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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: marynunn on Sunday 12 October 08 15:06 BST (UK)

Title: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Sunday 12 October 08 15:06 BST (UK)
Hi, I have my great great grandfathers marriage cert showing him marrying in 1869, his father was listed as George Bell (deceased). I believe that he was born in the dundee area but so far have not found out anything more. David was a seaman/mariner and settled in South Shields when he married an Elizabeth Jane Jennings, does anyone know how I can find more details on his birth and his ancestry, thanks Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 12 October 08 15:14 BST (UK)
Hi  :)

The Scotlands People site is showing only one David Bell baptism with a father George around that time:

7 August 1845 David Bell. Parents George Bell and Marion Gray, Anstruther Wester, Fife

It's a bit further south than Dundee - on the Firth of Forth rather than the Tay :

http://scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-fife.htm

This might not be him as only Church of Scotland baptisms are recorded on SP

Have you checked the 1851 census for him?  I'll look if you don't have access


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Sunday 12 October 08 15:27 BST (UK)
Thank you for that, I have tried 1851 census on Genes Reunited but it didn't come up with any responses, I need to find his birth to find out the rest of the tree, thanks for your help regards Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 12 October 08 15:30 BST (UK)
Hi

Here's the family in 1851

I'm having trouble reading their birth places so attach a snip to see if others can work them out:

1851

Brae Head, Kilrenny, Fife
438 ED 1 P 12

George Bell , 61, Carter, b. Grange
Mary, 51,
Helen, 19, Housework
Robert, 17, shoemaker's apprentice
Betsy, 15
Thomas, 11, scholar
David, 5, scholar b. West Anstruther
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Sunday 12 October 08 15:40 BST (UK)
Thanks for your help I found him in the 1881 cencus in South Shields and it gives place of  birth Scotland, My Mum seems sure it was Dundee, don't have any further info which is making it harder to find anything else out, I appreciate your help, regards Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 12 October 08 17:31 BST (UK)
Hi Mary  :)

He is the only one with a father Geroge showing on the 1851 census  that I can find.

Did it give any occupation for his father on his marriage cert. or was he just 'deceased' ?

Who were the witnesses on the marriage cert?

Any clues from his children's names - e.g. were their children named George and Mary/Marion?


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Sunday 12 October 08 23:10 BST (UK)
The 1841 census, not from Scotland's People, has

George Bell, Mill Master, 50. born 1791, Fife, at Pekie Mill (Civil parish St. Leonards), Fife
Mary, his wife, 40, and the rest of the family are given as born in"Fife", although the 1851census has her as born in "Lundree"
Margaret 8
Janet 15
George junior 13
James 11
Helen 8
Robert 6
Betsy 5
Thomas 2

The National Library of Scotland maps have a "Pikie" and a "Peikie", (but no mill) - however, googling using
"Peikie" and "Fife" brings up a "Full text of Ecclesiastical records; selection of the minutes" which has this -

The millars of Peikie, Parke, Kenlie, and Kingfbarne mylnes, appointed to be fummoned to compeir befor the Prefbyterie the nixt day, for ther breke of the Lords day, by making ther mylnes to goe vpon it.

(The millers later appear, are contrite, and their censure is referred to the several kirk sessions where they dwell!)

Breaky
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 12 October 08 23:27 BST (UK)
Hi Breaky

It looks like the same family that I found on the 1851 - see above   :D

I note that this David Bell is a baker (apprentice) in Kilrenny  on the 1861 but is not on either the 1871 or 1891 censuses in Scotland.

Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Monday 13 October 08 10:20 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget, the marriage cert shows George Bell deceased no occupation, witnesses were William Mcglashan and Mary Ann Mcglashan. David Bell we don't know if he had any siblings as we have not been able to find out any further info, not even a birth certificate. He had children called Mary Ann, George, Richard and Jane Elizabeth (named after his wife?

I spoke to my mum last night and she is sure he was from Dundee and believes he was from a large family but no one had ever been in contact. She also believes that they weren't catholics, if that gives any extra info. I have been on scotslandspeople sight and not found out anything.

