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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Gigi on Monday 06 October 08 07:16 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have been reserching the Norman family from Scotland and have unearthed some curious data and need advice from you experts!!
I have the family in question in the 1881 & 1871 (cannot find them in 1861) as follows:
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In 1871 the family name was NEVILLE and not NORMAN. At first I thought it was just transcription errors but when I tried to locate births on Scotlandspeople I had trouble finding them. A search for Marjory b1870 using the name NEVILLE came up with:
Marjory Neville born July 15 1870 At Doune Kilmadock
Father John Neville Shoemaker
Mother Helen Neville m.s. Thomson
(Their marriage was 31 December 1859 at Coatbridge)
Certificate signed by Helen Neville - her mark
IGI have also:
Helen Nevil, father John Nevil, mother Helen Thompson 19 Oct 1874
Anne Neville, father John Neville, mother Helen Thomson 12 Jan 1868
John Nevil, father John Nevil, mother Helen Thomson 31 Jul 1872
I have the marriage cert for the son Francis Norman in 1883, Stirling:
Father John Norman, ???maker journeyman deceased
Mother Helen Norman ms Thomson
What I cannot figure out is why the family started off as NEVILLE and ended up as NORMAN.
Help please!!
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Just more questions than answers unfortunately :-\ Can't see any marriage entry for Helen Thomson to a John Nelville (and variants) or Norman anywhere. Also can't see the birth entries for daughters Margaret born c. 1860 and Elizabeth born c. 1862 in Coatbridge.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for your reply.
I too have not found their marriage in Coatbridge or any birth details there. I looked for John Norman/Neville's death cert on SP but the most likely one I downloaded wasn't him unfortunately!!
My census info 1881 & 1871 has been removed from my message. I have retyped it in my own hand:
1881: In Stirling, Bow Street
William Cameron 10 lodger, born Doune, Perthshire
Annie Norman 13 d, born Doune
Ellen Norman age 38 born Coatridge, servant
Francis Norman 16 son, born Ireland, labourer
John Norman 3 son, b Doune
Maggie Norman 20 d, born Coatbridge, carpet factory
Mrs. Williams 22 daughter, born Doune, domestic servant
Maggie Williams 2 d, born Stirling
Maryann Williams 2 Mo d, born Stirling
1871: In Kilmadock, Chapel Street
Annie Neville 3 d, born Kilmadock, Perth
Elizabeth Neville 9 d, born Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Ellen Neville age 32 born Coatridge Lanark, dressmaker
Frances Neville 7 son, born Ireland
John Neville 40 head, born Ireland, shoemaker
Margaret Neville 11 d, born Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Marjory Neville 8 Mo born Kilmadock, Perth
Gillian
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Have you looked at Helen's DC to see what info it contains?
Monica
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Hi,
Yes, Helen's Death Cert contains the following:
Helen McClaren widow of "Thomas" Norman shoemaker (2) Thomas Campbell (3) Daniel McClaren Blacksmith journeyman died 30/12/1927 8 Baynes Street Stirling aged 83 yrs, Father Thomas Thomson Pit Sinker deceased, Mother Margaret Thomson ms Carruthers deceased. The death was registered by her daughter Lizzie Buchanan of 14 Buice Street Stirling.
Helen's first husband was John not Thomas!!
Gillian
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Gillian
I'm not surprised you are confused. Cannot connect to any of the info you have with anything else of relevance :-\
There is no marriage showing between 1855-65 between a John and Helen (searching for *El*en) Thomson with a surname for John anything like Neville or Norman.
The births of Margaret and Elizabeth I also cannot find in Lanarkshire, even assuming mother was unmarried and they were registered under Thomson.
I also cannot find a Margaret born circa 1860 in the 1861 census with any of the names we have.
I am beginning to think that Helen and John were not actually married. Have you seen any of the other children's birth regs. that you have found to see what date of marriage they show other than the 1859 Coatbridge one? That birth of Francis in Ireland also doesn't make sense. It could be that John came over from Ireland, with a son Francis post 1863/4 and took up with Helen (pure conjecture on my part ::)).
Like you, I also cannot find a death for John which you would think would be between 1878-81 given the son John aged 3 that shows in 1881.
Sorry it's such an unhelpful post - I just can't find anything that helps :'(
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for trying!! You have arrived at the same door as me!! I will try another search on SP using all names!! I cannot work out where the name Neville comes from. Why invent a name if they were not married? Why not just use the father's name Norman!! >:(
Tricky one this!!
Gillian
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That's assuming he was Norman to start with ::) ;D
Monica
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Yes I know what you mean! I did try looking for him in Ireland but not knowing which county posed a bit of a problem! Needless to say I didn't find him!!!
