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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Clare A Ross on Saturday 11 October 08 19:17 BST (UK)
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:) Hi
I have been researching my fathers side of the family and my surname, which is Ross on my birth certificate.
I have just discovered that my Great Grandfathers surname, was not Ross, he was born and registered as Thomas McDill, but when he had a child (illegitimate, my grandfather) the name put on the birth certificate was Ross, his mothers husbands surname, not the surname of the father whoi was Thomas McDill.
So my blood line is actually McDill, not Ross as I had thought and so I wondered what that means with regards m surname, which was assumed mistakenly, for social reasons at a point in history, am I a McDill or a Ross, because I am not sure whether if the fathers actual surname is not put on the birth certificate , then does that make it invalid?
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:) Hi
I have been researching my fathers side of the family and my surname, which is Ross on my birth certificate.
but when he had a child (illegitimate, my grandfather) the name put on the birth certificate was Ross, his mothers husbands surname, not the surname of the father who was Thomas McDill.
Hi Clare, welcome to RootsChat :)
How do you know that it was his illegitimate child? What was the date?
The Registration Act of 1875 states:
"The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants"
Therefore a man could only be named as the father of an illegitimate child on the birth certificate if he consented and was also present when the birth was registered.
Stan
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Clare, Welcome to rootschat.
Yes, Stan's question is the starting point... so?
charlotte
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The legal presumption is that a child born to a married woman is a child of her husband, even if that is not actually the case.
Stan
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Hi,
I went to Register House in Scotland and found a birth certificate that makes me unclear about my actual surname.
You see my Great Grandfather, was commonly known as Thomas McDill Ross (1884-1960), his son my grandfather was also a Thomas McDill Ross(1911-1949) and his son, my father Barry McDill Ross. I am named Clare Ross.
But when I found the birth certificate of my Great Grandfather (1884-1960), he is registered at birth as being the illegitimate son of Thomas McDill (1849-1922) and Annie Ross (widow of John Ross who is not the father and who died four years previously). It actually states those things on the birth certificate and his name on his birth certificate is Thomas McDill, the same as his father.
It seems that my Great Grandfathers widowed mother Annie Ross 1849-1915 (Ms Gallagher), had him in 1884 with a different father than her other children, who were legitimate Rosses, after John Ross (1849-1880) had died. His father is named on his birth certificate as Thomas McDill, from Ayrshire, Scotland. I suppose that if he lived with his mother and her Ross children, he would have assumed the name Ross, for social reasons. But in fact he was a McDill, as per his birth certificate.
When my great grandfather Thomas McDill (Ross)(1884-1960) himself met a woman and had a child ,on his childs birth certificate he wrote his name as Thomas Ross, even though his name was really McDill. So what has happened is that he put the incorrect surname on the birth certificate of my grandfather, maybe because he didnt want anyone to know he was illegitimate and wanted to be known as a legitimate Ross, whatever reason, it wasnt his real name, it was his mothers married name, but not his fathers given name, or the name on his birth certificate. He just assumed the name and put it on his sons birth certificate and that is where the mixup has occured and why I am not sure what my name is.
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I did not know it was Scotland. As you see I state My answers only refer to England and Wales
Stan
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Hi, yes thanks anyway though.
I suppose I need to find what the law in Scotland is with regards to someone putting a false name on their sons birth certificate. There is the possibility of course that his mother never told him who his father was, and that he always assumed he was a Ross, and never saw his own birth certificate and so honestly by mistake put his name as Thomas Ross, instead of Thomas McDill on his sons birth certificate.
If anyone out there knows where that leaves his descendants and their names, I would be very interested to find out. It is a mistake on a birth certificate essentially, whether intentional or unintentional and so I guess I need to find out what the law in Scotland is with regards such a mistaken identity.
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As far as the legal position is concerned you can call your self whatever you like as long as there is no fraud involved. Thus a person who has always called themselves Ross is a Ross and someone who has always called themselves McDill is a Mc Dill.
David
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Clare - your surname is that which is accepted by the Registrar of Births. He is not required to look into your ancestry, nor should he, Therefore, you are a Ross.
