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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 14:19 BST (UK)

Title: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 14:19 BST (UK)
My Great Grand-Mother was born Elizabeth Holland in 1905 in Rochdale, and there my family tree stops, it is looking rather lop-sided, I am told that she was brought up by her husband parents as she served in their house but no one in my entire family can tell me the name of her parents, all I know is that they were from some where in Lancashire and were Travellers, any help on this matter would feed my addiction for information about my roots and make me very happy indeed.
with great hope and faith jo x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 14:30 BST (UK)
Hi Jo

Welcome to Rootschat!! :D

I think the first thing you will have to do is order her birth certificate ...

Elizabeth Holland Dec q 1905, Rochdale,  Greater Manchester, Lancashire
vol 8e p 50

That will then give us her parents names and occupation and we will be able to search from there .

BTW ; who were her husband's parents ... do you have any other info eg; marriage cert etc?

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 14:44 BST (UK)
yes I do have the marriage record for Elizabeth, she married a Richard Richardson (1900) in Houghton le Spring - (1919), I know that only makes her 14 but the story goes that Richard and Elizabeth were expelled from the house as she was pregnant. His parents were Richard Richardson abt 1873 and Bessie (could be Surtees but not sure) abt 1874, I have sent for an applicaction form to apply for a birth certificate and I hope that will get thing going at a slightly quicker pace, my only worry is that i've been told that not all travellers are regestered in the B.M.D or census, and I have no clue about where to look next for Elizabeths family!???  Jo x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 14:49 BST (UK)
Hi Jo

Does she state her father's name/occupation on the marriage cert?

You say you have sent for an application form ... you can order her birth cert online :)

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 15:00 BST (UK)
Hi Deb
You can't see the name of her Father on the Certificate as it is the origional one and has seen better days ???,
 I have however applied for a new one which should be here shortly and yes I know I haven't caught up to the 21st century lol but I don't have a credit card and i must do thing the old fashioned way - by post ;D
Jo x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 15:13 BST (UK)
ahhhhhh okay  ;D

I have been searching for travelling Hollands in 1901 in Lancashire and durham ...no luck yet ....

I think we have to be patient and wait for the certs ...at least then we will be following the correct family. I know it's hard to sit and wait .... :-\ but hang in there !  :)

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 15:16 BST (UK)
Thanx Deb,
I'll let you know as soon as I do! - Jo x :-\
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 15:41 BST (UK)
hi jo

woooohoooooooooooooooooooo

I have found a submitted entry on IGI ...unbelievable  :o :o

Elizabeth Holland
1905   Rochdale, Lancashire
parents;
Thomas Holland and Sarah Alice Brierley

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 15:46 BST (UK)
marriage

Thomas Holland = Sarah Ann Brierley
Mar q 1897  Rochdale 
vol 8e p 108

I will try to find them in 1901

deb  ;D :D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 15:51 BST (UK)
1901
2 Back Street, Rochdale
Thomas Holland head mar slaters labourer retired b Rochdale
Sarah wife 30
Edith dau 4
Annie dau 2
Alice dau 1
all born Rochdale.

I will search further. added ... not sure if they were travellers  :-\

deb

Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 15:52 BST (UK)
 :o

aha relatives woo hoo

icould kiss you :-*
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 16:07 BST (UK)
 ;D

Jo ...hopefully the birth and marriage cert will confirm all of this info !

1891
123 Entwistle rd, Wardleworth, Rochdale
Asa H Holland head mar 45 iron twiner b Oldham
Ellen H wife 51
Edmund f son 22 fitter A (apprentice?)
Richard son 21     "
THOMAS son 19 maker up cotton
Betty dau 16 servant at home
James son 15 apprentice joiner
all born Rochdale

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 05 October 08 16:10 BST (UK)
thanx Deb can't wait for the marriage cert to get here so i can check this is really exciting you've been marvelous ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 16:15 BST (UK)
Hi Jo

I have checked back in the censuses and there seems to be no sign that they were travellers  :-\

Asa H Holland = Asa Holt Holland ... he is very easy to trace back ...maybe other relatives were travellers or maybe Elizabeth's mum and dad became travellers after 1901 ...not sure.

the Holland's are a big gypsy family ...hopefully we can link you up with them.

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 05 October 08 16:47 BST (UK)
hi again Jo

Seems that Asa Holt Holland (your gr grandmother's granddad) was born out of wedlock ...I am thinking that his dad must have been a MR. Holt  :)

In 1851 he is with his mum Sarah Ann Holland, b 1825 London, and has his name as Esau Holt Holland. By 1861 he has a sister name Lydia(10) and has his granny living with him , Elizabeth. Sarah Ann, the mum,  is still unmarried.

I wish the certs were already in your hands ,,,, :-\ ::)

deb :)

ps ...if this is the right family Asa Holt Holland would be your gr gr gr grandad, Sarah Ann = gggg grandmother, Elizabeth = ggggg grandmother  ;D ;D :o
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Friday 17 October 08 15:15 BST (UK)
the marriage cert finally came and now i'm puzzed?????? ??? Elizabeths Father is called James? so its back to trawling the records for me lol x x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Monday 20 October 08 23:03 BST (UK)
Hi

Only just got your reply  :-\ sorry for the delay on getting back with you.

