, son age 19 shoe maker, born Aberlady, Mary Murphy, granddaughter, age 4 (or 6, not sure) born Aberlady, John Purves, grandson, age 2 born Aberlady. ** Janet should be 30 years old.
1861 census for Aberlady has William Ness, widower, age 67, tailor, born Prestonpans, Haddington, **Janet, daughter, age 30, farm worker, born Aberlady, John, grandson age 13, farm worker born Aberlady, William, grandson, age 11 born Aberlady, David, grandson age 2, born Aberlady
Again Janet's age is wrong, but then census records are not always to be relied on for ages. She should be 40.
In 1871 Aberlady census William, widower, tailor is age 77, born Preston Pans, Haddington, Janet, daughter, age 49 (finally a right age for her), unmarried, housekeeper, born Aberlady, William, grandson age 21, flesher, born Aberlady, and David, grandson age 12, scholar, born Aberlady.
Janet had a daughter Margaret who was my g-g-grandmother. I have had no luck in finding her in any census records before her marriage. She married James Kilgour in 1865, Aberlady. Her mother is shown as Janet Ness. Father's name is left blank.
My gr-grandfather Thomas Kilgour wrote out a family tree back in the 1950's which he gave to one of his grandchildren. In this tree he lists Janet Ness as Margaret's mother and William Ness as her grandfather. He also lists Margaret's siblings as Bill, David and John.
These three brother's names match with the names in the 1861 census.
When Margaret married in December of 1865 she was shown as age 22 which would make her birth about 1843. In 1851 she would have been about 6 or 7 depending on her birth date which I do not know.
So I am wondering if she is the Mary Murphy with the Ness family in 1851 and if the John Purves is the John Ness of 1861. He is right age. I am wondering if Janet first called them by their fathers' surnames and later changed them to Ness???
This is the only explanation I can come up with for why there is no John Ness or Margaret Ness in 1851 and why this Mary and this John would be with Ness family and listed as grandchildren if they are not Janet's children.
Does that make sense to you? Have you come across anything in your research on this family that would explain this?
I have William's death record for 1877.
That is as far as I have gone. On this death record it has parents as Joseph Ness and Margaret Paterson.
You have shown parents of Joseph as being William Ness and Marion Ponton/Punton who married in 1759 North Berwick.
Do you have a birth record for Joseph? Do you know where he was born - Dirleton? North Berwick? or elsewhere?
I appreciate any help you can give me and would be happy to share what little I hae on this family.
Carolyn L.
-
Carolyn,
Thank you so much for that post. It is full of detail, some tallying with my own records, some new.
I shall reply in full shortly when I have a bit more time and have checked my files.
Meantime I have a tree in front of me which has
John b.c 1848, Aberlady (to Janet), Groom/Coachman, sometime at Aberlady Mains Cottage, m. 1874, Salton,(sp?) to Elizabeth Young. I have eight children of theirs listed---tell me if you want details.
William b.c.1850 Flesher(Butcher), m.1873 N. Berwick, Mary Lindores, later manager at Limekilns, Catcraig, Dunbar. Eight children listed!
David b.c.1859 Flesher, m.1880, Aberlady,Douglas Graham (yes this a female name).
I have five offspring just pencilled in----need to check these details.
I shall look into the question of Mary Murphy/Margaret (Kilgour)
Have never been able to find the marriage certificate of William b.1794, d. 1877( my gt,gt,gt,grandfather) and Mary Robertson b. 1789, Aberlady. I suspect they belonged to the United Free Church.
Will give other info. soon.
Thanks again,
MairiD
-
Carolyn,
I have on file, Joseph Ness bapt. 1760, Dirleton, to William Ness, 'taylor' in Sta*? (This is quite difficult to decifer) who married Marion Ponton (also listed on another family certificate as Punton) in 1759 in North Berwick.
I have not been able to identify William's parents. I wish I knew whether he came from Fife or not.
It was interesting to learn of Mary Murphy and John Purves.
Have looked for possible fathers to these two. Outworker's labour, really hard, often meant women were in fields far and wide in the parish, employed when needed, often meeting men who travelled from further parts.
Murphy suggests an Irish connection. There was a Margaret Murphy born c. 1848 in Aberlady to Peter Murphy and Janet ( nee Williams). Peter seems, at present, to have been the only possible candidate for father to Mary.
By 1861, there was a lodger in the village of Aberlady, a James Murphy, an agricultural labourer and pensioner (aged 41!). As he was not noted on the 1851 census it is difficult to count him in.
Purveses seem to have been numerous in E. Lothian. There was a James Purves born c. 1849 in Aberlady to John and Margaret Purves. John was a labourer at nearby Drem. Perhaps John also had a child by Janet and she named him John after his father.
Conjecture will no doubt remain as birth certificates name only Mary and John's mother Janet. Perhaps the Kirk Session Records would reveal some information.
I do think your guess that your Margaret was formerly known as Mary is correct and that John Ness was John Purves on the census list.