If you want to become a McDill you have several legal ways of changing your name. They may be different in Scotland to those that apply in England.
I doubt that anyone can say for certain who exactly their gggrandfather was. We can only know what is stated on certificates.
We have some odd stories in my own lines going back 3 or 4 generations.
Enjoy Rootschat.
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Dont get me wrong, I am not complaining of negligence on the part of the registrar or anything of the kind. It is merely an interest into what people may do in a situation like this, when they discover in their recent history a provable error in the records. I would think there may be some precedent set for such a situation, where records are amended, simply to keep the records straight. I wouldnt change my name by deed poll or anything, but wondered more about correcting such an error in records .
As currently as things stand, Thomas McDill was born and recorded and then at his death was recorded as Thomas Ross, by mistake because noone knew the truth. So that leaves a gap in the continuity of the records, which I wondered if that gets amended with some note, for future generations to be able to see what happened (as I only stumbled upon it by chance and curioisity).
I wouldnt change my name by deed poll, it is enough for me to know my genetic history, and be able to find relatives I never knew I had this way, but like I say, I do wonder what the precedent is when a mistake in a record shows up that is provable beyond doubt, whether it gets amended in retrospect by the registrar.
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The poinnt that I was trying to make is that there was no legal error. It doesn't matter what your birth certificate says if you were known as Ross when you died then that is the correct thing to have on your death certificate. The only reason for deed poll and other semi-official methods of changing a name is to sort out any legal complications which might arise.
David
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It just seems odd to me that a man then can use any name on his childrens birth certificate. I suppose like you say, it only effects legal obligations, and as a baby doesnt have any so early on, it doesnt matter in that respect, but never the less, it does not seem right somehow that a man (or woman) can use any name they choose to give on such an important document.
So I could have child and on his birth certificate put my name as his mother as Clare Peanuthead, without changing my name to Clare Peanuthead by deed poll and he would go through life with the surname peanuthead, just because thats what I felt like calling myself that day.
I understand we can name a child any first name, but the surname surely is different, there must be a reason that we carry the paternal lines name and if we were not legally required to do so, then people would be inventing new surnames for their children all the time and there would be no continuity of family name at all.
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Here is one situation where it could have an impact.
Say for example Thomas McDill senior had a huge estate that he had left in his will to all his biological greatgrandchildren when they came of age. :D
That would mean that I legally had a claim to part of this huge estate and should be living in a castle in the Highlands, but due to the mistake I discovered in the records I would never be recognised as his great grandchild and totally miss out. :'(
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Yet the child does not have to carry the stated parents' surname.
Your offspring could be named Strawberry Jellybean, even in the parental surnames were Peanuthead and Stoopid.
Pauline
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Scotland's People website explains why there might be different surname on a certificate, etc.:
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/faqs/questions/index.aspx?179
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Current position regarding changing names in Scotland:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/regscot/change-of-name.html
Also :
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/regscot/about-registration-in-scotland.html#corr
Gadget
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If your ancestor as a child was named Thomas McDill but was brought up by his mother as a member of the Ross family and adopted that name then his use and reputation under that name made it his name. As has been pointed out prior to 1930 there was no formal adoption law in Scotland and these informal renamings must have happened on quite a number of occasions.
As has also been pointed out Scots Law in a similar fashion to English Law allows a person to change the name that they are known by on an informal basis without going to court although for official purposes that process is more advisable.
However if in the example quoted regarding Clare Peanut - if that was the name given the registrar would record it and would also record your original name so that the entry would read Clare Ross also known as Clare Peanut.
A better example of this is in the use of the maiden surname - under Scots Law a woman does not change her name to her husbands upon marriage but simply adopts the name for her use (if she wants to) on all legal documents she would still be known primarily by her maiden surname with her married name "tagged" on afterwards e.g. Clare Ross or Peanut
As regards inheritance - Scots law always differed from English law in that illegitimacy would not necessarily have been considered a barrier to inheritance although proving that vital link would always have been difficult until the use of DNA.
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I went to Register House in Scotland and found a birth certificate that makes me unclear about my actual surname.