What was Elizabeth age on marriage and what was James, her father, his occupation?

Has her birth cert arrived yet?  :-\

I'm really upset that we had the wrong family   ::)...oh well we'll try again.

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Friday 24 October 08 18:21 BST (UK)
Right I've done some digging and there are two births registered in 1905 DEC q 1 in rochdale and 1 in chorley, also from a lovely lady on GR is a descendant of Thomas and Sarah and she thinks Thomas' Brother James had a daughter named Elizabeth and is 1 of the above but can't say which also my mother reckons she can definitely remember her uncle tom who was Elizabeth's brother so thats a bit more info at least lol

I have not sent for the cert yet as I cannot decide which 1 to send for unless I get a solid lead I'll be flipping a coin lol x x Jo x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Friday 24 October 08 18:23 BST (UK)
this is all of the information on the marriage cert.
11.12.1919
Richard Clementson Richardson age 19 years - Bachelor - coal miner - residing at 5 sedgeletch, Newbottle - fathers name, Richard Richardson - Coal miner

Elizabeth Holland age 18 years - spinster - residing at 5 sedgeletch, Newbottle - fathers name, James Holland - coal miner

witness' were Margaret Jane Stood and Joseph Richardson

Marriage was solemnized at the register office in the district of Houghton le Spring in the county of Durham
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 14:14 BST (UK)
if your hollands come anywhere near wiltshire/somerset/devon/etc., let me know and i will help as my hollands are all west country.  hi ya cousin debs?you doing okay?love cathayb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 17:59 BST (UK)
I have no clue where the Hollands will take me as Elizabeth is the first Holland in my family tree (working back) and the only facts I know is that she married Richard Richardson and her father is James Holland, I may be in need of a trip to the archives lol :-\

Jo x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 18:19 BST (UK)
well the only richardsons i have married into the jeff family.again get back to me if it develops my way.cathayb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 18:50 BST (UK)
Hi Jo and cousin Cathay  ;D

I wonder if Uncle Tom was older or younger than Elizabeth ...? I have looked for a Thomas/Tom Holland with dad James ...no luck at the moment.

So was Elizabeth b in Lancashire but married in Durham?

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 19:11 BST (UK)
well the story goes (and don't hold me to this as my mothers memory is not reliable lol) Elizabeth was put to work as a servant in the Richardson household when she was 12 and the son Richard had been having a "thing" with her from the off so I don't know if she was born in Lancashire or Durham but my mother never met Elizabeths parents nor does she remember them being mentioned. But a Lancashire accent was remembered.

my mother can remember Elizabeth dying around the time she was leaving school and my mothers sister Gloria was only 2 so I seached the death records and the nearest I got was 1969 jun Q 1a 2321 sunderland - and this record clearly states the bith date 25 se 1905 which brings me to the conclusion of either Rochdale or Chorley.

I know i'm a nuisance but I can't seem to focus on the rest of my tree until I sort her out, if I could go back in time I'd say "don't be so elusive WOMAN!" lol

I've got to say thanx again for helping me, I'm very new to this and you've been great Deb

love Jo x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 19:22 BST (UK)
Please be sure to visit the HOLLAND Web Ring at the end of this page.
If you have a HOLLAND web site please consider joining the Web Ring.
Or, leave your family details in my Guest Book
for other HOLLAND researchers to read and respond to.

The Holland Family History
John Rothwell born in Clifton Lancashire in 1906, had a sad early childhood due to his father Thomas and mother Prudence passing away when he was just 8 years old.
After getting through the 'difficult years' with the help of a family about whom I know nothing more but their name - Kavanagh - John Rothwell was to meet a young lady who changed his life -

Mary Holland

of Swinton

 
 

Mary Holland - aged 17 - photograph taken August 1923
Daughter of George Holland & Elizabeth Woodward
This is the story of the Holland family from Wellington, Shropshire and later Swinton

 
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 19:33 BST (UK)
John S. Holland’s Genealogy  The ancestors of John Holland. ... Here The Lancashire Hollands contradicts itself. A family tree of the “Hollands of Denton and Heaton” on p. ...
www.jochanan.com/gen/johngen.html - 59k - Cached - Similar pages
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 19:38 BST (UK)
For census records for Lancashire, see
Lancashire Census pre-1841
Lancashire 1841 Census
Lancashire 1851 Census
Lancashire 1861 Census
Lancashire 1901 Census    I DONT EXPECT I AM BEING ANY HELP AT ALL.BUT THERE ARE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF HOLLANDS AROUND LANCASHIRE!!I JUST THOUGHT I HAD A FEW YOU MIGHT LIKE TO BROWSE IN THE HOPE OF FINDING YOURS.CATHAYB
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 19:47 BST (UK)
thanx cathayb you've given me things to check so you are being helpful lol, I feel so useless, I'm usually never a person who would ask for help but like I say this Woman  has me stumped and any Holland info that could potentially lead me to my  Grt Grandmother is a big help so thankyou very much

love Jo x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 20:47 BST (UK)
hi again