I appreciate your help, regards Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 10:30 BST (UK)
Helllo again Mary

Have you got him on any other censuses besided the 1881 or is it a case of him being at sea? I have him on the 1881 but  I'm having trouble finding him on the 1871 and 1891.


Gadget

Added - I'm wondering if the Lundrie/Lundree, given as Mary's birthplace on the 1851 could be Lundie which is just to the NW of Dundee  :-\
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Monday 13 October 08 10:51 BST (UK)
Hi Breaky, could be that this is the family as the mother possibly came from Dundee, there were grandchildren born in 1900's with names George, mary, Ellen, John, David, Joseph,Henrietta, Richard, Harry,Ernie and Doris all in South Shields, were David settled, he was in the merchant navy and was at sea a lot,

Hi Gadget, I only have him in the 1881 cencus, he was dead in 1880 when his son Richard got married, possibly was at sea in 1871, he married his wife Elizabeth jane Jennings in 1869, but still can't find him on the cencus.
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 10:56 BST (UK)
Hi again Mary

I really do think that the family that I found on the1851 and Breaky has found on the 1841 are the best bet. They also fit with the birth that I found for David in 1845. Here they are in 1861:

The George and Mary Bell that we've found are still in Cellardyke,  Kilrenny on the 1861 (I've already refered to David in Kilrenny on the 1861)

Braehead, Cellardyke
438 ED

George Bell, 60, carter
Mary, 51
Helen, 27, Ag outdoor worker
Betsey, 24, Ag outdoor worker
Thomas, 21, cooper

all down as  b. St Andrews

I think George and Mary were economical with their ages!


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Monday 13 October 08 11:27 BST (UK)
Hi Mary and Gadget,

I can find two David Bells, both on "Vessels"  on the 1871 census.  Both are born Dundee in 1839, unfortunately - though perhaps appearing older and more experienced was a good thing.
(The Scottish 1871 is for a ship with a large crew at Brodick, county of Bute with "ED: Humber"(?) and the English 1871 is for a  ship with a crew of only 4 but is at "Humber, Northumberland" but also names the vessel as "Humber")

Breaky
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 11:46 BST (UK)
Have you come across anything other than my Baker's apprentice on the 1861 yet, Breaky  :-\

Think the Northumberland one in 1871 looks the most promising - have you got the ref?

Took some photos yesterday - looking over from North Shields to South Shields  :D



Gadget

PS  - Mary what age was he on his marriage cert?
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 12:05 BST (UK)
Found him on the 1871 - it does say that he' married so it's a very good possible. Aged 32.

Nearest one that fits with that age b. Dundee - 12 June 1839  Parents - Thomas Bell and Helen Thornton.

The Westruther one is still the only one with a father George  :-\

Nothing so far on the 1861 in Scotland  that looks promising for him


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Monday 13 October 08 12:12 BST (UK)
The ref is

Class RG10   Piece 5111   Folio 133  

(Haven't done this before  - do you need the whole screed?)

but have just found that the IGI does have a David born 1839 at Dundee -  to Thomas Bell and Helen Thornton  - I should have checked that first, sorry.

I'll try to looking in the 1861 census next.

Breaky

Oops! crossed replies.
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 12:16 BST (UK)
Hi Breaky - I've just added to my last message.

The refs for Eng & Wales censuses are the RG number - Piece Folio and page. the GSU number is an admin ref which is not needed  :)

Can't find anything at all thatlooks promising in 1861 Eng/Wales or Scotland apart from the baker  :(

Got to go off line no.

Good luck with the searching!
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Monday 13 October 08 12:55 BST (UK)
Hi Both

Think I've found the David Bell that Breaky found on the 1871 in 1881:

19, West Wynd, St Peter, Dundee
282/1 ED 11 Page 9

David Bell, 41, seaman
Elisabeth, 37, b. Ireland
Henry, 17, millworker
David, 13, millworker
Jane, 9
Elisabeth, 7
Frank, 5
Agness, 3
Mary, 6 months

All except Elisabeth b. Dundee

so - back to the drawing board  :-\


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Monday 13 October 08 16:42 BST (UK)
Hi Mary and Gadget

No luck with 1861 census search either, I'm afraid.  Enjoyed the search, though!