In 1861 a Mary M. Ness b.c. 1842 Aberlady, is working as a domestic servant at W. Arniston* (* that looks like the name.) Perhaps the M. stood for Margaret.
At Margaret and James' wedding a witness was Mary Dalgleish. She was probably a cousin as her aunt Margaret, Janet's elder sister, married a Dalgleish.
I was interested she and your gt.,gt. grandfather and their seven children moved to Grantshall, Peebleshire and that James worked as gardener and coachman. Thomas, their eldest, went to Canada I see. That is as far as I have managed to research.
Margaret returned to Edinburgh and died in 1910 as you will know. I hope she had family around to support her. She only survived her mother Janet by nine years.
You are lucky to have a tree in the family which probably records people difficult to identify today.
Can you look at Joseph's certificate (1760) and read the place where his father was working?
MairiD.
-
Mairi,
Thank you for the reply. You must have very good access to E. Lothian records.
The information you have given me on the Murphy and Purves families is great. I really had no
idea of where to look. I am quite convinced that Mary Murphy and Margaret Ness are one and the
same.
For one thing Mary Murphy is in census with Janet Ness, but no Margaret who should be there, so could be the same person. Also it seems likely that Janet would have named her only daughter after her (Janet's) mother who was Mary. So she may have been Margaret Mary or Mary Margaret.
The 1861 census you found for a Mary M. Ness fits in with the age Margaret was when she married James Kilgour in 1865., so she certainly could be the right person. It also fits in with the idea of Mary/Margaret using both those names. I am going to take a look at that census - thank you
On both Margaret Ness' marriage and death records her mother's name is shown as Janet Ness. Margaret Ness is also shown as born Aberlady.
Margaret was married 1865 Aberlady and is shown as a domestic servant. Husband James was a Coachman at Archerfield.
Their first son Thomas (my g-grandfather) was born 1866 on the Earl of Weymms estate - Gosford) I believe it likely he was born at the Old Gosford house rather than the larger estate house. Only makes sense to me if his father was a servant.
You wondered if Margaret (Ness) Kilgour had family around when she died. Yes, she did - on her death record it shows her son Thomas (my g-grandfather) was present at her death. I know many of his siblings were living in the area as well. Margaret's husband James had died in 1905. They are both buried in The Grange cemetery Edinburgh.
I agree that Mary Dalgleish was likely Margaret's cousin. I noticed that on William Ness' death record, Margaret Dalgleish, daughter is listed as Informant- present at time of his death.
You mentioned that birth certificates name only Mary and John's mother as Janet. Did you find their birth records? If so, can you tell me the years. I am going to look for them on scotlandspeople
Along with looking at 1861 census you mentioned, and looking for birth records for Mary Murphy and John Purves I will also look for Joseph Ness' baptism and let you know what the town name looks like to me.
I have James and Margaret (Ness) Kilgour in 1881 census Kirkurd, Peebles, 1891 Kirkurd, Peebles and 1901 Edinburgh so they came to Edinburgh sometime between 1891 and 1901. I know that at least one of their children -a daughter was in Edinburgh as early as 1890 when she married there.
Yes, Thomas came to Canada in 1911 with son William. Two of his sons had come before them.(my grandfather was the first to arrive in 1908, his brother David in 1909) Thomas' wife Jane and their youngest son George, and Jane's daughter Mary followed later in 1911.
Thomas was my g-grandfather and I remember him a little. He died in Vancouver, B.C. 1959, aged 93. He worked as a coachman and gardener when young and as a gardener for most of his later life. He worked right up until about age 91 when he fell and broke his wrists and could no longer work.
He had , over the years, purchased several lots in Vancouver where he did his own home gardening while at the same time still working for several others. He was also a judge for many years for the local garden shows in town. He also started up one of the first local community gardens where people with little land could go and grow their own veggies etc. His wife was also a gardener - I've been told that when they met she was a gardener's helper. She died in 1933. Another interesting thing about Thomas - which I only found out about recently - he spoke Gaelic and would give the "Address to the Haggis" every year on Robby Burns day. I think it likely he was one of very few in Vancouver who spoke Gaelic. I have attached a photo of Thomas - hope it goes through.
Yes, I feel very lucky to have that family tree from Thomas which was written back in the 1950's. Without it , searching would have been much harder. There were some errors in it but it was still a huge help.
I will get back to you as soon as I check through the records mentioned above.
Thank you for all the information.
My husband and I are planning a trip to Scotland - likely next year so I am putting together all the info I can so I can visit all the places where my family was.
Carolyn L.
-
Carolyn,
What a wonderfully informative reply---many thanks. The photo is superb. What a mischievous twinkle in his eyes! He was obviously a character.
This is, again, just a short acknowledgement. Will reply to your queries and information as soon as I can.
Mairi
-
Mairi,
I took a look at scotlandspeople for birth records for Mary/Margaret Murphy and John Purves. I could not find one for Mary/Margaret. The only entry was for Margaret Murphy born to Peter Murphy and Margaret Williams as you mentioned.