 ;D

okay so it seems that Elizabeth lied about her age on the marriage cert ...she says 18 at the 1919 marriage ...or maybe she didn't  :-\

I wonder who Margaret Jane Stood , the witness was ... maybe Elizabeth's sister ... Blimey I think we need the 1911 census right now!!! ;D

It's so frustrating when we can't even get passed the 1901 census ...arrghhhh

Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 20:51 BST (UK)
also from a lovely lady on GR is a descendant of Thomas and Sarah and she thinks Thomas' Brother James had a daughter named Elizabeth and is 1 of the above but can't say which also my mother reckons she can definitely remember her uncle tom who was Elizabeth's brother so thats a bit more info at least lol



Jo ...tell us more about Thomas who had the brother James...if we can find Thomas , hopefully we can find James , Elizabeth's coal mining dad !

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 20:53 BST (UK)
Thomas is the guy you found on igi this lady (Linda) is a direct decendant and reckons Thomas didn't have a daught named Elizabeth but his brother James did
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 20:58 BST (UK)
but then again from looking at her tree I can see that she has James down as a joiner in 1901 but that was before elizabeth was born perhaps he changed proffession???

from what i am told the IGI make quite a few mistakes like this :-\ ??? >:(
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 21:02 BST (UK)
ooooo jo

okay ...this doesn't make sense

we have this from IGI ..
Elizabeth Holland
1905   Rochdale, Lancashire
parents;
Thomas Holland and Sarah Alice Brierley

This is a submitted entry ...so someone has seen the record and transcribed it correctly or incorrectly.

Linda says that Thomas and Sarah did NOT have an Elizabeth ...so  errr ummmm

okay we have to rethink this one ...

talking to myself ...

Thomas who married Sarah Ann Brierley , had a brother called James

from 1891 posted earlier we have ;
1891
123 Entwistle rd, Wardleworth, Rochdale
Asa H Holland head mar 45 iron twiner b Oldham
Ellen H wife 51
Edmund f son 22 fitter A (apprentice?)
Richard son 21     "
THOMAS son 19 maker up cotton
Betty dau 16 servant at home
James son 15 apprentice joiner
all born Rochdale

so is the above james ..Elizabeth's dad??

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 21:05 BST (UK)
bear in mind if she was illigtamate she may have made up a name for her dad.if she was a traveller they often tell all sorts of fibs.i just had a cert where i know the fathers surname is srange but the girl says it is duckett.!makes our job all the harder!!!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 21:06 BST (UK)
being ignorant here ,,,but is there coal mining in Durham?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 21:07 BST (UK)
Hi Cous ...nice to see you back  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 21:14 BST (UK)
It could be, Linda has no clue which out of the dec Q 1905 this is either though, but she is certain it is one of them yet she has no record of marriage for elizabeth or children where I have so it could be that i'm barking up the wrong tree entirely :-\ ???

there were an abundance of mining work in durham but I wouldn't know how to research if he worked in durham :-[

also I had thought that if she lied about her age what else did she lie about (her dad maby?)

Jo x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 21:23 BST (UK)
ok I just got off the phone with Mam, she says her Uncle Jack is still alive and would know everything I want to know ( Jack is - John Richardson, Elizabeth and Richard's son) she says he is a vicar, is there any way of finding vicars??????
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 21:34 BST (UK)
yes there is?but i am blowed if i can remember.have you any idea where he lives?then look for churches (anglican )if he is a vicar.in the area.most churches have a web site now and you will find his name and address on the web. yes i couldnt keep away long could i debs?i am trying not to do so much though.i got flu at the moment.my website is growing too.havent seen you on there lately?hows your sisters eyes.?yes coal mining is rife in durham or rather was.one of our birches went up there and married a coal miners daughter.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 22:02 BST (UK)
I'm afraid my Mam's a bit ill and not everything makes sense but she likes to talk about when she was little and when i can get her talking about that alot is actual memories but still can't be relied upon......she has no clue where he lives now only that he visited nana (Elizabeth) once a week on a tuesday so unless there is a way to look up vicars i'm still stuck - by the by I have no clue what religion he is as when my mother talks about her childhood it's like she becomes the child and to a child every1 with a dog collar is a vicar lol................i'm in a pickle aren't I? lol :-\
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 22:14 BST (UK)
 ;D

Okay ..... so we have this submitted entry re; Elizabeth b 1905, Rochdale d/o Thomas and sarah ... Linda is a direct rellie of these two and  says there is no Elizabeth , in her tree....

someone had to have seen this entry in order to have submitted it ... also there is a marriage to confirm that Thomas Holland married a Sarah Ann Brierley. Sometimes IGI submitted entried can be wrong ..but it seems that this entry has a lot of detail ....

okay if Elizabeth was kinda ostracised from the family for having a relationship with the Richardson boy when she was 14  , then maybe Linda didn't know about her.