You see my Great Grandfather, was commonly known as Thomas McDill Ross (1884-1960), his son my grandfather was also a Thomas McDill Ross(1911-1949) and his son, my father Barry McDill Ross. I am named Clare Ross.
But when I found the birth certificate of my Great Grandfather (1884-1960), he is registered at birth as being the illegitimate son of Thomas McDill (1849-1922) and Annie Ross (widow of John Ross who is not the father and who died four years previously). It actually states those things on the birth certificate and his name on his birth certificate is Thomas McDill, the same as his father.
I must be missing the point you are trying to make.
You state that your great grandfather was "commonly" know as Thomas McDill Ross which makes us believe that was the name he always used. If that was the case then there was no mistake made when he registed that name as the father of his son.
If you are looking at genealogy, then Thomas McDill Ross was registered as Thomas McDill on his birth certificate which also states that Thomas McDill from Scotland was his father. So McDill would be the blood line that Thomas McDill Ross was part of for purposes of genealogy.
I don't quite understand why you would feel you have the wrong last name except for the purposes of tracing your ancestors.
dollylee
*modified when I realized I had further confused things by making him a McGill ;)
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I'm not sure where the problem is either.
You seem to have the right line.
My grandfather was adopted and his legally used name was REDSULL however his biological father was a DEVOS and his biological mother was a JEFFREY.
Because I have this info I am able to follow the bloodline. But this didn't make my mother or her sibs a DEVOS.
I also have a David, who was born before his parents married and at various times was a David JARMAN (his biological father's name) or a David Jarman CLARK (his mother's maiden name).
These are just 2 examples, there's more in my tree that's for sure and I bet a lot of people have plenty more too.
In your case Thomas McDILL was (very helpfully) given the surname of his biological father but used (quite legally) the name of his mother and siblings ROSS and kept the McDILL as a middle name, even passing it on through generations.
So you know that until that point you are a ROSS and from that point back on the fathers side you can choose to look for the name McDILL.
I love Scotland for their records, so much info can be found in them.
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Say for example Thomas McDill senior had a huge estate that he had left in his will to all his biological greatgrandchildren when they came of age. :D
That would mean that I legally had a claim to part of this huge estate and should be living in a castle in the Highlands, but due to the mistake I discovered in the records I would never be recognised as his great grandchild and totally miss out. :'(
And that is why properly drawn up wills name all beneficiaries, including children. Thomas McDill senior would probably not be able to name his great-grandchildren, so they would be 'the issue of his children, x y and z, and of any of their children. And would be protected by the name on the birth certificate.
Similarly any inheritance to do with the name Ross is protected by the name of the mother.
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I have a Charles Fletcher in my direct line , who in the census
is shown as Charles Ashton along with his wife and children
later they reclaim the Fletcher name.
I think the confusion lies with Charles who are brought up by his
maternal Grandparents "The Ashtons" as a child - he is listed
on the census at this point as Charles Fletcher - Grandson.
When he leaves his Grandparents house he must presume that
his parents were unmarried when he was born - incorrectly -
and I presume he found out later in life after marriage that in fact
they were married and after a brief spell of being known as
Charles Ashton resumes his names as Charles Fletcher along
with his son Joseph Fletcher ( my direct ancestor)
Jinks
The birth of Charles was pre registration and I have found the
baptism and marriage via parish registers
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Clare
I too agree that there is not an error in the records - the Registrar recorded how the birth was registered. So there is nothing to be changed. And, as others have explained, you do not have the wrong surname.
I have several people in my tree who knowingly or unknowingly gave the "wrong" surnames in B, M & D certificates. It is all part of the fun for me in unravelling who did what and to whom...
I call myself a family historian, rather than a genealogist, as I am interested in the family I came from in the past 200 years, and what they did, rather than what my bloodline is. But there again, my lot all have names which are common, and belonged to the lower orders, so I doubt if I could follow my bloodline very far.
But other people care a good deal about their genetic origins, and I guess they are genealogists.
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Hello Clare
My last name is Dill. My paper trail ends in Ireland during the 1600's. I believe that the Dill were originally from SW Scotland and that their name was originally McDill. I am trying to find genetic evidence to determine if I am related to the McDill. Have you considered having your y-dna tested. I recommend http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx
larc