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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: andy14 on Tuesday 14 October 08 21:53 BST (UK)
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I'd be grateful for help with the bottom line of this marriage from 1715
thanks
andy
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gave up their names in order to marriage consigned eight pounds Scots <not sure of the last few words>*
*could be 'at their parish' :-\
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thanks gadget
I read it the same but made no sense to me ??? what is this about eight pounds scots
andy
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Scots pounds were of less value that English pounds but both currencies were used.
It was customary to pay for banns so they seemed to have paid 8 pounds Scots.
I'm not sure what the exchange rate was in those days. There must be something on the web.
added
http://www.scan.org.uk/researchrtools/scots_currency.htm
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?423
:D
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That seems awful expensive for proclamations. The one's I've seen were recorded as 2s 6d - late 18th century.
I can't make up my mind about that last word - I though 'parish' too, but can also see 'pounds' again, although neither looks quite like the previous occurrence of the word. :-\
Nell
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Thanks for that
I should hope they where a lot less £8 seems an awful lot of money!!!
please excuse the above outburst it must be my scottish roots showing
:D
andy
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Like you, Nell, I've not come across that much before. It would be interesting to know of their status.
The last word (?parish) doesn't look the same as the one on the first line, does it - can't think of anything elese that looks like it though :-\
Gadget
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Andy - the right margin has 'Consigned pounds' written in it. Does it say anything else?
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Yes I wondered about the words in the column.
The mystery word - definitely begins 'p' and I though it was 'ds' rather than an 'h' at the end because of the way the upward tail of the letter curls back on itself like the 'd' in pounds. But there don't seem to be enough letters in between!
Nell
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It's looking more and more like pounds to me. Could it be used in a different way meaning payment or poundage - thus eight pounds Scots as their pounds (payment) :-\
Added - I've come across couples being found guilty of an irregular marriage and being fined (3 Scots pounds in 1689) and then married in C of S. Could it be a knd of fine :-\
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I've just reviewed the original on sp again. On the left side are 2 columns that haven't come over on the crop one is headed discharge and the other charge. no writting in these columns but a mark in the charge colum. the column on the right is headed discharge. it says william miller consigns and pounds on 3 lines. On SP there is another record of their marriage this one is dated 17/11/1715 the other the 2/12/1715. and simply says names given up for marriage.
as to their status I'm working on that I think william is a william miller born 17/11/1696 in kirkcaldy son of john miller and jannet anderson. john miller I suspect was a ship master. and williams son who I've been following is a ship master, he was 5th son. to the william who's cert we're looking at. It appears John the father left a will, yet to be explored.
andy
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Could the "consigned eight pounds Scots to their parrish" be some sort of marriage bond, or surety? If they were married, maybe they got their money back, but forfeited it if they changed their minds?
Gene-ee-us
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I think that Gene-ee-us is right in that the eight pound Scots was probably a marriage bond. They would get it back if their first child was born nine months or later from the date of the marriage. (The local midwife would be asked for an opinion if they said the child was premature) If it turned out that the child had been conceived before marriage, the money would be forfeited as the usual monetary penalty for ante-nuptial fornication.
jessden
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I read somewhere (can't remember where) that a Scots pound was equal to an English shilling, therefore 1/20th value.
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I have read that the English pound was worth about 12 Scots pounds--still considerably lower. As today, though, whatever the exchange rate, I suppose the comparison would only have concerned people doing business outside Scotland, or an upper-class person with ties to England. For an ordinary Scot, a Scots pound would have been worth a pound. Eight pounds was a lot of money in a time when that was several months' wages for a male servant. These folks were apparently not your average farm labourers if they could lay down that kind of cash.
I am very curious about this eight pounds. It seems a lot for a marriage fee or a church fine, or even a bond. Is it possible that William was new to the parish and that he had to give a bond to show that he was not going to flee before the wedding--possibly leaving a woman and child to be supported by the parish?
Are there other instances of this kind of "consignment" on this page that might give a clue to its purpose? I have seen a number of Scots marriage registers, including fines for "irregular" marriages, but I haven't seen any amounts this big.
Gene-ee-us
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I did find the 3 Scots pounds in 1689 - fine for irregular marriage plus 'regular' marriage. (See above)
Given he was a mariner (ship master), it might well be that there was a worry that he might sail away :-\
Gadget
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Hi andy14,
could the last bit be "as their pledge". That would make sense if it was indeed a bond of some kind.
Anne
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The record for this sort of thing would normally appear in the Kirk Session records rather than the Marriage Register for parish concerned although sometimes information does get into the wrong set of records. The information that we were given here relates to 1715 - at this time church discipline was being strictly applied in Scotland. If a couple were found to be guilty of fornication they would be punished - perhaps by a public appearance in church and/or a monetary penalty. The couple would not escape such penalties by getting married. If it was suspected that this couple had offended but it could not be proved beyond doubt, the eight pounds would be retained until it was clear that the first child had been conceived after marriage. If so they would get it back. If not then the money would usually go into the fund for helping the poor of the parish.
jessden
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I wonder if this is court session material, as i mentioned in one of the earlier posts I have a second more traditional entry in the parish records for 2/12/1715. where as this record is 17/11/175. possibly representing the first reading of the banns. As to whetther local it does appear that william and his parents came from up the coast at kirkcaldy rather than inverkeithing where the marriage took place. approx 10 miles or so. Therefore I suspect that it was some kind of bond. however I can't see a record recorded of it being repaid after the marriage, or do people think it might not be repaid until 9months post marrige. Either way it still seems a large amount of money for the parish to levy.
andy