Also by going backwards in time re;Thomas and james Hollands family ...see previous post, there doesn't seem to be a coal miner /traveller/gypsy among them ....

arrghhh .... I think we need to rethink all of this ....

deb

ps Cathay ...sorry you are sick ...wish I could be there to make you a cup of tea  LOL 
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 22:19 BST (UK)
When does the 1911 cencus come out any ideas???? I am demented, also is it true after 2011 the 100 year rule is to be abolished and we can all cencus' whenever we want? ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 22:32 BST (UK)
I have heard that 1911 is coming out in 2009 ...no idea when   ::)

Not sure about the other cenuses ...and not sure if they have all been transcibed ...must be a huge job!

I think there is something to this IGI entry ...what if James did have Elizabeth but he asked Thomas and sarah to look after her and  make her their own ...arrghhh I am running out of ideas ...

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 22:33 BST (UK)
just had a thought :o

i'm not sure if mam was getting at Elizabeth being left at the Richardson household when she was 12 and lived there which would make something else she said make sense........ok mam once told me that Elizabeth was brought up by her Grandmother Bessie Surtees......now Richards 1901 cencus says that his mother was called Bessie...... so maby Richards parents brought her up..........maby she couln't remember her real parents??? ??? or Maby she was just a big fibber lol ::) i'll try to look up that wittness and see if I can go somewhere from there,

Jo x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 22:34 BST (UK)
Jo what about the old telephone books for Vicar Richardson ...they are on ancestry ...

we seemed to have crossed in cyberspace ...will read your post now

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 25 October 08 22:58 BST (UK)
just had a thought :o

i'm not sure if mam was getting at Elizabeth being left at the Richardson household when she was 12 and lived there which would make something else she said make sense........ok mam once told me that Elizabeth was brought up by her Grandmother Bessie Surtees......now Richards 1901 cencus says that his mother was called Bessie...... so maby Richards parents brought her up..........maby she couln't remember her real parents??? ??? or Maby she was just a big fibber lol ::) i'll try to look up that wittness and see if I can go somewhere from there,

Jo x x x

okay
 
richard Richardson = Elizabeth Surtees in 1892 Houghton Le Spring  Durham (parents of Richard bc 1900)... if Elizabeth Holland went to live with them when she was 12 ...that would = her with them 18917 ...surely she would have know her parents at that age


Also Elizabeth/Bessie Surtees would have been her grandmother mother in law and not her grandmother
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 23:07 BST (UK)
and maby my mother is just nuts lol ;D ??? :-\ it seems Elizabeth is 1 big mystery before she gets married then after that I know every thing I'm seeing numbers now lol i'm going to have 5 minute break x x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Saturday 25 October 08 23:08 BST (UK)
what is the name of the Vicar?.any birth dates,did he marry.anything at all you know about him.i will try and find him for you tomorrow.cathay
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 25 October 08 23:18 BST (UK)
I know his name is John Richardson he was born in Houghton between 1919 and 1936 (the only record that remotely resembles him is John S Richardson mothers maiden name Harland 1924 mar q 10a 1002) - he married a lady named Olwyn I have no clue what her maiden name is and no clue if he had children

Sorry I know this info is lack but you can see how stuck I am...I never knew this side of my family at all so I have to rely on the ramblings of my mother
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: cathayb on Sunday 26 October 08 10:00 GMT (UK)
sorry to be so thick but do you know where houghton is?i am hopeless on geography.cathay
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 26 October 08 12:44 GMT (UK)
it used to be on the outskirts of Durham until the Tyne and Wear thing came about Its full name is Houghton le Spring

there is a map on Yell.com
http://maps.yell.com/client/yell/
qs=durham&panel=business&sem=g&cam=sem_maps

Jo x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 26 October 08 13:56 GMT (UK)
Morning all

Did some looking at births and found these possible children of Richard Richardson and Elizabeth Holland ...do the names ring any bells, Jo?

Thomas C Richardson
Oct q 1919
Mother's Maiden Name: Holland 
Houghton Le Spring  Durham 
Vol 10a  p 1232

Marriage date was 11.12.1919...so thomas being born in the same quarter as marriage adds up to her being already pregnant...also I wonder in the middle initial 'C' adds up to Clementson?


Mona Richardson
sept q 1821
Mother's Maiden Name: Holland  
Houghton Le Spring   Durham 
vol10a p 1136

can't find a John

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 26 October 08 14:13 GMT (UK)
yes the thomas clementson Richardson is right and THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU ;D you've found Mona :o I've searched for her and just thought she was make believe (from mam) :-\ aparently she died very young :'(......this is great the others are

Leonard A Richardson 1936
Brian Richarsdon 1934
Alan Richardson 1933
Sheila Richardson 1931 (my nana)
June Richardson 1929

and other than Mona I could never find >:(
William/Billy Richardson
John Richardson - apart from that Harland one
Matthew Richardson

I do however know that Thomas was the oldest and Leonard was the Youngest  oooooh its getting exciting again ;D ;D ;D
and they were all born in houghton as Elizabeth died in the same house she lived in at the time of marriage

I'm over the moon you've found Mona Thanx so much
love Jo x x x x x x x x ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 26 October 08 14:23 GMT (UK)
ooo YIPPEEEEE ...so Mona was real .... can't see a death at the moment ...will look for the others

deb  ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 26 October 08 14:37 GMT (UK)
Jo

If we look at the DOBs there is a big gap between Mona b 1921 and June 1929... I think we should look through complete birth index during those years first...