I did find entry for John Purves however and you were right about the father: it shows mother as Janet Ness, father as John Purves. It says:
Aberlady births 1848 - Purves - Born Oct. 30th, baptized April 25th John, a natural son to John Purves and Janet Ness. Wit: William and Peter Ness
I wonder what John's wife thought of this???
I also found the birth of Joseph Ness 1760, which you told me of. I also cannot read what the word is after "taylor in"
It looks like Str? or Sta? I tried to enlarge it but that didn't help. It definitely looks like four letters in all. I looked at others on the same page but none seem to have that same place named.
When we get to Scotland I'll try to see the original to see if I can make it out any better.
I am really stuck on Margaret Ness. Why isn't her birth record there under Ness or Murphy? Janet's other children seem to be in the records so why not her. And of course she's the one I really want to find. I am wondering if perhaps the writing in her record was bad and she is indexed under the wrong name - only a possiblity. Scotlandspeople won't let you search just by first names though so can't try that.
Thank you for your help in finding these records.
Yes, my g-grandfather Thomas always had that twinkle in his eye as you saw. That is my favorite photo of him because that is just the way I remember him. I was a child when he died but I do have nice memories of him. He was always smiling and my brothers and sister and I all thought he was just like Santa Claus with his rosy cheeks. I wish I had met my g-grandmother too but she died many years before I was born.
Carolyn L.
-
Carolyn,
Your post is almost identical to what I was planning to say to you. This afternoon I too looked at SP--doing the same searches and coming up, of course, with the same frustrating (and enlightening!) results.
The Kirk Session records for Aberlady just may mention Janet and her baby Margaret/Mary.
It does seem at present as if there is no BC. I have even looked under 'Robertson' in case Janet used her mother's maiden name. That is our brickwall at the moment.
It is difficult for me to go to Register House but I hope to manage one day. Of course you may be there first!
Do look at the Aberlady Conservation Society website, particularly images and publications. There are some very evocative photos. of the village long ago. I can imagine the Nesses there.
(Incidentally I have a list of Nesses in the burial lair record of Aberlady Chuchyard.)
I hope to buy a copy of 'An Aberlady Boyhood' some time.
Have you got your Kilgour family tree? It is very interesting that Thomas spoke Gaelic. Would that be due to his mother?
One of my gt., gt. grandfathers was also a gardener who worked on a variety of estates as well as smaller gardens in several parts of Scotland. I have been 'travelling' around these via the web, finding maps and other information, tracking his growing family and its fortunes (jobs and marriages) and misfortunes (deaths). There were few old photos. of the gardens naturally.
Have planned an appropriate cover (yet to be made) on the garden theme for my file and typed out his story to preface all the records---my tribute to my remarkable ancestor who had a wonderful occupation and many talents, like yours.
Mairi.
-
Carolyn,
(P S)
Perhaps you meant it was Scots that Thomas spoke. The 'Address to A Haggis' was in Scots, not Gaelic.
Mairi.
-
Mairi,
How are you? I was doing some checking and realized I had never gotten back to you after my trip to Scotland last year - we ended up going in May/June last year rather than this year - just worked out that way.
I was not able to get a look at any original records as churches were closed when I was there so could not look up anything in Aberlady.
I visited the Grange cemetery in Edinburgh as well as the Murchiston and did not find my Kilgours in either one.
I did find a couple of Ness burials in Aberlady which may hook up at some point.
I was very lucky and got to see around the grounds of Gosford House where my g-grandfather Thomas Kilgour was born - son of James Kilgour and Margaret Ness. We had stopped there and the gates were closed with no chance of seeing much at all. Just then a fellow drove out of the gates and stopped to ask why we were there. When I explained about my gr-grandfather being born on the estate he said he would give us a 10 minute drive through.
The 10 minutes turned into an hour and a half tour - it was terrific. I explained to him I thought my g-grandfather must have been born in the old Gosford House (which was a small house on the estate) but he just smiled and then explained that as my g-g-grandfather James had worked there as coachman and gardener he would not have lived in the old house but rather above the old stables. The stables are still there so he showed me exactly where they would have lived and where Thomas was born. It was very exciting.
The grounds were very nice and we got to see , along with the stables, the gardens, the other staff buildings etc. We also saw some old architectural pieces that had been recently found - they had been buried, likely by the original builders. The fellow who showed us around is the overseer for the estate and was very helpful.
My only regret is that I didn't ask if I could take a piece of the old architectural bits that had been found. Many were very large and in great condition, others were cracked and not useful but I would love to have had something from there. My own fault for not asking. He did allow us to take all the photos we wanted though which was great. He was very nice to us really.
I think you are right about my g-grandfather speaking Scots - it was my Aunt who said it was Gaelic but she may be wrong.
I have no idea where he learned to speak it. My Aunt had no idea. Another interesting bit - his son, my grandfather spoke fluent French and his son my Dad spoke fluent Spanish so I suppose there was a love of languages within their family. Now I have enough trouble with English!!
I haven't been doing much on my NESS/KILGOUR family lately but am ready to get back to it so will let you know if I come up with anything.
I tried attaching two photos but for some reason it did not work
all for now, Carolyn