Breaky
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Tuesday 14 October 08 20:33 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget, elizabeth Bell was born in South Shields, I believe that after their marriage in 1869 that they lived there, as their son Richard was born in 1881 and they lived at 2 north st, westoe. south shields, 1881 cencus I have them living at 26 North st, westoe, south shields, daughter Mary Ann aged 10 and son George aged 8, Richard was born in the same year.

1881 cencus shows him as age 37 which would have meant he was born 1843-1845 place of birth was Scotland, My mum is adamant that it was Dundee.

Can't locate him from birth until 1881, regards mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 14 October 08 20:39 BST (UK)
Hi Mary

Think you misunderstood - I was showing that the David Bell that Breaky found in the 1871 on 'Shipping' was unlikely to be the correct one as the one that she found was with a family in Dundee  in 1881 whereas yours was in Shields!

If your Mother is adamant that he was born in Dundee then I think it's as far as we can go. The only one that seems to fit with a father called George was the one b. West Anstruther.

Have you thought that he could have moved to Dundee after 1861  and started his maritime career there rather than being born there?


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Wednesday 15 October 08 07:54 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget, the info available seems to back up your theory, I will chat with her tonight and try to find out something else that might confirm this. I will ask her about Fife and West Anstruthers. I think the family you found could be the right one as they were George and Marion, and David went on to have a George and Mary. Thank you for your time. Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Wednesday 15 October 08 20:36 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget and Breaky, the marriage cert just says full age which is so annoying, I am sure one of the david Bells on the boats must be him, I am off on holiday tomorrow for 15 days, so will contact you when I get back, regards Mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 15 October 08 21:03 BST (UK)
Hi Mary

If he was the one on the boat in 1871 then there are problems  :-\

Have a nice holiday  :)


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: marynunn on Wednesday 15 October 08 22:46 BST (UK)
Why, did he die? My David had a child in 1882 so it wouldn't have been him?, regards mary
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 15 October 08 22:52 BST (UK)
Mary ~

See my reply #17

He was with a wife and children in Dundee in 1881, whereas yours was in Shields.

The 2 that Breaky found on the 1871 were the same person - one was entered as a 'Shipping' entry in Scotland (I think Bute was misread. It's not mentioned on the image) and one was entered in Northumberland. This person was the same one as the 1881 entry for Dundee (father Thomas)


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Thursday 16 October 08 14:21 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget and Mary,

Suppose you, too, enjoy the "what were they doing?" aspect of familly history - What was the ship carrying? Had they unloaded the cargo from Scotland?  Were the four men left on board waiting for a new crew? - perhaps David stayed on board to save his wages for his family...and so on.

Breaky
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 16 October 08 14:52 BST (UK)
Hi Breaky

I believe that this David's father was either a Thomas Bell. He was aged 32 - i.e. b. circa 1839. This fits with the David living at home with Thomas in Dundee on the 1841 and 1851.there is also one with father Henry.  It was a Scottish boat in Northumberland waters. There was just one boat which was recorded in the census twice. I've looked at the images. David is still living in Dundee with his family in later census.

There is no other David b. Dundee in any of the censuses that fits the age range. The only one with a father called George was b. West Anstruther.

And the one b.Anstruther looks as if he's in London in the 1881:
RG11/2 F 98  P 8


Gadget
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Thursday 16 October 08 21:44 BST (UK)
Hi Gadget,

I've found the family at Paddington on the 1881 census, using the ref you gave  - feel confident about using refs now, many thanks.

Breaky
Title: Re: David Bell 1846
Post by: marynunn on Wednesday 23 March 11 19:21 GMT (UK)
Turns out he died at sea in december 1885, records state he was born in Dundee, and lived in South Shields, glad to have found out what happened to him, how can I find out which boat/vessel he was on and where he was when he died
Title: Re: David Bell 1844
Post by: breaky on Wednesday 23 March 11 23:27 GMT (UK)
The Minor records cert. on Scotlands People has the ship's name as the "Burswell" - (am sending  you a pm).