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 26 October 08 16:25 GMT (UK)
ooo YIPPEEEEE ...so Mona was real .... can't see a death at the moment ...will look for the others

deb  ;D


She died in 1933 aged 11
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 26 October 08 19:24 GMT (UK)
ooo yipppeee

found Matthew in complete index

Matthew W Richardson
Sept q 1828
MMN = HOLLAND
Houghton
vol 10a p 816

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Sunday 26 October 08 23:22 GMT (UK)
That is BRILL!!!! ;D

I was having a hard tim with him as I can remember him when I was little and really liked him, he alway had a horse with him and used to take me out riding......when I couldn't find a record for him I went to see where he was buried for info from a stone but I scowered the entire cemetery and couldn't find him I think he must not have a stone which is really sad :'(

I may need to ask the civic center if they have a burial record and I may just buy him one! :)

so there is just John and William/Billy to find and after that I must get back to searching for info on Elizabeth/James

By the by I just found out Mona had Menengitis :'(
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Monday 27 October 08 01:05 GMT (UK)
I have looked for John/Jack up to 1930 ...nothing yet!

Did Matthew have family? Do you know of them? Someone must have some clues .... Wonder if his middle initial stands for something other than say William or Wilfred  or err other 'w' names LOL  ;D 

BTW ...do you have any death certs that may give us who registered them etc?

deb :)

awe ...poor Mona  :-\ :'(


Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Monday 27 October 08 01:18 GMT (UK)
The only death cert I have is the 1 for my Nana  and as for Matthew, I think he was married once and may have had a daughter but if he did they disowned him - he had a roving eye - so I don't know who would have been the informant, i'm trying to remember if he died before or after aunty june..........thinking................if it was before it would have been aunty june but if after i don't know and June couldn't affored a stone as Junes kids made hers lol :)

the only family i'm in touch with are Junes family and i've already interregated them lol ;D they know less than me ???

If i could find this vicar I think i'd learn alot more
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Monday 27 October 08 02:03 GMT (UK)
Jo

what was the address that Elizabeth Holland Richardson lived at all her married life?

deb

added ...oops sorry ... you had mentioned it before on marriage cert  ...
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: Harris in Essex on Monday 27 October 08 10:13 GMT (UK)
In case you don't have the details of Mona's death aged 11 years  it is 1933 Q4 Sunderland 10a page 538.   
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: Harris in Essex on Monday 27 October 08 11:39 GMT (UK)
Details of the births
Mona Richardson 1921 Q3 Houghton 10a page 1136
Matthew W Richardson 1928 Q3 Houghton 10 page 816
June D M Richardson 1929 Q3 Houghton 10a page 810
Sheila Richardson 1931 (my nana)  Q4 Houghton 10a page 708
Alan Richardson 1933 Q1 Houghton 10a page 724
Brian Richarsdon 1934 Q2 Houghton 10a page 746
Leonard A Richardson 1936 Q1 Houghton 10a page 663


William/Billy Richardson (there is a William Richardson 1925 Q2 Houghton 10a page 1069 but the MMN is given as Statton. It may be worth checking to see this hasn't been mistranscribed??
John Richardson - apart from that Harland one ( I have found a John Richardson 1920 Q4 Houghton 10a page 1066 but the MMN is Winlow?? also John W C 1923 Q2 Houghton 10a page 1051 but the MMN is Coulthard??  John S 1924 Q1 Houghton 10 page 1002 MMN Harland?? John 1924 Q3 Houghton 10a page 1043 MMN Stockdale??  John D 1925 Q3 Houghton 10a page 931 MMN Walkinshaw??  John W L 1927Q2 Houghton 10a page 901 MMN Peel??  Seems John Richardson is a popular name in Houghton!!!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: Harris in Essex on Monday 27 October 08 11:41 GMT (UK)
There seems to be a big gap 1921 - 28 in the births, then very regular,  is there any explanation do you think??
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Monday 27 October 08 12:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Harris in Essex

Welcome to Rootschat and this thread ....

I am thinking that William/Billy and John/Jack must have been born during the'big gap' period. I will have another look at the complete index later this morning.

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: Harris in Essex on Monday 27 October 08 17:17 GMT (UK)
 :)
Hi Deb in USA

I have had a good look but can only come up with those I have listed none with MMN Holland .... good luck!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Monday 27 October 08 19:12 GMT (UK)
ok I think it may be a waist of time looking for uncle Billy as i've had a really confusing phone call today ???

I was talking to my Aunt Libby (June's daughter) to see if I'd missed any thing and she said "I'll see uncle Billy and see what he can remember" I had no clue who this was so i asked who uncle Billy was and she said Billy Fernavel?