G
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Hi,
I have found the death cert of Francis Norman, the son of John Norman. This confirms that John the father was a shoemaker. This was illegible on Francis' marriage cert. The occupation shoemaker was entered onto the 1871 census when the family were Nevilles, confirming that the Normans & Nevilles were the same family.
Francis Norman's death cert Milton Glasgow states:
Died 15/02/1904 aged 39yrs, Wife: Jessie Dobson, Father: John Norman shoemaker journeyman deceased, Mother: Ellen McClaren previously Campbell formally Norman ms Thomson. The death was registered by daughter Bella Norman.
However still don't know why the Nevilles became the Normans!!
Gillian
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Hi Gigi,
I know it has been some time since you posted but I find myself also researching this family (Francis NORMAN) is my 3 great-grandfather. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused!
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I agree that they possibly never married it could be John Thomas NEVILLE (* MODIFIED)with 1 name he used officially & one that he was known by
Depends who fills in the forms
I'm wondering if he died before the birth of some of the children who were actually;John NORMAN's children and if ELLEN & her older children took on the name of their step father ...the man she was living with ...
I had a similar case ..
Her other surnames could be if she was adopted or her mother remarried during her childhood .
In my case 1 unmarried ancestor gave the surname of her "married " lover to her child but hedged her bets and gave him middle name of the man she eventually married .
DNA has proved that the married man was the father of her child !
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Hi,
Yes I am no further forward with this conundrum! I had put aside my Scottish research but this has given me the urge to go through it all again!
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Oops I answered too quickly and got the scenario wrong
William modify the last post .
If John NORMAN was escaping from the law in Ireland it would make sense to change names the more random the better .
Can you find any records in Ireland of the children's baptism or school attendance.
I didn't understand what you said about the wife of
Does it indicate that she had 2 previous husband's anywhere or could formerly be a birthday name and her mother's changing surname
The same woman who gave 2 family.names to her birth child
Lived with her mother and changed her own surname and her children's in different census .the 2 other children were registered under birth fathers surname but in census the surnames were very haphazard ...their own their mother's or their step grandfathers
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Hi,
I have just had a look at my notes. It will take me a while to get up to speed on this family!
According to the census data:
1881 living in Stirling b1865 in Ireland unmar, with mother Ellen & family. (his other siblings all born in Scotland ???)
In 1891 living in Stirling b1863 Ireland marr to Jessie (Dobson).
In 1901 living in Glasgow b 1863 Doune Perth!!?? with wife & children.
There may be a question mark about his place of birth!!
I will have to did a bit deeper and see if I can find any more references to his place of birth. I have no data fom Irish sources.
G
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I have now had a long look at my notes and have spent HOURS on Ancestry, FindMyPast & Scotland's people searching!!
I have been looking at the children of John Neville/Norman & Ellen/Helen Thomson/Thompson/Thomison. Spelling of names wasn't a big thing then!!
I have found in births:
Anne Neville | Thomson | F | 1868 | Kilmadock
Marjory Neville | Thomson | F | 1868 | Kilmadock (died 1871 Kilmadock)
John Nevil | Thomson | M | 1872 Kilmadock
Helen | Nevil | Thompson | F | 1784 Kilmadock (died 1877 Kilmadock).
In the 1881 there is another daughter the mysterious Mrs William & her 2 daughters Maryann & Maggie Williams.
In 1891 census there is
Mary Williams widow b1861 Doune
Margaret 11 born Stirling
Mary Ann 10 born Stirling
John 8 born Stirling.
I have found Mary Ann Williams' birth. It would appear that her mother Mary (the mysterious Mrs Williams) was born before her parents marriage if they did marry!!
Mary Ann Williams | Thompson | F | 1880 6 Dysart
None of the above helps with the Nevile/Norman question but the more data we have, the better, we can understand the family.
Best regards
Gigi
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The MRS Williams was a red herring. I have now been able to see the original image and she is a boarder and not a daughter as was transcribed by Ancestry!!!
Anyway I have some interesting data from the Newspapers on FindMyPast.
Francis Naville alias Norman was guilty of Culpable Homicide and spent 12 months in prison. He was 15 years old at the time. The info is also available on Scottishindexes.com.
The trial was 24 Mar 1880 and he is described as Francis Navile alias Norman son of John Navile shoemaker.
In the Perthshire adveriser 11 Mar 1880, he is described as Francis Navile or Norman. It would seem the the family changed their surname before his trial, so the hiding of their identity doesn't seem to be the reason for the change!!
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The MRS Williams was a red herring. I have now been able to see the original image and she is a boarder and not a daughter as was transcribed by Ancestry!!!
Now why am I not in the least surprised that Ancestry got it wrong?
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I know, very annoying!! >:(