The puzzle is that my mother said uncle Billy Married Irene Fernival ???

It could be a different Billy or Fernaval could be Irenes married name or Billy could have took Irenes sur name But my family do strange thing with their names

eg.  June Richardson married Thomas Ramshaw and Matthew Richardson (Junes brother) liked to be known as Matty Ramshaw ??? ??? ???

yes I know I have the strangest family I know lol :-\ ;D

added.......I just realized I spelled Fernival three different ways lol ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 28 October 08 11:14 GMT (UK)
Hi and good morning

Well ...talk about interesting ...my heart jumped when I saw the Furnival name because I have come across it when searching for children with the MMN = Holland ....

I wonder if Elizabeth had a sister as I see these births ...which of course may add to the confusion  ;D 8)

James E Furneval
jun q 1920 
MMN = Holland 
Houghton Le Spring 
 10a  1335

Margaret H Furneval
Mar q  1923 
MMN=  Holland 
 Houghton Le Spring 
 10a  984

Hugh Furnevel
Jun q 1925 
MMN= Holland 
Houghton Le Spring 
10a  1015 

Lavinia A Furnevel
mar q  1927 
MMN =  Holland 
 Houghton Le Spring 
 10a  913 


Louis Furnevel
dec q 1921 
MMN = Holland 
Houghton Le Spring
 10a  1058
 

This seems to be the parents of the above  children:

Lavina Holland = Hugh Furneval
dec q 1919
Spouse's Surname: Furnevel 
 Houghton Le Spring 
Vol 10a p 1279 

So your aunty remembers a Furneval name ...could it be that Lavinia is Elizabeth's sister.??

I will look for a Lavinia with dad James ...

deb :)



Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 28 October 08 11:45 GMT (UK)
I have found this family in 1901 ... :-\

Lancashire
New York Street
James Holland head mar 49 COAL MINER / Hewer b Lancashire St Helens
Maria wife 47
Sarah dau 19
Elizabeth dau 14
James son 12
Moses son 10
Maria 8
Ada 6
John 2
all born St Helens

arrghhh

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Tuesday 28 October 08 11:49 GMT (UK)
oooh well that puts a new spin on things :D

I'm Trying to Look For a Fernavel marriage Between Billy and Irene Because my Mam is adament that aunty Irene was a Fernavel before she married uncle Billy

Also you might be right about Lavinia being a sister because Aunty Irene was "Aunty Irene" before she married uncle Billy :-\

Seems they were cousins,.......I'll keep looking see what I come up with ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 28 October 08 12:09 GMT (UK)
 :)

okay to recap ..Elizabeth was bc 1905 in Lancashire., d/o James a coal miner

I have found a Lavinia Holland bc 1897 Wigan Lancashire with a dad James Holland a coal miner in 1901 census.....just thinking out loud ...
This Lavinia has a brother named Peter Holland ....also born Wigan circa 1899.
Found a marriage of a Peter Holland to Annie Johnson in 1919 Houghton Le Spring ...but then if I check the 1901 census again ..I cannot find a Peter Holland born in Durham at all .

So did the Holland Children leave Lancs and all go to Durham to get married ...or am I going completely off track ... trying to think out the box ...hee hee.

Hope you understand my ramblings.

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Tuesday 28 October 08 13:58 GMT (UK)
I have no clue about who came to Durham or When as far as i've been told  uncle Tom is the only 1 of Elizabeths family Mam can recall (at the moment she could remember anything at any time) and his wife Aunty Emmy?

but it is starting to look from where i'm sitting that Elizabeths kids and ?Fernavel kids were very close my mam didn't know who was brother sister or cousin sometimes but then again she was only a tot

I'm thinking maby Elizabeths parents might have moved up here when the kids were all young? roll on 1911 cencus lol ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Tuesday 28 October 08 19:50 GMT (UK)
ooooooohhhh!!!!!!

I have found something that looks promising from the 1901  cencus.....includes father James and son Thomas......hmm lets see

James Holland - Head - age 30 - coal miner hewer - Lanc Wigan
Margaret Holland - wife - age 37
Andrew Holland - Brother - age 18
Elizabeth Holland - sister - age 29
Annie Holland - daughter - age 1
Ruth Holland - Daughter - age  3
Sarah Holland - daughter - age 10
Thomas Holland - son - age 5
William Holland - son - age 8

all at 2 colliers yard Wigan Lancashire.......

It makes sense that Elizabeth could have been named after her aunt and there's the brother thomas,... i've got a good feeling about this 1

What do u think am I just reaching lol x :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 28 October 08 20:15 GMT (UK)
hi again

Looks good !  I think that you are going to have to take a chance and buy a birth cert ....to see if the mum matches ...at least you have her dad's name and occ ....

I wonder if we can find some marriages for the children ...hopefully in Houghton.

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Tuesday 28 October 08 20:45 GMT (UK)
Well heres what I got so far for them

Leonard Richardson - Marie Lamport GRO 1963 Dec Q vol 1a page (1245/1845)
Brian Richardson - Dorreen ? (info from mam)
Alan Richardson - Violet? (info from mam)
Sheila Richardson - Harry Sowerby (we never mention him) then Thomas Wears
June Richardson - Thomas Ramshaw
Matthew Richardson - may have married not sure
John Richardson - Olwyn? (info from mam)
William Richardson - Irene Furneval (the confusing bit)
Thomas Richardson - Dorothy (info from mam)

I have just started looking for these but its a bit daunting not knowing the maiden names lol

I'll keep looking to see what i come up with
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 28 October 08 21:30 GMT (UK)
Hi Jo

 ;D ;D ;D

I was meaning marriages of the children of the family you found in 1901 LOL

I have found this interesting one ...

you said that June Richardson married Thomas Ramshaw ....

marriage;
Thomas Holland = Mary Ramshaw
sept q 1913 
Spouse's Surname: Ramshaw 
South Shields  Durham, Tyne and Wear 
10a   1477

is this maybe Uncle Tom?

will look further

deb :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Tuesday 28 October 08 21:43 GMT (UK)
ha ha sorry i'm in a muddle again lol

hmm mam used to call Tom's wife aunty Emmy so don't know if this is it but i'll keep the record just in case

I'm gonna send for a Birth cert.....I've decided........haven't decided which 1 yet tho......Chorley or Rochdale hmmm I think I might go with..........????????

Both lol............the one thats wrong i'll give to some1 else lol
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Wednesday 29 October 08 11:47 GMT (UK)
ok I got the loan of my boyfriends credit card and ordered both certs online last night should be here in 4 days so it's time to be patient hopefully I'll have a tree to build when they get here, .......also is there somewhere I can advertise an unwanted cert as I won't be keeping the one that is wrong.......Presuming one will be right lol ::)

I'll keep u posted

Jo x x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Wednesday 29 October 08 16:46 GMT (UK)
I've just been given a great pic of Leonard Richardsons Wedding, it has Elizabeth Holland on it


From Left to right:
Brian Richardson
Mary Richardson
Ray Richardson
Elizabeth Holland
woman behind groom - Dorreen - (Brians wife)
Leonard Richardson
(baby) Sandra Richardson
Marie Lamport
Billy Richardson
June Richardson
(baby in junes arms) Libby Ramshaw
Sheila Richardson

FRONT ROW KIDS (left to right)

Thomas Wears
Keith Ramshaw
Jack Ramshaw
Thomas Ramshaw
Alan Richardson jnr
Brian Richardson jnr
Glen Richardson
Sheila Wears

I'm so excited about this, it's the only photo i've seen of Elizabeth, I just had to share.....and now at least I know Billy is real lol x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: Harris in Essex on Thursday 30 October 08 08:58 GMT (UK)
Hi

You can put unwanted certficates on http://www.bmdshare.com/.  Also several of the family tree magazines have sections for unwanted ones.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 30 October 08 10:55 GMT (UK)
hi

 :D  Great photo!!!!

Keep us posted on the certs ...

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Wednesday 05 November 08 16:44 GMT (UK)
O.K I am officially STRESSED and CONFUSED  ??? >:( ???

Certs came back, I rushed to the kettle and made a cuppa to settle down and be in the know.....I would now know the name of Elizabeths Mother......WRONG :(

Both certs are not my Elizabeth,

Info from first cert: DOB 20.11.05, Father Edmund Fletcher Holland, Mother Clara Howaith Holland formerly Rhodes, Fathers occupation Iron Fitter, Reg district Rochdale

Info from second cert: DOB 23.09.05, Father Thomas Holland, Mother Agnes Holland formerly Fisher, Fathers occupation General labourer, Reg district Chorley

The 1 I was looking for has the date of birth 25.09.05 as shown on death record GRO 1969 Jun Q vol 1a page 2321

So now I am more stuck with this woman than when I started.

I'm gonna have a think and come back later..I may have had an epiphany or not

love Jo x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Friday 07 November 08 17:36 GMT (UK)
I've been doing some thinking and i reckon a couple of things may be the cause of my confusion.......

1st. If we discard what my mother says this means Elizabeth WAS in fact 18 when she married

2nd. If the story had ran through the family that Elizabeth was only 14 when she married, the informant at the time of death could have given the wrong date of birth

3rd. she may not have even been registered

NOW THE FACTS

1. Elizabeth Married Richard in 1919 at Houghton
2. She had at least 8 children
3. Her marriage cert says James is her Father
4. Most of her children were Christened (so she had to have been at one point)

I have found a few possibities using the information above but nothing solid........

I'm gonna do another tree on a different site and see if this turns up any family members who are useful

keep in touch

Jo x x x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Friday 07 November 08 19:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Jo

How disappointing ....  :-\ :( :(

Is there anyone else you could ask to find out there whereabouts of 'uncle' Jack?


ok I just got off the phone with Mam, she says her Uncle Jack is still alive and would know everything I want to know ( Jack is - John Richardson, Elizabeth and Richard's son) she says he is a vicar, is there any way of finding vicars??????

Also ..who was the informant at her death?

Does your mother know if Jack, the vicar, had children? you also have the photo of Elizabeth Holland at the wedding of Leonard Richardson ... is there anyway of getting hold of these people? Someone must know something!!

will keep on thinking  ::)

deb

 
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Friday 14 November 08 17:05 GMT (UK)
I have found something interesting not really info on Elizabeth but potentially one of her children

Birth Joseph E Richardson mmn Holland Houghton 1930 Sep Q 10a 870

Death Joseph E Richardson age 0 Houghton 1930 Sep Q 10a 425

I'm also have an idea that Elizabeth was born in houghton as well maby 1903???? and her Father James was from west Rainton (near houghton) and I think the accent may not have been lancashire but irish........(the James i'm thinking ofs Father Owen was Irish)

Well this is asumption I will have to prove it but I can't let it go so I'm gonna keep busy at it

I'll keep this thread posted as i find info

Jo x
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 21 March 09 22:54 GMT (UK)
I know this thread has been dead for some time but i just had to say I FOUND HER ;D ok so this is my great grandmother lol

Elizabeth Holland G.R.O reference for birth cert. 1903 Dec, Q. vol 10a page 507

her parents were James Holland and Elizabeth Melling marriage G.R.O 1883 Wigan Dec Q vol 8c page 91

they are on the 1901 census living in wigan and on the 1911 census living in new herrington houghton le spring

James and Elizabeth had 13 kids :o

James c1885
William Robert c 1888
Annie c 1890
John c 1892
Charles c 1894
Henry (Harry) c 1895
Lavinia c 1897
Peter c 1899
Alice c 1900
Mary c 1902
Elizabeth 1903
Thomas c 1907
Samuel c 1909

Elizabeth Melling died in 1910 (probably worn out from being preggarz her whole life lol) Death G.R.O 1910 Houghton Dec Q vol 10a page 277

and that all i got so far but at least i got something to work with now woo hoo

and yes we've come across these ppl before :-\
:)

okay to recap ..Elizabeth was bc 1905 in Lancashire., d/o James a coal miner

I have found a Lavinia Holland bc 1897 Wigan Lancashire with a dad James Holland a coal miner in 1901 census.....just thinking out loud ...
This Lavinia has a brother named Peter Holland ....also born Wigan circa 1899.
Found a marriage of a Peter Holland to Annie Johnson in 1919 Houghton Le Spring ...but then if I check the 1901 census again ..I cannot find a Peter Holland born in Durham at all .

So did the Holland Children leave Lancs and all go to Durham to get married ...or am I going completely off track ... trying to think out the box ...hee hee.

Hope you understand my ramblings.

deb

Jo x ;D :D ;) :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Saturday 21 March 09 23:04 GMT (UK)
oh and uncle Jack is alive i found him and visited him in a care home he has severe alsiemas (dodgy spelling) and can bearly function is was horrific i didn't even ask him any questions because he thought i was his mother (Elizabeth Holland) so i just sat with him and gave him lots of cuddles :'(
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 25 March 09 17:34 GMT (UK)
Hi Jo

So glad for you! How exciting.  ;D ;D

I had to reread this thread to remember what we had done  :P I think Finding Lavinia Holland married to the Furneval chap made the difference as well.

Have you searched further back, now that you have the info?

 :D :D

deb
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland
Post by: jojojnr on Wednesday 25 March 09 17:57 GMT (UK)
I'm getting there so far i've got James Holland (1865) with these siblings
Mary Holland c1856
William Augustus Holland 1860-1923
John Holland c1864
Isabella Holland c1866-1904
Catherine Holland c1870
Hannah Holland 1871-1940
Ellen Holland 1872-1954
Charles Holland c1874
Sarah Holland c1878

with parents
James Holland 1834-1912
Ann Harmer 1834-1908

i think i'll be kept busy for a while now so thanx again for all your help and if i get stuck again your fresh eyes will be the first i turn to lol

Jo x :D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: ttwood49 on Sunday 09 August 09 17:08 BST (UK)

Hello Jo

I was just searching the web to see if I could connect to any relatives and discovered that some of my Holland family from Wigan relocated to New Herrington, Durham.

I rarely use this forum to communicate so I hope you see this message.

Please get back to me so that we can discuss our holland family a bit.

Tom

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: ttwood49 on Wednesday 12 August 09 23:16 BST (UK)


Can anyone explain how to contact someone on this list? I know I have common ancestors with JoJoJnr but do not know how to get in touch with her.

How can I send a personal message?

Tom
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: jaytoot on Thursday 13 August 09 08:54 BST (UK)
Tom

clik on this link and there is a good explanation of messages.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,327529.0.html

Jim
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: ttwood49 on Thursday 13 August 09 12:07 BST (UK)

Jim,

I see there is a minimum set as to how many posts someone has to send before they can use the Personal Message feature. Maybe that is my problem since I have just started using this site.

Thanks for your input,

Tom
Title: Re: Elizabeth Holland *completed*
Post by: jaytoot on Thursday 13 August 09 12:32 BST (UK)
Ok

you have done 3 posts so you should be ok now I think.

Jim